Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Monday 11th July 2016 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 133A and 133B. The first of these would ensure transparency and adequate information about any innovation. The second is about open and transparent consultation. I hope that they both meet the requirement of the noble Lord, Lord Watson, for much more reassurance before we move forward with this clause.

The heading of the new clause proposed in Amendment 132A is: “Annual report on the impact of exemption on children and families”. Therefore, the amendment seeks to ensure that there is an annual report and that we know the impact of the exemptions.

Earlier in Grand Committee there was a short discussion about social work practices. We heard evidence of how they are working, which was helpful for us in thinking about these matters. Several years ago, Hackney had a programme called Reclaiming Social Work. It reduced the number of children coming into care by more than a third in three years and was a model for setting up social work teams with a consultant social worker. Isabelle Trowler, the current chief social worker, and Steve Goodman, a senior social worker in Hackney, led in this model. It was well evidenced and there was plenty of information about how it worked. Professor Eileen Munro highlighted this experience in her report, many local authorities have copied the model and it is becoming more widespread.

If we really want to make a difference for children, when we innovate we need to be sure that we have evidence and measure what is happening so that we can be confident of what works and what does not. We can then expand that to other areas. Amendment 132A would ensure that there was a gathering of evidence, and it is a probing amendment to achieve that.

Through Amendments 133A and 133B in my name, I seek to ensure open and transparent consultation in this process. I welcome the Government’s proposal in the Bill to commit to consult the Children’s Commissioner, Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Education, Children’s Services and Skills and any other person who the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

I am worried, however, that such an important decision to exempt a local authority from children’s social care legislation should be left to a consultation process defined by the Secretary of State. Instead, I share the view of the Children’s Society and other major children’s charities that the consultation process should be open to all, with a particular focus on residents of the local area, and that it should run for the same length of time as a standard government consultation. I agree with Members who have tabled amendments explicitly to include the voices of children and their families in the consultation, and I believe that the wording of an open consultation would include young people. The consultation should be open to all.

We want, as I am sure the Government do, to encourage the many interest groups such as children’s charities that, although perhaps not directly affected by innovation, have valuable expertise on safeguarding children to voice their support or concerns through a formal process. I support the importance of making sure, as part of the consultation, that children’s and families’ voices are taken into account, and that the consultation process is carried out in an active and accessible way so that they can respond on these important issues.

Equally, it is important that the consultation process does not take place behind closed doors, and that the Secretary of State should place her response to the consultation on the record. This important accountability measure will allow interested Members of Parliament to see what evidence swayed the Secretary of State’s decision and to hold her to account on it. That is vital following the initial three-year period, when the impact of the changes on children will be assessed and the expertise in the initial consultation responses will be drawn on to assess the longer-lasting impact of statutory exemptions.

I believe that the safeguards in my three amendments will make sure that innovation can happen in a controlled way to protect children while recognising the desire to test different approaches. At the heart of the amendments is the desire to support innovation, while also showing an important level of parliamentary scrutiny and public consultation before making decisions to exempt any local authority from its statutory responsibility to children in their local area. I beg to move.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Listowel’s Amendment 132A and his other amendments in this group. One does not need to look very far to understand why the Government are so keen to promote innovation, about which we have already heard a lot this afternoon. At present, 43 of the 87 local authority children’s services have been judged by Ofsted to be failing or inadequate. Clearly, this is highly undesirable, and we can and must do much more to ensure that the services we offer for vulnerable children are the best they can possibly be. I none the less support my noble friend’s Amendment 132A and his other amendments because I am concerned that the Bill fails to put in place rigorous and robust mechanisms to ensure that the well-being of children is not inadvertently affected by the exemption of local authorities from crucial clauses in children’s social care legislation.

In recent years, local authorities have developed some highly innovative approaches to children’s social services in areas such as Trafford. Trafford has maintained a good and an outstanding rating for the past five years, and its approach, particularly towards care leavers, has been commended by the Government. This in many ways represents the best practice that could be encouraged by the comprehensive and strengthened set of corporate parenting principles we have the opportunity to create in this very Bill. Trafford is widely considered a success story for innovation in local authorities, but this has all been achieved without the need to repeal the safeguards afforded to children through the Children Acts 1989 and 2004. I am still struggling to see where these key pieces of legislation are hampering innovation, and I would welcome it if the Minister gave examples of the benefit that the Government believe will derive from such a provision.

Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

I thank the noble Lord for answering my point about siblings. I look forward to the debate on the amendments. I also thank him for his clear reply to the important point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong of Hill Top. He said that the care plan process must involve parents. However, the experience so often is that parents do not get the help they need with their addictions or mental health support. So I hope that the noble Baroness will consider bringing back an amendment on this on Report. In the interim, I look forward to having discussions with colleagues to get their advice on whether anything more can be done to ensure parents get the support they need.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I am sure that noble Lords will agree that this has been an interesting and wide-ranging debate. It has opened up many other areas that we will need to address as the Bill progresses.

We are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Nash, for the way in which he has dealt with the comments made. Clearly, he will take into account many of the points made and will consider whether changes can be made in the right direction to satisfy us so that we all know the right way forward.

I gather that there is probably something substantially wrong with my amendment which might cause problems at a later stage. Certainly, at the moment, I do not wish to press it. I will look at it again and, unless other Members of the Committee wish to press the amendment at this stage, I suggest that we withdraw it and think about the next stage. We should think about the other amendments we shall be going on to in Committee, but we should also consider how we might reframe them to meet the problems we may still have on Report.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Wednesday 23rd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, earlier today I spent some time with an academic who left a young offender institution at the age of 15 without any qualifications. He has some sympathy with what the Government are proposing. As my noble friend said, the impulse to put education at the heart of meeting the needs of these young people is absolutely right. My difficulty, I am afraid to say, is that there is so little detail in what the Minister is proposing that I can see many very poor outcomes arising from it. As parliamentarians, we need to know more about what is going to be delivered to these young people.

I visited the Orchard Lodge unit that my noble friend described and, like him, I was most impressed by the high quality of multidisciplinary services that these young people receive. There may be lessons to be learnt from the research into the educational outcomes of looked-after children. I think that Professor Sonia Jackson was the academic who first drew attention to the disparity in educational outcomes between looked-after children and the general population of children at the end of the 1990s. This is relevant because many among the population in the secure estate have come from local authority care. She wrote to me recently, updating her research and looking again at the continent. She found that the United Kingdom has the best statutory framework for looked-after children and care leavers that we know of. That is a great endorsement of what this Government and the previous Government have done in terms of the legislative framework around these vulnerable young people. However, she also found that we have poorer educational outcomes than many countries on the continent. She ascribed this to the fact that we have such low expectations in terms of the educational qualifications of those who work near these young people.

As I mentioned earlier, in Denmark 90% of staff in children’s homes have a degree-level qualification and in Germany 50%. However, only 30% do in this country. As an authority was telling me recently, less than half of the managers of children’s homes have a degree-level qualification. If we are looking carefully at the policy to improve educational outcomes for our troubling, and often very troubled, children, we must take on board what my noble friend has said and his example from Missouri, where units are staffed by people with degree-level qualifications. I am reminded of the very interesting fact that the principal indicator for a good educational outcome for any young person is the level of qualification of their parents. If a parent has a degree, it is likely that their child will get a degree. It seems to make sense to look at the level of qualifications of people who work near these young people and to ensure that, as far as possible, they are well educated, so that those young people are likely to do far better in their own education.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, for the first time I have some hope that there may be an answer to the problem of that part of the Bill that has troubled everyone on all sides of the House, and which will never work in practice no matter how well intentioned it may be. We have now had from my noble friend a very clear outline of the sort of institution that would make sense.

As we all know, so many of the children who end up in this position not only have had appalling backgrounds but often have had no education at all. One of the first things needed is a basic test of the extent to which they are able to read or write. I hope that the Minister will take this issue away and be persuaded that his proposals are absolutely no good and will not have the support—let alone the extra cost that they would involve. They would provide a solution that would be totally unsatisfactory.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, experienced practitioners in residential settings, particularly local authority secure children’s homes, always tell me that the key to behaviour management and to avoiding escalation into using force is building relationships with the staff.

I was grateful for the Minister’s careful and considered response to earlier concerns. However, I go back to the staffing because in this country there seems to be such an underestimation of the level of qualification, understanding and support and development that staff need to work with vulnerable children, certainly those in our children’s homes, which I frequently visit. Ninety per cent of staff in children’s homes in Denmark have a degree-level qualification. In Germany, the figure is 50%, whereas in this country it is 30%. That was the situation about five years ago. Yet in Denmark and Germany half of children in care are kept in residential settings, so they have a far lower level of complex needs. We have far less qualified staff working with more vulnerable children. I am afraid that is a common experience across our children’s services in this country. We underestimate the skill involved in working with children who have been deeply damaged and the need to have really well qualified, reflective practitioners.

I visited Rainsbrook Secure Training Centre shortly after the death of Gareth Myatt while he had been restrained. My sense from that visit was that there was great regret but that it was okay: procedure had been followed. That generally sums up the culture in this country. We train staff up to be competent and follow procedure. In certain circumstances that is exactly right. What those on the continent have done is to recruit and select people who can think and who are deeply reflective, and who are trained to understand child development. They work hand in hand with mental health professionals to reflect on their relationships with young people and get the best from them.

If the Minister is successful in getting contracts for qualified staff who understand child development and, because they do that, work with mental health professionals to reflect constantly on their relationships with young people, we will be able to avoid the use of force as far as possible. In a large institution, however, it may be more problematic. There have been 16 deaths of children in custody since 2000; all of those have been in the larger institutions, the YOIs and the STCs, and not one in a local authority secure unit. Obviously they have had more children go through them, and that is important to bear in mind. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I shall share just a brief word, because I was unaware that we were going to be dealing with this clause. If we had been told that there are already minimum rules for restraint in existence, and bearing in mind strongly what has been said about the damage that would almost certainly have been done to these children over a number of years, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, stressed, then I think that it would be a really dangerous scenario to assume that what was described as two pain infliction methods would be the expected way of dealing with severely damaged children. They would be likely to be far more dangerously infected with these sorts of policies going into adulthood.

I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us that an extremely careful look will be taken at whatever forms of restraint are to be used. The point made about properly trained staff, who know what they are doing, is crucial too.

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Tuesday 15th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 40BZB in the name of my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss. I am sure that many of your Lordships are aware that very often there is a cycle of family dysfunction from one generation to the next. For instance, we know that many of the young women who come through the care system are more likely to have their children removed from them in due course.

One of the results of early neglect in childhood can be the development of a character which is very resistant to advice or intervention from others. Being rejected by one’s parents at an early age can give rise to a personality that is very wilful and resistant to others, understandably, because such people may distrust others around them. I can see this amendment being particularly helpful when one thinks of a parent who may be very wilful, who may believe absolutely, “I am not going to be told by anybody else what to do. I know how to bring up my own children”. That wilfulness may be influenced by their early experience. Dealing recently with a middle-aged man whose mother was an alcoholic and talking to the health professionals dealing with him, it was striking that no one could tell him what to do. He resisted all attempts to provide him with treatment and any advice from those around him, even the professionals.

The particular advantage of this amendment is that it may help individuals who are very resistant to taking advice from professionals. It may just be the extra incentive that will give them the chance to try something different with their children or to seek help for themselves when they are very distrustful of other people and professionals. I hope that is helpful.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I very much support my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss, because her amendment absolutely stresses this emotional side that we are talking about and which has been in the background for far too long.

However, I am on my feet only because I think that the point made by my noble friend Lady Howarth is absolutely right. All these measures, and particularly the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, need to be brought in to the Bill, which should be amended. For that reason, I very much hope that the Minister will do just that.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Monday 9th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 8. Before I do so, I join in thanking the Minister for the helpful meetings that he arranged between Grand Committee and Report and for the extremely encouraging meeting with the new chief social worker. As vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Looked after Children and Care Leavers, I agree with his analysis that the biggest difference to be made for these children and their families is in raising the status of child and family social work and recruiting and retaining the best workforce for them. Finally, I thank the Minister, the Minister for Children and Families and the Secretary of State for moving forward with the staying put amendment, which will make a huge difference to many young people leaving care. I am so grateful for that but I will not go further now because of the need to move forward.

Amendments 7 and 8 would ensure that when young people return from care to their biological families they have the support that they need to be successful in doing that. I will quote briefly from a letter published in the Telegraph yesterday, which had among the signatories Peter Wanless, chief executive of the NSPCC, Dr Maggie Atkinson, the Children’s Commissioner for England, and Dame Clare Tickell, the chief executive of Action for Children. The letter said:

“The Government has moved decisively to improve prospects for adopted children by offering an entitlement, in the form of a personal budget, to services for them and their parents. But most children who are taken into care are not adopted. They will return home where research shows that half of those who entered care as a result of abuse or neglect will suffer further harm unless changes are made. Too many young people end up in a revolving door of care that is damaging for them and has a significant cost for local authorities. The support offered to adopted children should also be made available to those who return home after a stay in care. Support should be driven by need and not by legal status”.

The purpose of my tabling this amendment again is to secure an assurance from the Minister that we can meet subsequently and discuss this issue and look at the welcome work that the Government are doing and some of the gaps that remain. I hope to establish a timeline for change. I will come to the problem in just a moment but I would be grateful for an opportunity to meet officials and, I hope, the Minister and any interested colleagues to look at how to take this forward and to monitor progress. It is moving in the right direction at the moment but it needs to move further and faster.

The problem, as laid out in that letter, is that the NSPCC conducted some research a year or so ago and was horrified to find that half of young people returning home from care were then returned to care fairly shortly afterwards. The needs of the families were not being addressed. They were still alcoholic or misusing drugs and those children were being returned home to unsafe places. Furthermore, what one finds in these circumstances is that children who are returned home, then taken back into care, then sent home again and taken back into care are damaged by that. In the worst cases, they lose all trust in adults and become people who are dependent on the state. They may be in prison. They are very damaged and it is hard to help them to recover from that damage.

I am extremely grateful for the actions that the Government have been taking following that NSPCC report. In their consultation which looks at permanency for children, they have looked at returning children from care and dealt particularly with the issue of accommodated children. There are new measures, including that there should be a plan established by each local authority for those children returning from care. I am grateful for the fact that they have set up a working group, which includes the NSPCC, to look at just this matter. There is one other step which the Government are taking and for which I am also grateful. I was pleased to meet officials and to hear from them that there will be opportunities to meet further with them and the NSPCC following this debate.

I really am grateful for the measures that the Government are taking but I am concerned that there are still some gaps. In particular, the consultation which has just been completed deals only with accommodated children. That is the majority of children who return from care but a substantial minority have either interim care orders or full care orders, and those are not currently covered by the measures proposed by the consultation. While local authorities have the power to ensure that young people returning from care to their biological parents have the equivalent to the personal budgets we are giving to adopted children—the equivalent of a guaranteed range of services to support those families—there is no obligation on them to do so. Given the many responsibilities that local authorities have and the shortage of resources, the concern is that many will not do that. Finally, there is no consistent assessment of young people and their families before they return home from care to ensure that they are returning to a safe place where they can be secure and have a good, settled life.

I hope that we can discuss those gaps further subsequent to this debate. I look forward to the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords—

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Monday 11th November 2013 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I will briefly follow what my noble friend has said in terms of the practical implementation of this very welcome work that the Government have undertaken. I remind the Committee of the difficulty posed by having continually changing professionals. We debated earlier the issue of children making their transition to adult services. On several occasions, parents have raised with me the difficulties posed by the fact that they will have several changes of social worker just as the child comes to access adult services, such that the advocacy for that child as it goes into the adult services is lost. I am very familiar in children’s services, particularly those for looked-after children, with people complaining and saying, “Look, I have had five social workers in the past two years”. People have had multiple social workers, which is very disadvantaging. When we talk about working together to improve outcomes for children, as we are here, we need to keep a good eye on the practicalities and ensure that there is more continuity of professional care. We need to keep and retain our social workers and other professionals, and not keep moving them around all the time.

Here, I would just like to raise the concerns that I have heard in the past when speaking to psychiatrists working in the health service. They feel that the service is changing and being reformed so often—with the best of intentions—that, once they get to build relationships with partners in other disciplines, they or the partner are moved on. They do not know the other people and cannot work in the kind of way I think we are talking about at the moment. I make a plea that we avoid more large-scale reorganisations of, for instance, the health service in the near future. The same story comes from social workers in local authorities, who continually experience reorganisations of their local authority, which overburdens them and, again, breaks up the relationships necessary for them to be able to make effective partnerships work in the way that we want them to work in this part of the Bill. I hope that is helpful to your Lordships.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I join in the praise for the Government on taking this issue very seriously indeed. The Minister has brought forward a comprehensive set of proposals to cover this vital area, and it is a source of pleasure to most of us that young carers are to be given some support in the background. It will be good to watch and see what happens.

I want to ask a question about Amendment 225, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes and Lady Jones, which seeks to insert a new clause headed “Duty to secure sufficient support”, particularly so far as schools are concerned. I speak as an officer of the National Governors’ Association. To what extent has the association passed this message on to all governing bodies? Do a sufficient number of schools have an individual governor from a background that reflects the training, knowledge and awareness to recognise the support that will be needed, and will they have specific responsibilities and duties in this respect in order to see that the policy is properly applied? This is particularly important. I go back quite a long way so far as governing bodies are concerned. Even in the context of the education Bills we have seen in recent years, it has taken some time to make it clear that governing bodies are expected to play an important role, yet they had not even been mentioned in the legislation. That, of course, has now changed, but it would be good to know how well this message has got through to governing bodies and to those with responsibilities in this area.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Monday 14th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Young, on her brilliant exposition of her amendment and the reasons behind it. Others have said better than I can how impressed they were with it.

However, I also want to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, because her amendments are all very important. I hope, too, that if they are put to the vote they will receive the support that the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, obviously will get. I hope very much that they are supported.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I omitted to comment on the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott. I support her welcome amendments. Of course, children in residential care are among the most vulnerable. Unfortunately, the way it works is that there tends to be a placement in foster care and, if that does not work out, then it is in residential care several broken placements down the line. So the ones with the most complex needs are often in residential care and they need the most support.

I welcome what the noble Baroness has said. There is an issue about price and other issues around it. One solution offered by Jonathan Stanley, a former chief executive of the National Centre for Excellence in Residential Child Care, is to pair up young people in residential care with foster carers so that—one can do a staying-put—one can ensure that there is a seamless move from a residential setting to a foster setting for at least some of these young people to the age of 21.

Norfolk is a very good exemplar of break-home practice. There they have supported housing right by the children’s home so that there is little movement for the children and they can feel in touch with the staff in their old setting. The noble Baroness has made some extremely important points and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply to her concerns.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I support this suggestion, which would solve an awful lot of problems. It would clearly give the Government time to catch up with their own aims and put them into practice much more clearly and in a way that other people will understand and be able to act on. There is a need for training and, from what we have heard from those who have practical experience, a need for retraining of some of the so-called experts. I am also slightly worried by what the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, said at the end of her contribution about huge sums of money being paid for “expertise” in this area. There was, almost inevitably, a comparison with the individual at the receiving end. Maybe we cannot afford to give them more but it is a small sum compared to what the expert gets. This is another opportunity to strike a better balance.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I support the amendment. Does the Minister think that it might be worth while if he made a few comments on the issues of continuity and supervision of staff? I hesitate to ask because I am unfamiliar with this area but in the areas of the asylum and immigration process, which has some similarities, and in social work and work with vulnerable children and families, the two themes seem to be, first, continuity of relationship wherever possible and, secondly, good quality supervision.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Thursday 10th November 2011 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

I am reminded of an article recently published on the BBC website reporting on a survey about children reading with their parents. It reported that:

“For the majority (71%) reading with their child is one of the highlights of their day. But the poll of over 1,000 parents found 18% felt too stressed to do so. Two-fifths (41%) said that a child's tiredness stopped reading together being fun, while 30% cited their own tiredness as a problem. More than a third (36%) of the 1,011 survey participants said they were too tired to spend longer reading”.

Teachers were also surveyed:

“Nearly three-quarters of those surveyed (72%) attributed developed language skills and more advanced reading levels to those children who regularly enjoyed a shared book time with parents at home”.

The evidence is very clear that the home environment is the key experience for children in getting the best outcomes for their education, so we need to think about parents not having the energy after a long day’s work to spend that important time, particularly, perhaps, at the ages of five, six and seven, reading with their child.

I refer to an e-mail sent to me today by a primary school teacher. She wrote:

“Commuting up to ninety minutes a day would mean that I would have to leave my son in childcare and school from 7.30 am to 6.30 pm everyday … I am a primary school teacher in London and I see the affects of long term childcare on children. Some only see their parents for an hour each day or only at weekends!”.

The last time I worked with children—in a summer play scheme five years ago—what was particularly striking was that there were children who arrived early at the play scheme for breakfast and there were those who stayed until the end. These children in particular seemed a bit tired, a bit down and flat, so I can understand the concern that as the Government are implementing this, the adviser should very much keep in mind not only whether the parent is working but whether the parent will have a long commute there and back and the child will have a very long day at school, starting early and finishing late. Advisers should keep this in mind when they are considering whether a person has to take a job.

I am sorry to take so long, but to round up, I share the concerns. If there is anything that can be done to mitigate the impact on lone parents with children of this age, I would welcome it. There is a real question about the quality of childcare available. Research has shown that parents have traded quality off against affordability. They have understandably been so desperate to find childcare that the pressure to raise standards has not been as high as it might have been. In the current economic climate, with the great need for childcare, the Government have understandably been lowering the requirements for the education and training of managers of children’s centres, for instance. There is this constant pressure: we need more childcare places, so there is pressure to lower standards. One should listen very carefully to parents who say to their adviser, “I don’t have faith in the childcare in my locality”. One needs to give that weight, particularly in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, where the Childcare Act 2006 does not apply and they have not necessarily got the push on greater provision that we would want. I hope that the Minister can give some reassurance on these points, and I look forward to his reply.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak but, listening to the debate, I think that the opposition expressed by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, would provide the necessary time to reconsider the effects that the Bill will have in this respect. I also agree with my noble friend that the business about child support is a problem. Quite apart from the cost, the quality has come under quite a lot of doubt recently. The major point that I want to make is about stress on parents. I invite your Lordships to think about how stressed all of you have been by the extensive amount of work we have all had to consider recently, and bear that in mind when you come to consider whether or not to support this amendment.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Monday 10th October 2011 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I am afraid my last comments were probably not very clear, for which I apologise. The question I really wanted to ask was about a young person leaving care who has a sum of capital in a child trust fund. Will that sum be exempt if he needs to draw on universal credit?

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, having listened to the detailed arguments, which were extremely well put, if I may say so, the message to me is definitely that all this looks as though it is going to discourage people from saving. If the Minister cannot reply to what we have heard, that is a very worrying message to be sending out.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I would like to join my thanks to those made this afternoon, and to speak briefly about the importance of involving employers, about the governance of Jobcentre Plus, and briefly about housing.

I thank the Minister for the help of the civil servants. There were a number of very helpful briefing meetings which were most welcome, and I am sure this will continue.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, raised the issue of involving employers, and if I might I will give an example of how effective that can be in terms of reaching the most hard to reach people out there.

There is a programme, started by the National Grid utility about 10 years ago, led by their chairman, Sir John Parker, which employs young people from within the criminal justice system, and has reduced the reoffending rates among those young people from 70 per cent to below 7 per cent. National Grid has brought in a number of other partners, such as the engineering firm Skanska and another engineering firm Morrisons, and other businesses have been joining in such as software businesses. Because this has come from businesses they have been able to build trust among other employees, and while it would seem most unlikely that many of these companies would wish to employ people from the criminal justice system, in fact they found that because they have made the effort to recruit these young men—they have given them the training and the promise of employing them if they complete the training—those young men have become loyal employees, and have actually risen quickly up the managerial ladders of these companies. They are filling a gap, because these companies have an aging workforce and they need young people to enter their firms.

That is a very important point, and it brings me again to think about whether employers are firmly enough plugged in to the governance of Jobcentre Plus. I hope to table an amendment later in the Bill which will look at how one might perhaps involve more of the stakeholders in the running of Jobcentre Plus. I will not expand too much on this now, but if you look at the example of the Youth Justice Board, which has proved so successful since its introduction about 10 years ago you will see that, its chairman is a former chief executive of a local authority, so she can go to chief executives and directors of children’s services in local authorities and explain to them how important it is that they provide employment and find housing for young people who leave young offender institutions if they are not to reoffend, cost the taxpayer huge sums of money, and ruin their own lives. So I will bring that amendment later.

I am certainly very concerned about housing, but I am grateful for the signals from the Government, who listen very carefully to concerns, and I look forward to that debate. I will sit down at this point, but I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for allowing this opportunity for a broader debate at the beginning of the Bill.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I shall comment briefly on a couple of the speeches that have been made. The way the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, introduced the whole of this absolutely explained my frustration and irritation at the short amount of time any of us have been given to do anything at all with this Bill. The noble Lord’s hard look at the use of language was very illustrative too, and that has of course been added to as far as things like social tax are concerned and other points that have already been made.

Above all, I hope that it will help us, because the atmosphere has not been particularly good regarding the whole of the way in which this has been arrived at between the usual channels. To have a little debate like this, setting the scene, will I hope influence how we all approach what we are going to be dealing with. I will leave it at that, but I have been very impressed, let me put it like that, particularly by what the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood has said, and by the way he set the scene for the opening.

Education Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Monday 11th July 2011 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Listowel]

In moving my Amendment 79, I wish to speak also to my Amendments 80 and 81. They are fairly self-explanatory and concern staff development in nurseries, nursery staff qualifications and nursery manager qualifications. We have already debated this area but I wish to impress on the Minister and Members of the Committee how vital it is for vulnerable children to have as much stability as possible in their early lives.

We are extending this entitlement to families, particularly disadvantaged families, and encouraging them to place their children in group settings at the age of two. Therefore, we need to think how we can ensure that that environment is stable and that their carers are as reliable and regular as possible. According to the 2008 child workforce paper, staff turnover was 16 per cent in daycare settings and 5 per cent in settings within primary schools. We do not have details—at least, I am not aware of them—of how much variation there is from that 16 per cent level. Sixteen per cent seems high to me, but some places may have staff turnover levels of 20 per cent or more. It seems to me that if staff were offered more training and development, we could prevent such a high turnover. The difficulty we find ourselves in—certainly this has been the case in the past—is that high levels of vacancies in nurseries make it difficult for these businesses to make a go of it. The chief costs to these businesses arise from staff training and development and staff pay. If they want to save money to stay in business and keep the service going, they have to target staff training and development.

In addition, the current economic climate is very challenging for all enterprises. My concern is that the training and development of these staff might be undermined. I know that even in these difficult financial circumstances much effort has been put into ensuring that that does not happen. However, I would like the Minister to give an undertaking that he will monitor where these two year-olds are going—whether they are going to satisfactory, good or outstanding settings—and publish that information. Could we be given better data on staff sickness absence rates and turnover rates in these settings so that we can better understand what is going on and the consequences for children’s stability? Perhaps Members of the Committee who are interested in this area and the government adviser, Bernadette Cunningham, could meet with the relevant person in Ofsted to discuss these issues with them.

Finally, I would like some information, if possible, from the Minister on whether he expects many of the leaders and managers in these settings to opt out from this graduate requirement. Can we expect most of these settings to continue to be graduate-led settings? I look forward to his response. I beg to move.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, briefly, I support the broad thrust of my noble friend's amendments because this is quite clearly an important stage of children's development. We have just had the second Frank Field report The Foundation Years: Preventing Poor Children Becoming Poor Adults, where again he emphasises that:

“The strategy should include a commitment that all disadvantaged children should have access to affordable full-time, graduate-led childcare from age two”.

I relate that also to the encouragement that the Government are, in my view, rightly making to encourage single parents and parents who have not been in work before to get into work—an additional need.

I of course accept that the exact number of hours may not be a possibility, but this is nevertheless an important area. It takes me back so many years to the beginning of nursery education. I always think of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, who was very unkindly known always as “Mrs Thatcher, milk snatcher” when she was in fact responsible, much more importantly, for the abolition of the Act that stopped local authorities opening nursery schools and classes. I remember being one of a group going to lobby her about that, all those years ago, but even in those pre-school playgroup days there was that argument about the extent to which people ought to train and be trained. I was not always entirely on the side of the belief that everyone should be trained. You were learning so much within the process, with the help of experts in this field, that many of that generation went on to be very involved in dealing in their children's education.

I make that as a background comment in view of the enthusiasms of all these people who have been commissioned. There is Frank Field, Graham Allen, who is doing yet another report, and I have forgotten the name of the woman—

Education Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, after listening to the emotions raised, it is quite clear that this is an explosive situation. As to the longer term, after looking at my diary I can see that we have a few more sessions in Committee and then a break. This will give us longer to work out the best solution to the problem for when we get to Report.

All kinds of issues have been raised: race, where there is an element of real concern, the use of phones and the danger to teachers. One view is that phones are good things and can be useful—and no doubt they can be—but you have to adopt a different approach to a situation where children, particularly girl children, have had these phones used to record certain incidents that might be used against them. As president of the NGA, I believe that there is a role for the governors and I intend to ask about the advice given to schools. I would have thought that somewhere between the head teacher, the chairman of governors and the governing body there would have to be a policy anyhow on what happens under these circumstances.

I hope that we can put this off a while. We need a real teach-in, if possible before the end of summer or on one of those splendid occasions when we are dragged back into the building. However, I am ambivalent. I can see some of the problems from the school viewpoint but it will remain a worrying situation until we can draw out something which is satisfactory to all sides.

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I want to flag up for the Minister that this might be relevant to his interest in the training and development of teachers more generally and that he might seek confirmation from those of your Lordships who have been in practice in this area whether my concerns regarding the teacher-pupil relationship are right. I know from other settings working with children that it is vital to build a relationship of trust. All kinds of emotions can emerge from that. There can be love, as the noble Lord, Lord Elton, has often said, but there can also be feelings of hate.

I remember observing a teacher—a man in his late 40s, perhaps—working with a 16 year-old girl with Down’s syndrome. We were taking her out on a summer expedition to picnic in the park. She was a lovely girl but she was unmanageable; she would push the boundaries. She would walk away, and what could he do? What could any of us do? As we went back in the minibus I observed him—I may have been incorrect in my observation—start to tease her about her boyfriend who was sat next to her. We are all human and when we are put under pressure certain people get under our skin and certain things come up. The way in which we can avoid taking such things personally is by reflecting on what we are doing—just as that Montessori teacher was helped to observe that wagging her finger at pupils was not helpful and perhaps came from an experience in her past that she does not want to bring about again.

Rather long-windedly, I am suggesting to the Minister that his work in bringing in Charlie Taylor to advise about behaviour and in thinking about how we can better train and develop teachers might be useful in this area—not only to avoid having to bring about the searching of children but the danger that certain children might be targeted by teachers who find them annoying. This might be one way of dealing with that annoyance.

People have always emphasised to me that—I wanted to check this point with those who have teaching experience—little attention is given to the teacher-pupil relationship in teacher training and development and that there is a vacuum in that regard. In the initial teacher training there is very little about child development and how you interact with children. Continuing professional development is also lacking in that regard. Teachers report that it is wonderful to be given training in child development and managing difficult behaviour. Indeed, the training that foster carers say is most valuable to them is that concerned with managing difficult behaviour. I flag up the point to the Minister that the broader issue of the training and development of teachers is involved here. I know that he is doing some work in that area and he may want to say something about that in his response.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. I understand the Government’s desire to push this flagship policy forward as fast as possible to keep their momentum after a successful election. However, when one is making a revolution—this might be momentous in the culture of education—it cannot hurt and must be helpful, where there is an opportunity to delay for some months until another Bill arrives, to talk more with head teachers.

My concern all the time is that perhaps there has not been sufficient strategic thinking about what the impact of this change will be on every child. I do not doubt that many primary and secondary schools will welcome and want this. My concern is that we may be moving towards a three-tier system of public schools, academy schools and the rest, with many of our children in the poorest areas experiencing a poorer quality of teaching when they need as good teaching as—or even better than—those in more wealthy areas. That may not happen—I may be quite wrong and I hope that I am—but the more time that we give to thinking this through carefully, the more chance there is that I will be wrong.

I talked to a head teacher today who said how frustrated he was with the current system. Certainly things have to change, but I emphasise that the Minister has only recently taken up his Front-Bench post. I am sure that the Secretary of State has put a lot of time into consulting teachers, but it cannot hurt for there to be more time for the Minister to talk with head teachers and to think through what could be the consequences for all our children of these changes. I support the amendment.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, it has been an extremely interesting debate and all sides have contributed a lot to one’s thinking. I am sympathetic to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Perry. Perhaps I should declare my interest as president of the NGA, because I think that the vast majority of governing bodies are responsible organisations that represent local areas considerably.

I agree that there are two points. Should primary schools be part of the scheme? Yes, I think that they should be. Are they so different that we have to wait for the next Bill to come through? I rather doubt that. We could begin the process now. The Secretary of State has considerable powers already and bodies such as diocesan boards are clearly strong partners.

Bearing in mind the issue of special educational needs, which is important to us all, I would like to know whether SEN pupils will be disadvantaged if we go down this route because they will not have the same backing from the local authority to provide the extra resource support that they are getting. That is my test. We could certainly begin with experiments now. I hope that the Minister can convince us that he will take a view on all these things before he gives the appropriate timescale for schools to apply to become academies.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Earl of Listowel

Wednesday 23rd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel]

I thank the Minister for his reply to my noble friend. However, does he also recognise what policy in the past 10 years has recognised? These children—from difficult families that are complex to deal with—need a seamless provision of services. The Children Act 2004 enshrined a duty on all agencies to work together to safeguard and promote the welfare of vulnerable children. I spoke recently to the manager of a children’s home in Camden. He said, “I used to manage a private home which was reasonably good, but it is so much easier for me to run this home because the services in Camden are so well connected. Mental health and social services work with the children and their families”. The general principle that I think my noble friend is driving at is: please reassure us that there will be no risk of fragmentation. I suppose that is the word. It proved so hard to get everyone to work together in the best interests of the child. We certainly would not want to put that in jeopardy.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I do not think any of us realised that the Minister was going to reply quite so soon, before there was any other opportunity to support my noble friend Lord Northbourne’s point. One of the crucial issues is what we all know is happening and has been happening for 37 years, since Keith Joseph first mentioned the cycle of deprivation. All this has been going on and we have not managed to cope with it. The pertinent question is: who will get the right provision and the early statement for young people so that they can be helped at the earliest possible age? Who will ask that question for these individual children in this state? On any view, they cost us all—the individual and the country—huge sums of money. We have really failed in this way. We have all been talking about it for 37 years. I would very much like to have that point addressed.