West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 13th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, the arguments about local democracy being completely ignored have been very professionally made by previous speakers. I follow the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in her assessment. What is the point of consultation if the Government ignore it?

The Government’s argument, in their response to the local consultation, was that

“mayors who exercise PCC functions have wider levers”

to join up delivery in tackling crime and securing public safety. If that were the case, West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester would have lower levels of crime than the West Midlands and those areas without combined mayors and PCCs, but if you look at the figures, it is exactly the opposite. Last year, the average crime rate per 1,000 population in England and Wales was 93.6 crimes per 1,000 population; Greater Manchester’s was 129.7 per 1,000 population, and West Yorkshire’s was even higher at 138.8; the West Midlands was below both of them. Therefore, the Government’s response, that having these roles combined makes places safer with less crime, is shot by the Government’s own statistics. What metrics are the Government using to say that these combined roles create less crime and make people safer?

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Bach, despite not liking regret amendments, which are a legislative equivalent of saying “tut-tut”. What is the point? I also do not like the police and crime commissioner system. It is not as well overseen as the previous system of local police committees and was yet another government mistake. However, I will vote for the regret amendment.

The Green Party was opposed to police and crime commissioners because we feel that police forces should be supervised and accountable to elected local government. It is more immediate and more responsive with councillors.

However, it could be said of most police and crime commissioners at the moment that, although it is an elected position, as far as politics is concerned, they are semi-skimmed—they are rather thin milk. They are independent—often former police officers, even a priest—and they have used their expertise to serve their communities. Transferring those powers to an elected mayor, especially over such a large, combined pair of authorities will turn these functions into the hands of one single full-fat politician. That is simply too much power in one pair of hands. The move towards directly elected mayors and these mega-authorities is already combining too many powers into one executive who is subject to very little scrutiny. That is one of the really big problems with this.

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 12th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, mine is a different point. I am not sympathetic to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Howard, has just made. On Report, I raised the question of representations by the Government of Jersey and our Government’s failure to consult before including a provision in the Bill. I do not know whether this also represents the view of Guernsey and the Isle of Man, but the Government of Jersey said that they were not happy about it. I asked the Minister if he could clarify the position at Third Reading. Can he do so?

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howard, said that no one else has put forward another idea. In fact, many of us have talked about finding safe and legal routes. This Government seem incredibly reluctant to do this. I do not understand why. This Bill is an absolute stinker. It is the worst of the worst. I have seen terrible Bills come through this House, but this is by far the worst. It is a shame on all of us that we have had to sit through hours and days of debate.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, has made a plea on behalf of Members in another place. Will they have available to them the Government’s response to the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights which I asked for in Committee, on Report and again today? The Minister will recall that, last week, he said it was imminent. I hope he will be able to tell us that it is now available in the Printed Paper Office and that it will be made available to honourable Members down the Corridor.

I have a great deal of respect for the Minister and like him enormously. All of us agree with the noble Lord, Lord Howard, that there is an issue that has to be addressed. Some 114 million people are displaced in the world today. When will His Majesty’s Government bring together people from all sides of the House and the political divide to look at what can be done to tackle this problem at its root cause? Unless we do that, we can pass as many Bills as we like in this and in the other place but, frankly, in the end, it will make very little difference.

Former Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration: Reports

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 6th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Government got confused and in a bit of a mess about assessing the age of many people coming into the country. Further to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, how can the Government be sure that the number of primary school-age children is accurate, according to their judgment?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be aware, there are a number of different views on this. Age assessments go both ways. I was reading of a case earlier where a number of children requested that one of their number who had been imposed on them be looked into because the said person was significantly older than he appeared to be, and that was found to be the case. It works both ways.

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 4th March 2024 Lords Chamber

I suggest to your Lordships that, in resolving to decide this issue for itself, the Supreme Court was trespassing on the province of the Executive. If there is any breach of the principle of separation of powers in this matter, it is not the Government who are guilty but the Supreme Court. All the Government are doing in the Bill is to reassert their responsibility, as traditionally understood by the principle of the separation of powers, for executive decision-making. There is a reason why it is the Government and not the courts who have that responsibility: because it is the Government and not the courts who are accountable. The courts are accountable to no one—they pride themselves on that—but accountability is at the heart of democracy. That is why the Government are fully entitled to bring forward the Bill and why much of the criticism directed at them for doing so is, for the reasons I have given, fundamentally misconceived. That is why I oppose these amendments.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, that is a very interesting speech but what we are being asked to do here is to vote on an opinion. The noble Lord knows that most of us do not agree with that opinion. I will speak on the Bill only once today. I am deeply offended that it was ever brought to us. It is a mess of a Bill; it is illegal and nonsensical.

We in your Lordships’ House are being asked to indulge in pointless chatter for the whole day, and for another day. It is pointless chatter because, whatever we say, the Government will not listen to us. This is partly fuelled by the Labour Front Bench, which seems to be rewriting the Salisbury convention that we do not try to stop anything in the Government’s manifesto. In fact, the Labour Front Bench is now suggesting—it has been articulated on numerous occasions—that the Lords must not interfere with any legislation or decision by the Government or the Commons because they are elected and we are not. Then what is the point of your Lordships’ House?

The point is that we have centuries, possibly millennia, of experience and knowledge. We had the opportunity to stop this foolish Bill, but the Labour Front Bench decided that we would not and whipped its members to abstain. That is an abnegation of their responsibility, and I am horrified by it. It grieves me that they might win the election and then behave in the same way. I think they are hoping that the current Government are going to respond in kind and not block any Bills, but that is a false hope.

We Greens will vote for any amendments that come up today, but, quite honestly, we are wasting our time.

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

My Lords, I shall be extremely brief. Some important points have been made, but I want to focus on the exact drafting of Amendment 3, which is clearly central and what the vote will be about. The puzzling aspect is that new subsection (1B) makes the condition that

“the Secretary of State has considered all relevant evidence … and is satisfied that the Republic of Rwanda is a safe country for the processing of asylum and humanitarian protection claims”.

Fine, no problem, but then it goes on to say:

“before successful claimants are returned to the United Kingdom by request of the Secretary of State under Article 11(1) of the Rwanda Treaty”.

I have looked at Article 11(1), and it does not say that. It says:

“The United Kingdom may make a request for the return of a Relocated Individual”.


Paragraph 12(c) of the Explanatory Notes describes that as a response

“to the Supreme Court judgment by … Creating a mechanism for the UK to require the return of a Relocated Individual”.

Which is it? Does this provide for the Secretary of State to bring people back or, as the noble Baroness implied, is that the outcome that is the purpose of the whole thing? I think that is the case, but the language needs to be cleaned up, or perhaps the noble Baroness would confirm it so that we know what we are voting for.

Shamima Begum

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I would not use a term such as “export”. I point out to the noble Lord that the asylum seekers he is talking about have arrived in this country illegally from a safe country—a point that often gets neglected to be made by certain Benches. I have explained the justification. Do we expect other countries to take responsibility for UK-grown terrorist threats? No, we commit to working closely with our partners to reduce the risk that is posed to us, collectively, by foreign terrorists.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I am not very good on the rules of your Lordships’ Chamber—I admit that—but I would have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Ranger, raising gossip here in the House is not appropriate. Furthermore, Shamima Begum has been rendered stateless by this Government’s decision, simply because Pakistan says she has never lived there and never been a citizen—

[Noble Lords]

Bangladesh.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Sorry—I make mistakes. She is in fact stateless now.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid that I have to say again to the noble Baroness that the Court of Appeal found for the Government on all grounds.

Knife Crime: Violence Reduction Units

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 20th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises an interesting point. Of course, we keep all knife legislation under review, and noble Lords will be aware that moves have been made recently to ban, for example, zombie-style knives and machetes. Secondary legislation was laid in January, guidance will be available from 26 June and the ban will come into effect on 24 September. I will ensure that all forms of knives are kept very closely under review, particularly in view of patterns of use.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, obviously, large urban areas such as London have particular problems, and I would argue that there is a lot more crime. Are any comparative assessments being done so that each VRU can learn from others in all sorts of ways?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Yes, again, the noble Baroness raises a very good point. She is right, of course, that London has particular problems in this area. The activities of certain violence reduction units have absolutely influenced the way that the whole programme has been established across England and Wales—and indeed taking a lot of the lead from Scotland.

Protest Measures

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend raises some very good points. She is right that the simple fact of the matter is that recent protests have upped the temperature of protest. However, we have to remain proportionate, and I think this strikes the right balance.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I want to put it on record that I am appalled at the behaviour of the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, in climbing on the lions in Trafalgar Square. I think that is unacceptable. I have been on a lot of protests and I have never climbed on a war memorial or a lion. However, I agree with him in asking why on earth we are making this a criminal offence. All the officers I have spoken to—admittedly a small sample—have said that they do not need these powers and that they have enough powers. What these extra powers do is take away the discretion that they have in dealing with people, which is something they value because they do not want to be tied up in having to go off to the police station with loads of arrested people. Most of these measures are totally unnecessary. I completely support the firework ban; they are so environmentally polluting. But the Government cannot ban everything that they do not like; that is a mistake that some Governments get into, and that way lies a loss of democracy. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, the Minister said that facial recognition is for another day and it is not quite covered now. I argue that oversight of this is urgent, so in good time is not enough. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, said months back that this is a horse that has bolted out of its stable. We really have to find some way of making sure that the information is not passed out by the police, which it is in some cases now. Will the Minister think about bringing this in or discussing it urgently?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

On the noble Baroness’s latter point, those discussions are ongoing and will continue within the Home Office. I certainly raise the subject regularly, not least because I too am concerned about proportionality; I think it entirely right. I am of course aware that the Government cannot ban everything they do not like, much as it might sometimes be fun to do so. On war graves, cemeteries, war memorials and so on, the public outrage was fairly significant, and noted. It was clear that this offended a great many people from all parts of the community. I do not know which officers the noble Baroness spoke to, but they should have spoken to their boss, because he asked for these powers.

Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 29th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, finally we have it here. We have been waiting quite a long time for this Bill, and it is very irritating that it is so misleadingly named, because of course the Rwanda safety Bill is the opposite of what is: it should really have been called the “Rwanda Not Safe At All Bill”. It amounts to a stupid, messy, inhumane, cruel, immoral and idiotic way of thinking that you can solve the problem of migration like this.

The Government have created this problem by not putting in, for example, better safe, legal routes. There have been lots of answers coming from these Benches about other possibilities.

Sorry, did somebody speak to me? That is not on.

The Government have created this problem. They have thrown together something they call a solution that is not a solution at all.

It is the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, who keeps talking. Can the Whips have a word with him, please?

The Government have dishonoured both Houses by tabling the Bill and bringing it to us to debate. It was wrong to bring this Bill to us; it was wrong to develop it at all.

First, there is the title. Rwanda is not a safe country. We have heard that again and again from the courts. The UK has just accepted for asylum Rwandans who were in fear of persecution if they stayed in Rwanda. That does not sound very safe. Just because this Government say that it is safe does not make it safe. I have heard some ridiculous things from that side of the Chamber. I have heard some very good things, by the way, but also some quite ridiculous things about how Rwanda is safe. It really is not. Secondly, we will be in violation of an international treaty. Do we want to be seen as a country that cannot be trusted, that signs an agreement then backs out of it? I would have thought not.

This is an exceptional Bill which needs us here in your Lordships’ House to take exceptional action. Stopping a Government who have a track record for introducing draconian laws overruling our courts is what we are here for. It is our job. Today we are talking about the rights of refugees but, if your Lordships accept this Bill going through, what is to stop a Government with a big majority then disapplying other human rights? The path to a totalitarian state is not just the Government banning strikes and effective protests or restricting the right to vote—all of which have happened—it is Ministers pushing through laws that say, “This group of people deserve no human rights and the courts are banned from helping them seek justice”. Today it is refugees but tomorrow there will be another scapegoat to target. Some of them might be vile people doing horrible things but that is the point of human rights. Human rights are for all of us. They are there to defend everyone’s right to justice, whether they are saint or sinner, whether the Government like them or hate them.

Convention is on the side of rejecting the Bill. The Labour Front Bench does not like the Lords blocking what MPs have voted for, and I understand that we should use this power sparingly, but, as we have heard, Labour has done it. It had its own successful fatal Motion 11 years ago so I think that it could support today’s fatal amendment if Labour Members just held their noses. I am proud to say that last year the opposition parties joined together to beat the Government on the water pollution rules. A year before that, we rejected outright the 18 pages of government amendments restricting the right to protest and forced the Government to come back with new legislation.

The Rwanda Bill was not in the Conservative Party manifesto. Disapplying the Human Rights Act was not in the manifesto. Convention allows us to reject it. Also, as someone said, it will take us hours. We will be sitting here for a very long time and many of us probably do not have that many hours left and should think, “Is that how we want to spend them—fighting this Government, not winning and having all our amendments sent back?”, because that end of Parliament does not understand what we are here for. If the Prime Minister genuinely believes that this is the will of the people, he should call a general election. Please give the public a chance to have their say about this, about the PPE corruption and about the mess that the Government have deliberately made of the NHS.

I have talked to a lot of people outside your Lordships’ House. Some, of course, are concerned about the boats arriving, for all sorts of reasons. But on doorsteps, in streets, offices, shops and pubs, the talk is less of “Stop the boats” and much more of “Stop the Tories”.

Migrants: Barges

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 20th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

As I replied to the noble Baroness, that is a long way from the topic of infection on barges. The term of office of the chief inspector was time limited. It is clearly open to the Home Secretary not to renew the appointment.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, can the Minister explain this to me, because I have not really understood it? Presumably the Government instituted health checks before any migrants were put on that boat, so why was it only the Dorset Council review that threw up these very negative findings? If the Government did not know about this, why did they respond to it so quickly?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Because those health checks were the responsibility of Dorset.

Family Migration (Justice and Home Affairs Committee Report)

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 20th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Justice and Home Affairs Committee report covers a lot of territory and has clearly highlighted many of the real problems with government policy. Its recommendations are, I would say, very sensible—clearly, the Government do not agree with them.

There is one thing that perhaps the Minister can answer now. The committee called for increased funding towards Home Office services to overcome delays and to reduce application fees. We know that the problems we have with the cost of hotel stays and the barges are all down to the Government because they chose not to set up a proper system for all the asylum seekers. I do not see why they could not have taken some advice from this report. The Government’s response is really not very good, which suggests that whoever responded did not read the report properly.

We know that the Government’s treatment of asylum seekers has been abysmal. They have created a backlog that they cannot clear up in the available time before they are thrown out of government, and the next Government will have to do it for them. It is quite shameful that they leave such a mess behind them for the next Government to sort out.

If we put aside all the things that we should feel towards people in such distress—our compassion, humanity, respect for the law and respect for the welfare of anyone in Britain—we could at least look at the financial and economic benefits of immigration. With an ageing population, we need other people. By inhibiting access to this country for people who need to be here to look after their children and so on, the Government are denying the British public all the skills, experience and competence of those who could come here, work and be a benefit to the tax system. They could be taxpayers, and therefore they can benefit us; I do not understand why the Government have such a block about this.

The Minister is clearly a stupendously intelligent person. I wonder whether he has read the report and, if he has, whether he might have a slightly different response from the Government’s, which is quite inadequate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Of course.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Can the Minister write to me about the questions I asked?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

Maybe. No, of course I will.