Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scott of Foscote]

My Lords, I am fully supportive of the spirit behind these amendments. I rise simply to query a small point concerning the definition of abuse in Amendments 41 and 42, both of which are to the same effect. Amendment 41 states that,

“‘abuse’ means any incident or repeated incidents of threatening behaviour, violence or abuse (whether psychological, physical, sexual, financial or emotional”.

When one speaks of domestic violence, I imagine that, like me, most Members of the House have a fair idea in their minds of what is involved, and the speeches that your Lordships have heard this afternoon rather underline that: namely, that some party to a domestic partnership has been battered or threatened with violence in some way. If the only threat is a financial one, is it appropriate to describe it as domestic violence? I accept that financial threats might exacerbate other examples of domestic violence. However, I refer to financial pressure alone—nothing but financial pressure—whereby one of the parties to the domestic partnership is endeavouring to control the expenditure of the other party in one way or another. We have heard a great deal about cuts on a national basis and nations living beyond their income. However, parties to a domestic partnership can live beyond their income as well. One of the parties may seek to curb this, and that could be described as threatening behaviour of a financial character. Is that to be called domestic violence? For my part, I think that including the adjective “financial” as being sufficient by itself to constitute domestic violence rather diminishes the impact of “domestic violence”. I suggest that Amendments 41 and 42 would be better amendments if that adjective were removed from them.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I support these amendments, as they show that noble Lords across the House recognise the appalling incidence of violence, particularly violence against women. The amendments seek to make clearer the way in which proceedings can be brought, but above all the fact that legal aid must be available to bring these proceedings in the circumstances outlined in the amendments.

I particularly support Amendment 43 in the name of the noble and learned Baronesses, Lady Scotland and Lady Butler-Sloss, both of whom have spoken to it. Above all, we need to realise that one of the reasons that action is not taken in areas where it should be is because the law on matters such as stalking is totally out of date. With the advent of new media, we are beginning to see abhorrent forms of abuse taking place against women, but the requisite law is not in place to deal with these situations. Amendment 43 emphasises who will be damaged by this abuse. Children will suffer in the long term. In many cases women subject to this abuse will not bring a case unless they have back-up and legal aid. The Minister has made good attempts to get the agreement of all parties to his proposal. Nevertheless, it would be very much better if he were to accept Amendments 41 and 43 in the names of the noble and learned Baronesses, Lady Butler-Sloss and Lady Scotland.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate but was moved to do so by not only my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland but the reference made by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, to the danger to children. Far too many women struggle to keep children in the family home in the teeth of abuse that can be very severe. The impact on the lives of those children tragically often continues to a stage where they become abusers because they have been kept in a situation where violence is seen by them as the norm.

My second point goes back to the early 1970s. I want to speak about false claims, reconciliation and the 12-month limit. I remember being approached by the wife of a Conservative councillor when we were trying to raise funds for a hostel for women and children who were the victims of domestic violence. This woman said, “You’ve got to keep on fighting. My daughter is the victim of abuse. My husband will oppose you in trying to get provision because he says her husband cannot possibly be abusing her because he is a barrister”. The daughter was a woman who had been forbidden to work, had no money, and was a victim of violence. Fortunately, her mother believed her but her father absolutely refused to do so. His only argument was, “Try for reconciliation so that you can see what a good husband you’ve got”.

I cannot understand the Government’s position in the light of experience being brought forward not only by those who work with women and men who are the victims of domestic violence but the UKBA and ACPO. This really is an amazing refusal to listen to the experience of those who work in this field, day after day. I hope that the Minister will be able to say that he will take this matter away. As the right reverend Prelate said, and as I say—drawing on my memory of that young woman who went back to be even more severely attacked—you cannot draw the line so tightly. This is not an area where you can say, “Twelve months and no more”. You have to have a flexible approach, and I look forward to the Minister saying, in answer to the question of my noble friend Lady Gould, what factual evidence there is that this matter relates to false evidence and false allegations. We can find no justification for that position.

I suggest to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, who asked about financial deprivation, that he contacts some of those who I mentioned. It is not a question of spending money that should not be spent on the household, but of people who are victims to the point where they do not have the bus fare to find somewhere to get advice and help. This is a group of people who do not need to have their rights restricted and they look to us to ensure that they are protected.

Crime: Reoffending

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I probably experienced the same feelings as every Member of this House, and indeed every member of the public, when I heard the news this morning about PC Rathband’s death. It is an immense tragedy that reminds us of the risks taken by everyone who dons a police uniform in our service—and some pay the ultimate price. I gladly share the noble Lord’s sentiment.

Of course the fear of being caught is one factor that deters crime. That is why we continue to give full support to our police services. The rehabilitation revolution attempts to address another problem: that of persistent reoffending. We are considering whether measures can be put in place to break the cycle. Evidence from various initiatives and pilot projects suggests that we can.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, on the theme of reducing reoffending, does the Minister agree that for women who have committed petty offences, the use of community sentences, combined with other forms of support, is more likely to be successful and is far less expensive than short prison sentences—not least because often children are involved who need to be taken into care and home-supported as well? If the Minister agrees, and with the Corston report already five years old, what steps are the Government taking to promote and adopt this approach urgently as a crucial part of their penal policy?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I fully support what the noble Baroness said about the treatment of women offenders. I have said before at the Dispatch Box that we have far too many women in our prisons. We will shortly launch a consultation on community sentencing. We are also, as the original Question suggested, moving a lot of this treatment to local authorities, with the funding and encouragement to take a holistic approach. As the noble Baroness rightly said, it is better that drug and alcohol dependency and other factors should be treated holistically.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 15th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Woolf]

My Lords, I hesitate to add to what has already been said. I hope that I do not impose upon my colleagues if I just say a very few words on this subject.

My experience is twofold. It comes first from being a practitioner and a judge, involved daily in the sentencing process for prisoners, and secondly, since I ceased to be a judge, from my involvement with the excellent bodies we have in this country trying to promote issues within the prison and justice system as a whole. In the former, my capacity is well known. I think it is also well known that I am the current chairman of the Prison Reform Trust. I am also the president of the Butler Trust. I know from my experiences that the Prison Service works hard to address problems. I have seen prison officers behaving in the most commendable way to try to alleviate the difficulties that they are faced with.

The fact is that, in all parts of the justice system, women prisoners need a separate voice, in exactly the same way as young offenders need a separate voice. I congratulate the Government on their decision to retain the Youth Justice Board. I am sure our justice system will continue to benefit from this. There is an opportunity now to add to what I will call that small victory with the establishment of the separate body to represent women which is part of this amendment. That, I believe, would be a substantial victory, because it would be creating something new which has been long needed, as we have heard. I hope that the message of this debate can be taken by the Government and acted upon.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I want to add my very brief words in support of these two proposals. Indeed, I hope very much that the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, and my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham will get together and work out the best framework. A women’s justice board—I hope that that title will be retained—is without doubt something that has been called for, for a long time. Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, I would like to say how pleased I am that the Youth Justice Board has been retained—very wisely, if I may say so.

It is clearly a fact that women need rather different treatment, which is increasingly being recognised. There is a parallel with the kind of treatment and systems for young people, because they are a special group. Women above all have care for their young, and it is crucial that we stop the business of separating children from their parents by the systems that we have within the criminal justice system. We have been told by the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, that it costs something like £15,000 to treat a woman within the community compared with £56,000 within the prison system. Far more important, even than that cost, is to keep the family together. One of the really good things that this Government are concentrating on, I am glad to say, is community sentences. It is with an increase of confidence in community sentences that we are likely to see these sorts of programmes for women really develop.

I also want to support my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham’s demand—and it must be a demand—for someone to be in charge. He has made this point again and again. Someone must be responsible for what is happening and reporting back to Parliament on the progress made. Programmes for treatment—not just for youngsters and/or women but for many people, whatever their age, within the criminal justice system—will emerge from this, and we can learn from the report back.

That is more than enough from me, but I support this hugely important initiative and hope that it will get off the ground as soon as possible.

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, this has been a short but very important debate, and I commend all those who have spoken so far, showing great expertise. We have heard their voices before on this subject, much to our advantage.

The previous Government commissioned the report from my noble friend Lady Corston after the tragic and avoidable deaths of six women in a short period who were detained in the secure estate. Her report of 2007 was a watershed moment in our understanding of women's experience in the criminal justice system. The recommendations were not limited to the secure estate but extended more widely to the entire criminal justice system, including the aim of preventing offending by women as well as dealing with women who had already offended. I am proud that we as a Government took forward the majority of those recommendations. Within just over two years, several were implemented in full; others were piloted.

We are concerned that some of the recommendations are no longer getting the necessary resources. Everyone knows that we all want the same end, but it is a question of what means are employed to get it. We invested £15.6 million in the provision of additional services for women at risk of offending in the community, creating one-stop-shop support services and developing bail support to meet the needs of women. I understand that that has now been lowered to £3 million and that three of the one-stop-shop support services are no longer being financed. One close to where I come from is in Derby. Can the Minister find out and tell us the position? Is much less money being put in than was planned and are three of the one-stop shops not to receive any funding in the next financial year?

We set up a central ministerial responsibility. Two powerful women Ministers, Maria Eagle and Vera Baird, were put in charge of ensuring that the Corston recommendations were fulfilled. I believe that Mr Crispin Blunt is now in charge, but no longer is there that successful joint ministerial responsibility. Why has the women's justice policy unit, set up in the Ministry of Justice but including civil servants from many departments, being disbanded? I hope that those are fair questions, and if the Minister cannot answer them tonight, of course he can tell us by letter in due course.

I support the two sets of amendments. It is good to hear that both noble Lords will get together so that another amendment can be put at Report, which we very much hope will be accepted by the Government or, if not, by this House. Far too many women go to prison each year. The system is clearly still out of kilter. We should be grateful to my noble friend Lady Corston for starting us on a route to fixing a system that has been described so graphically this evening, not least by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. Of course, the system is not fixed, as my noble friend Lady Gould said in moving her amendment. We want a system that works for the public, victims and offenders.

A powerful statutory voice at the centre of the system, whatever it is called, would be of huge benefit. As has been said around the Committee this evening, it worked very well with the Youth Justice Board. We are delighted that the Youth Justice Board is to survive. That would not have happened had it not been for this House. Its very existence hung in the balance for almost a year. It survived, and we are grateful to the Government, and particularly the Minister, who I am pretty sure played an important part in that decision. However, I hope that that does not indicate a certain state of mind towards the institution or organisation recommended in the amendments. As the Opposition, we certainly support the amendments and very much look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say in response to them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I strongly support this amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. As we come to the end of the Bill, I feel I must speak for many of us in saying how much we admire and welcome his consistent and valiant leadership on these issues. The House is all the better for his presence, experience, and what he has to say on the basis of that experience.

If the Bill really has had its Title changed by the intervention of No. 10 from “rehabilitation” to “punishment”, that is a very gloomy story indeed. I hope that the noble Lord will forgive my saying that I would be perfectly happy with a Title which referred to both punishment and rehabilitation because I am one of those who are absolutely convinced that it is part of a civilised society that crime must be punished. However, I also happen to agree very strongly with the noble Lord that the punishment is the deprivation of liberty and the singling out of a person as somebody who must be deprived of liberty. The challenge right from day one is how you enable that person to change their behaviour and become a positive member of society.

I am sorry if I have to repeat what I have said several times in debates in this House; namely, that this issue matters for several reasons. First, it is a wicked waste of taxpayers’ money to have any other policy because if you do not succeed with rehabilitation there will be reoffending, more trials and the costs arising from further punishment and further deprivation of liberty. That is a waste of taxpayers’ money. Secondly, if we are a civilised society, we surely care desperately about the person. We are not being sentimental but saying, “This person should be enabled to become a decent member of society”. That is the real challenge for a civilised society. Just to shut somebody away and put them to one side is a condemnation of the real strength of civilisation and of a society itself because it shows that we are not confident that we can win that person back into a positive position. It is very unfortunate that, aided and abetted by the worst elements in the press, this is somehow seen as a feeble approach; I was going to say a “bleeding heart liberal” approach. However, it is not: it is a muscular, tough approach. It is saying what needs to be done and why it needs to be done.

This issue also matters desperately because successful rehabilitation will ensure that that person will not reoffend. Of course, there will be some sad cases in which, try as you might, rehabilitation will not succeed. It is just being starry eyed to pretend that that is not the case. However, the challenge must always be to try to achieve rehabilitation. The more heinous the crime, the bigger the challenge to try to win that person back into positive citizenship. If we are putting a sane policy before the country, it is terribly wrong to be tentative and apologetic about the concept of rehabilitation. That is misguided, plays to the worst elements of the public gallery and will never win because it is a process of appeasing prejudice, and the appeasing of prejudice will never win the battle.

I am one of those who believes that a healthy democracy depends upon accountability and leadership —there should be a creative tension between the two—and that, all the time, enlightened leadership should be enabling society itself to move forward in its attitudes by arguing the case and trying to win the arguments. I am afraid that we are always defensive and apologetic when it comes to the attitude towards rehabilitation. We should be rigorous, and say that the people who are against rehabilitation are the very people who are exacerbating the problem of crime and the cost of crime in our society, and it is they who should be in the dock for aiding and abetting crime. It is as blunt as that. We have to come off our defensive, apologetic approach and come to an approach in which we determinedly argue the positive case for rehabilitation.

For all these reasons, I cannot say how glad I am to be able to support the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. Having known the Minister for as long as I have, and although I said a slightly barbed thing on an amendment a moment or two ago, I cannot believe that, in his heart of hearts or in his very good mind, he does not know the absolute logic of what the noble Lord is proposing and that he would not really prefer to be four-square behind it.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I certainly always wish to join my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham in his belief that rehabilitation is a crucial part of the criminal justice system. I was amazed that we could not attack the Title right at the beginning and talk about this as a rehabilitation Bill. I was sad about that because it seemed to me that many of the proposals within the Bill were, in fact, working towards a much more rehabilitative approach.

I was also sad about the fact that we have been waiting for this for so long. It is over 40 years since Keith Joseph made his great speech about the cycle of deprivation. That speech was made because he listened to the people who were actually doing the work on the ground. I am very sad that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London has left because we have relied for years and years on the Church of England to be around to try to help people coming out of prison and do a little to move them in the right direction. There is the whole business of lining up a programme of things that people can be doing as they leave prison that will see them back into a normal life. That requires somewhere to live, some sort of job or training to undertake and, above all, a friend or mentor. Again, these are some of the ideas that have been flowing round, and some of the voluntary and other organisations really want this whole approach to work.

I know that the Minister has made some very interesting updates to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. However, I cannot say that there were very many indications of really progressive activities that are going to take place, so if, when the Minister replies, he could tell us a little more about what is going to be happening, that would be helpful too.

I know that it is a late hour, but I must say that I think that the Government have been pushing us. To start such a debate at this hour of the night does not command a great co-operative spirit. It would have been much better if we had been given a reasonable hour at which to debate these important issues.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Prashar]

My Lords, I support the amendment. As the former chairman of the Parole Board, I agree with most of the comments that have been made so far in the debate. The discretion should be with the Parole Board and there should be an automatic review after 30 years. The concepts of hope and incentive are very important. In my experience, the fact that cases would go before the Parole Board was an incentive for prisoners. That is an important aspect. The Parole Board is also very good at risk assessment. It should be given that discretion with all the reports. I agree that it should then be the duty of the Home Secretary to accept the recommendation made by the Parole Board. I would very much like the Government to support the amendment.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I briefly add my support to the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. As has been rightly said, he stands up for instances where justice and fairness clearly need to be not just seen but interpreted correctly. I will also comment on what my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham said about this business of hope in what you try to achieve and for the individual who is there for life—for 30 years, anyhow—and about incentivising activities that could be of interest and help to any future he might have.

As the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said, I was a very early member of the Parole Board, and I think that the independence of the Parole Board in looking at these matters is absolutely crucial. I am a little doubtful about how important the Secretary of State’s role may be, not least if—as it will be—it were years after the offence was tried and committed and the decisions made. However, whether or not his role is important and appropriate, it will be most important that the Parole Board has independence and stands back.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

It is for those reasons that I support the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Gould. I urge the Government to respond to them and take on board the need for change that has been so graphically outlined by many people outside this Chamber.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, my name is attached to the amendment. The points that my noble friend Lord Wigley has made on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, are a fine illustration of why the stalking report that was published this morning is so important and its contents are so relevant to the points that have been discussed here already.

It is crucial that the backgrounds of serious and repeat offenders are seriously considered before decisions are made. Judging by the list that Napo has sent to my noble friend, there are indeed many instances of short sentences where not only has no treatment been given but there has been no effective outcome at all. One can imagine that there will be repeat offenders. On that point, I stress that in the Midlands in particular no fewer than five of these very short sentences were illustrated.

I turn to the second point, which is even more crucial: the effect on dependants. The numbers of children who have been affected in this way over generations must be into the millions. Let us think of the cycle of deprivation and the way in which their behaviour is no doubt going to reflect the less than desirable behaviour of their parents in the past.

Women prisoners tend to believe, I think with some justification, that they are given harsher and longer sentences than male prisoners. I remember visiting a women’s prison and being interviewed as a “victim”, as it were. This prison had been set up with a marvellous two-pronged system whereby you had to learn both the techniques of how an interviewing system worked in a broadcasting station and how to do the interviewing. For many of these women, who had no confidence at all in their own ability, to have to ask those kinds of questions was a big challenge. They said that they reckoned that they had tougher sentences. When you consider that many of them would no doubt have been sent with drugs in them, put there by manipulative people from outside the country as well as inside, we need to take what they were saying very seriously. I hope that the Minister will respond favourably to this amendment.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

I rarely disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, but I do on this occasion. I do not think that there is any evidence that women prisoners are dealt with more harshly than men. That is a point which should not have been made because it is irrelevant. In my experience as an advocate, quite the reverse is true.

On the amendments, I largely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has said, but they would not add very much to the present practice. The probation service always gives a social history—whatever that may mean—of the offender, and it goes into great depth. It also considers the effect of sentencing on dependants. Both those points, which are relevant for debate, are irrelevant as far as the law is concerned.

We have heard a great deal about stalking today. Stalking is a very serious offence and we ought to consider the report, but this is not the occasion to do so.

It is essential that whatever the probation officer has to say in a case is taken seriously and in my view, it invariably is. However, that goes to show that offenders must be represented if that provision is to take effect. All too often, the offender is not represented; by and large, it is important that the points which are made in the amendments are taken into account. So I urge that, wherever possible, the defendant is represented.

Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims (Amendment) Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Friday 27th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I add my thanks and congratulations to the Convenor, my noble friend Lord Laming. As others have said, there is no one in your Lordships’ House or outside with greater knowledge and experience of this whole issue and no one more suitable to take the Bill forward.

When I first became a juvenile court magistrate in the 1960s, domestic violence was not even seen in most areas as a law-enforcement matter. It was something to be settled within the family. Even in the 1970s, at the beginning of my 20-year chairmanship of the Inner London Juvenile Court, dealing with domestic violence only gradually became recognised as an important part of UK law enforcement. Today, dealing with such violence is increasingly seen and recognised as a law enforcement priority.

I warmly welcome this Bill, which extends the 2004 Act to bring justice not only to those whose actions result in the death of a child or vulnerable adult but also where serious injury to the victim has occurred. I hope that this will go some way to increasing support for greater powers to deal with other forms of family violence. Barnardo’s tells us that the number of sexually exploited children it works with has grown by 8.4 per cent to 1,190 over the past year. The Bill will also raise awareness of what has sadly become an increasing problem; that is, the abuse and trafficking of women and children into this country for sexual and other forms of exploitation.

Considerably more people today are able to travel and trade in different parts of the world but groups of countries, such as the EU, make it far easier for citizens of member countries to cross borders. With mobile phones and the internet, there are increasingly effective ways of setting up and operating evil trades as well as perfectly legitimate businesses. That is exactly what has been happening in the UK. The numbers trafficked into the UK for sexual or domestic purposes have grown alarmingly and we need far more effective ways of dealing with this situation.

I want to mention two associated areas of violence which need to be taken more seriously. First, trafficking is taking place not only from other countries into the UK but within the UK. The internet is increasingly used by groups of UK traffickers for grooming vulnerable youngsters and then moving them round the country for sexual exploitation. We need far better communication between individual police forces as well as changes in the law to deal with this issue.

Secondly, there is a growing concern about the crime of stalking and especially cyber, or internet, stalking where the stalker uses the internet to hound—and I mean hound—his victim. A group of parliamentarians, of which I am one, has been taking evidence on this issue and will publish a detailed report early next month calling for new and far more effective legislation to deal with the situation. The stories of deaths and injuries that we have heard from victims of stalking—the majority of whom, but not all, have been women—are horrifying. Often, whole families have had their lives literally destroyed as they move from place to place trying to escape a stalker’s obsession. All that points to a clear need for far tougher legal action to deal with the situation, which I hope will follow from this Bill. Other noble Lords have mentioned areas such as female genital mutilation, which absolutely is part of the same theme.

In the mean time, I congratulate all those who brought forward this Bill. I add my congratulations to the Government, who have played a major part in speeding up the process. I will not delay any longer its swift progress through the Lords.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach. There are 7,500 pages, and the devil of it is that a lot of these statutes interrelate. In many cases, finding a way through this stuff is, believe me, a job for a lawyer and not a job for the harassed citizen. Do not let us be carried away by the telephone helpline. It will help in all sorts of cases but in very many it will not. That is because, first, the complexity will outrun the knowledge of the person on the phone. Of course, the answer is that they should then refer the person to someone else, but I have to tell your Lordships that these advice lines—and I have experience of them too—are very powerful instruments. The second reason is that it is a commonplace that people find it very difficult to explain the facts and so on in relation to these social security measures face to face, let alone down a telephone line.

Therefore, I hope that we will be honest with ourselves and that the excellent civil servants, the excellent Bill team and the excellent Front Bench spokesmen will recognise that this is not territory with which we are familiar. I suggest that we need to be a little humble before we say categorically that the status quo after the Bill comes into force will be sufficient to enable hard-pressed, often bemused and sometimes desperate people to access the benefits that we have legislated for them.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, let us face it, the next group of amendments covers almost exactly the same area as this one. I shall reserve what I was going to say until we reach my amendment in that group. However, in view of the comments made by my noble friend Lord Wigley about running all these Bills together simultaneously, I wanted to point out that—believe it or not—in the Moses Room this afternoon, going on in parallel with what was going on in this Chamber there was a Motion about jobseeker’s allowance. Aspects of the Welfare Reform Bill and the legal aid Bill are interwoven in an appallingly complex way.

We have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, a very clear case as to why the whole exercise is going to be costly. I agree with the sympathetic point he was making for the Government: any change made to these forms of welfare help is almost by definition bound to involve extra cost and extra complexity, because it is yet another layer added to the thousands of pages that have to be understood by the professional expert. Then, one appears to be busily taking away, or making it much less easy to access, the professional help we have had in the past. There is also the point made that the CABs, which have been so marvellous in the past, are going to be shorter and shorter of money. The whole thing is becoming really worrying and I hope that the Government will reflect on this.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, like my noble friend Lady Lister, I often feel that after the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, has spoken, there is not very much to add. However, all noble Lords who have subsequently spoken have indeed made very valuable additional contributions. I would like to say a few words because this is a debate of absolutely central importance in our consideration of the Bill. We should all be extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, for moving as she did the amendment that she and colleagues have tabled. She raised an interesting and important point—among many others. Since such a high proportion of those who receive legal aid to support them in welfare benefits cases are disabled people, this policy may be in effect discriminatory against disabled people. That in itself is something that we ought to reflect upon. I hope that when the Minister replies he will be able to tell us whether or not this is the case, and if he thinks it is not the case, how he explains that.

The noble Baroness also reminded us of the high success rate of appeals and of appeals made by disabled people. Of course, the proportion of successful appeals is higher when people have been advised, when people appear personally in court, and when they are accompanied. If the Government are going to take away legal aid from welfare benefits cases, it raises the question of whether they want people who are entitled to receive benefits to do so. I believe that they do. I cannot believe that the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party do not want people who are genuinely and properly entitled to receive welfare benefits to do so. However, the reality is that if they take away legal aid in support of those cases, they are ineluctably going to prevent very significant numbers of people who should receive those benefits from doing so. I ask them fairly and squarely this question, and again I would like the Minister to respond specifically to this point: do they want all these people to receive benefits, and if they do, how do they suppose that they are going to receive those benefits?

Ministers at the Ministry of Justice have been pretty blunt hitherto in saying that they consider welfare benefits cases to be of lower importance than other categories of case which will continue to be in scope of legal aid. I would like to know—and again I ask the Minister to tell us in his reply—exactly why the Government believe that welfare benefits cases are less important than other categories of cases that they have determined should remain eligible for legal aid. I think that for people in poverty, welfare benefits are extremely important, and those people would be interested to know the Government’s explanation of their policy, just as we would be.

Of course, there are going to be growing numbers of these people. This is partly because of the recession, which is increasing unemployment and the hazards of life, and making much, much more difficult the personal, domestic, and financial circumstances of very many people. There is also going to be an increased number of people who wish to appeal against decisions that they should not receive welfare benefits, on account of the transition to the new incapacity benefit, employment support allowance, personal independence payments, and the whole panoply of welfare reform upon which the Government have embarked. This is undoubtedly going to lead to confusion, to administrative complexity, and to a higher error rate on the part of staff whose job it is to determine eligibility for welfare benefits. We are going to see an increasing number of appeals that people will very properly want to be able to make. The Government therefore need to have very good reasons indeed for why they are going to make it harder for people to pursue these appeals successfully. After all, they are expecting, by their own admission, to make savings to the public purse of only some £25 million net—a trivial saving, absolutely trivial, in the context of overall public spending.

What is going to happen to these people who do not get legal aid? They will try to go to other sources of advice, but the charities which might advise them are not going to be in a position to do so, as they have been telling us. The citizens advice bureaux in particular have been warning us very earnestly that they will not be in a position to provide the advice that they have been able to provide with the support of legal aid and local authority funding—neither of those, in large part, are going to be available. Would-be appellants—claimants—may then be driven to other kinds of private adviser. I dread to think what sort of advice they may receive from those sources. We are very aware in the immigration field that some extremely dodgy and dubious people offer advice who are frankly exploitative of people when they are in very great difficulties.

We will see an increase in self-representation: people will go to the tribunals to try and make their own case. The notion, to which the Government are so attached, that the tribunal system is a user-friendly, accessible, informal alternative to the court system, is a pipe dream. Of course it is highly desirable that there be more informal, more economical, more user-friendly systems of justice available. Again and again, attempts have been made to achieve that but, again and again, the system becomes less informal, more complex and more arduous to navigate, and people need expert help to find their way through. It is unrealistic of the Government to suggest that the tribunals system is somehow going to be there and that it will be all right for people to represent themselves.

The consequences of a policy that will result in people not being able to make their appeals in order to obtain the benefits that they should be able to obtain will include increased unemployment, particularly among disabled people, because if they do not have the tailored support that they ought to have, their chances of securing employment, with the odds already stacked against them because of their disabilities and in this very difficult labour market, will be further reduced. We will find more people in debt and suffering ill health, because poverty will mean that people will not be able to afford a proper diet or heating and will have to cope with anxiety about their poverty. We will see more cases of poor physical and mental health. All these predicaments will produce costs to other government departments. I fear that we will also see a greater resort to criminality as people despair and feel that there is no longer a just system available to them. I do not think that there will be savings to the public purse; there will be additional costs to the public purse. Above all there will be a great cost for all of us to pay in national shame.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, this group of amendments contains tremendous overlap. It is for that reason, among others, that your Lordships will see a number of our names on one another’s amendments. I am very happy to follow my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss, because we could not have a greater expert in what happens in courts. I am sure that we have all taken in everything that she was discussing just now.

I shall concentrate on the amendment that I have tabled, which is to do with young people with disability. As it stands, the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill will lead to some 75,000 young people under 25 losing legal aid each year. This amendment would provide particular protection for young disabled people.

Young people with a disability have usually received special protection and additional access to services in recognition of the fact that they may, and probably will, need additional support. The amendment would ensure that they continued to be able to access legal aid up to the age of 24. The definition of disability is that used in the Equality Act 2010, which identifies a person as having a disability if they have a physical or mental impairment and if this impairment is expected to have a substantial and long- term adverse effect on their ability to perform normal day-to-day activities.

Other amendments to the Bill seek to protect access to legal aid for all children aged up to 18, but there is a significant precedent for extending additional protection to young people up to the age of 24 and particularly to young people with disabilities. The Connexions service, which was set up to provide help and advice to young people aged 13 to 19, extended this help to young people up to the age of 24 who had a disability or learning difficulty, encompassing those with a statement of special educational needs, mental health difficulties, autistic spectrum disorders, dyslexia, ADHD and physical, sensory and cognitive impairments.

We also know that disabled young people are more likely to experience legal problems than other young people or older people with disabilities. Data from the Civil and Social Justice Survey showed that 56 per cent of under-25 year-olds with long-term disabilities had experienced problems compared to 35 per cent of all young people. It also found that young disabled people were more likely to experience legal problems than older people with a disability—51 per cent compared with 37 per cent. Disabled young people in general were more likely to experience multiple legal problems, in particular problems relating to housing, debt and welfare benefits.

JustRights, a coalition of more than 30 organisations in the children’s, youth and legal advice sector co-ordinated by the Law Centres Federation and Youth Access, has provided me with a case study which shows how legal advice can be vital in helping young disabled people to access their rights.

Chantelle was 18 when she came to the law centre for help. She had been born with cerebral palsy and had great difficulty walking. Her parents had to drive her to college and were worried that they could not afford to buy her a car and that she would be unable to attend university. They had applied for disability living allowance for Chantelle, but had been refused. The law centre helped Chantelle appeal against the refusal, gathering evidence from her school and her hospital specialist and representing her at the benefit tribunal hearing. Chantelle was successful in her appeal and was awarded the low rate of the care component of DLA and the higher rate of the mobility component. She swapped her mobility payment for a Motability car and passed her driving test. Chantelle now has a place at university and will be able to drive herself there each day, making a huge difference to her independence and quality of life, and probably her ability not to be dependant on other forms of public support. We know that advice provided early in cases such as Chantelle’s is cost-effective, and saves money in the long run through preventing the costs of problems spiralling.

I support all the amendments in this group. I hope that this particular modest amendment will receive a sympathetic hearing and acceptance by the noble Lord, the Minister, and I hope that he will give equal consideration to the equally important amendments that others are proposing.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

I speak to Amendments 80A, 82A, 82B and 82C. Perhaps I may first say how delighted I am to be speaking after so many passionate speeches about children, children’s welfare, and children’s rights by so many noble Lords, because children are a touchstone as to how we treat those who need help. My Amendment 82A simply adds to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and she has spoken to that so I will not deal with it.

Before I speak to this group of amendments in my name I would like to add briefly to the concerns expressed so eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. Before the dinner break, the noble Lord, Lord Newton, talked about the costs of taking children into care. He implied that there are—and I know that there are—huge costs in terms of finance and of social adjustment and academic achievement.

There is also a group of people whom we have not talked about this evening but whom I want to talk about: family-and-friends carers who can prevent children going into care and make sure they are well looked after. I want to make a plea for those people. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, was good enough to meet me and the Family Rights Alliance and a young family carer to discuss this. I hope he will be sympathetic. In a Green Paper on legal aid reform, the Government announced that they propose to withdraw legal aid from private law children applications. This will include applications by family-and-friends carers. A number of organisations concerned with the interests of children living with family-and-friends carers have raised anxieties about the impact of these proposals because such carers might in future be prevented, through lack of legal aid, from applying for the relevant order to provide permanence for a child, particularly when the other party in the proceedings, who is alleged to have failed in their parenting task, may be their son or daughter.

Following consultation on the Green Paper, the Government announced that a private law application would be retained within the scope of public funding, where the application was with a view to protecting the child who is at risk of abuse. This is not really the point. Clause 11 of the current Bill deals with the availability of public funding where the child is at risk of abuse. However the Government have made it clear that they will by regulation require that evidence of abuse is provided by the applicant in order for the application for public funding to be successful. This has its own limitations. The effect will be to prevent family members taking action to protect children when they are first at risk of harm—for example, when they are first subject to child protection enquiries. The 12-month time limit referred to in the Government’s response to consultation could also prevent a family-and-friends carer applying to court to take on the care of a child who is within the care system for more than 12 months. These potential carers will therefore not qualify for public funding to apply for residence or special guardianship orders because they fall outside the 12-month time limit. It is essential that family-and-friends carers with such an order have access to public funding to be legally represented at such applications. It is vital that the Government do not introduce such restrictions to legal aid, and I hope that the Minister will be able to comment on this, if not now then later.

I turn to my Amendments 80A, 80B and 82C. These seek to retain access to legal aid for young people aged up to 24 in social welfare cases. As it stand, the Bill will lead to nearly 26,000 people aged under 25 losing legal aid for social welfare cases each year—for example, over 9,000 for debt and 9,000 welfare benefit cases. The figure for employment cases is almost 2,000, while the 500,000 housing cases cost about £1.5 million.

The coalition has made commitments to support children and young people. For example, the recent Positive for Youth paper states that:

“This Government is passionate about creating a society that is positive for youth. Young people matter. They are important to us now, and to our future, and we need them to flourish”.

The MP Dr Julian Huppert supported this by saying that the Liberal Democrat youth policy included a commitment to providing young people with access to specialist support and advice on legal aid and responsibilities.

Young people’s alienation from the legal system and, in turn, from mainstream society needs to be addressed. Research, which has been quoted before, has shown that many young people view the legal system as there for their punishment rather than for their protection. Reform of legal aid provides a golden opportunity to create a more modern, client-centred system that does not serve to exclude this important section of society.

Protecting access to social welfare legal aid for all children and young people under the age of 25 would cost just £5.8 million a year. In comparison, the Prince’s Trust estimates the weekly cost of youth unemployment at £20 million. Protecting legal aid for young people with disabilities and for care leavers is likely to cost a very modest amount. I wonder if the numbers for these groups have been costed along with the other costs associated with them.

We know that many of the children and young people who seek help with social welfare problems are highly vulnerable and are unlikely to be able to navigate the legal system without help. Recent research shows that 80 per cent of 16 to 24 year-olds with civil justice problems fall into at least one vulnerable group—for example, they may have a disability or mental health problems, or they may have been a victim of crime. Half of the young people seeking advice are not in education, employment or training.

The Government’s recently published youth policy, which I quoted earlier, says that disadvantaged and vulnerable young people can be at risk of poor outcomes and need additional and early help to overcome the challenges that they face. Changing the Welfare Reform Bill may mean that more young people with disabilities face social welfare problems. The Bill removes the youth condition for qualification for employment and support allowance, which allowed disabled young people to qualify automatically for the contributory form of benefit. That means that many more disabled young people could potentially face means testing, although of course the House discussed this last week. The Bill also seeks to replace the disability living allowance with the personal independence payment, which will require a face-to-face assessment to qualify. This may lead to young people needing help to understand the new benefit regime.

With youth unemployment now over 1 million, this group of young people will be in particular need of support over the next few years and we cannot afford to abandon them. However, advice services for young people are already being cut. Local authorities are trying to spend 38 per cent less this year than last year on Connexions, the national information, advice and guidance service for 13 to 19 year-olds. Research by Youth Access, the national membership organisation for young people’s information, advice and counselling, found that 42 per cent of their members faced the risk of closure this year. Advice for children and young people can help stop problems escalating, generating considerable long-term cost savings. A new report by Youth Access on the impact of advice shows that removing legal advice from vulnerable children and young people may save money in the short term but actually cost more in the long term.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Prashar]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendments, particularly Amendment 15 in my name. I concur with all the comments that have been made so far because I am particularly concerned about the independence of the director of legal aid casework. Institutional pressure can work in very subtle ways. The director will be a civil servant and the new executive agency will be much more closely integrated into the machinery of government and subject to supervision by the Ministry of Justice. We know that the pressure to save resources can bear on individuals and therefore it is very important that there is a constant reminder that this person not only is independent but acts independently. Therefore, we need to build in some safeguards. While I am on my feet, I would like also to say that the other safeguard is the one in Amendment 18, which is about showing that the decisions made by the casework director are actually reviewed. I strongly support both these amendments. They are very sensible and I hope that the Minister will give concessions on them.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, as another non-lawyer, perhaps I may join in very briefly. I have listened to everything that has been said on this point, and what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said is particularly important. The Lord Chancellor has a different role. He might not have all the legal discipline of a lawyer, if he is not a lawyer.

I should like to make another point on the importance of independence that people are unfolding at this time. It illustrates the extent to which, if we cram everything into such a short space of time and so many Bills overlap—I am thinking about the Welfare Reform Bill and this Bill—it tends to leave us all wondering just how many amendments should be grouped together and whether they are being given the proper consideration that they should have. I very much support the intentions behind this group of amendments.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The issue that concerns me in Clause 4 is subsection (3). Under subsection (4):

“The Lord Chancellor may not give directions or guidance about the carrying out of … functions in relation to individual cases”.

That is fair enough, but he must,

“comply with directions given by the Lord Chancellor about the carrying out of”,

his “functions”, and he must,

“have regard to guidance given by the Lord Chancellor about the carrying out of”,

his “functions”.

What does that mean? Does it mean, for example, that the Lord Chancellor can phone the director or call him into his office and say, “Now, look here, you’ve got far too many of these judicial reviews going through in relation to government business. I am not telling you about any particular case, so I am complying with subsection (4). But when it comes to subsection (3), would you please bear in mind that my guidance is that we have got too many of these cases? The judges are complaining. The lists are full.”? What exactly is intended by Clause 4(3)?

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Whitaker]

My Lords, I will be brief. Very much following the speech of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I should like to add another slant to why the amendment should be supported. The trouble is that Clause 1, as it stands, does not confer access to justice. The wording does not make it clear that such a provision will meet individuals’ needs. It could be minimal, perfunctory and partial, and yet still comply.

What individuals need is the crucial element of what my noble friend Lady King of Bow called in her Second Reading speech the state’s compact with the citizen: that is, if the rule of law is unintelligible and unavailable to the citizen, their rights and responsibilities are withheld, so not only is the individual deprived of what they might be entitled to but democracy is significantly eroded. We should not allow the wording of Clause 1 to be unamended, and I hope that the Minister will recognise that.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, we have heard legal speeches from the top lawyers in this country, and no one should fail to recognise that. In particular, as my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss said, this is a very modest amendment that clearly takes account of the situation that we are all in. However, those of us—and there are many in this Chamber—who sat through Committee on the Welfare Reform Bill know very well where the needs are. There are needs other than those who are disabled or have special needs. As we heard, I think a couple of days ago, there are those who suddenly hit crises and need help.

Above all—from the way I look at these things; I wish we knew more—I support my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham’s plea for rehabilitation. One should consider the amount of money that we could save if we actually addressed the point about early intervention and all the matters that are now rising to the top of the list of things that are accepted but to which we are still not prepared to give the resources that are needed.

I also realise that there are difficult loyalties between members of the coalition. One or two of your Lordships have made their position clear, and I admire them for it. It is difficult to vote against your party. I almost beg the Minister to realise that the amendment would meet his and the coalition’s needs and should be accepted.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I have been involved with legal aid for longer than anyone except my noble friend Lord Phillips. I started in 1958.