Finance Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir William Cash]

I am not going to say that I did, but I put through an Act of Parliament, the International Development (Gender Equality) Act 2014, both to protect women and to promote their interests, with massive support from all parts of the House, so I want no suggestion that I am backward in coming forward on these issues.

New clause 7 contains weasel words. It does not solve anything. It is not in the interests of the United Kingdom not to deal with the problem properly.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I have raised the issue over a number of years, and I am pleased that we are debating it tonight. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is one of the ridiculous things that the European Union does, and that we need to get back in our own country control of how we levy VAT, which is why we should vote to leave the European Union?

[Sir William Cash]

I entirely agree with the hon. Lady’s last remark, for the reasons that she has given. We need to get back control over our own power to make laws, levy taxation and deal with all the matters which we do not need to go into today. The supremacy of this House affects tax, spending, and the way in which we run our own country. We have a right and a duty to return to the people of this country the right to govern themselves. This happens to be an extremely good example of the kind of thing that would help women in a way that I would much like to see.

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[Wes Streeting]

Well, we have the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers, which are accountable to their respective Governments and, of course, the Commission itself is in many ways accountable. I would like to see reforms to some of the accountability mechanisms, but as the old saying goes, “you’ve got to be in it to win it”. On Europe, as on climate change, inheritance tax and the debate taking place in the other place on tax credits, we have seen in virtually every clause debated this evening that this is not the new modernised Conservative party; it is the same old right-wing Tories. They have hung their Chancellor and Prime Minister out to dry, and I hope that the Opposition’s reasonable, centre-ground amendments will be supported by Members from all parts of the House.

[Kate Hoey]

I welcome new clause 7 and hope that everyone can unite in supporting it. I do not think it goes far enough, but it is a great step forward, and I would like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Paula Sherriff) on introducing it. Many people watching the debate tonight—and I hope many millions of women will be watching it—will have started to ask why we still cannot proceed on the basis of what I think everyone in the Chamber believes, which is that sanitary towels and tampons are not a luxury and we should have the right to decide the level of tax on any product in this country. The people who have listened tonight will know that whatever we say about negotiations and working with our EU partners—let us not forget it is the EU, not Europe—we will not be able to win the argument because the reality is that the European Union wants to maintain control of how we run our affairs in this country. This is the beginning of a hugely important debate on the referendum, and important issues of this kind would never be recognised by the European Union. I hope that the Prime Minister will go and at least negotiate, although I do not think he will get anywhere.

If the Minister really believes in democracy in this country, and given that our Parliament wants this tax reduction, why do we not just do it? What would the EU do if we did? I hope that every Member will support new clause 7 tonight.

[Mr Gauke]

It is a pleasure to respond to the debate. Let me begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) on his debut at the Opposition Dispatch Box—and what a debut it was, consisting of a speech lasting more than an hour. In the time that is available to me, I shall attempt to respond to his speech and, indeed, the many other speeches that we have heard this evening, but let me first deal with the measures that we are discussing.

New clause 9 would require the Chancellor of the Exchequer to undertake a comprehensive review of the inheritance tax regime within one year of a current budget surplus. Amendment 89 would remove clause 9 from the Bill, as a result of which the additional transferable nil-rate band for all individuals who leave their home to direct descendants would not be introduced. Clause 9 represents a commitment that was made in the Conservative party manifesto—a promise made to the British people—and recognises that more hard-working families face an inheritance tax bill than has been the case at any time since the introduction of the system nearly 30 years ago.

Last year, 35,000 estates had an inheritance tax liability. It has been forecast that that figure will nearly double, rising to 63,000, in 2020-21. Thousands more worry about leaving their families with inheritance tax bills when they die. The additional transferable nil-rate band will simply return the number of estates with an inheritance tax liability to 37,000 in 2020-21, broadly the same level as in 2014-15. I remind the Opposition that that level is still higher than the level in any year between 1997 and 2010. Furthermore, we have ensured that the wealthiest will make a fair contribution to the public finances through inheritance tax. It will not be possible for the largest estates to benefit from the new allowance. It will be gradually withdrawn by £1 for every £2 that the estate is worth over £2 million.

Those who support amendment 89 demonstrate that they do not understand those who wish to save, pay their taxes, work hard to own their own homes, and pass them on to their children and grandchildren without facing a hefty tax bill. We believe that it is right for people to be able to pass on their homes to their descendants rather than the taxman.

The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West expressed what sounded like concern about the fact that no properties in his constituency—or very few—would be affected. He also said that he opposed measures taken by the last Labour Government to introduce the transferable nil-rate band. I remind him that in the year in which those measures were introduced, 4.3% of estates paid inheritance tax. If we do not act, some 11% will pay it by 2019-20.

Given the comments that we have heard from the Opposition Front Bench, suggesting that they wish to raise more revenue from inheritance tax, I rather suspect that their desire for a review is connected with their perception of it as a potential cash cow. If I have misunderstood, I am happy to withdraw what I have said, but that seems to me to be the direction in which Opposition Members want to go.

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[Mr Gauke]

Doing full justice to that question in the five minutes available for me and for the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West would be a challenge. This has been part of the VAT regime since 1973, but on this specific area, as we have heard, time has moved on and it is right that we look again at it.

[Kate Hoey]

Will the Minister just respond to my question: if this is so dreadful and we all want a change, why do we not just do it? What would the EU do if we did?

[Mr Gauke]

It is not just a matter of the EU law; the UK courts would ensure that we have to comply with the law, one way or the other. I suspect that my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) would be happy to explain the position to the hon. Lady, but it would not be lawful for us to reduce that rate.

Greece

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 6th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

I have not seen that analysis, but I will have a look at it and report back to my hon. Friend.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I appreciate that the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not want to dictate to the Greek Government what kind of currency they should use, but will he have a word with the Prime Minister about the possibility of the two of them pointing out during their next conversation with the Greek Prime Minister that there is a bright future outside the eurozone, and suggesting that the Greeks look at the example of the United Kingdom and leave the eurozone—which, of course, we never joined?

[Mr Osborne]

My experience of the Greek Government is that they are very well versed in events here in the United Kingdom. They have certainly noticed our economic revival. I repeat, however, that it is not for us to say which currency they should use.

European Union Referendum Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 16th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jenkin]

I will endeavour to be as brief as possible in order to allow other Members to speak. I will speak primarily to amendments (a) and (b) to amendment 11, which stand in my name, but also in support of amendment 11, which stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash). I thank my right hon. Friends the Minister and the Foreign Secretary for the positive way in which they have engaged with the entire party on these questions. We are grateful for that dialogue. I think that absolutely proves that we are not in some re-run of previous grief. This debate is not even about Europe; it is, in fact, about how to conduct a fair referendum.

I have some experience of referendums, because I set up the “North East Says No” referendum campaign in 2004, which turned around a two-thirds majority in favour of a north-east Assembly into a 4:1 defeat. We operated under the provisions laid down by the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, which worked pretty well. The purdah provisions restricted what the Government did, although they are probably not tough enough. They did not prevent the then Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, changing the Government’s policy on what powers that putative Assembly would have only a few days before the postal votes went out. When we rang up the Cabinet Secretary to complain that the Deputy Prime Minister had breached the purdah rules, we were told, “That’s a matter for the Minister, not for me.”

That underlines the argument that the purdah rules are not tough enough, rather than that we should not have them at all, because they prevented civil servants from becoming embroiled in referendum questions, or being used by Ministers to promulgate the case that the Government wanted them to promulgate, and that is the vital protection. It is principally towards the impartiality of civil servants that I want to address my remarks, particularly given that, I am proud to say, I have been elected unopposed to the Chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee. I very much hope to persuade my fellow members of the Committee to address some of these issues during this Parliament.

I am disappointed that the Labour party has abandoned the principled position it adopted on purdah when it implemented the 2000 Act, which is quite extraordinary. I ran into Jack Straw, the former Foreign Secretary, this morning, and he was thoroughly disappointed to hear that the Labour party was backing off from supporting the constitutional legislation that it had implemented. Those ideas did not just come out of nowhere; they were ideas for a fair referendum that arose from the unfairness of the conduct of the first Welsh referendum, which were addressed by the Neil committee, which became the Committee on Standards in Public Life—the key is in the name. It was regarded as essential to have a period when the machinery of government cannot be involved in supporting one side or the other in a referendum campaign. The Electoral Commission would like 10 weeks, rather than just four weeks.

There are certain myths about purdah. The Government do not grind to a halt during a general election. Ministers even attend meetings of the Council of Ministers during general elections. However, during a general election a Minister cannot use their Department to promulgate information or to brief the press in a manner that is intended to affect the outcome. We want the same to apply in the referendum.

The letter from my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe, which the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond) has now seen, does not actually provide the reassurance that is required. In fact, by explaining what is contemplated, it confirms precisely the opposite. For example, it states that the Government,

“having taken a position on the outcome of our negotiations with the rest of the EU, will naturally be obliged to account to Parliament and the British people.”

There is absolutely no problem about accounting to Parliament in any purdah period about any matter at all, because it is privileged. There are no purdah rules that apply to anything that any Minister would say on the Floor of the House of Commons.

But are we seriously to believe, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) indicated, that civil servants should be used to put out press releases on matters that are being addressed by the referendum question, because that is what he is saying? That is precisely what should not be allowed. The idea that this will prevent Ministers from saying anything, and that somehow Ministers will not be able to take part in the referendum campaign, is clearly tosh. I seem to recall the Prime Minister being very vociferous in the run-up to the Scottish independence referendum, right to the last day of the campaign. However, he was unable to use his ministerial car, fly at ministerial expense or use the machinery of government to promulgate the messages he wanted to get across. There might have been a rather frustrating moment when he said, “I want to put out a statement”, and the Cabinet Secretary would have had to tell him, “I’m sorry, Prime Minister, but you can’t do that now that we are in purdah. You will have to do that through the no campaign or through your party.” That is exactly right. What is the point of the expenditure limits for the yes and no campaigns if the Government have 80 special advisers and thousands of press officers able to issue press releases, brief the media and organise media tours for Ministers? That is precisely what should not be available to Ministers during the closing stages of a referendum campaign.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I support that amendment, of course. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be even worse if we happened to get to a situation in which the leadership of the two main political parties were campaigning on one side? That is an even more important reason to have a proper purdah, if the referendum is to be seen as a free and fair.

[Mr Jenkin]

It is a simple matter of principle, which is why I think we would be right to press this to a vote if necessary, unless the Government accept our amendment. I really hope that they will, because it would simply put purdah back into the Bill, where it should be. I commend my right hon. Friend the Minister for saying that he wants dialogue on what the problem actually is and on how it can be addressed by amending the purdah regime, rather than scrapping it altogether and relying on assurances based on advice from civil servants who have clearly got it wrong.

I want to focus in my final remarks on the impartiality of civil servants, because this is really about what they can and cannot do. They must be in a position to protect their impartiality. They must be able to say to a Minister, “No, Minister, we are in purdah, so I cannot do that now. You must do that yourself or through some other organisation.” If they are not subject to purdah, it is the job of civil servants to support the Government of the day by carrying out the instructions of their Ministers, so they will be obliged to put out press releases, to help Ministers make the case and to use the machinery of government unfairly to support one side or the other.

I draw the Committee’s attention to the report that the Public Administration Committee produced just before the general election, “Lessons for Civil Service impartiality from the Scottish independence referendum”. The report shows that the Scottish Executive abused their position by sending out a rather political White Paper, some parts of which read more like an SNP manifesto than an objective Government document—that is always the danger with Government publications—but at least they did not send it out in the purdah period, at the most sensitive moment.

Not only that, but the advice of the permanent secretary at the Treasury, Sir Nicholas Macpherson, on currency unions was published in a completely unprecedented move on the basis that he had to “reassure the markets”. That was his excuse, and I am afraid that we regarded it as only an excuse. Are we to say that Ministers will agree to civil servants publishing their advice during the purdah period? Perhaps they might even be instructed to publish their advice during that period.

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[John Redwood]

The result in Scotland was pretty conclusive, so the expenditure of Government money was not the crucial thing that made the difference to the result. The result speaks for itself. But we can always learn from past experiences. For my choice, I do not favour the expenditure of public money on interfering in elections and referendums. I am known to be careful with public money anyway, and I would not want the money to be spent on this area. It is for individuals to decide what they wish to do by way of political intervention, and they can make their own decisions. If we let them have more of their own money to spend, they may wish to spend it on interventions in elections. That is how I would rather it was done. In this case, it would be particularly counterproductive for the European Union to spend some of our money, which we send to them, on intervening on one side. It would cause enormous resentments. Indeed, the no campaign might even welcome it as it would be a cause in itself which it would make use of if this became a clear use or abuse of public money.

[Kate Hoey]

I raised the issue of the EU on Second Reading. I had a helpful letter back from the Minister for Europe this week. Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on his final paragraph? He says:

“I would trust the proper diplomatic relationships with Governments and institutions, and encourage them to stick by their duty to respect the right of the British people to take their own decision responsibly.”

I do not feel that I can trust the EU on this very important issue. Does the right hon. Gentleman feel that?

[John Redwood]

I am afraid that I do share some of the hon. Lady’s worries. I would like to see that clearly stated in writing and as an act of policy from the EU itself. That would probably be much appreciated in many sections of the United Kingdom, so that we can be sure that there would not be clumsy, unwarranted or unwelcome interference. It would be a double irony if the EU were using our money to do it. That is what makes it particularly difficult. UK taxpayers of both views would be paying the money to the EU, but only one side of the argument would be funded by that money.

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[Kate Hoey]

I have just had a letter from the European Movement signed by the current chair, Lord Kinnock, who worked for the European Commission and will presumably have an EU pension, which he will have to declare. The European Movement has asked us all to join because it wants to campaign to keep the United Kingdom in the EU. That is a classic example of EU money being used directly to further the cause of those who wish to stay in the EU, whatever reform comes about.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

The hon. Lady is receiving a lot of letters this week, including one from the Minister for Europe and one from the European Movement. People are obviously interested in her views and she seems to have a great deal of sway on the Labour Benches—if only—as to how the debate will go forward. She is right.

I do not want to pick on the European Movement. I have many friends in the movement. I suppose I should declare an interest as a former Member of the European Parliament, I believe I have a pension that is nestled away out there for my dotage. However, I am very wary of the fact that the European Movement can fall on only one side of this debate, funded by British taxpayers’ money channelled through the European Commission. Will the Minister be able to tidy up the regulations to ensure fairness in the way that taxpayers’ money is spent?

There are a host of non-governmental organisations and some charities—this goes to amendments which the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond) and my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) spoke about—to which European funding goes. Those organisations may then feel obliged to take part and push forward their own ideas on one side or the other in a European referendum.

EU Budget (Surcharge)

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 10th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

I am sorry that the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) wants to leave, because we were just talking about the presence of the Labour leader. As the hon. Gentleman said at the weekend:

“‘I never believed the answer to Labour’s problems was to show people more of Ed Miliband.”

My right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) is right; on 27 October, he asked my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister about the position of the rebate. The Prime Minister said it was:

“One of the important questions that needs to be asked and properly answered”.—[Official Report, 27 October 2014; Vol. 587, c. 30.]

He said that that is what we are seeking to do. So my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire is right to have asked the question—of course nobody from the Labour party did—and that is why we were engaged in the intensive discussions to nail down the rebate.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Does the Chancellor not agree that this whole fiasco just shows that we are paying far, far too much to the European Union, that we should be seeking ways of getting back control of our country, our own borders and our own system of justice, and that the sooner we get a referendum, the better?

[Mr Osborne]

I completely agree with the hon. Lady, which is why I made the point at the end of my remarks that the whole episode demonstrated why we needed reform in Europe. She, of course, is one of a growing number of Labour MPs who join us in wanting to see that referendum—I hope she can persuade the Labour Front-Bench team.

Air Passenger Duty

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

It really comes back to the point made in an earlier intervention about chipping away at it and trying to use arguments to undermine the tax and its anomalies and to highlight its impact at the regional level. We took the view that it was most important that the long haul part of the tax should be devolved because we were about to lose Continental Airlines flights into Northern Ireland. That issue had immediate priority.

As the Executive have discussed again just this week, we believe that the problem is UK-wide. One of the reasons why this debate is important and why we did not frame it solely in terms of Northern Ireland is that we believe it is about a UK-wide issue. If there is to be change, it should be made here in Westminster rather than the full cost—anything up to £90 million—being borne solely by Northern Ireland. That would have a significant impact on the block grant.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I fully accept that, but does the hon. Gentleman not accept that Northern Ireland is special and different because there is a lot of sea between it and the rest of the UK? Those who cannot afford to fly have to take a long route. It might help if Ministers sometimes did not fly to Belfast, but took the route that many poorer people have to take because it is so much cheaper to go all the way up to Stranraer.

[Sammy Wilson]

That is exactly right. The road or road-and-rail journey is also long and expensive.

To sum up, I trust that during this debate we will hear from Members about the impact that they have seen the tax having on the parts of the economy that they represent across the United Kingdom. Since there is to be a review of green taxes, semi-green taxes, pale green taxes, taxes that used to be green but are no longer, or whatever, and given that this issue should be revenue-neutral yet fit in with the Government strategy of export-led growth, I trust that APD will be given serious consideration in the review of fiscal policy.

Age-related Tax Allowances

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gauke]

If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the measures in the 2012 Budget, he will see that the amount raised from the wealthiest, in increased stamp duty on the most valuable properties and the cap on reliefs used by the wealthiest to reduce their income tax bills, raised far more money than the cost of reducing the 50p rate of income tax—a rate that the evidence suggested was not raising anything like the sums for which the previous Government hoped. There is a good reason why the Government in which he served for many years had a top rate of income tax of less than 50p: a top rate of 50p is not a terribly effective way of raising revenue. We must place this in the context of all the other measures that the Government are taking for pensioners. The overall tax system remains favourable to them, and there are measures that protect pensioner benefits, not least the triple lock for the increases in the basic state pension.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I, too, apologise for not being here earlier, particularly to support my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) in his moving of the motion.

Does the Minister not agree that so many pensioners feel aggrieved about the change because having worked hard all their lives and saved for their retirement they now discover that they are getting absolutely no interest on their savings? Many of them have been living on their savings interest, and now they do not even have that—and will not for the next few years, it seems, if the Bank of England’s new independent director is right. Does the Minister not understand just how angry many pensioners are? They feel they have been let down.

[Mr Gauke]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about the difficulties faced by many of those who rely on their savings to support themselves. It is in all our interests that we have a strong and growing economy, and in the current economic climate it is right that we have low interest rates. We acknowledge that that creates difficulties, but the alternative—higher interest rates—would have significantly damaged the economy over recent years. Importantly, we have been able to bring in the triple lock, which has enabled us to increase the state pension at a faster rate than before and has included the largest-ever cash increase. That demonstrates the Government’s commitment to supporting pensioners wherever we can.

It is also worth re-emphasising that as a result of the decision to remove age-related allowances no one will pay more tax than before. Other factors, such as wage inflation and increases to the basic state pension, may, of course, affect tax liabilities, but no one will pay more tax from one year to the next because of the policy change alone. In fact, people over the age of 65 who pay no income tax at all—about half of all pensioners—are completely unaffected by the reform.

It is also worth reminding right hon. and hon. Members that, as the Chancellor announced in the Budget two years ago, the Government remain committed to exempting pensioners from national insurance contributions. There is a strong, principled case for that, because people have contributed throughout their working lives on the basis of a return, and I distinguish that argument from the one about personal allowances. I have debated this matter on a number of occasions and have never heard a strong case for those under the age of 65 having a lower personal allowance than those over that age.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes an important and interesting point. In that debate in November, a number of hon. Members from different parts of the UK acknowledged that there were concerns and there needed to be a fresh look at the issue of APD, not only to tackle congestion in the south-east, but to recognise some of the representations made not only by Scottish and Welsh airports, but by those in the north-east—specifically, Newcastle and Manchester airports.

At that stage, the general view of those representations was that the issue did not affect only Scotland and Wales; it affected the wider UK. Air passenger duty puts a significant amount of funding into the Treasury so it is important to consider the issue in the round. A number of airlines as well as airports have made representations and different business and tourism concerns have been raised.

The issue of the perceived anomalies around the Caribbean destinations was raised as something that ought to be investigated further. The Caribbean Council has raised a number of issues; I believe that it has made direct representations to the Minister, as have some of my Labour colleagues, I understand, in the hope that something could be done.

I am also aware of the “A Fair Tax on Flying” campaign, as part of which more than 200,000 e-mails were sent. Many MPs received hundreds of e-mails during that time from constituents concerned about the issue.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Obviously, my hon. Friend will know that there were special circumstances for Northern Ireland; the Northern Ireland Committee, of which I am a member, made that clear. Does she not accept that the United Kingdom has the highest air passenger duty of any part of Europe and that we should be moving towards taking the duty completely away? In the meantime, does she not feel that devolving the matter to Wales and Scotland might be a way forward?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I know how much of an interest she has taken in the issue. My concern is to look at the matter sensibly in the round. The problem is that, if the amendments were implemented, we would once again have a piecemeal arrangement in which something might happen for Scotland and Wales, but nothing would happen across the wider UK.

As SNP Members reminded us, we are a United Kingdom and we want to ensure that we have the benefits of the United Kingdom and continue to do so. The comments from the SNP suggesting that somehow the 2014 referendum was a done deal and that Scotland would be independent are far from the reality on the ground when we speak to the people of Scotland. Without wishing to open up earlier debates, I should say that I have absolutely no difficulty in arguing for a strong United Kingdom. That does not mean that I would support everything that the Government would do, as some suggested. I am sure that the Minister and others know that that is far from being the case.

Cyprus

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

The public will be outraged that British nationals are having their money stolen from them on the orders, let us be frank, of the German Government. Can we now move forward with legislation in this Session of Parliament to put on the statute book the power to have a referendum in this country on our relationship with the European union?

[Greg Clark]

The hon. Lady will know that these matters have been discussed in the House. The Prime Minister has made a speech in which he said that if he is re-elected there will be such a referendum. As to whether the legislation should come before the House before the general election, that is for others.

Multiannual Financial Framework

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I support the amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless); as a signatory to it, I am delighted to do so. I am also delighted that members of my Front-Bench team are, for a change, on the same side as me and my hon. Friends the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) and Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), among others. It is nice to see so many people in the Chamber.

We sometimes say, “This shows Parliament at its best.” If this amendment is not passed tonight, we will be showing Parliament at its worst, because a lot people here will not be doing what they really want to do. A lot of people here, on both sides of the House, will be doing what their party has asked them to do. I believe, fundamentally, that the issue of Europe has reached the point where party is not as important as the issue. I genuinely believe that we, in this Parliament, are way behind the public on the question of Europe. I am pleased that things seem to be moving in the direction of the Labour Members and the Government Members who see things as I do. Many of us have worked together on this for many years, going back as far as the time of the Maastricht treaty, when the same pressure was applied by the Labour Whips to vote on it as is probably being applied to Government Members now.

I do not believe that the public would understand the nuances being used here. I refer to the weeny words of the Minister, who was not prepared to give way to me for some reason—I do not know what I have done to upset him—on the issue of why the Government could not support the amendment. He said that it was because the amendment did not contain any criticism of my party when it was in government. We have made criticisms of my party when it was in government—I have done so, as have my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North and various others. Many Labour Members and many others within the Labour party did not support the rebate being removed.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Many of us have been critical of the giving away of the rebate, both publicly before the last election and since. The Government make much of that event, but I have said to them in this Chamber, “If you feel so seriously about it, why haven’t you demanded it back?” They have had two and a half years to do that.

[Kate Hoey]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Tonight, we have an opportunity to make it public that there is a united Parliament, for whatever reason and motive. The reality is that we are a united Parliament and we are saying, “We do not want one penny extra spent. We want to see a cut in what the European Union is spending.” I want to see more than that. I want a referendum on our relationship with Europe. I want an end to this nonsense, which we keep putting up with. We could make a decision tonight that says, “We do not want to see an increase—we want to see a cut.” However, come the end of the process, by majority voting, we could be outvoted, no matter how many diplomatic skills we use. I am sure that many hon. Members think that they could do better if they were negotiating, but no matter how good our negotiating skills we may not get what we have asked for. My view is that we should veto at that point and then, when we are sent our bill, we should say no and tell them that we will send what we agreed. We should tell them that we will not send them an increase.

[Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)]

Given that the Minister and the shadow Minister both said that it is the policy of the Government and Her Majesty’s Opposition that they would wish to see a reduction in the European Union budget and given that there is a motion before the House asking for such a reduction, will not the public find it bizarre if that does not go through tonight?

[Kate Hoey]

In my simple way, that is what I am trying to say. We are beginning to look really out of touch. It is beginning to look as though we are not interested in the people we were elected to represent. I believe that tonight is the night when we can make that difference and really change things.

I must make an apology. I am very lucky that my constituency is literally five minutes away and I agreed some time ago that at 6 o’clock I would light the bonfire on Hallowe’en night. I shall leave to light the bonfire and I shall come back to vote. I hope that on that bonfire there might be something to signify something about the European Union; it would be rather nice if there were. It is not likely, however.

Finally, I ask Members to realise that they should not worry about who is with them in the Lobby tonight. They should not worry about whether they are in the Lobby with people with whom they would rather not be in the Lobby. They should recognise that they are going into that Lobby to represent the people who elected them and should think about what they would want them to do.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I appreciate that the hon. Lady has a hectic social schedule, to which we have all become privy, and I understand that she will have to leave at some point, but I know that she will want to hear the next speech.

[Kate Hoey]

indicated assent.

[Mr Speaker]

I am extremely grateful to her. I call Mr Peter Bone.

Draft European Union Budget

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Leslie]

The hon. Gentleman was perfectly free to table his own amendment, and he pitches a perfectly respectable position. I thought that it was important to draw the Government into adopting a stronger stance, and a reduction in real terms is, at the very least, the place where we need to see the Government, but we could not get them even to that point. He has seen the motion; it falls short in so many ways.

Real-terms cuts are required now to the EU administrative budget, because in the UK we are in a double-dip recession, thanks in part to the Government’s failure on economic growth. The economy shrank in the last quarter of 2011 by 0.4%, and in the first quarter of this calendar year by 0.3%. Borrowing hit £18 billion in May, up £3 billion on the same month last year, and pressures on the UK’s finances are increasing: domestic tax revenues have fallen and income tax receipts are 7.3% down on the year to May. Today the Office for Budget Responsibility, in its fiscal sustainability report, cites projections suggesting that the public finances are likely to come under pressure in the longer term, and states:

“In the absence of offsetting tax increases or spending cuts this would widen budget deficits over time and eventually put public sector net debt on an unsustainable upward trajectory.”

There is much more evidence than ever before of the need for us to strengthen the Government’s negotiating stance. That is why it is just not good enough for the Government to say, “There’s not much we can do about it. It’s a qualified majority vote this year. We’re in a terribly difficult position,” and why in our amendment we have, sadly, had to point out that the Government have failed to win alliances for a tougher position on the budget. That is where we are today.

There was the phantom veto in December last year, when nothing was actually vetoed—everything went through with the agreement of the other EU countries, and the Prime Minister succeeded simply in alienating the UK’s negotiating position. Now, when we need to make strong arguments about reducing budgets, few are listening and open to ideas because of the stance taken by the Prime Minister in those negotiations.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I want whoever is in power in this country to negotiate over our budget in a much tougher way. Does my hon. Friend agree that perhaps the only way for us to get the European Union to take us seriously is to say that we will not pay any more than what we think is a fair contribution and increase? Indeed, given all the waste, there should be not an increase, but a decrease.

[Chris Leslie]

That is why we need to change the approach of Ministers in negotiations. We have to come to a settlement. This year, we are on the cusp of Ministers having a veto power over the seven-year spending review period. This is the moment when we need them to be particularly firm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

If it was done as a simple transaction, that would be the case.

The Commission’s budgetary expenditure is divided into five headings. “Sustainable Growth”, which mainly involves the EU structural funds, and “Preservation and Management of Natural Resources”, which relates to agriculture and the environment, are the biggest items and accounted for 87% of EU spending in 2012. “Citizenship, freedom, security and justice”, which relates to social policy, crime and policing, and “The EU as a global player”, which involves foreign policy issues, were the smaller items of the budget. The heading, “Administration”, relates to the finances of the staff of the European Commission and other institutional expenditure, such as that of the European Parliament, the Committee of the Regions, the Economic and Social Committee and various other EU agencies and quangos.

[Kate Hoey]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman’s attention has been drawn to the wonderful little DVD that has been sent to a number of Members by Marta Andreasen, who has done a terrific job of showing all the waste that has gone on and how massive amounts of taxpayers’ money are being wasted. If we stopped that waste, we would not have to increase the budget, but could cut it. Would he like to ensure that every Member of Parliament can see the DVD?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

It is not often that I would commend anything to do with a politician from the UK Independence party. However, if we look at the front page of the Financial Times from 1 August 2002, we see sitting beside Marta Andreasen at the press conference one of the MEPs for the East Midlands, who is now the MP for Daventry. She was the first person to hold the role of chief accountant of the European Commission who had an accountancy qualification. I am very keen that her expertise is shared. I have seen the DVD and it is well worth looking at.

The Minister set out some obstacles to the reform of the budget, and they are great. When there are big vested interests, with big countries getting way more money out than they will ever put in, there is no chance of reducing the budget under qualified majority voting. As I have tried to explain, we are one of the biggest net contributors, and we will continue to be so way into the future. However, we will always be outvoted on budgetary matters under qualified majority voting, because more countries gain from our expenditure than pay themselves.

Blocs exist to protect certain things. There is the bloc of net gainers, but France, which is a net contributor, exists in another bloc to protect one of the big areas of spending: the common agricultural policy. It does not want any major changes to the CAP, because that is how it diminishes its net payments to the EU. With such vested interests built in, reform of the European budget is much easier said that done, as the Opposition prove in their amendment.

Another problem with the EU budget is that its own auditors do not sign it off. This is the 17th consecutive year in which the European Court of Auditors, having checked the legality of EU spending, has refused to give it what is called a positive statement of assurance. Essentially, it has refused to sign off the accounts. As the Financial Secretary said, we must consider that alongside the fact that the European Commission constantly asks for much more money to spend but then cannot spend it properly. Until recently, it was running up massive surpluses in its own accounts.

There are also aberrations that people do not like. The latest is that we are told that EU chiefs are splashing out on a new £350 million headquarters, at a time when everybody else is having to cut their budgets. That new headquarters, by the way, is in Luxembourg, where MEPs no longer go because they are based in Brussels and Strasbourg. There is obviously too much money in the system. The case for reform is therefore greater now than it has ever been.

Although the European Council will not formally adopt its position on the European Commission’s proposed EU budget for 2013 until 26 July, member states’ ambassadors to the EU reached a deal on it yesterday, as the Financial Secretary mentioned. The Commission has proposed an overall 6.8% increase in payment appropriations compared with 2012, which amounts to about £7.2 billion—a decent sum. As he said, the member states’ position agreed yesterday means a £2.9 billion increase in payments. That is an increase of 2.79%, which can be compared with the EU inflation rate of 1.9%.

The Financial Secretary and I know that the UK, the Netherlands and Sweden all oppose the deal and will vote against it at the Council on 26 July. However, if we are the only three states to do so, the budget will be adopted by a qualified majority of countries in the blocs that I outlined, which want to receive more than they put in. If the estimated UK gross contribution of 11.3% to the 2012 EU budget were replicated, under yesterday’s deal the UK would pay about £12.2 billion gross into the budget next year.

Essentially, we are just about to increase the EU budget, and our part of that increase is £330 million. That would pay a year’s basic salary to 18,500 Army privates, the average basic salary to 10,500 NHS-qualified nurses, or a year’s basic salary to 12,500 police constables.