The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, will the Minister clarify one further point? There is concern that the Government imposed a freeze on recruitment for a period, which may have contributed to some of the applicants becoming disillusioned and choosing not to apply to teacher training. I would appreciate it if he could tell me whether that is correct.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, I have never been accused of being Maoist and believing in permanent revolution before. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, I do not come to bury marketing but to praise it. I agree with a lot of his points about marketing and why one needs to have professional marketing. I know how much he did and I know the good job that the TDA has done. That is not in dispute and I completely accept that it has played a valuable part in raising the quality of our workforce, as many noble Lords have said.
Given my praise for the work that it has done, the question that may follow is: why are we proposing to bring those functions into the department? In a way, that links to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland. It is to increase accountability. I accept the noble Lord’s point that one of the consequences of bringing things closer to home is that Ministers will have accountability. If in the new arrangements the success of recruiting teachers is less than it has been before, that will be clear to see and it is clear whose responsibility that is. That is what lies behind the move and across the piece; namely, to deliver services, to increase accountability to Parliament and, by bringing services together, to make savings with back-office functions.
We are intending to transfer the key functions of the TDA, including recruitment and the promotion of teaching as a career, to the new executive agency, the Teaching Agency. It will continue to have the lead role in marketing, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred, the opportunities and attractions of teaching. We want to retain the expertise that exists to carry out that role. We in many cases, would want the roles and the people currently performing them to carry on at the agency. One would not want to lose that professionalism, to which the noble Lord, Lord Knight, rightly referred.
The noble Lord and the noble Earl asked questions about the marketing freeze across government. As we know, there was a freeze in marketing as we tried to get on top of the huge ballooning of expenditure on marketing in recent years. We have managed to save many hundreds of millions of pounds across government by doing that, which was a necessary step. In response to the noble Earl, I am glad to say that that freeze having happened, things have picked up. We are back to where we would have wanted to be. As regards acceptances, the proportion of places filled is in line with previous years. In fact, I am told that we are doing a little better in physics and maths than we were last year, but we obviously have to keep going.
The coalition Government set out in our Programme for Government our commitment to reduce the number and cost of arm’s-length bodies. The Cabinet Office set out the criteria to test when it is right to have an arm’s-length body performing functions and whether a body should continue to exist. When we made that decision, we discussed our intention with a range of interested groups, including teacher and head teacher unions. On the point raised by the noble Earl about the advisory board for the new Teaching Agency, as we said last week when we were discussing another body, we need to have arrangements in place so that the Teaching Agency can benefit from the knowledge and views of a wide range of interested parties. We want to put such arrangements in place. The Teaching Agency will be bringing in functions from four different existing organisations and we want to ensure that we get advice in relation to all the functions of the new agency. Any new group that we set up will have to ensure that it has appropriate representation across all the areas of interest of the new agency.
It might be that an advisory board of the sort suggested by the noble Earl will be what we eventually decide to have, but, as regards his amendment, it would be premature to restrict ourselves to a particular mechanism before we have had a chance to develop further the way in which the new Teaching Agency will operate. However, we will look to the boards of the four existing organisations, the GTCE, the CWDC, the QCDA and the TDA, to offer their views on what may provide the best way forward.
I accept the force of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, about the importance of marketing. I have given my background in this funny world. He would not expect me to be a luddite on that issue. I accept the need for the provision to continue and to be delivered professionally. By bringing it in-house, we will have a cost-effective, streamlined and professional organisation. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, just before he does, I thank the Minister for his reply, particularly for what he said about an advisory group in relation to the new arrangements. I hope your Lordships will agree that the meeting last week with Charlie Taylor was a success. Certainly, the group I was with was impressed by the Government’s choice of adviser. I have met Bernadette Cunningham, who the Government have chosen to advise them on early years care. Her work with the Coram Family is well respected. Therefore, the Government’s track record in choosing advisers is a very good one so far.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I hesitate to speak, but the amendments raise very important issues about the teaching profession and the future professionalism of teaching. Will the Minister keep in mind what happened to social work? At one time it was a highly respected profession with high thresholds of entry, but those thresholds were lowered for various reasons. A short while ago one could get on to a social work course with a couple of Ds as qualification. The result has been a highly variable quality in social workers.
While I wish to be as flexible as possible to recruit the right people into teaching, it would be a backward step if we were to lower standards trying to do so. I look to the Minister for reassurance that that will not happen.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, this is a timely debate—only the week before last the department published its strategy for initial teacher training. That set out a vision for raising the quality of teachers, which I hope will address some of the concerns of my noble friend Lord Willis about how we might move forward. It also set out our plans to give schools more involvement in training. The reason for that is that schools are employers of teachers as well as places where trainees can learn from outstanding teachers. So we are keen that schools should form an important part of the mix of our system for recruiting and training new teachers. In saying that, and responding to my noble friend Lady Brinton, I assure noble Lords that the Government’s intention is certainly not to remove universities from teacher training. As the Training our Next Generation of Outstanding Teachers document says:
“There is an important role for universities in any future ITT system. They provide trainees with a solid grounding in teaching, and space to reflect on their school experiences”.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
My Lords, a Division has been called. The Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes.
Lord Hill of Oareford
As I was saying, the Training our Next Generation of Outstanding Teachers document says:
“There is an important role for universities in any future ITT system. They provide trainees with a solid grounding in teaching, and space to reflect on their school experiences. We expect universities to continue to be involved in most teacher training, responding to the demands of schools for high quality training to supplement school-based practical experience”.
Our proposals for teacher training are part of our broader efforts to put schools at the heart of our drive to improve educational standards. In most cases, we expect this to be in strong partnerships with successful universities and we have set out a series of proposals to achieve this. The Universities’ Council for the Education of Teachers, whose members are universities that provide teacher training, has welcomed the publication of the Government’s strategy.
My noble friend Lady Brinton asked for reassurance on a couple of points. First, do all new teachers need to be graduates? The answer to that is yes. Undergraduates can gain a degree through their course and other trainees must hold a degree before entering ITT. Her second question was about accredited ITT providers and the Quality Assurance Agency process. ITT providers that are HE institutions will be covered by these arrangements and be accredited by the TDA and, in future, by the Teaching Agency. As now, school-based ITT is also accredited by the TDA. Both are inspected by Ofsted.
On the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rix, our proposals for teacher training will ensure that teachers have practical teacher training experience of supporting pupils with additional needs, including SEN. Indeed, we want there to be a stronger focus on support for children with special educational needs. Initial teacher training courses that prepare trainees to meet the qualified teacher status standards currently ensure that teachers are able to differentiate their teaching to meet the needs of each pupil, including those with special educational needs. The White Paper stated that the revised standards should, among other things, provide a stronger focus on responding to pupils with additional needs, including those with special educational needs. An interim report of that review is expected to be submitted in the coming week.
In addition, our Green Paper sets out a range of measures designed to enhance the knowledge, skills and understanding of teachers in relation to teaching children with special educational needs and disabilities. These include: making it easier for more trainees to conduct some, though not all, of their training placements in special settings, including special schools and mainstream schools with specially resourced SEN provision; commissioning a range of free training resources for serving teachers to support children with a range of specific special educational needs; funding a scholarship for teachers’ higher-level professional development to improve their practice, where half of the funding available will be for supporting disabled children and children with special educational needs; and ensuring that networks of new teaching schools will help schools to share practice and resources in meeting the needs of disabled pupils and those with special educational needs.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
I am grateful for the Minister’s patience with me. I am interested in his view of the bachelor of education. Having a training over years rather than a single year or—in the case of Teach First, of which I am an enthusiast—a few weeks, allows, particularly primary school teachers, not only training across the range of subjects that are taught in primary schools, but to drill down in more detail into special educational needs. The feeling out there is that the Government are not as keen on the bachelor of education as postgraduate routes from other subjects. Can the Minister give us some reassurance on that from the Dispatch Box?
Lord Hill of Oareford
As the noble Lord knows, we are keen to encourage people into teaching via a variety of routes, whether through Teach First or through PGCE. In due course, if we can, we want to build on initiatives such as Teach First to see if we can get people who have been successful in other professions to come into teaching. We are keen to make sure that there is a variety of ways. It is true that in terms of the financial support which we announced in the initial teacher training strategy that we published a couple of weeks ago, the focus of the funding that we are making available is on those who have high-quality university degrees in shortage subjects. However, we want to see a range of provision.
I have already written to a number of noble Lords who spoke at Second Reading about teacher training to draw their attention to the publication of our strategy and to invite them to meet the Minister of State for Schools. As the document we published is a discussion document rather than a statement of final policy, I encourage noble Lords with an interest to read it and to let us know what they think. I would be very happy for those who have an interest—I am thinking of my noble friend Lady Brinton and, given his remarks, probably my noble friend Lord Willis as well—to organise a meeting with the Minister of State with responsibility for these important areas so that we can discuss this further with him.
I hope that I have been able to reassure my noble friend Lady Brinton about our continued commitment to high-quality teacher training and the essential role of universities. I also hope that given the range of measures which we are planning to put in place in relation to special educational needs, the noble Lord, Lord Rix, will agree that we do not need this prescription. I ask my noble friend Lady Brinton to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Perry of Southwark
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, and the noble Lord, Lord Knight, have both spoken cogently and persuasively about the importance of school support staff. I hope there is no one in this room who does not recognise the immensely important job they do and the status they have within every school. However, this clause and these amendments are not about the status, standing and job descriptions of support staff—they are simply about their national negotiating body. Although I have listened carefully to what has been said, I have not heard anything which has convinced me that the national negotiating body over pay and conditions is anything to do with the standing and status within individual schools of the splendid support staff who work there.
I strongly argue that each school has—and has a right—to develop the individual job descriptions, relationships and the jobs assigned to their support staff. Every school has its own requirements and needs, and it deploys its staff and support staff in ways that meet those needs. I believe it gives greater status to the support staff when they have a position within the school, which is recognised within the school and has been negotiated within the school, and a job which is assigned to them. So although I endorse entirely everything that has been said about the importance of support staff, I have heard nothing that convinces me concerning the national negotiating body over pay and conditions. Though of course such bodies are dear to trade unionists—you have more clout as a trade union if you have a national negotiating body—this only damages the trade union body which supported it. It does not damage the standing and status of individual support staff in individual schools.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, it is clear that everyone is agreed on the important contribution that school support staff make, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, my noble friend Lady Perry and others. Whether we are talking about teaching assistants, caretakers or catering staff, schools cannot function without them. That is not at issue, nor is it at issue how much we value them. The question is whether, like the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, we think there needs to be a single national pay and conditions framework backed up by statute or whether, as my noble friend Lady Perry argued, employers should be able to continue setting local pay more flexibly to account for local conditions. As the noble Baroness would expect, the Government favour greater local autonomy and flexibility because we know that is a feature of the most successful school systems in the world.
Let me give one concrete example. The first matters on which the SSSNB was working to reach agreement would have been a set of national role profiles and an associated job evaluation scheme. To implement the scheme would have required every one of more than 500,000 school support staff in England to have their roles re-evaluated. According to the impact assessment for the ASCL Bill this would require in excess of 200,000 hours of time from head teachers or senior leadership.
There is already a national framework in place in relation to pay and conditions for the majority of support staff working in community and voluntary-controlled schools in the form of the National Joint Council for Local Government Services agreement. It is a voluntary agreement known as the Green Book. It was negotiated by the local government employers, UNISON, GMB and Unite and is used by all except three local authorities. In making our decision to end the SSSNB, we asked the views of those most closely involved—its membership, which includes trade unions and employers—and its independent chair. The trade unions were in favour of retaining the SSSNB but the support staff employer organisations took a different view. The local government group, which incorporates the Local Government Association and draws its members from Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Labour and independent political parties, reaffirmed those views recently to the Minister of State for schools.
My noble friend Lady Walmsley argued for a delay to the abolition of the SSSNB, arguing that it should have an opportunity to complete its work and be judged on that basis. Certainly we would be happy for the SSSNB member organisations to decide to work together independently of government to complete the work on the job role profiles. I believe that that is being considered by trade unions and the employers. However, we want to allow schools and local authorities to choose whether to use the materials being developed rather than being required to do so by law.
I believe that the Government’s decision is not based on a premature judgment of the quality of the work of the SSSNB. It is based rather on our view that schools should have greater rather than less autonomy in matters of staffing. Given that, I fear that delaying the abolition would leave the SSSNB member organisations working in vain on a framework that the Government would not in the end support and that employers have made clear that they do not want.
Lord Hill of Oareford
Perhaps I may respond to that point because we want to get on. We are proposing the perpetuation of the current situation. The people who are currently responsible, the local authorities and other bodies, would continue as now to be responsible. The legislative regulatory framework in terms of employment law, equality law and everything else remains in place. It is not the case that the proposed abolition of the SSSNB would change what we currently have going on. The change would have been if the SSSNB had gone ahead.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
With the change in role and the scope of responsibility being exercised by the local authority being radically revised, it will not be the same local authority that we will have to deal with and to which we will have to look. Where I live, we now have other bodies providing what has been provided in the past. Consequently, it is not just a return to the status quo. If this Bill goes through, the status quo is no more. In fact, it is not a status quo at all.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
Yes. We will be seeing an update of this going on the whole time and, to my mind, it could not be a more important age group or area so I hope that the spirit of what my noble friend's amendment stresses will be very much borne in mind.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, like the noble Earl, we are committed to a diverse and high-quality early years sector. The department will be publishing its foundation years policy statement later this summer and, as we discussed earlier today, it is currently consulting on a revised EYFS framework following Dame Clare’s review, which will set out our proposals to build on existing requirements relating to qualifications and training for childcare providers. The early years foundation stage, we think, outlines staff qualification requirements that are proportionate and encourage suitably qualified staff into the early years sector. Nursery managers, for example, require at least a full and relevant level 3 qualification, equivalent to A-level, and at least two years’ experience of managing an early years setting or other suitable experience of working with children. We have seen steady progress in recent years in the skills of the early education and childcare workforce, with over 70 per cent now qualified to level 3.
In her report, however, Dame Clare Tickell noted the need to reduce the complexity and burdens of the existing framework, and to recognise the sector’s growing capacity to take on more responsibility for its own quality and standards. It is ultimately employers who have the strongest interest in ensuring the best possible skills and qualifications among their staff and in ensuring that the most effective arrangements are in place. I am sure that many noble Lords would agree that improving the quality of early education and childcare is not just about the level of staff qualifications because it is also supported by the wealth of dedicated, experienced staff in the sector with on-the-job experience, which in some roles can be as important as formal qualifications.
Lord McAvoy
I hear what my noble friend said. She is a very formidable person and I have some trepidation in having a difference of opinion with her. Nevertheless, I remind her in all benevolence and kindness that she used the expression “indoctrination” in the same context as faith schools. A lot of people would take exception to that. I certainly take exception to that because I do not believe that faith schools indoctrinate. I doubt that a faith school, irrespective of whether it is Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Buddhist, would accept that it should have a curriculum and teach no faith. I can give an example of that because faith schools were mentioned by the mover of the amendment. In Scotland, in one of the biggest Roman Catholic schools I am told that between 10 per cent and 20 per cent of the school population are Muslim children because it is a part of Glasgow where there is a high Muslim population. It seems to me that there is no indoctrination going on there. In my opinion, and I am entitled to put my point of view, this amendment would impose restrictions on faith schools and limit their ability to tailor their curriculum, not to tamper with the core curriculum or to ignore it, but to build their curriculum around their faith and ethos. I oppose the amendment.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I will be brief in my response as I am very conscious that there are a number of noble Lords waiting to move amendments. The issue at heart in this typically wide-ranging and thought-provoking debate is quite simple and is one that we have debated many times before; namely, what is the proper amount of prescription that there should be? It does not follow that the only way to demonstrate the value of a subject is that it should be in the national curriculum. Not everything needs to be in it to show its worth. I agree very much with the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, made at the beginning about the importance of art, music and sport. I agree with her wholeheartedly on that. It is obviously the case that maintained schools, CTCs and academies are required by law or through their funding agreements to provide a broad and balanced curriculum. I would not want schools to provide a narrow education.
I do not agree with the criticisms of the EBacc as a narrowing measure. As noble Lords know, what is driving us on the EBacc is the simple fact that at the moment 4 per cent of children on free school meals have those EBacc subject qualifications, which are the qualifications most likely to get them to a top university. It is about trying to redress the balance and give some of those children more of a chance. It is not about wanting to narrow the range of subjects that people have. As the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, pointed out most forcefully, and my noble friend Lord Baker also made the point, over the years, the national curriculum has come to cover more and more subjects, to prescribe more and more outcomes and to take up more and more school time. We want to move away from that approach to give teachers greater freedom to design a curriculum that meets the needs of their pupils, which is why we are reviewing the national curriculum to ensure that in future it does not absorb the overwhelming majority of teaching time in schools and provides more space. Then the important subjects that the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, talked about will have more time and space to be delivered in the appropriate way by the staff who know their pupils in their schools. There is an important distinction to be made between the national curriculum and the wider school curriculum. We want to get away from the approach that just because a topic or subject is important, it has to be specified in the national curriculum, or that because it is not in the national curriculum, that means that it is not important or should not be taught. Neither of those positions is true.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, asked specifically about the national curriculum. It might be helpful if I reply briefly. However, if I can let her have a fuller reply on where we have got to with the national curriculum review and on some of her questions about the terms of reference—where we have got to and how we are going forward—which we can circulate more widely, I shall do so. In essence, it is being conducted in two phases. The first phase is drafting new programmes of study for English, maths, science and PE, which we have confirmed will remain statutory in maintained schools at all four key stages. I think that that was the assurance that my noble friend Lord Moynihan was seeking. This first phase is also considering which other subjects, if any, should be part of the national curriculum in future and at which key stages. We expect to announce our proposals from this phase early next year. Then they will follow a full public consultation on those proposals.
In the second phase, we will consider the content and design of the programmes of study for any other subjects that are to remain within the national curriculum and whether non-statutory guidance should be produced to support the continued teaching of any other subjects or topics. We are being advised by an expert panel as well as by an advisory committee consisting mainly of successful head teachers and including representation from higher education and employers. The terms of reference which the noble Baroness asked for are on our website, but I will send them to her. I hope that soon—she will know this because we have discussed it over many months—I will be able to let her have the remit of the PSHE review, which she also asked me about.
We have spoken briefly about sport. She asked me specifically about the Chance to Shine initiative. Over the period 2009-13, the ECB is receiving £38 million from Sport England to support its whole sport plan, of which £7.2 million is being invested directly into Chance to Shine, which I think is a small increase.
We had a brief conversation about Singapore and what it can teach us. As my noble friend Lady Walmsley pointed out, it is the case that life skills are taught. As it happens, it also does the equivalent of the EBacc, which suggests that these things are not incompatible and which is where we want to be. That is all I want to say in response. We will come back to some of these other issues in further groups, which will raise important issues. But, at heart, it is our view that boiling down what is in the national curriculum—providing more space, being less prescriptive and looking to professionals who know more about what they are doing in the classroom than do Ministers—is the right way forward. With that, I would ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
I thank the Minister for that sympathetic reply and for his assurance that he will send me the terms of reference on the progress of the curriculum and PSHE. I also thank all noble Lords for taking part in that very impassioned—I am glad that it was impassioned—debate because it is important. I am really glad that the noble Lord, Lord Baker, said that it was about time that we talked about the curriculum and I agree with everything he says about school and the age of 14. I have no problem with that. The noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, mentioned the sort of potpourri curriculum. That is not what I intend. Many of the things mentioned will be included in PSHE, about which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and I have talked many times.
I really fear that schools might end up teaching to achieve good test results, as some do now, and will exclude some subjects because they want to give more time to getting good results, a good place in the league tables and so on. My fear is that if we disengage pupils and disengage them from the curriculum, that can result in exclusion from school and from life chances. I of course agree that the core subjects are essential and that if they are well taught that is absolutely wonderful. A close relative of mine used to truant for all lessons except English because there was a wonderful teacher who taught literature supremely well, including Shakespeare. For the rest of the time, my close relative went fishing, which I think is a sitting-down sport. Is it a sport at all? I do not know.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Wednesday at 3.45 pm.
Lord Elton
My Lords, perhaps I may make an observation, and a plea. We have heard some fascinating speeches today but some of them are really outwith the bounds of what a Committee is for. We are here to advise the Minister on what is possible within the boundaries of the Bill. The great flights of empire building and hope that we were led into, and greatly enjoyed, begin to threaten, I fear, another day or two off our recess. So I do hope that your Lordships will exercise some restraint.