Future Farming Programme: Small Farms

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for allowing me the opportunity to say: yes, precisely. We monitor farm incomes carefully and have data going back many years. The current area payments under the basic payment scheme are no friend of the smaller farmer: the largest 10% of farms in the country receive 50% of the money. We are trying to create a fairer system, and not only so that smaller farmers receive a fair amount. Many farmers who do not receive any—for example, 40% of sheep farmers—will have access to these funds.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Will my noble friend take this opportunity to correct the record? He inadvertently stated that tenant farmers had not complained about their status under the new schemes. If, as our honourable friend in the other place has said, legislation is required to amend the tenancy agreements, will the Government bring this forward as a matter of urgency?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for the chance to clarify my remarks made to her last month with regard to the Tenant Farmers Association. The TFA provides a constructive contribution to considerations on the letting of agricultural land and a huge input into our rollout of the new schemes. The Government are working to ensure that the design of our future farming schemes is accessible to as many farmers as possible, including tenant farmers. For example, we have designed the sustainable farming incentive scheme rules for 2022 to have shorter agreements and more flexibility to better suit tenant farmers, and we have removed the requirements to demonstrate landlord consent. We recognise that some agreements prevent farmers getting income from schemes because of restrictive clauses, and we are working with the TFA to correct that.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard - part two
Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I congratulate my noble friend Lord Robathan on stepping into the breach at such short notice and so eloquently moving Amendment 3. I will speak to Amendments 4, 6, 8 and 10 in my name, and I associate myself with earlier comments on the general thrust of this Bill put by the noble Lord, Lord Marland, in moving his Amendment 2 in the earlier group.

I share the general concern of those who are sceptical about the need for this Bill. I see it as a further onslaught on farming and livestock producers, particularly those in the uplands. I yield to no one in my praise and admiration for the way they go out in all weathers to produce lambs and suckler cattle at this time of year and, especially, in the spring. We are conscious of the fact that, in the north-east of England, there are some 12,000 people without electricity; presumably, the farmers are having to milk the cows by hand, which, of course, takes a lot longer than would normally be the case by other means.

As I mentioned earlier, I would prefer that we keep to the basics of the manifesto. I have now had a chance to reacquaint myself with Article 13, which states:

“In formulating and implementing the Union’s agriculture, fisheries, transport, internal market, research and technological development and space policies, the Union and the Member States shall, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals.”


This neatly makes the case for the main thrust of my argument—the reason why Clause 1 is not required is that it is adequately covered by Article 13. I look forward to hearing a strong argument and reassurance from my noble friend the Minister as to why that should not be the case.

I echo the remarks of my noble friend Lord Marland; it would seem that the Government are drifting away from supporting farming, maintaining self-sufficiency in our food production and our high standards of food production. However, through this Bill, the subsequent regulations and, no doubt, the advice of the committee being set up by Clause 1, we are actually making life much more difficult, in particular for livestock producers. I put on record my regret for that, particularly with respect to tenant farmers—and 48% of farmers in north Yorkshire fall into that category.

In speaking specifically to my Amendments 4, 6, 8 and 10, I refer to the earlier arguments put by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and pay tribute to the work done by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, in private practice on what constitutes “an act” for the purpose of judicial review. I humbly submit to my noble friend the Minister that the animal sentience committee’s terms of reference—a final draft of which was sent to us on 17 November 2021—will indeed constitute an act that would be justiciable as regards a judicial review. Is there a strong reason why that would not be the case?

In Committee, when I moved similar amendments, I did not obtain the reassurances from the Minister that I sought at that stage. He argued that he did not want to put on the face of the Bill the length of time for an appointment. I argue in my Amendment 4 that appointments under Clause 1 should be

“for a period of three years”.

I argue in Amendment 6:

“The membership of the Committee is to include, amongst others … a veterinary surgeon; … an active farmer or person with knowledge of livestock production or land management; and … a person with knowledge of slaughterhouses”.


Abattoirs are, if you like, the final nail in the coffin for the animal, which is sent on its way. That is my plea for more detail in the Bill.

Equally, I have set out perhaps greater detail in Amendment 8. I lifted this text from an earlier Bill—it might have been the Trade Bill, now the Trade Act, with respect to the Trade Remedies Authority. I forget which Bill it was, but I am grateful for the help that I received from the Public Bill Office in drafting the amendment. In desperation, I have also retabled Amendment 10 to leave out Clause 1 in case I do not get satisfaction and reassurance from the Minister this evening.

The Minister’s argument is flawed. If he does not wish the detail to be on the face of the Bill since this would constitute an act that is justiciable in terms of a judicial review, I argue that it was equally inappropriate to put in his letter to us of 17 November, as well as in a separate printout of the terms of reference, what the remit and constitution of the committee would be. Even though it is a separate document, that is as justiciable as it would be if it were on the face of the Bill.

I am extremely proud to have been a student of constitutional law at Edinburgh University under the excellent tutelage of Professor JDB Mitchell, who was at the time a leading expert in administrative law. I keep his book in the kitchen. My husband sometimes thinks that I am confusing administrative law theory with my recipes, which is why I often leave the cooking to him. A more up-to-date authority that I turn to is the Public Law Project, which sets out, for example, what can be challenged. It says:

“Decisions, acts, and failures to act by public bodies exercising their public functions are all potentially challengeable by judicial review.”


I must be simple in not being able to follow my noble friend’s argument but, to be absolutely clear, why is it not acceptable to put in the Bill the level of detail that I am seeking, but acceptable to put it in the supplementary documents? These are easier to amend but, in my view, because they constitute an administrative act, they will be equally justiciable.

I end with a last request to understand why, when just about every other Bill introduced by the Government since 2017 has waxed lyrical as to the composition and remit of the committee it set up, that is deemed not to be subject to judicial review, yet this is subject to judicial review. With those few remarks, I look forward very much to receiving reassurances from my noble friend the Minister.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, this is an interesting group of amendments seeking to specify the membership of the committee. The noble Lord, Lord Robathan, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, have set out the rationale for their amendments and there are some contradictions. Amendments 3 and 5 would remove the Secretary of State from the process altogether, whereas Amendment 8 would leave the power to appoint with the Secretary of State. Amendment 6 would ensure that certain levels of expertise were included in the committee’s membership.

I agree that certain skills and level of expertise are important, and can see immediately from the list that a single person can have more than one skill level and fulfil more than one function. For instance, the law currently requires that a veterinary surgeon must be present in a slaughterhouse. Therefore, he or she will have knowledge of the way a slaughterhouse operates.

However, whether such people will have time to sit on the animal sentience committee remains to be seen. A veterinary surgeon who no longer works in a slaughterhouse might do, depending on their current workload, but setting the membership in legislation could be something of a millstone around the neck of the chair or the Secretary of State, whoever is recruiting the membership.

The list of what the animal sentience committee can and cannot do under the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, is extensive and somewhat cumbersome. I believe it could be streamlined. I look forward with interest to the Minister’s response to these issues.

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their valuable scrutiny of the Bill, and the envisaged structure and operation of the animal sentience committee. I will address the points raised in turn.

I start with Amendments 3 and 5 in the name of my noble friend Lord Mancroft and ably proposed by my noble friend Lord Robathan, concerning the membership of the committee. These amendments would limit the power of the Defra Secretary of State in appointing members to the committee. We believe that the Defra Secretary of State is very well placed to be responsible for those appointments.

Defra has a long track record of recruiting expert advisers to give balanced, reasonable advice on animal welfare issues. Appointments will be decided in accordance with the Governance Code on Public Appointments, and this is important. The aim of the code is to ensure the best applicants are appointed. Anybody suitably qualified and wishing to apply would need to be assessed alongside other candidates according to a rigorous selection procedure. Applicants would, in line with best practice, be required to declare any potential conflicts of interest to the recruitment panel. Your Lordships can be reassured that the process of recruitment of members to the committee will be rigorous and that members will be chosen on the merits of their expertise. This is what is needed for the committee to perform its role.

I thank my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering for her Amendment 4, concerning term limits for members of the committee. Before I get into the meat of her point, I will say that our commitment to supporting farmers is total. I ask her to read, if she has not already, a copy of the speech made by the Secretary of State on Thursday; it sets out our commitment to support farming and farmers, particularly in the upland areas that I know I know are dear to her.

I agree with my noble friend that the committee should benefit from fresh thinking and new perspectives, but this should be balanced against the risk of unnecessary churn and loss of talent. Setting inflexible term limits could prove disruptive to the committee’s work. It would be regrettable if a member’s term ended mid-report, for example.

Additionally, we should allow some room for manoeuvre in exceptional circumstances; for example, the ongoing pandemic. This was a point well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, who may not have been referring to the pandemic, but her point was right. The pandemic disrupted recruitment to several organisations, and I would not want to take away the ability of the Secretary of State to apply short extensions to members’ terms if necessary.

We have sought to strike a sensible balance in the approach outlined in the draft terms of reference—I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for her points about that. Members would, in general, be appointed for terms of four years, renewable once. This is the standard approach for public appointments of this nature. These are the same terms on which we appoint members of other animal welfare expert bodies such as the Animal Welfare Committee and the Zoos Expert Committee. It is tried and tested.

Of course, there will be safeguards. As set out in the terms of reference, the Secretary of State reserves the right to terminate appointments if he or she considers that a committee member’s performance, attendance or conduct has been unsatisfactory, or if there is a conflict of interest which threatens the integrity of the committee. I hope my noble friend will agree that our proposed approach strikes the right balance.

I turn to Amendment 6, also in the name of my noble friend Lady McIntosh, concerning the membership of the committee. I agree with my noble friend that vets and livestock farmers have a lot to contribute when considering animal welfare. We recognise the importance of having experts with hands-on experience of working with animals on the committee. Anyone who is an expert in the fields of animal behaviour, animal welfare, neurophysiology, veterinary science, law and public administration who wished to apply would be assessed alongside other candidates via a rigorous selection procedure based on fair and open competition. We want to ensure that the committee benefits from a diversity of expertise, and we hope to encourage applications from a wide range of specialists.

That is one reason why we have sought to avoid being too prescriptive about the make-up of the committee, be that in the Bill or in the draft terms of reference. Also, the expertise required by the committee may change from time to time as the scientific understanding of the welfare needs of animals continues to evolve. It is important that the Bill leaves scope to adjust the committee’s membership as required. It is also important to avoid creating requirements in the Bill that are so specific that they lead to appropriate candidates being unable to fulfil the criteria. For these reasons, I would prefer an approach that encourages the recruitment of a diverse range of experts to the committee, rather than setting out too-rigid specifications in statute.

I turn to another amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady McIntosh, Amendment 8, concerning the governance and operation of the committee. When we last discussed this amendment, my noble friend stressed that it is

“intended to be entirely helpful”,—[Official Report, 6/7/21; col. GC 298.]

and I am grateful for the constructive suggestions that she has offered. The draft terms of reference reflect many of the points raised in the amendment. As I have said, they make provision for the Secretary of State to remove underperforming members, and they also propose term lengths and performance management procedures.

My noble friend has said that her amendment is based on the text used in the Trade Act to describe the Trade Remedies Authority. I would argue that the committee’s role and remit is very different from the authority’s, and so provisions appropriate to the latter are not necessarily suitable for this committee. For example, there is no need to create executive and non-executive classes of membership for the committee. It will be the members themselves who prepare reports, with assistance from the committee’s secretariat. There is little need to codify any delegation of functions. In the committee’s case, it is the Secretary of State who should ultimately be responsible for its good governance and effective recruitment. The draft terms of reference make this responsibility clear. I would be reluctant to dilute this accountability by delegating such responsibilities as the amendment proposes.

We have proposed an approach that makes Ministers accountable for ensuring the committee is run well, while avoiding excessive red tape. We want a timely, targeted and proportionate accountability mechanism. This requires the committee to have sufficient confidence and independence to offer meaningful scrutiny, but without conferring legal powers and responsibilities on it which are not appropriate for a body of this size and remit.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 10, also in the name of my noble friend Lady McIntosh. I understand that my noble friend and other Peers have queries regarding the need for such a committee and suggest its functions could be subsumed into the Animal Welfare Committee—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, earlier. The two committees have different roles. The animal sentience committee needs to be established in statute to provide for effective parliamentary accountability. The Animal Welfare Committee operates very effectively as a non-statutory body that provides expert advice on specific issues set out in remits issued by the Government. While both committees hold expertise in a similar area, their roles are distinct. For the legislation to require Ministers to publish a written response to a report by the committee, and to lay the response before Parliament, the committee must be referred to in the Bill. It is on this basis that the committee has a legal persona, and this role could not be undertaken by a completely non-statutory body such as the Animal Welfare Committee.

The animal sentience committee and the Animal Welfare Committee will be affiliates sitting within the animal welfare centre of excellence. We expect that, within the centre, the committee will have a particularly close working relationship with the Animal Welfare Committee. The two committees may refer issues to each other as required. However, the function to issue reports on how well central government policy decisions have taken the needs of sentient animals into account can be undertaken only by the animal sentience committee, in accordance with the parameters set out in the Bill.

I hope that I have been able to reassure noble Lords and that they will feel content not to press their amendments.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, before my noble friend sits down, he has not explained why he argued so vigorously in Committee that, if the details that are now in the terms of reference appeared in the Bill, they might be subject to judicial review. His view must be that, because they are in the terms of reference, they are not subject to judicial review. In my view, they constitute an administrative act, so how is he going to get round this and avoid judicial reviews?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

If, as my noble friend suggests, we put details in the Bill that incorporated the types of people who had to be on the committee, and then if, for example, someone were off sick or had not been appointed or for whatever reason was not available at the point at which the committee wrote a report, that would leave the Government open to a successful judicial review. These are matters that we think sit absolutely in accordance with other committees that are set up across government, where the terms of reference are amendable without having to go back to legislation. This is a fast-moving area of policy and, in future, we may feel, after thinking about it for a while, that the terms of reference need to be amended. This allows, in an entirely normal way, the Secretary of State to make those amendments in consultation with others. I do not think that it would be wise to put it in the Bill because that would increase the risk of judicial review.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard - part one
Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak after the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, although I do not entirely agree with her uncritical support of the Bill. I want particularly to support Amendment 1 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, to which I have lent my name, but also generally to support the other amendments in this group. The characteristic they have in common is that they deal with the retrospective powers of the committee—its powers to look back at existing policy and past practice—which clearly cause a degree of concern. My comments are intended to be largely helpful to the Government.

I have heard it said that the Government cannot support this amendment or the general thrust of these amendments because farming practice and husbandry practice go back decades—indeed, hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Therefore, they would say that it is impossible to look at the current situation or a change in the current situation without looking back at what it is changing or at the past. I would have a great deal of sympathy, as I think many people in the House would, with the Government if they advanced that argument. My suggestion, which I hope the Government will be able to take account of, is that an amendment could be crafted, perhaps by the Government, in response to this debate which ensured that the new animal sentience committee could look at existing and past policy only where the Government were coming forward with a specific proposal to change it—that unless there was a proposal to change it, the committee would not be able to look at current and existing policy.

I realise that is not quite the same as the amendment I have put my name to in support of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, but I do not think any of us here are trying to pin the Government down to a particular outcome—indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, said that she was generally supportive of this. We are coming together around a sort of principle, which is that the ability of this committee to roam into existing policy at will should be limited, and it should be limited in ways that keep it focused on the present and the future, rather than going into the past. If my noble friend could find a way of agreeing something along those lines, I think the force of many of the amendments in this group would fall away.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow my noble friend. I thank my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb for boosting my right-wing credentials. I think one thing the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, and I have in common is that we find ourselves a little out of kilter with our respective parties in relation to the Bill before us this evening.

I have amendments in the third group, so I would just like to put two general queries to my noble friend the Minister. I would hazard a guess that, had we had this Bill in front of us when we were both serving as shadow Ministers in the Defra team some years ago, we would have been minded not to accept what is in the Bill before us today.

I would like to associate myself with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Trees, in moving his Amendment 1. I am proud to be an associate fellow of the British Veterinary Association, and I commend him for his work in flying the flag for vets—I think he is the sole flyer of that flag in this House. He adequately addressed not just the process but the retrospectivity aspect of this amendment. Could my noble friend the Minister give us a reassurance this evening that it is not intended that the work of the committee will have any retrospective effect—that is, going back over old laws in its work—should the Bill be carried in its present form?

I would also like to associate myself with the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, and ask for what particular reason—for some reason the manifesto did not reach me this time, possibly because we are not allowed to be candidates—

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

You have never read it anyway.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I did—my noble friend teases me, but I did. I did not always agree with every single item in every single manifesto, but my understanding was that we made a manifesto pledge to roll into national law what was effectively, as has been rehearsed here this evening, set out in Article 13 of the EU treaty—which I do not think I have read either. My understanding is that that was our commitment. So I would like my noble friend the Minister, in summing up this debate, to set out for what reason it was not acceptable simple to rehearse in UK law what we had already committed to in EU law, because I believe that that would have been acceptable.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

I add for the benefit of my noble friend that the Conservative Party manifesto for the last election contained—I have looked it up—simply a pledge that

“We will bring in new laws on animal sentience.”


Nothing more was said in any detail.

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[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Moylan for that remark.

I am going to go on and query the path the Government have gone down and why aspects of the committee may be subject to judicial review in connection with this Bill, whereas every other Bill that has been put forward by this Government has not been deemed to be subject to such a judicial review. If the Minister will reassure me that there will be no retrospective effect and that we will revert, if possible, to the very limited effect of Article 13, I think it would have the unanimous support of the House today.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, these amendments broadly consider the remit of the committee regarding policy. Clause 1 sets up the committee. The stated purpose of the Bill is to make sure that animal sentience is taken into account when developing policy across government, but policy is not always set in aspic and I find it concerning that the majority of the amendments that have been put down in this group would prohibit the ASC considering policy formulated and implemented before the committee’s formation.

At the start of his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Trees, talked about unintended consequences, but we should also look at the unintended consequences of this group of amendments if they are accepted. We believe that the prohibitions that are being put forward would prevent the committee considering how the ongoing implementation of recent and historic legislation affects the welfare of animals as sentient beings. The impacts can be significant. To take an example, the primary legislation used to prosecute hare coursing is the Hunting Act 2004 and the Game Act 1831. We believe that the ASC should be free to consider how the implementation of those laws affect the welfare of hares as sentient beings. While the ASC will be likely to focus its work on emerging policy, we believe it needs the freedom to consider existing legislation where it feels it is appropriate to do so.

Amendment 18, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, would require scientific evidence to be published. It is very important that scientific evidence is taken into account right across the committee. It is clear from the terms of reference that that will be an important part of its work. But again I have concerns: requiring things to always be published before being presented to Parliament could place an unintended scientific barrier in front of the committee. I worked in publishing for many years, and I know that sometimes it can take a long time. I would not want to see the committee’s work hugely delayed as an unintended consequence of this amendment.

I will keep my comments brief throughout Report. We discussed at length in Committee many of the amendments before us again today. I do not want to waste time going back over issues that we have already spent a lot of time on, but I would be interested to hear the Minister’s response to people’s concerns.

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[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Perhaps I may press my noble friend, because I did not follow what he said about retrospectivity—or perhaps he did not say anything. Will he confirm that there is no retrospective effect? I listened very carefully to what he said about animal sentience; I hesitate to say it, but I think he is confusing animal sentience and animal welfare. I think the mood of the House is to keep Article 13 on animal sentience and let the other committee that is already set up to look after animal welfare do the perfectly good job it is already doing.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. I will not detain the House by repeating the paragraphs I have put on record in relation to the prioritising policies that the committee will look at. That will be for the current Government and the policies they are currently pursuing, and it will fulfil the committee’s statutory function under Clause 3. I went on to say—I hope this was clear—that the committee would not be doing its job properly if it sought to rake over old coals and reignite past policy issues that are now closed. My noble friend and noble Lords will know that words said by Ministers at the Dispatch Box hold sway when people try to interpret legislation. I hope I have been as clear as I possibly can be about the remit of this committee and the kinds of priorities it will look at. I hope that has reassured my noble friend.

Water: Sewage

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Wednesday 1st December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am a great admirer of Surfers Against Sewage; it, along with Members of this House and others, has strengthened the hands of those in government who wanted to see that we have proper measures against sewage outflows. As I said in reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, we will respond on the timescale as indicated, in the early part of next year. We are treating this as a matter of urgency, and we want to hold water companies to account to react quickly to the new measures we are bringing in.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm that the water industry welcomes the amendment proposed by the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, as giving it for the first time the legal basis on which to make the necessary investment? Will the Government accept that the flip side to that is the regulations to be introduced under Schedule 3 to the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, which will introduce natural flood schemes such as SUDS to prevent combined sewers overflowing? When will my noble friend bring these regulations forward?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am pleased to tell my noble friend that her hour has come. The review is due to complete by autumn 2022.

Eggs (England) Regulations 2021

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for introducing the instrument before us this afternoon, on which I have a number of questions. Paragraph 8.1 on page 2 of the Exploratory Memorandum says that:

“This instrument does not relate to withdrawal from the European Union or trigger the statement requirements under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act.”


However, it would seem that it relates entirely to our withdrawal from the European Union and the retained legislation that pertains to that. I am therefore not sure why that paragraph is there. Can the Minister clarify that please?

Paragraphs 10.4 and 10.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum refer to the consultation, which was carried out through

“the online survey Citizen Space”.

I do not know about other noble Lords, but online surveys are complete anathema to me. They do not seem a very personalised or direct form of consultation. Can my noble friend please explain to us whether this is now the way forward? Is this the Government’s consultation mode of choice? I want to place on record that I do not approve of that at all. It was also carried out on what is traditionally a holiday period—from 19 July to 16 August. I thought that consultations normally take place over a 12-week or three-month period to enable those who wish to respond in some detail to do so. This also allows the industry to talk among themselves to see whether they want only one person to respond, or everyone.

Paragraph 10.4 goes on to say that:

“The consultation targeted stakeholders from the egg sector, with close engagement with egg enforcement bodies.”


It would be interesting to know whether the six responses received match those that were actually sought. How many targeted invitations were sent out? Of those six, only one agreed to the proposal. The overwhelming majority of respondents disagreed with it,

“preferring checks to take place at the border, due to concerns that these measures should mirror the requirements for import of Class A eggs into the EU.”

I would like to know the basis on which we have moved away from the historic checks that we did at the place of import and why the Government are not carrying the industry with us.

I have to say that I am deeply unhappy that, to mitigate the concerns expressed by the vast majority of those who expressed any concerns at all, all we are going to do is to organise a round table. Clearly, we cannot amend the statutory instrument so I would be very interested to know what form the round table will take. The fact that a round table is going to be convened demonstrates that there are widespread concerns in the industry. I would be very interested to know who from the department will attend the round table. Will it be at ministerial level or official-only level?

I pay tribute to the report produced by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, and refer to the committee’s thoughts on page 12 and in Appendix 4 on page 32. It appears that there are going to be two different types of checks in relation to GB to Northern Ireland. There will be checks at the border to ensure that the consignment contains either class A or B eggs, as at present. However, all eggs from Northern Ireland will continue to have unfettered access to the UK market. There is clearly a discrepancy there.

Finally—I had better stop because I could spend the whole of the afternoon on this one little instrument—my noble friend said in his introductory remarks, if I heard him correctly, that sanitary standard checks will continue to be made at the border. If we are doing those checks at the border, why on earth can we not do all the checks at one place on imports into this country?

I did say finally, but I did not mean finally. Will my noble friend commit to bringing forward an instrument on the question of equivalence at such time as he suggests that non-EU countries may come forward with imports? I think he said that there would be an instrument at that time. Can he confirm that that is indeed the case? I think he will understand from my drift that I do not like the instrument before us.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to paragraph 10.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which states that consultation

“was undertaken as a joint consultation with the Scottish Government and Welsh Government. Northern Ireland is not involved in these amendments, due to the effects of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland.”

I declare an interest as a member of the House of Lords sub-committee that is scrutinising the protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland, and I have some questions in this regard. What does that mean in practice? Can eggs from GB be put on the market in Northern Ireland, and vice versa? Do these eggs have to be checked before they can be put on the market in Great Britain or Northern Ireland? That issue was raised by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Living in Northern Ireland, I am very well aware that Marks & Spencer and Sainsbury’s sell quite a lot of products that come from GB. What will the nature of these checks be? Where will they be carried out?

I support the protocol and believe in its sustainability, but perhaps the Minister can advise on progress in the ongoing negotiations on the protocol between the UK and the EU, with particular reference to the SPS arrangements. That was one of the “non-papers” from the EU in relation to this issue.

As this is a domestic statutory instrument, it falls to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee rather than our protocol committee to scrutinise it. What is the interaction between this statutory instrument and the protocol? Perhaps the Minister can give us some detail and clarity on that interaction and on the practical impact on the supply of eggs from GB to Northern Ireland and vice versa. As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said, eggs that travel from Northern Ireland to Britain enjoy unfettered access, so it would be good to get clarity on that.

It is important that the Government make a full analysis of the interaction of domestic primary and secondary legislation with the protocol. A lot of these statutory instruments come to us simply for information purposes, but we also get referred legislation from the EU that will affect and impact Northern Ireland on an ongoing basis. The Government have analysed the interaction of domestic primary and secondary legislation with the protocol. What has been done to ensure that that analysis takes place on an ongoing basis? If it is taking place, is it possible to publish the results and for a copy to be placed in the Library of both Houses?

National Food Strategy Report

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the conclusions of the report by Henry Dimbleby National Food Strategy: Part One, published on 29 July; when they will publish their response; and what steps they intend to take to implement the recommendations of the report.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I refer to my interests in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have already acted on the recommendations in Henry Dimbleby’s part 1 report with the announcement of the Covid winter support package and the recommendations on trade last year, which included putting the Trade and Agriculture Commission on to a statutory footing. We thank Henry Dimbleby for his independent review, including his part 2 report, published this year, which we will consider in the forthcoming government food strategy to be published in early 2022.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

It was an excellent report, and the national food strategy advocates upholding our own high standards in food production and that imports should meet these same standards. Given the fall in our self-sufficiency in food and the fact that tenant farmers will be in breach of their agricultural tenancies if they apply for any environmental schemes, will the Government ensure that these high standards of animal welfare and food safety that our farmers meet are met also in imported food products agreed under any free trade deals, to prevent substandard imports from putting our hill farmers in particular out of business?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I think I can give my noble friend some assurance here. Tenant farmers will be able to take out agreements under the sustainable farming incentive scheme, which begins being progressively rolled out next year. The Tenant Farmers Association has not raised any issues about tenancies preventing tenant farmers from entering into new environmental land management schemes. My colleague Victoria Prentis, the Agriculture Minister, met with the chief executive of the Tenant Farmers Association this week, and my noble friend’s concerns were not raised.

Farming Rules for Water

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness is perhaps referring to the amount of money the Government had said they would put into the transition scheme to assist farmers in changing their system to invest in better slurry systems. After consultation with the farmers, it has been decided to do that in a different way. We have the incentive fund, which is there for farmers to access, but they have said that they want the money spent on environmental measures to be looked at much more holistically across the whole farm, and that is what we are doing.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that the real emergency is giving farmers, particularly organic and livestock producers, clear and simple rules to follow? Is it not true that we simply do not know what the safe level of nutrients in the soil should be, so there should be no change to the rules or the regulatory policy statements until we have the science on which to base them?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

We do have a lot of science on this. If we were to indulge in many years of further scientific investigation, it would be too late for certain rivers, which—I am using strong words here—will be ecologically dead if we do not take action. The rules are there and they have been set out in the code for good agricultural practice since 1985. We are working with farmers to make sure that we apply them proportionately and to assist them in changing their businesses to deal with what is a very real and present problem.

Organics (Equivalence and Control Bodies Listing) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, for organic products imported from another country to be legally sold as organic in Great Britain they must be certified as organic by a third country or third-country control body that the UK has recognised as having equivalent or compliant standards.

The lists are currently contained within retained EU Commission Regulation EC number 1235/2008. Annexe III of this regulation lists third countries recognised as equivalent and gives the name and website of the competent authority for each country, along with a list of the control bodies operating in that country, their control body codes and websites. Annexe IV of the regulation lists third-country control bodies recognised as equivalent and gives the name, address, website, code numbers, applicable countries and approved product categories for each control body.

This statutory instrument was made to streamline the process of listing and accessing the details of the third countries and third-country control bodies that we recognise as compliant and equivalent for the purposes of UK organic regulations. The amendments made by this instrument do not constitute a policy change.

As the law stands, it would be necessary to pass a new SI to confirm recognition of a new country or control body, or for changes to existing recognition, such as changes to their name, website address or approved goods categories. With hundreds of organisations listed, this information can change frequently. When the UK was an EU member state, these changes were advised on by the European Commission and approved by representatives of the EU member states at the regulatory committee on organic production, not by the European Parliament.

Given the administrative nature of these changes, we believe that making numerous new SIs to reflect them would be disproportionate. The time taken to pass such SIs to update the lists would have a negative impact on trade in organics. Details held on these lists are necessary for port health authorities, local authorities and other relevant parties to ensure that the goods in question have been certified in a recognised third country or by a recognised third-country control body. The delay between the changes taking place and being reflected in legislation would result in discrepancies between the documents and legislation. This can cause disruption to trade, as even minor discrepancies may delay goods being checked at ports.

This SI will not alter the criteria according to which third countries and third-country control bodies are recognised. I would like to reassure the Committee that the process for allowing third-country products to be placed on the GB market as organic remains robust and follows highly technical criteria set out in the retained organics regulations: Council Regulation 834/2007 and Commission Regulations 889/2008 and 1235/2008. This SI simply seeks to move the lists currently referenced in legislation to the GOV.UK website, where they can be updated directly by officials. We will continue to uphold the high standards expected by UK consumers and businesses.

Our approach with this SI follows best practice in other policy areas, where minor amendments are made to lists on various topics without requiring an SI. For example, the register of protected geographical food and drink names, which determines what goods can be sold under particular names in GB, is updated by the Secretary of State on the advice of officials. These decisions are made by evaluating the merits of each case in accordance with criteria outlined in legislation. This change will also improve the accessibility of these lists for stakeholders by providing all the relevant information in a single location, removing the need to consult multiple pieces of legislation, a problem that stakeholders have raised in the past.

These proposed changes have been welcomed by stakeholders including UK port health authorities, UK organic control bodies—through the UK organic certifiers group—and the devolved Administrations at the UK organics four nations working group. International partners such as the United States Department of Agriculture have also welcomed the proposed changes.

The proposed lists on GOV.UK will be updated to reflect the terms of the trade and co-operation agreement, extending EU organic equivalence recognition until 31 December 2023 as agreed, without the need to pass an additional SI. Current UK legislation includes EU recognition only until 31 December 2021, so the lists will need to be amended before that date to be in line with the trade and co-operation agreement. If this SI does not pass, a separate instrument will be required to extend EU recognition to the end of 2023. If a new SI is not passed by the end of the year, that could cause a delay to trade and there would be a risk of political controversy.

A breach of our commitments under the TCA would potentially leave the UK open to retaliatory action from the EU, such as withdrawal of its recognition of UK organics standards, which would prevent GB organic goods from being sold in the EU. Given the importance of the EU market to UK organic producers, this would risk a severe impact on the sector and its contribution to the UK economy. The UK has committed to updating the lists of recognised third countries and third-country control bodies to reflect changes that occurred shortly before the end of the transition period but were not captured in the retained legislation. This includes adding, removing and amending some control bodies in Annexe III and Annexe IV.

Until this SI comes into effect, goods certified by those newly recognised control bodies risk rejection at the border and we also risk that goods certified by control bodies that are no longer recognised may enter the GB market. Delay to these changes would cause disruption to trade and risk a perception that we are in violation of our treaty obligations. Under the current terms of the Northern Ireland protocol, EU organics regulations continue to apply in Northern Ireland as they do in the EU. As such, Northern Ireland continues to use the list of recognised third countries and third-country control bodies in EU law and this SI will have no effect on trade in Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for setting out the remit of the statutory instrument that is before us this afternoon. We have been greatly assisted by the 14th report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which my noble friend will be aware has a number of outstanding concerns that I will raise.

Paragraph 7.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum says that

“instead of laying new statutory instruments for new recognitions or changes to existing recognitions, the law be amended”

in the way that my noble friend outlined. It concludes:

“This will save a considerable amount of officials’ and Parliamentary time and allow for greater speed in updating information.”


I do not think that Parliament has ever asked for less time to scrutinise legislation. As my noble friend will recall, when much of the legislation went through under the treaties and the Acts taking us out of the European Union, concern was expressed at the amount of parliamentary scrutiny that there would be.

My first question to my noble friend is this. Paragraph 10.1 specifically states:

“The changes to the listing of control bodies and third countries have been discussed with UK control bodies … and with the devolved administrations at the Organics Four Nations Working Group.”


I am interested to know whether that was just one meeting. Was there the opportunity for the devolved Parliaments and Governments to raise any concerns that they must have?

My noble friend will be aware that, in this very Room last week, the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee met to raise a number of issues. His department was mentioned, as there are, I think, 14 common frameworks that relate to it. I might be wrong, but I do not think that Parliament has seen a single one of those. Obviously, it is of great interest to us to see what has been agreed. I mention that as background. I would like to think that the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish nations have had the opportunity for both their Parliaments and Governments to raise any concerns that they had.

I turn briefly to the issues raised in appendix 3 of the 14th report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee—the exchange of letters with our honourable friend Victoria Prentis, in the other place, as Minister for Farming, Fisheries and Food. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has done the House a great service in pointing out its concerns. I would like to quote from the report:

“These Regulations replace a legislative process for updating a list of third countries and third country control bodies which are recognised as equivalent in relation to organic standards, with an administrative process.”


It concludes that

“there should be parliamentary oversight of updates to lists.”

Will my noble friend explain to us this afternoon why there is the need for such speed in this regard? Can he convince us that there has been proper parliamentary oversight of what was delegated to the Government to perform this?

The report goes on to cite a letter from the Lord President to the chairman of the committee, our noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts:

“I agree that it is important that Parliament has the opportunity to scrutinise significant changes in addition to streamlining processes to ensure that the regulatory system best serves the needs of British businesses and consumers.”


Obviously there was a long debate about equivalence at the time that the legislation went through. Noble Lords ought to know my admiration for the organic sector and its importance to the rural economy.

I conclude by again raising an issue that was raised by our noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts with our honourable friend Victoria Prentis. On page 30 of the report, the committee sets out again its concern that the decisions before us this afternoon have been removed from the oversight of Parliament by switching from a legislative to a purely administrative process. I am not entirely sure that my noble friend has set out the context for why we will not in future be able to look at these statutory instruments, albeit briefly, or why we are losing the parliamentary oversight, which seems to be the nub of the concern expressed in the 14th report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.

Fisheries Act 2020 (Scheme for Financial Assistance) (England) Regulations 2021

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Wednesday 21st July 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the regulations and would like to pay personal tribute to my noble friend for all he has achieved for the country during his many years conducting fisheries negotiations when we were a member of the European Union. I particularly welcome the fact that, as he highlighted, there will be no gap in funding in the UK. That is greatly welcomed by the recipients, and by all of us as legislators.

I would like to press the Minister on a number of issues. As he said, this is one of the first set of regulations made under the Fisheries Act 2020. Will the total received be the same as under the previous funds administered through the EU scheme? Does my noble friend think that it might be expanded in due course? He is aware of my particular interest in and concern for inshore fishermen. Paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that, as my noble friend said:

“There will be benefits for coastal communities across England”.


I am sure that many, particularly in Whitby, will be keen for the recreational sea fisheries to which my noble friend alluded to be helped in this way.

The Minister is aware of my interest in inshore fishermen, who were disadvantaged under the previous fisheries policy. They hope to be advantaged greatly under the new arrangements not just by having more scallops but by having a quota for fish such as cod. I would be delighted to hear if that will be the case.

I welcome my noble friend’s saying that sustainability and innovation measures will be supported under the regulations. In the debate we had on fisheries in the previous EU Sub-Committee—my noble friend will doubtless have read the report—we looked at innovation and sustainability in some depth and reached a conclusion regarding the benefits of remote electronic monitoring. Will fishermen be able to apply for these funds and use them to install and operate remote electronic monitoring equipment on their boats?

We are obviously grateful to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which broadly welcomes the instrument, for its report. It received a submission from ClientEarth criticising the instrument for not including provisions to make the payment of financial support conditional on the sustainable management of fisheries. I am slightly perplexed by the response from Defra, which is very general and not entirely specific. Exactly how will the Government deliver on their policy to drive meaningful change to increase sustainability, provide world-class fisheries management and support thriving marine management? My noble friend is better equipped than anyone else I can think of to deliver on that, and I would just like a little more meat on the fish bones this afternoon. I am grateful to him for bringing this instrument before us, so that we can ensure its safe passage before the Recess.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 20th July 2021 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment came to me when we were discussing the Environment Bill last week. I know that it is not drafted as well as it should be; I apologise to the Committee for that. I say to my noble friend the Minister, “Forget about the drafting. It is the principle of what I am trying to get at that is important here”.

Most of our conservation work to improve our biodiversity and wealth of species has been habitat-based. It has not been very successful because when we were in the European Union, and since our exit, the Government have not focused on the critical issue of management. Management requires human decision. There are some fairly easy examples to make about species and how people will react to them, but when you look at pests, people’s opinions start to vary and that perception could be translated into legislation. That is my concern here. Take deer, for instance. You can have lots of photographs and everybody will look at Bambi and ooh and ah, but deer are a pest that need to be controlled. We discussed this in the Environment Bill and there seemed to be unanimity there. It would be an easy species for a committee to make an emotional, rather than scientific, decision on.

One can get into more questionable species. What about rats and wasps? If you analyse what people think about them, they have less feeling for them and are much more prepared to allow proper pest control of those species than they are of some others. That is why local authorities have pest divisions that deal with wasps—I have had to use them—mice and rats. What about bedbugs? Until recently, they were fairly common in this country, and in lots of places they are sadly still common. People’s perception of a bedbug is not the same as their perception of deer or seals. We need to have a scientific basis on which to approach this matter.

We could turn to brown hares. Brown hares are on our biodiversity action plan and are rated an important species but, at certain times of the year, in certain parts of the UK, the hare is a pest, and there needs to be the ability to control it. The ability to control pests in the most humane manner possible was a great omission from the badger Act, and we are paying the price for that with the increasing amount of predation of ground-nesting birds by badgers. We have seen it with lapwings and curlews. I have given examples in the environment committee of the destruction of lapwing at the Game & Wildlife Conservation Trust farm up in Aberdeenshire, where the badgers have actually been photographed destroying the nests and reducing species as a result.

During debates on the Environment Bill, we came across the conservation covenants. These will be an important part of the Government’s policy on improving our biodiversity and species number, but, again, action needs to be taken with management in view, not just the habitat.

So, what I am getting at with this amendment is whether the Minister, when he gives the brief to this Committee, will include management and pest control as an important aspect for the animal sentience committee to take into account so that the policies it comments on and the position it urges the Government to take do not contradict with the Government’s well-intentioned position on conservation, biodiversity, crop production and human health.

I have talked mostly about conservation and biodiversity, but I would like to give an example that was raised during the debate on the Environment Bill by my noble friend Lord Lucas, again on deer. It was about a wood that the RSPB looked after in Dorset. The RSPB got round the problem of the deer by fencing that bit of wood so that the deer were no longer a problem. However, that forced the deer on to the neighbour’s land —this is pretty bad management—and the devastation of the crops growing on the adjacent farmland was much more intense because the deer were not allowed into that bit of woodland.

As usual, there is a balance to be struck in all this. I hope that my noble friend will be able to make some comments on this. I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity given by my noble friend Lord Caithness in moving his Amendment 35A to probe my noble friend the Minister and the Government a little bit more on the cross-departmental responsibilities of the animal sentience committee. I also want to explore what the relationship will be within Defra and the relationship between existing legislation and soon-to-be legislation in the form of the Agriculture Act and the Environment Bill, the latter of which my noble friend Lord Caithness referred to. We spent some time in the first day of Committee on the amendments looking at pests—particularly deer, badgers, bats, grey squirrels and insects—and sentience. It begs the question: are insects to be treated as sentient beings within the remit of this Bill?