Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 14th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords, as has been said, this is a vast Bill. I cannot remember receiving so many briefings and analyses from so many different organisations—from human rights organisations and those concerned about the abuse of women and children to local government and medical organisations, including the GMC.

There is support for some aspects of the Bill but also a great deal of criticism, with fears that certain measures are untenable and unworkable. I shall discuss some of those today in the context of the deliberations on the Bill of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member, as is my noble and very good friend Lord Dubs. I shall reinforce some of his comments.

The committee scrutinised the Bill, discussing the content of each part carefully and holding inquiries, including on mothers in prison and the right to family life, the criminalisation of unauthorised encampments, and public order issues. Tomorrow we will be examining our draft report on the sentencing and remand of children, which is of particular interest to me. For each session, we engaged with experts on the issues raised in the Bill. I praise and thank the staff of our amazing secretariat for their expertise and hard work, and also our witnesses for their often passionate comments about the Bill and their desire to protect and enhance the rights of those who will be affected by its outcomes.

I will simply make a few general comments on some sections of the Bill. The Joint Committee on Human Rights will, of course, be tabling amendments. First, on the rights of children whose mothers are in prison: the right to family life is enshrined in Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights and in three articles of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, involving non-discrimination, the best interests of the child, respect for the views of the child and children deprived of a family environment. The committee has concerns about all of these issues, especially about the welfare of the child, sentencing and data collection on children of prisoners.

We are also worried about the right to engage in peaceful protest and freedom of assembly, described so graphically by my noble friend Lord Dubs. The Joint Committee on Human Rights considered that issues such as conditions on the noise produced by processions are not proportionate and that a regulation-making power for the Secretary of State to clarify the meanings of disruption by statutory instrument is unacceptable. The committee was not convinced that the case for unlimited conditions on assemblies has been made. A loophole in the Bill increases the risk of peaceful protesters being arrested or prosecuted for innocent mistakes. The Bill does not include references to the right to freedom of expression; the committee proposes an extra statutory protection for the right to protest.

On Part 4 of the Bill, the committee considered that the human rights concerns of Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people were about criminalisation with regard to residence and having places to go, well described by my noble friend Lady Whitaker. We considered that the Government may be liable to use criminal law to address what is essentially a planning issue, as others have said. The language of the parts of the Bill describing the acts of Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people allows for prejudice and discrimination. Landowners have rights, and the provision of more authorised sites would benefit landowners who are concerned about the current situation. The police, too, have expressed discomfort about this part of the Bill.



As I said earlier, the committee will tomorrow consider the draft report on Parts 7 and 8, on sentencing and the remand of children and young people. Its concerns already reflect those of organisations and individuals who have for years shared grave concerns and misgivings about the sentencing of young people. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child articles are clear that every child should be treated

“in a manner which takes into account the needs of persons of his or her age”,

and that the detention of a child should

“be used only as a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate period of time.”

The impact on the often deprived and vulnerable children who end up in the criminal justice system can be devastating. Ethnic disproportionality is seen at many stages of the youth justice system. It has been pointed out by many people that, although the UK has come a long way in protecting children, the fact that the articles of the UNCRC are not incorporated into UK law—although Wales and Scotland have made progress in doing so—has serious implications for the possibility of challenge in a UK court.

The issues I have briefly mentioned clearly need expansion and consideration in Committee. I am confident that your Lordships’ House will do this with its usual skill and thoroughness.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this amendment raises important issues in relation to domestic abuse. It is relevant to Amendment 184 in the next group, on teenage relationships, to which I shall speak. And I shall be brief.

The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, passionately described the situation in relation to helping prevent domestic violence in the next generation. We must maintain this passion. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Istanbul convention are powerful statements and calls to action, but of course calls to action must be taken at the national level, and we must do so.

The Council of Europe’s Lanzarote convention, which the UK ratified in 2018, continues to provide new insights into violence against children, including sexual violence and any form of exploitation. It was the first convention to address violence in the home. I declare an interest as the UK representative on the Council of Europe, and I attend the Lanzarote Committee. Its central tenet is:

“No violence against children is justifiable. All violence against children is preventable.”


Violence in teenage relationships, in whatever form, is violence against children: they are under 18. We need to consider how violence might be inspired. This amendment suggests that there is much concern about the influence of child viewing of violent and/or pornographic material, which may have a detrimental influence on the development of children’s brains and emotional behaviour. This is well documented.

A recent report from the Children’s Commissioner looked at the range of online platforms used by children, from social media to gaming and messaging. Digital technology is now a feature of children’s lives. One in three internet users around the world are children, and half of all 10 year-olds in the UK have their own smartphone. Of course, the digital world has much to offer, such as communicating with family and friends and accessing information. However, the digital world has not kept pace with keeping children from harm. In the digital age, people, including children, are influenced by what they see in the media, particularly if they are vulnerable in the first place. There is also evidence to show that some children watch this material at home, sometimes with parents. Children watching unsuitable material online has increased during Covid, not surprisingly.

Research has shown that perceptions of body image are susceptible to online images, especially among girls, leaving them feeling underconfident and inadequate. Violence in sexual relationships is sometimes presented online as normal, and there is evidence to show that teenagers, male and female, take it as such, as the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, said. What does this say about how they will develop healthy relationships? What does it say about them becoming a possible perpetrator of violence, or a victim of violence, accepting such behaviour as normal?

The online harms Bill may be some way off, and we cannot wait to act. This amendment asks the Secretary of State to commission an investigation of the impact of access to online pornography on children and how this may encourage abuse. An age verification virtual conference took place in June 2020, with evidence from over 20 countries. It included a discussion of the effects of substantial online exposure on the adolescent brain. There is much research to work with, but there is more to do, specifically in the UK. I hope the Government will act on this.

[Baroness Eaton (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am pleased to speak in support of Amendment 177A, so ably proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin.

Protecting children from pornographic websites is no less important now than it was in 2015, when the seminal Conservative manifesto commitment was made to

“stop children’s exposure to harmful sexualised content online, by requiring age verification for access to all sites containing pornographic material”.

Similarly, protecting children from pornographic websites is no less important now than when the Digital Economy Bill became an Act of Parliament in 2017.

The noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, and others have eloquently covered many points I wished to make, and therefore I will not repeat them. However, I would like to make two points.

First, in understanding the full significance of Amendment 177A, it is important to see it as an investment to reduce the incidence of domestic violence in the future. A significant proportion of online pornography depicts sexual violence, and if Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act is not implemented, under-18s will be exposed to this content and will conclude that violence is a normal part of sexual relationships. This will, in turn, inevitably impact behaviour, not only among under-18s now but as they grow into adulthood. Protecting children from access to this pornography is not just about impacting them today; it is about impacting their development because of the consequences that it will reap tomorrow, when they are adults, in levels of domestic violence.

Secondly, I observe that the challenge we face is not unique to the UK. A US survey of 2,227 men and women aged 18 to 60 years old, published in 2020, found that

“the associations between pornography use and sexual behaviors was statistically significant. … Clinicians need to be aware of recent potential shifts in sexual behaviors, particularly those such as choking that may lead to harm.”

The authors also said:

“We were struck that one-fifth of women … reported having been choked as part of sex.”


In this context, it seems the 2015 Conservative manifesto was ahead of its time.

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This amendment also mentions marriage, the relationship form that most young people aspire to and the family context for raising children where abuse is statistically least likely to be present. Various studies and ONS statistics suggest, first, that domestic abuse is more prevalent in cohabiting relationships than in married/civil partnership couples; and, second that it is more prevalent between divorced or separated couples than where relationships are intact. The act of marriage does not, of course, vaccinate couples against violence, so compulsory preparation before entering this solemn, lifelong commitment makes a lot of sense, particularly if it helps to reduce levels of relationship dysfunction such as abuse and breakdown. This is important, because children growing up with unrelated adults, especially adult males who move in after their parents break up, are statistically much more likely to witness or experience abuse and violence than those who grow up with both biological parents.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 184, to which I have added my name. This amendment focuses on the issue of abuse in teenage relationships, which is very worrying and more common than we may think. Teenagers are children, and should be treated with all the protections offered to children in law and practice. I define children as expressed in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—that is, any person aged 18 or under is considered to be a child.

I am familiar with the government view that abuse between children below the age of 16 is child abuse and should be dealt with under child protection. I suggest that this may be a somewhat redundant view. The system was designed to protect children from abuse within the home, not from outside. Many children aged 14, for example, are not always in the home, but some may be, and suffering from abusive relationships. They would therefore not be deemed suitable for statutory intervention.

As we know, there are gradations to maturity in children, especially in adolescents, who are still children but going through emotional and physical changes. Some children are mature in many ways at the age of 13 and some are not. Some of 18 are still immature emotionally, if not physically. Children cannot be slotted into a particular category simply because of age. Sexual activity is one of those categories, much as we may wish it were not.

The Bill and action after it need to address the fact that teenage relationship abuse is not defined in any statute or routinely identified in the child protection system. Interviews with young people, particularly girls, show a high acceptance of what would normally be considered unacceptable behaviour in boys, including violence. Relationships and sex education in schools, referred to by several noble Lords, may produce many benefits to young people. Making this statutory may help to develop self-esteem concepts and ideas of what is healthy and unhealthy in relationships, for boys as well as girls. With Covid, such sensitive discussions are not possible in schools. I fear the outcomes of that.

I taught adolescent girls for many years. Some of those from vulnerable backgrounds, but not exclusively, said that they would accept bad behaviour and even violence from a boy and consider it normal. I thought things would have radically changed many years later, and they have among some young people and people generally, but less than I would have expected. This is possibly due to the influence of the media and other complex factors. Relationship and sex education may have a greater impact now. It is more high profile and generally better prepared for and acceptable.

Beyond education, we need services that support children to prevent and address teenage abusive relationship. Brook Advisory Centres, which I have been involved with for many years, offer free confidential advice for young people under the age of 25 from trained staff, not only on contraception, but on relationships and abuse. But not every town has a Brook Advisory Centre. It would help in all kinds of ways if communities had confidential health services for children and young people.

Statutory guidance must make it clear that, if a child is a victim of abuse in an intimate relationship, they should be entitled to specialist support services. Those services must be available, visible and confidential. Statutory guidance on teenage relationship abuse must be produced to cover both victims and perpetrators. I hope this will be considered by the Government. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak chiefly to Amendment 184, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Burt of Solihull, and signed by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen. I declare my position as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

It is very important that the Government consider the issue of teenage relationship abuse and the need to provide services and support to deal with it. The amendment talks about

“sufficient levels of local authority service provision”.

We know how stretched local authorities are and there is a need for resources attached to that. It is very telling that a lot of the research into this area has come in the last couple of years. A lot of the research and work has been done by NGOs and campaigning groups, and indeed a lot of the education work.

I note the excellent Women’s Aid #LoveRespect campaign and research around that, which found that one-third of teenage girls knew that they had been in an abusive relationship. However, when the remaining two-thirds were asked more detailed questions, it became clear that more than half of them had experienced abusive behaviour but had not recognised it as such. I will go to the words of someone with experience. Women’s Aid quotes its ambassador, the personal trainer, author and social media influencer Alice Liveing, who said:

“When I was 16 I found myself in an abusive relationship and felt so isolated and alone. I didn’t think that abuse happened to young people, and to be honest I had no idea that what I was experiencing was even abuse for a long time”.


I look also to the excellent work of the group SafeLives, which quotes the 2015 Crime Survey for England and Wales reporting that 6.6% of males and 12.6% of females aged 16 to 19 had experienced domestic abuse in the past year, as well as a survey of 13 to 17 year-olds which found that 25% of girls and 18% of boys had experienced some form of physical abuse in a relationship, with the highest level of severity being no different from that suffered by adults.

To further add to the evidence on this, the research project From Boys to Men found that 49% of boys and 33% of girls aged 13 to 14 thought that hitting a partner would be “OK” in at least one of 12 scenarios that they were presented with. Clearly we have a problem here, and I believe it is really important that the Domestic Abuse Bill acknowledges this and accepts that there is a need to provide resources to deal with it.

I will briefly address Amendment 180 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and others. I note that in introducing it the noble Baroness acknowledged that the wording perhaps needed some work, and indeed I found some of it rather surprising. However, the push in proposed new paragraph (c) for increased mental health support in primary schools is certainly something that is very important to raise, given the epidemic of mental ill health that has only been growing in our deeply unhealthy society.

However, proposed new paragraph (d) does not really acknowledge the fact that the Government have brought in compulsory sex and relationships education—I know a great deal about that because in the other place my honourable friend the Member for Brighton Pavilion has been at the absolute forefront of pushing for fully inclusive age-appropriate relationships and sex education. However, I find the final element of the amendment rather curious, with its focus on marriage. The privileging of one form of relationship over another in education is not a constructive approach.

I hope the Committee will forgive me if I take a brief moment for a final reflection, given that we are coming to the end of the sixth day of discussion of this important Bill. The debate has been thoughtful and thorough, and I hope it will be useful for the Government when they go away to consider it. I want to reflect on the words of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, in the debate on Amendment 173. He was paying tribute to all the feminist campaigners who came before us who brought us to this point. That led me to look back over the history of misogyny in your Lordships’ House, which drew me rather quickly to one of our predecessors, Lord Curzon—a man against whom many charges might be laid. Little more than a century ago he authored a pamphlet giving 15 reasons against women’s suffrage. I know that one of his descendants is with us today and I will not hold his family heritage against him. But there is an important lesson to be drawn from that reflection on history: the lesson that campaigning works. Over decades, feminist campaigners have transformed the place of women in society. The Bill is an important reflection of that, and that is something that we can take into Report to fortify us for the debates ahead on this truly important Bill.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th January 2021 Lords Chamber

Depending on the contributions to this debate, particularly those of the official Opposition, I reserve the right to test the opinion of the House on Amendments 12 and 13, but I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, when the time comes, will press Amendment 24 if it is not accepted by the Government. I beg to move.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Young, has spoken passionately and eloquently about protecting children, as he did in Committee. He made an excellent start to this debate.

I shall speak to Amendment 14, which prohibits the authorisation of criminal conduct by children without specific prior judicial approval. I thank the Minister for arranging for my noble friend Lord Dubs and me to meet officials in the Home Office to discuss this amendment. This was useful and informative but my concerns remain about the use of children in criminal circumstances.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member, reported on the Bill last November. The government response to the report was published on Monday and makes substantial reference to criminal conduct by children, for which I am grateful. I shall refer to those reports.

I come to the Bill as someone who has worked with children—anyone under the age of 18, as defined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—for many years. I am not sentimental about children, but I believe that they have rights as set out in the UNCRC— not just legal rights, although they are important, but moral and ethical rights such as protection, safety, family life and the right to be heard. Societies that nurture, cherish and attend to the total welfare of children are civilised societies. No society should endanger children. They need protection but also empowerment to take responsibility for themselves and others, and to learn to express opinions constructively. I like to think that the UK aspires to these principles of the UNCRC which it has ratified. We are fortunate in this country in having an articulate, dedicated voluntary sector for children that keeps us vigilant to their needs.

I cannot see how a child could be used to commit a criminal offence without there being a risk of danger, physical or psychological. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, said, I would prefer children not to be working as CHIS at all, but if they do we must make the situation as watertight as possible. I and other noble Lords know of cases where children have been let down and exploited by systems, and fallen through the net to physical and psychological harm, sometimes death. That must be prevented at all costs. It is why my amendment seeks high-level judicial approval before a child can take part in criminal conduct. The organisations Justice, Just for Kids Law and the Children’s Rights Alliance for England call that “meaningful safeguards”.

Amendment 24 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and other noble Lords is very worthy. The noble Lord, Lord Young, referred to it as a useful advancement. I recognise also that she and her co-signatories are people who also care deeply about children’s welfare. That amendment extends additional protection not only to children but to vulnerable adults. That is important but, and this is a big “but”, it does not provide for independent judicial scrutiny of a CCA being made in respect of a child or other vulnerable person. It imposes a requirement that there should be exceptional circumstances before an authorisation is granted and makes it clear that other interests cannot be more primary than the child’s, and that it must have been determined that the child will not be in any danger of foreseeable physical or psychological harm. That amendment also makes compulsory the presence of an appropriate adult for all under-18s when meeting with the investigating authority. It requires any use of a CCA in respect of a child to be reported to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner within 18 days.

Amendment 24 meets most of the concerns of the Joint Committee on Human Rights about the welfare of children under CCAS. However, a major concern is that there is no independent decision-maker—only independent review after the event by the IPC. This system can pick up an abuse of power only when it has happened. Tough, independent assessment of whether a child should be used as a CHIS should be made before the child moves into a dangerous situation. I am sure the people working with these children are caring and professional, but this is such a serious issue for children that a judicial commissioner should look at each case and make the final decision.

I know that the Minister, speaking on different amendments on Monday, said that she could not agree with prior authorisation. I am not sure why. It may be that she can tell me more. There are not that many children in such a position—between 12 and 17 between 2015 and 2018. Undue delay would therefore be unlikely and the children’s cases would have double scrutiny, which is what they deserve, due to the seriousness of what they are being asked to do. If Amendment 24 is accepted by the House, I shall not put my amendment to the test but will suggest further action. The government amendment does not add much to what we have already heard, and we need to go further. That amendment, however, recognises that there are concerns about authorising children as CHIS and makes efforts at reconciliation, as the noble Lord, Lord Young, said.

This issue is not new. The Joint Committee on Human Rights raised concerns in 2018 and 2019 with the Minister for State for Security and Economic Crime and the Investigatory Powers Commissioner. In 2019, the High Court assessed whether the scheme in place to regulate the use of children as CHIS provided sufficient safeguards to comply with Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The court concluded that the scheme was compliant. However, it was accepted that the use of a child as a CHIS was

“liable to interfere with the child’s ‘private life’, which covers the physical and moral integrity of the person. The dangers to the child of acting as a CHIS in the context of serious crimes are self-evident.”

The Joint Committee on Human Rights concluded that the Bill must be amended to exclude children or to make clear that children may be authorised to commit criminal offences in only the most exceptional circumstances. I suggest that those exceptional circumstances should have independent consideration at the highest level.

The Government’s response to the JCHR report gave considerable space to discussion of these issues in relation to chapter 6 of the report. But they came up with, to me, a rather tenuous argument, stating that

“young people may have unique access to information that is important in preventing and prosecuting gang violence and terrorism. This helps remove from the cycle of crime not only the young person … but other young and vulnerable individuals caught in criminality. We should also acknowledge that by universally prohibiting the authorisation of young people to undertake criminality we are increasing the risks to them and placing them in an even more vulnerable position. If criminal gangs … know that a young person will never be authorised by the state to undertake criminality, such groups will be more likely to force young people to engage in criminality, confident in the knowledge that they could never be a CHIS”.—[Official Report, 3/12/20; cols. 937-8.]

I can see absolutely no logic in that statement.

Indeed, a former undercover police officer, with experience of being a CHIS, has said that

“Children recruited as informants are also highly likely to end up getting drawn back into criminality and feeling trapped in their situation.”


I am aware that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, knows something about those situations.

A leading and highly respected child psychiatrist has said that

“the deployment of children as a CHIS could incur significant … emotional damage to the child and could in fact engender the creation of new criminals by placing them in criminogenic environments.”

This is not child protection; it is not respecting children’s rights. It is dangerous and potentially destructive. Every care must be taken, and we have a duty to see that that happens.

I have the greatest respect for the Minister and admire her common sense, sensitivity and practicality. Might I suggest that this whole operation needs to be taken away and looked at again very carefully, with an independent review? This should cover: the types of involvement by children; how children are assessed as suitable for such work; how the views of children, parents if appropriate and those accompanying children are taken into account; what psychological support is offered; and how children are assessed and supported after their involvement as CHIS, and for any long-term effects.

This may result in a recommendation not to use children in this fashion—I would welcome that—or in more stringent methods of prior independent authorisation being employed, as suggested by my amendment. The current situation in which children are used as CHIS cannot remain the same. I hope that the Minister will consider this suggestion. This issue is not going to go away; indeed, it is likely to intensify. I look forward to her comments and thank noble Lords for their time.

[Baroness Kidron (CB) [V]]

I speak to Amendment 24 in my name and that of the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Kennedy of Southwark, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. This sets out the safeguards and protections that should exist if we ask a child to commit a crime as a covert human intelligence source. I pay tribute to the work that many have done on this issue, including the noble Lords who support this amendment; the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, who raised these concerns so admirably in Committee; the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, who has left us with no doubt where right lies; and my noble friend Lord Russell of Liverpool, who has taken time to go through the interlocking amendments and considerations with me.

I also acknowledge the tireless efforts of Stella Creasy MP, in bringing this issue forward in the other place, and the children’s rights advocates Just for Kids Law, which brought the court case on this matter last year. I have taken up the baton for this work at their request. As many of your Lordships know, my time, both in the House and beyond its walls, is spent as an advocate for children’s rights online and offline. I have great sympathy for the other amendments in this group, but I speak to Amendment 24 only and will make some points about government Amendment 26. I note and take to heart the words of both the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham; while I have their support for what I propose, it is the absolute minimum that children require and is not ideal, in their view. I declare my interests set out on the register.

Children do not all have the same circumstances. It is simply a fact that some children will not be as well-loved as others, some not as well-cared-for and some not as well-behaved. None the less, whether they are loved, cared for or well-behaved, any person under the age of 18 is a child. In a context where a person under the age of 18 is being asked to be a covert source and do something illegal, we must ensure that they remain a child in the eyes of all who play a part. In every other interaction with the criminal justice system, we try to remove children from criminal activity to take them away from harm and towards safety, but before us is legislation that formalises our ability to do the opposite.

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Moved by

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

15: Clause 1, page 3, line 2, at end insert—
“(8A) A criminal conduct authorisation may not authorise any criminal conduct—(a) intentionally causing death or grievous bodily harm to an individual or being reckless as to whether such harm is caused;(b) involving an attempt in any manner to obstruct or pervert the course of justice;(c) amounting to an offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009 or any offence listed in Schedule 3 to the Sexual Offences Act 2003;(d) subjecting an individual to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, within the meaning of Article 3 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 to the Human Rights Act 1998; or(e) depriving a person of their liberty, within the meaning of Article 5 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 to the Human Rights Act 1998.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment establishes a prohibition on the authorisation of serious criminal offences, in similar terms to that appearing in the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act 1985.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Dubs and Lord Rosser and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for adding their names in support of this amendment.

The bottom line on this amendment is to include a prohibition on the authorisation of serious criminal offences. It establishes a prohibition on such offences listed in my amendment; these are in similar terms to those in the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act 1985, which I will refer to later.

I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, as is my noble friend Lord Dubs, and I will refer to its report on the Bill, published last November. The committee had serious concerns about this part of the Bill, and I shall put this amendment to a Division unless I receive a thorough reassurance from the Minister.

In chapter 4 of the JCHR report, four issues are discussed: first, there being no express limit in the Bill on the type of crime that can be committed; secondly, consideration of the approach taken in other jurisdictions; thirdly, the power to prohibit certain conduct by order; and fourthly, the Human Rights Act as an effective safeguard.

In their written response to the JCHR report, published on Monday, the Government give detailed consideration to the recommendations in this amendment. I am grateful for that, but I do not think it covers all our concerns as a committee. The Minister will perhaps reflect these considerations in her response. It is helpful that the Government restate their commitment to human rights in the response at the end of section 3. They say that

“the United Kingdom is committed to human rights and will continue to champion human rights at home and abroad. The United Kingdom is committed to the ECHR.”

But evidence of the commitment to human rights has to be demonstrated and reinforced, and I am concerned that by not expressing limits in the Bill on the type of crime that can be authorised, human rights are not being defended.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights has expressed the concern that:

“The Bill contains no express limit on the types of criminal conduct that can be authorised. Even the most serious offences such as rape, murder, sexual abuse of children or torture, which would necessarily violate a victim’s human rights, are not excluded on the face of the Bill.”


The Home Office, in its guidance on limits of authorised conduct, consider this necessary because

“to do so would place into the hands of criminals, terrorists and hostile states a means of creating a checklist for suspected CHIS to be tested against.”

In their joint written submission to the JCHR, the NGOs Reprieve, the Pat Finucane Centre, Privacy International and Big Brother Watch note that under the Canadian Security Intelligence Act there is a power to authorise criminal conduct similar to that proposed in the Bill. However, the Canadian legislation expressly provides that nothing in the Act justifies the issues set out in my amendment. They are, to summarise: causing death or grievous bodily harm; perverting the course of justice; any offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 or the 2009 Act in Scotland; subjecting an individual to torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, as in the meaning of the HRA 1998; or depriving a person of their liberty.

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[Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con) [V]]

My name was down due to a fault of mine; I apologise for interrupting.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

I have reservations about some of the issues the Minister raised in summing up this excellent debate—most of them have been addressed by noble Lords. I thank all noble Lords for their varied and incisive comments and useful examples in this valuable, interesting and important debate.

I am particularly delighted that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, immediately followed me in this debate; he raised many issues and provided excellent analysis and clarifications. I accept his comments and am delighted that he feels he can support what he has called an imperfect amendment. He is also right in saying, as did the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and others, that great weight must be given to the issue of torture, which should never be authorised.

Other noble Lords have contributed varied arguments on my amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, made a useful contribution from the point of view of Scotland, where, interestingly, the Bill was found to be inadequate, as he said. That has been a theme throughout the debate, especially when discussing the Human Rights Act as an inadequate safeguard to prevent criminal offences. The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, among many others, raised this issue, saying that we cannot legislate in such broad terms; it is not all right to do so.

In thanking noble Lords for participating in this debate, I note that, although I understand what the Minister is saying, the consensus is that there are too many inadequacies. Given those inadequacies, I beg to test the opinion of the House.

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[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

We have Amendments 27, 29, 30 and 45 in this group. Amendment 27 is the central amendment. I appreciate that it may not be immediately obvious, but it responds to how the Bill is constructed, so I will try to explain.

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act—RIPA—allows for a number of authorities to deploy sources. That number is reduced by this Bill, and we support that. However, at the same time, all authorities that remain on the list are relevant authorities, which are also able to grant criminal conduct authorisations. Our amendment would leave out what is a repeal of the list in RIPA—that repeal follows from the Bill’s new Part A1 of the RIPA schedule—but it puts back the police, the National Crime Agency, the Serious Fraud Office and the intelligence services for the purposes of new Section 29B, which is for new criminal conduct authorisations. In short, amendments 27 and 45 would mean that all the authorities listed in Clause 2 are relevant authorities for the purposes of the sections of RIPA that continue and so can deploy sources, but only the police, the NCA, SFO and intelligence services can grant CCAs. Simply taking out a number of authorities from the Bill does not achieve that, though it took me a while to work out how to get there and we got it wrong in Committee. The Minister was kind enough not to rub that in.

At the last stage, the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, explained the concerns of the JCHR, and they have tabled their amendment again. Other noble Lords had amendments and spoke to concerns about what the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, called overreach. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, proposes leaving off the list the five authorities which have caused the most surprise among a number of noble Lords.

At the last stage and on Monday, I felt several times that those of us who have been putting forward amendments to the Bill, in what I described then as attempts to buttress safeguards to the granting of CCAs, while on the whole accepting their use, were thought to be attacking the use of agents. We were not. We understand the safeguards in the Bill and the draft code of practice—necessity and proportionality, as well as the procedural safeguards. Of course, most of us do not have the direct experience of other noble Lords, and most of us could not do what they do or have done. But I hope they do not regard it as disrespectful of them if I say that one of the attributes of this House is that we blend expertise and experience with, I hope, reasonably informed and intelligent generalism. It would not be good for democracy—I am aware of the irony of an unelected politician making the point—if experience in a particular area were not leavened by other experiences, including life experience.

Questioning the authorities that can grant criminal conduct authorisations is not questioning the use of agents. I understand the argument that it may be better not to split activities and that, if criminal conduct is to be authorised, it is better to authorise an agent already placed in the authority, perhaps even an employee. On Monday my noble friend Lord Paddick made the counterargument that, if the situation is so serious that a CCA is contemplated, it should be a matter for the police. It is a judgment between the two positions. I regard the granting of a CCA—permission to commit a crime for the greater good—as so serious that it should be more limited than the deployment of an agent. I do not dispute that some of what the authorities in contention, if I may put it that way, deal with is extremely serious; but I started to wonder why we would take out of the list of those who can deploy a CHIS the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority and the Marine Management Organisation while retaining, for instance, the Environment Agency.

Our other amendments, which would be pre-empted if Amendment 27 is agreed, are to limit the authority of the Armed Forces to the police of the three services— the reference to the intelligence services is unaffected—as we assume, or hope, that it is not intended that every part of the Armed Forces should be entitled to give agents the authority to commit crime. In the case of the Home Office, we would limit the Home Secretary’s right, in effect, to authorising herself to prevent or detect modern slavery and trafficking, picking up on the Minister’s explanation of the inclusion of the Home Office being specifically related to immigration enforcement—she gave an example. I beg to move.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for her explanation of this set of amendments. I shall be brief in presenting Amendment 28. I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which considered the Bill and the issue of granting authorisations. This amendment would restrict the authorities that can grant criminal conduct authorisations to police forces, the National Crime Agency, the Serious Fraud Office and the intelligence services.

The recent Joint Committee on Human Rights report considers the wide range of public bodies in the Bill unnecessary and unproductive. Criminal conduct authorisations, from a human rights perspective, must first consider whether the exceptional power to authorise crimes to be committed without redress is truly necessary for all these public authorities.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Monday 11th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure yet again to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. I support Amendments 1 and 2 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Chakrabarti and Lady Moulsecoomb, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick; and I too am a signatory to Amendment 1. Amendment 2 seeks to preserve the current legal status quo, whereby those authorised to engage in criminal activity are not rendered immune from either civil or criminal liability. Instead, compliance with an authorisation will be relevant to any public interest consideration to prosecute, any existing legal defences and any court considerations as to civil liability and/or damages.

I feel that the existing legislation that we are debating seeks on the one hand to regulate in statute the use of covert human intelligence sources and, on the other hand, gives CHIS and their handlers a licence to kill. The recruitment of agents is undeniably necessary as part of intelligence-led policing; any such recruit should be a fit person, properly recruited, with free and informed consent and operating to human rights standards in police-led operations.

I listened very carefully to the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti. I recall saying in Committee that Northern Ireland has a particular experience to note in this whole area of using handlers and agents—not police officers but agents—and some of them were linked to criminal and paramilitary activities. We are a living example of what happens when the state, or the state through its agents, commits serious crimes, including murder. For that reason, I make a special plea to the Minister to consider these amendments and the Bill as currently drafted and to ensure that all protections are put in place to prevent any nefarious activity and any misuse of activity by handlers.

One example is the continuing investigation into the agent known as Stakeknife. Probably dozens were murdered on the instructions of those in command and control of the IRA with the knowledge and approval of those in command and control of a British security agent. Another example is Ken Barrett, a British agent involved in the murder of the lawyer Pat Finucane, which a former British Prime Minister, David Cameron, conceded had involved shocking levels of collusion—a fact reiterated at the end of November by Brandon Lewis, the current Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. There is also the example of Mark Haddock, an RUC Special Branch agent believed to have been involved in more than 20 murders.

I say to the Minister that Northern Ireland is a lesson from history, which the Government should take heed of in respect of the Bill. Serious crimes and murder committed by state agencies, or the agents of the state, lead first to a generation of victims and survivors, secondly to alienation, and thirdly to conflict. Yet this legislation, as drafted, would allow agents to commit serious crimes with extravagant powers given to handlers and a severe deficit in relation to authorisation and post-operational accountability. Hence the need for Amendments 1 and 2 to curb such illegal activity and to ensure that those who commit crimes are not immune from prosecution.

It is worth remembering that one of the 175 recommendations on new policing arrangements in Northern Ireland back in 1999—accepted but not addressed—was:

“There should be a commissioner for covert law enforcement in Northern Ireland.”


Maybe it is time to give this consideration now if the Government insist on pressing ahead with the Bill unamended. The noble Lords, Lord Dubs and Lord Rosser, referred to the need for prior oversight; this is one avenue that would facilitate prior oversight, albeit in the Northern Ireland context. As a result, there is no dedicated Northern Ireland covert oversight agency, and the UK arrangements to interrogate phone tapping or search authorisations should be more extensive.

I believe—I say this rather advisedly—that this legislation compounds the problem, with even less oversight of the authorisations that would arise under its provisions than is the case currently. The Bill is deeply problematic, and it could work against the need to tackle criminality and paramilitarism. Hence the need to ensure that those authorised to engage in activities are not rendered immune from prosecution, and hence the need for both amendments, calmly presented by the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, which I urge the Minister to accept. I hope that the Minister can respond in favourable and positive terms. I support both amendments and, if pressed to a vote, I will support them.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 3, which seeks to ensure that victims of criminal conduct carried out under CCAs can access compensation. My noble friend Lord Dubs has covered this amendment comprehensively, so I will simply add a few words of support. Like my noble friend Lord Dubs, I speak as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, whose legislative scrutiny report on the Bill was published last November. I am pleased that the Government have published their response to that report today. We shall no doubt refer to it during our deliberations on the Bill.

This amendment relates to paragraphs 104, 107, 108 and 110 of the Joint Committee on Human Rights report. Its purpose relates to rights under the European Convention on Human Rights, and it mirrors the system in Australia which

“provides indemnification for any participant who incurs civil liability in the course of an undercover operation”,

as described in paragraph 110 of the Joint Committee on Human Rights report. It states:

“The effect of this provision would be to ensure that the participant (i.e. the CHIS) would not suffer the consequences of civil liability, but it would also ensure that the victim of the conduct would obtain civil redress while secrecy is maintained.”


I think the amendment is clear and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I do not wish to address at any length the various competing amendments that are being suggested. Speaking for myself, I believe that pre-authorisation in one of the forms suggested is the obvious way forward. I have absolute confidence in the ability of the judicial commissioners to assess and make a judgment and, although I have much sympathy with the view that things are better now than they were in the past, we simply cannot ignore past experience, as we are constantly reminded.

As my second choice, I would go for real-time notification. I tabled Amendment 34—this is the subject on which I wish to speak—to clarify the position as to what happens if, after notification, the judicial commissioner expresses the view, or says, “This should not have happened.” It is clear from the way the Bill is drafted that, as the term “notification” is used, everything that is done prior to any decision by the judicial commissioner would remain authorised. The amendment proceeds on that basis and seeks to make that clear. However, what then happens if the judicial commissioner says, “Well, this should not have been granted”? It is very important when we try to clarify the law and put it on a statutory basis that we do not engage in a fudge. The word “notification” is used deliberately to provide for notification, but it simply does not say what happens when the commissioner makes a decision. This amendment makes it very clear that, if the judicial commissioner says that this should not have been authorised, then, subject to unwinding under a degree of judicial supervision, the activity must stop.

I have had very helpful discussions. I pay tribute to the Minister for organising this and to the officials who have been clear in some of their views. However, it has been explained to me that, in these circumstances, it is thought that, if the activity has not started, it would stop; but if it has started, it must be for the authorising officer to consider what to do. This is plainly not good enough. First, the judicial commissioner is not giving advice but making a determination; although not they are not sitting as a judge, it is as close to a judicial decision as you can get. Secondly, if the judicial commissioner says that this should not have been granted, can the authorising officer say that he is acting lawfully by going on with the activity? Thirdly, in those circumstances, is the officer at risk of committing the offence of misconduct in public office? It would be extraordinarily difficult to see how he could continue. What happens during the process of a criminal trial if a person continues in such circumstances? Does all this have to be disclosed?

Worst of all, what is to happen when the Investigatory Powers Commissioner publishes in his report that he said, “This should not have been granted” but the police or security services went on with it? As I understand it, the justification for opposing this, or saying that it is unnecessary, is, first, that the judicial commissioner is not making a decision but merely giving advice. With respect, that is pure sophistry. Secondly, it is said that you cannot have unwinding under judicial control as judges are not experienced in this sort of matter. I ask those who have doubts about the ability of judges to protect people to read the decision to which I was a party in a case called WV in 2011. In respect of a person who provided very valuable information to the police, the judiciary had to act to protect the person concerned, but in circumstances where in no way could that person be identified.

Therefore, it seems that the question of this amendment is straightforward. If a police officer or a member of the security services who has granted authorisation continues and does not accede to the judge’s decision, this says that we are a country that does not abide by the rule of law. In my respectful submission, it would be very difficult to see how this could be judged internally and it would do our security services great damage if it related to something overseas.

However, as this last remark shows, what I fear for in this is the damage that continuing with activity if the judicial commissioner says no will do to the security services. If the Minister opposes this amendment, I would ask her to set out what is to happen; we cannot leave this point undealt with. If it is possible, I ask her to deal with three of the main scenarios. If no activity has happened, surely the activity must not proceed. If activity has started, it must be stopped and unwound. I would hope for an assurance that, once the views of the judicial commissioner have been expressed, the activity would not go on.

This amendment seeks to deal with a subject that may be uncomfortable for people to face up to: that you have an authorising officer who says, “Yes, I think this is all right” and then a judge says, “No, it wasn’t.” We need clarity. When you think about this question, it shows the dangers of not having pre-judicial authorisation in a system. I suspect what will happen—this is why it is a great pity that we have not been able to go into this in much more detail with examples of what actually happens—is that once a judge says, “This should not have been granted” we will probably gradually move to a system of pre-authorisation.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I very much enjoyed the previous speech, which gave me much information about a great number of things. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas.

My noble friend Lord Dubs has set out the parameters of Amendments 5 and 23 and my noble friend Lord Rosser has made incisive comments on them. I will add just a few comments in support of my noble friend’s arguments. Basically, the issues in the amendments are covered in Chapter 7 of the Joint Committee on Human Rights report on CHIS, entitled “Adequacy of oversight mechanisms”—surely absolutely essential. The Joint Committee had several concerns about this part of the Bill.

First, the Bill does not suggest any independent scrutiny of criminal conduct authorisations before they are made and acted upon. Secondly, the process of granting CCAs will be kept under review by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner in the oversight of CCAs after the event. He or she will not be informed of the authorisations at the time they are made, so how can prompt scrutiny take place? It is worth repeating those points, which were made by my noble friend Lord Dubs.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights report quotes Sir Desmond de Silva’s report on the death of Patrick Finucane. He accepts as legitimate the running of agents within terrorist groups as at the heart of tackling terrorism but says that the

“agent-running must be carried out within a rigorous framework. The system itself must be so structured as to ensure adequate oversight and accountability.”

Those conclusions are consistent w\ith the requirements of human rights law. There must be effective safeguards against abuse. The question is: does the Bill provide that rigorous framework of oversight and accountability? The amendments query that. In its submission to the JCHR, the law reform and human rights organisation Justice said that the Bill is

“extremely limited in its oversight mechanisms”

and that its safeguards were “woefully inadequate”.

The draft code of practice published with the Bill describes how the CCA practice will operate. Only a designated officer within a public authority may make a CCA, and this must be made in writing unless urgent.

Oversight of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner —who must be a senior judicial figure, of course— applies to CCAs. The IPC has the powers to conduct investigations, inspections and audits, but these are oversight functions only. The IPC does not have the capacity to investigate every time a CCA is used. The IPC role is restricted to covering the use of the power to grant CCAs in the annual report to the Prime Minister. This can be redacted before going before Parliament.

Reprieve has said:

“Once more, the oversight powers in this Bill are far weaker than those operated by the UK’s intelligence partners. The FBI has repeatedly released details of the number of crimes committed by its agents as part of efforts to increase transparency over the use of this power.”


There is currently a lack of prior independent scrutiny or approval for CCAs, as described in the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. This contrasts with, for example, police search warrants and phone tapping.

The Bill requires amendment—and these amendments in particular—to remedy this lack of prior judicial approval for CCAs, with provision for urgent cases, and I strongly support Amendments 5 and 23.

[Lord Cormack (Con) [V]]

My Lords, for the second time today, I have the great pleasure of following the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, and I am delighted to do so.

There seems to be a degree of consensus among those who have spoken so far. We all believe that oversight at a high level is essential. I have signed the lead amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and I meant to sign Amendment 23, but something went wrong—it certainly must have been my fault—and his amendments offer one route forward. I have joined forces with my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft to offer an alternative: the Secretary of State. I do not have terribly strong feelings as to whether the oversight should be judicial or conducted by the Secretary of State, but they could be complementary—they are not incompatible—and the excellent amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, are certainly not incompatible with Amendments 5 and 23, as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out, having signed all three himself. When we are dealing with matters of life, death and the country’s security, we do not want what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, fears—fudge rather than clarity, as he advocated with particular clarity.

I have a suggestion, and I hope that my noble friend the Minister will take it seriously. She has been very kind in making officials available to many of us. I have much enjoyed the discussions I have had, which have mostly focused on young people being used as CHIS; we will come to that later in our debate. She has been very helpful, as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said. I would like her to talk personally to the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Dubs, probably on one of these ghastly Zoom calls where they can all talk together. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, and the noble Lord, Lord Hain, should also certainly be included. I would like to come out of this an amendment which the Minister can table and introduce at Third Reading, incorporating the best features of all the amendments before us this evening.

Oversight at a high level is essential to create public and parliamentary confidence. Whether that high level is judicial or the Secretary of State, I have a reasonably open mind, but it is important that we try to reach a consensus, so that the Bill commands parliamentary and public confidence and we do not have the sort of fudge the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, feared but, instead, the clarity he so brilliantly advocated.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to have finally entered the debate, and delighted that this important Bill is now with us. The Minister, colleagues and those working with domestic abuse clearly feel the same. There has also been extensive feedback on the issue of domestic abuse in public consultations. The voluntary sector for children, women and families has co-ordinated superbly to provide expertise and argument. The process has been good, and all this has added to the quality and credibility of the Bill and this excellent debate.

I shall focus my remarks on issues related to children, which includes teenagers, who are still children under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. We need to listen to children, whose stories can reveal urgent issues that may need good practice.

Last summer, a round-table meeting was held at your Lordships’ House to discuss the Domestic Abuse Bill in relation to children. It was attended by Members from all Benches of your Lordships’ House, and many charities. We recognised that children’s services are under severe pressure, as indeed they were before the Covid epidemic. A Women’s Aid survey found that 60% of service providers have needed to reduce or cancel their services for children. The charity Refuge has reported a 700% rise in calls to its helpline. Child abuse cases have soared, as have cases of domestic violence. The impact of this on children will be enormous in relation to their future relationships, educational attainment, risks of exploitation, mental health and other issues.

I turn to the issue of teenage relationships abuse. Currently, the Bill defines domestic abuse as acts taking place between people over the age of 16. Research shows that abuse can and does take place at a younger age. The draft statutory guidance to the Bill recognises that teenage relationship abuse takes place at similar rates to that in the adult population and that specialist support, different from adult services, is needed. However, abuse between teenagers is counted as child abuse and thus relies on the current child protection system, which was designed to protect children from abuse within the home. Teenage relationship abuse is not defined in statute, nor does it appear in national guidance, which means that it is not picked up in child protection systems.

Surveys of young people, when they were asked if they recognised an abusive relationship, showed that over 50% said that they could not. Some schools have addressed the issue of such abuse and schools are now obliged to teach about relationships and sex education, which is progress. Children need to be helped to understand relationships, including abusive ones. But it is a difficult issue to tackle without services that can recognise and give help with the problem. Research from the Children’s Society found that only 39% of local authorities provide specialist support for the under-16s. Children who are abused in a relationship, sexual or otherwise, may well be damaged for life without adequate intervention.

The Government have recognised that children who experience domestic abuse within their families are victims of abuse in their own right, and that is good. Now, teenage relationship abuse needs to be addressed within the Bill. Separate statutory guidance on teenage relationship abuse is needed. It must include early intervention, prevention, and referral to specialist support for those abused and for the perpetrators. This is dangerous territory that needs to be urgently navigated in order to avoid serious damage, just like earlier interventions in issues related to children. I hope that the Minister, whose stamina I greatly admire, can give assurances on this, and I look forward to her response to this excellent debate.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 3rd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group pose the important question of when and why the Government should allow people to commit a crime and grant them full legal immunity for it. The Government need to justify granting such a broad legal immunity. They are calling it wrong. I understand why they are doing this: there is a court case at the moment that will influence the outcome of this particular manoeuvre, and there is the inquiry, which I hope will have some tough recommendations when it comes to an end. Personally, I would rather that the granting of immunity was restricted to serious crimes only, as set out in the amendment of the noble Lords, Lord Hendy and Lord Paddick, because that would strike a more reasonable balance between the risks inherent in this criminal authorisation and the types of crime it is being used to fight. When you look at past mistakes, you have to ask, what was the crime the Lawrence family was suspected of committing or being about to commit? What was the point of that? Can that happen again? Yes, of course it can, and it can happen to innocent people. We need to be aware of that when we pass the Bill, as we no doubt will.

Then there is the issue of preventing disorder, which my Amendment 24 seeks to address. This is something I care about a lot, because I go on a lot of demonstrations, protests and campaigns. I am out there, on the streets, and you could argue that I am creating disorder. When I was arrested a few years ago—the only time I ever have been—you could argue that I was creating disorder. What I was actually doing was trying to get between the police and the protestors. I was saying things like, “Could we all calm down?” That is what I said when the senior police officer lost his temper and said, “Nick ’em all.” I feel that preventing disorder is an honourable thing to do, so we should think carefully about what disorder is. It is the Government’s duty to make sure that that is clear. “Preventing disorder” is far too broad a category for authorising criminal conduct.

If the disorder is so bad as to be criminal, it will already be captured in the prevention or detection of crime, but if it is not criminal, we are moving into the territory of peaceful protest and other legitimate gatherings. What is the justification for the state authorising people to commit criminal offences and giving full legal immunity in these cases?

Based on 2019 figures, at the moment in the UK there are more than 500 people who can authorise this sort of immunity for criminal conduct: 312 chief superintendents and 212 chief officers of other ranks. With 500 or so people who can authorise a crime and give immunity, you have to ask yourself: how many mistakes will those people make? And they will; they are going to make mistakes. I see some considerable scope for error in that. I really do not think that the words “preventing disorder” should be in the Bill. If the disorder is a crime then people can be arrested for it; if it is not, why on earth would we let someone else commit a crime to stop something that is not a crime? Perhaps the Minister can explain that to me.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, in speaking to Amendment 25, I shall put the views expressed by the Joint Committee on Human Rights in Chapter 5 of its report on the Bill. I am a member of that committee.

The amendment seeks to limit the use of criminal conduct authorisations to protecting national security and preventing crime. The JCHR report accepts that authorising criminal conduct may, in certain circumstances,

“be necessary and proportionate in the interests of national security or for the purpose of preventing or detecting serious crime.”

These were the purposes considered by the Investigatory Powers Tribunal when it approved MI5’s policy in the third direction challenge, and are the purposes highlighted by the Home Office in the Explanatory Notes. However, the Bill also permits CCAs to be made for the purpose of preventing disorder and for the economic well-being of the United Kingdom, as was mentioned before. The report says:

“It is difficult to understand why it is necessary to include ‘preventing disorder’ as a potential justification for authorising criminal conduct. Serious disorder would amount to a crime … and therefore be covered by the purpose of ‘preventing crime’. Any non-criminal disorder would not be serious enough to justify the use of criminality to prevent it.”


The NGOs Reprieve, the Pat Finucane Centre, Privacy International, the Committee on the Administration of Justice, Rights and Security International and Big Brother Watch raised concerns that the Bill could allow for CCAs to be granted in relation to

“the activities of Trade Unions, anti-racism campaigns and environmental campaigns that have been the site of illegitimate CHIS activity in the past.”

The report concludes:

“The purposes for which criminal conduct can be authorised should be limited to national security and the detection or prevention of crime”


and that

“the power to authorise criminal conduct as contained in the Bill is far too extensive”.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, whose name appears next on the list, has withdrawn, and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, unfortunately did not join the debate remotely at the start. I therefore call the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan of Partick.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB) [V]]

My Lords, these amendments have at their heart the question of whether there should be a list of offences which can never be authorised. The Government say not, claiming that countries which have such lists do not experience the same type of criminality that we do, especially in Northern Ireland; that to have such a list would mean that CHIS were tested against it; and that the Human Rights Act provides sufficient protection in any event. Despite the briefings which the Minister and the Security Minister have kindly arranged for me, I am afraid that I am yet to be fully convinced.

First, I wonder whether the nature of serious crime in this country is really so different from that in Canada, Australia or the US, each of which has some sort of list. Northern Ireland is mentioned, but given historical experience, it might be thought that the public reassurance given by a list would be of particular value in Northern Ireland. The principled objection to a list is rather diminished by the fact that the new Section 29B(10)(a) will empower the Secretary of State to create just such a list in secondary legislation. This, however, is no merely technical or topical concern, such as might justify the Government in reacting on the hoof to some future scandal. The content of the list is surely something that Parliament should consider coolly in advance, and not just to debate but to amend.

As for the Human Rights Act, it is unfortunate that there seems to be no easy way for the police or anyone else to translate what the Government characterise as its protections into clear and comprehensible operational advice. I have a good deal of sympathy with each of the various points made by the Joint Committee on Human Rights in chapter 4 of its report, some of which have already been echoed in this debate. Though I do not repeat them here, I very much hope that, before Report, we will see a detailed and convincing response to all of them. Included in that, I suggest, should be a fuller explanation of paragraphs 14 to 16 of the ECHR memorandum, which has, perhaps understandably, generated a degree of concern.

What of the argument based on the testing of CHIS? The more I think about this, the less I understand it. Suppose that we amend the Bill to say, “CHIS cannot be authorised to rape.” Suppose then that the gang asks an individual to rape and that the individual refuses. What does that tell the gang? One possibility is that the individual simply has scruples that he is unwilling to set aside. Another is that he may be a CHIS whose authorisation does not stretch as far as rape or who has been advised by his handler not to rape. Whether or not the crime of rape features on a prohibited list has no bearing on the issue, unless one assumes, absurdly, that every CHIS will be authorised to commit all types of crime not on the prohibited list and will make full use of that authorisation whenever the opportunity presents itself. The reality surely is that CHIS will continue to be authorised in only limited respects, no doubt falling far short of sexual crime, and that a refusal to rape, murder and torture cannot, therefore, be a meaningful indicator of CHIS status.

It is hard to understand why a short list, bearing no relation to the types of crime that will routinely be authorised, should increase the risk to a CHIS or make it more likely that he will be successfully outed as a CHIS by the criminal group in which he is embedded. If public reassurance requires it to be known that undercover police may not form intimate relationships, as it evidently does, then why should it not be known that CHIS cannot be authorised to commit—at least—the trio of torture, murder or rape mentioned in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack? I look forward to any guidance that the Minister can give on this point. This is important stuff, and if the Government are right, we really need to understand why.

I venture to suggest that the extensive powers in the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 were endorsed by Parliament because they were accompanied by equally strong safeguards, and also because the agencies and others were prepared to go to unprecedented lengths to explain why they were needed. They explained their case fully and frankly, at a detailed operational level, to trusted interlocutors such as the team that produced the bulk powers review in 2016 under my leadership. They also explained it as fully as they properly could to Parliament and the public as a whole. I hope that that lesson has been fully learned, because, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, has already indicated, it may be needed on this Bill too.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 56 on behalf of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am a member. This report was derived from consultations with many knowledgeable and concerned participants. My noble friend Lord Dubs, also a member of that committee, has already contributed significantly to these debates. Unfortunately, he is otherwise engaged this afternoon in unavoidable commitments, but I hope that he will be here to present Amendments 39 and 63.

Amendment 56 establishes a prohibition on the authorisation of serious criminal offences in similar terms to those appearing in the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act 1985. The Joint Committee on Human Rights expressed concern that even the most serious offences, such as rape, murder, sexual abuse of children and torture, which necessarily violated basic human rights, were not excluded on the face of this Bill. Noble Lords today and previously have expressed grave concerns about this issue. The Home Office considered this necessary because it feared it created a checklist for suspected CHIS to be tested against. The Government’s position is that the Human Rights Act provides a guarantee against certain criminal conduct. However, it is noted in paragraph 40 of our report that, if a criminal gang or terrorist group were familiar enough with the relevant legislation to test a CHIS against it, they would presumably be equally able to test them against the guarantees of protections set out in the Human Rights Act. The committee did not consider it appropriate to legislate by providing open-ended powers while relying on the Human Rights Act as a safety net.

The report noted that the Human Rights Act has not prevented previous human rights violations by undercover investigators, or CHIS. For example, the Human Rights Act was in force for much of the period when undercover police officers from the National Public Order Intelligence Unit were engaging in intimate relations with women involved in the group that they had infiltrated. The committee also noted that other countries with similar legislation, including Canada, the US and Australia, had expressly ruled out CCAs ever enabling the most serious offences. I realise that this has been referred to before today. The report therefore concluded:

“There appears to be no good reason why the Bill cannot state clearly that certain offences or categories of offences are incapable of authorisation.”

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

The next speaker on the list, the Lord Bishop of Carlisle, has, sadly, withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Dubs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 48 tabled in my name and support all those who have spoken in favour of limiting the use of children as CHIS. The reason for putting forward Amendment 48 is to try to probe the thinking of the Government on the relationship between the provisions of the Bill with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. How does my noble friend the Minister believe that they can square the use of children as CHIS with the provisions of that convention?

I endorse and support entirely the comments of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham and I thank him for so eloquently moving his Amendment 43. I congratulate the other noble Lords who supported his amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, has tabled Amendment 51, which would build on the thinking that I have put forward in my probing amendment about how the UN convention could apply in this regard.

My noble friend Lord Young referred to one of the four general principles that are set out in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child—Article 3, establishing what is in the best interests of the child. I support that view entirely; it is difficult how using children as covert intelligence sources can be squared as being within the best interests of the child, as opposed to the wider and broader interests of the community. I also have regard to the three other general principles of the UN convention: Article 2, on non-discrimination; Article 6, on the right to life, survival and development; and Article 12, on the right to be heard. In summing up this debate, can my noble friend the Minister indicate how a child’s voice, particularly one who may be as young as 15, in the instances that we are considering, in this part of the Bill, is heard before they are asked to operate as covert human intelligence sources?

I support entirely the comments made by others that children are particularly vulnerable in this regard. They may not understand what is being asked of them. Are they in a position to ask what the implications are for their future, and how their actions might be interpreted? Are they actually in a position where they could refuse to act, if it has been explained to them, when they are being asked to act in a particular way? It is difficult to understand the circumstances in which this might be explained to a child aged 15, 16 or 17—how their conduct might benefit our society, but also how it might be of harm to themselves.

I support this group of amendments. I have tabled Amendment 48 as a probing amendment, because I believe that the provisions of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child apply here. If that can be achieved by one of the other amendments in this group, I will be extremely happy. I urge my noble friend to put my mind at rest by indicating how what the Government are seeking to do through this Bill by using children as CHIS can be squared with the provisions to which I have referred in the UN convention.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I agree with so many of the remarks made today by noble Lords following the powerful and moving opening speech by the noble Lord, Lord Young. I declare my interests as being involved with several voluntary sector organisations and all-party groups for children, and as a rapporteur on children’s rights issues in the Council of Europe.

Amendment 51, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Dubs, is based on the findings reflected in Chapter 5 of the Joint Committee on Human Rights report on the Bill. The amendment would prohibit the authorisation of criminal conduct by children without specific prior judicial approval. The Bill provides only for the authorisation of criminal conduct by a CHIS and does not make a distinction between adults and children, nor is any distinction drawn between adults and children for the purposes of CCAs within the revised CHIS code of practice. The JCHR report found that:

“It is hard to see how the involvement of children in criminal activity, and certainly serious criminal activity, could comply with the State’s obligations under the HRA and under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child … in anything other than the most exceptional circumstances. Article 3 UNCRC”,


which has already been quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Young,

“provides that: ‘In all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.’”

The best interests of the child must be at the core of all our concerns.

The JCHR report concludes:

“Deliberately involving children in the commission of criminal offences could only comply with Article 3 UNCRC or Article 8 ECHR in the most exceptional cases.”


The amendment provides protection against the authorisation of criminal conduct by children in unexceptional cases. It would require prior judicial approval before the granting of a CCA in respect of the conduct of a child in the limited circumstances in which judicial approval would be forthcoming—that is, only where the undercover operation is for the purpose of saving lives or preventing serious physical or mental harm.

I want to add some remarks based on my own experiences and interests that extend the issues expressed in the JCHR report. Children are often characterised as “young” under 16, but the UNCRC and the World Health Organization stipulate that anyone under 18 is a child. That puts an extra dimension on things. We also know that children are not a homogeneous group. Some will be vulnerable. As has been said, they may be subject to having been used for all manner of purposes. They are at significant risk already. This is a very important issue.

The UNCRC is clear about the rights of the child in its 42 articles. For example, Article 36 says that children shall be protected from any activities that could harm their development. Article 12 says that the child’s right to a voice when adults are making decisions is paramount. Child refugees have the same rights as children born in that country. Children have the right to get and share information, as long as that information is not damaging to them or others. That applies to all children. I ask the Minister to convince me that sufficient care is given to the stipulation that the best interests of the child are paramount and to provide some examples of how that care works in practice—for example, about who is consulted as to the appropriateness of a child being involved.

I want to repeat the reference that the noble Lord, Lord Young, made to the Children’s Commissioner; he made a very powerful statement. As she recently said, she suggests that she remains to be convinced that there is ever an appropriate situation in which a child should be used as a CHIS. She has called for a full investigation to take place into the use of children in such circumstances and believes that the current legislative framework should be amended to protect children’s rights. I agree totally. Child impact assessments are always useful. Many of us in this House, and in Parliament generally, have been calling for that for some time. Wales has integrated the UNCRC into its legislation and Scotland is discussing a Bill to do so. When will England do the same?

Before Report, will the Minister meet those of us concerned about child rights, including protection, in relation to the Bill? Can she produce reassuring evidence that children are not being exploited? If that evidence is not forthcoming, the amendment will certainly need strengthening.

[Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, when I originally looked at this Bill and thought about it in relation to children, I felt that there might be some justification for using children as CHIS in the most exceptional circumstances. I am now doing something that is not very fashionable. I am changing my mind in the light of what I have heard in the debate so far, especially from my noble friend Lady Massey and the noble Lord, Lord Young. I now believe that there should be no circumstances in which children should be part of this process. It is wrong and cannot be justified. The highest standards of human rights would be fully met if we said that children should be totally exempt. There should never be any circumstances in which the end would justify the means. I have been persuaded by the argument. Maybe one does not often admit this publicly, but I am prepared to do so here and now.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for having to be absent for much of the debate due to a clash with a meeting of our Joint Committee on Human Rights. I regret missing the maiden speeches apart from that of the Minister, whom I congratulate on his aplomb during it.

I shall therefore be brief. I am sure that noble Lords will have covered wisely and in detail the points of contention. I want to state what the chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Harriet Harman MP, said in a press release to its recent report:

“This Bill raises major human rights concerns … There should be added to the Bill clear limits on the scale and type of criminality which can be authorised. We cannot pass a law that leaves open the possibility of state-sanctioned rape, murder or torture … The power to authorise crime should be restricted to the public authorities whose role it is to combat serious crime and protect national security and not include bodies such as the Food Standards Agency or the Gambling Commission.”


I just want to emphasise a few points that concern me. First, the Joint Committee on Human Rights report points out that the authorised criminal offences have the potential to interfere with several qualified and absolute rights, including those guaranteed by the European Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Act 1998. Secondly, the Bill contains no specific limits on the criminal conduct that can be authorised. Thirdly, and very importantly, no distinction is made between adults and children for the purposes of CCAs within the revised CHIS code of practice. This would be a serious breach of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, an international treaty and therefore legally binding on ratifying countries—the UK ratified the UNCRC in 1990. My noble friend Lord Haskel and others have spoken about this intolerable situation. The rights of the child are paramount, as reflected in the UNCRC. There must be no compromise on this, and the age of a child is 18 and under, not 16 as the Government seem to think.

The Bill does not include provisions for victims of authorised criminal conduct. The Bill needs additional safeguards to ensure that there can be no authorisation for serious criminality. Many agencies, including Reprieve and Justice, and the Bar Council have suggested changes that could be introduced to the Bill. They and the Joint Committee on Human Rights have similar concerns. I therefore hope the Government will take note. I look forward to hearing the Minister.

Covid-19: Child Trafficking

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Tuesday 29th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The Government see it as very important that we continue not only to share such data but to have access to it. To that end, it is a top priority going forward.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I am concerned about the child victims of trafficking who are coerced into illegal activities, such as working in cannabis factories. These children may be caught and prosecuted, while those who run the factories escape. How will our overstretched children’s services support such victims in these challenging times?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Baroness will recall that, through the Modern Slavery Act 2015, the Government introduced the statutory defence for victims of modern slavery to protect those really vulnerable people who would previously have been unfairly prosecuted, as she said, for crimes that they were forced to commit by their exploiters—notably, as she mentioned, in cannabis cultivation.

Covid-19: Human Trafficking

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, whether we have a points-based system or not, people who work in our agricultural sector should be protected from exploitation by unscrupulous people who might employ them. Therefore, I cannot see that our points-based system will have a particular effect, but we should always be on guard against people who might exploit those vulnerable to it.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, before Covid-19 child migrants were already vulnerable to trafficking and suffered problems with health and social care. Could the Minister say what extra support for such children is now available at a local level, and how it will be monitored?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness points to something that we have been very mindful of throughout this lockdown period. I did not quite hear what she said about whom we might support. Was she talking about vulnerable children?

[Baroness Massey of Darwen [V]]

Yes, vulnerable children.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Absolutely, we have been very mindful of the vulnerability of children in all sorts of ways, whether it is from the effects of domestic abuse, online malicious intervention or drugs and gangs. We have secured £1.73 million for charities to provide emergency support to victims, and we have provided a further £1.4 million this year to continue our dedicated funding for the police to tackle modern slavery under the new modern slavery and organised immigration crime programme. This year, we will invest £7 million to safeguard victims of modern slavery.

Brexit: Child Refugees

Baroness Massey of Darwen Excerpts

Monday 8th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

Order. We will hear a short question from the Liberal Democrats and then from the Labour Benches.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I understand the point the noble Baroness makes, and I will certainly look into it. We have tried to make the process less bureaucratic. I agree that something as simple as a spelling mistake should not debar someone from coming to this country.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

My Lords, to follow up the question from my noble friend Lord Dubs, would the Minister agree that children in refugee camps and hot spots are suffering the most degrading conditions? They are living without separate toilets. They are living in dirt, without education or legal advice. Would she also agree that this problem is partly to do with lack of co-ordination between the nations of Europe to help these children to a better life? What are the British Government doing to help that co-ordination?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly agree that the situation of children in camps is most undesirable. Children should be placed in a safe location where their welfare is met. We work with the French Government and other Governments to ensure that we meet any obligations that we have. During the Calais clearance we worked very closely with the authorities there to ensure children’s requests were processed.