House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 1st April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, on the face of it, it is utterly illogical and ridiculous for me to have signed this amendment. I want to get rid of the hereditaries and the Bishops—no offence. I want to make this House at least half the size. I agree, a little, on all sorts of things with the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, but let us deal with size in a different place.

Leaders already have quite a lot of power. We have tested these people. That is the whole point. We know the records of the Lords we are getting rid of—we have seen them and heard them. To suggest that they might not be a fit is also illogical. Of course, they do not need the title. I am sure that a lot of us just love being Lords and Ladies, but they do not, because they have been Lords all their lives, so for them it is not a promotion.

This Bill has an element of prejudice—I do not like it. As a working-class person, I loathe privilege and this sort of nonsense, but, at the same time, I also resent separating people into groups where you pick on them —we had an Oral Question on this today. So I very much support this.

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Mobarik, on putting together an eclectic mix of people to support her—all women. That is interesting, I am not sure she intended that. This has been a painful debate and this amendment would close it. It would be an elegant solution to what has been a terrible amount of drudgery for all of us.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I have spoken sparingly on this Bill, wishing to speak only if I had something useful to say—a self-discipline which I note has not been practised universally during the course of the Bill. To summarise my position, the principle of hereditary Peers is unsustainable in 2025; the Bill should not be opposed; but the Bill has consequences for the functionality of this House.

I provided evidence at Second Reading that a hard-working, regularly attending cohort of hereditary Peers was making a valued contribution to this House. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, confirmed the point eloquently in her contribution. My solution was to convert some of them into life Peers.

If I understand the position of the Government correctly, the valued contribution being made to the House by this hard-working core of hereditaries is not disputed. Nor do the Government seem to refute, in principle, the idea of a conversion to life Peers—according to Labour Back-Benchers, you achieve that by putting the names on a party list and submitting that for approval, as is current practice.

So, if we have agreement on the two main consequences of the Bill, what is the best way of finding a solution when it is this Bill that is creating the consequences? The “prepare a party list for conversion to life Peers” approach has, to me, two obvious failings. It takes no account of the Cross-Benchers, who are very valuable Members of this House precisely because they have no party-political affiliation and have to sign a statement to that effect. They cannot organise a party list. Secondly, surely we owe it to the hard-working hereditaries who have been turning up and doing their share of the heavy lifting to recognise that contribution as a House and offer a House solution to what is a one-off event? This abolition will not recur.

The sensible amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Mobarik provides just that. That her amendment has drawn support from the noble Baronesses, Lady Foster of Aghadrumsee and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, speaks volumes for the common-sense desire across the House to find that elegant solution.

I had hoped that by this point conversations would have been taking place through usual channels to progress this solution, but it seems that this process has become constipated. If my noble friend’s amendment, with the authoritative support it has garnered, administers the necessary dose of laxative, it has my unqualified support.

Even the dogs on the street know that we have to come up with a solution. I hope the Government will sense the momentum behind this amendment, will become positive in their reading of the mood of the Committee, and will be prepared to come forward with something constructive.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I will not detain the Committee for long. I find myself very much in sympathy with the intention of this amendment and particularly with what the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, said a few moments ago.

Our tradition in this House is evolution, not revolution. We know the outstanding contribution that many of the hereditaries have made to our work. My concern is that in the ongoing work that we do, the sheer thousands of amendments that have been passed because of the detailed work that this House has done—I do not have the figures at hand—sorting out some complex but sometimes misguided Bills that have come to us, have often relied on some of the most expert, established and experienced Members of this House.

This amendment would not undermine the fundamental principle of the Bill. I think everybody in the Committee accepts that it has come because it was part of the election manifesto, and we want to work with that. But this would enable us to draw on the huge expertise and ensure that we can focus our abilities to keep doing our fundamental work. It would be only a temporary phase, and eventually the Bill would achieve what it wants to do. Meanwhile, I hope that His Majesty’s Government will look closely at this to see whether we can find a way through that draws on the best experience we can of the Members of your Lordships’ House as we take our work forward.

Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, while it is not a registrable interest, I am a member of the Church of Scotland, an elder of the Church and, with recent effect, a worship leader. With that background, I value the presence of the Bishops in your Lordships’ House as Lords spiritual; I am not sure that we voice that appreciation often enough. It is good to see the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London in her place: I see her and her spiritual colleagues less as advocates for the Church of England and much more as disciples of Christ and the manifestation of a Christian presence in Parliament, and I welcome that enhancement.

I am not precious about which Christian denomination discharges that role, and that is not intended to be disrespectful to the Church of England. What matters to me is that, across our different Christian denominations, we believe in the word of God as contained in the scriptures and we seek to live out that example. That is the tremendous strength that we have in common and what cements us together. So, as a child growing up in a sectarian Scotland, there was a lot which I found baffling. I heard the playground slights, the derogatory remarks about those from a different Christian background. What I found increasingly incomprehensible was that these two denominations, the Protestant Church of Scotland and the Roman Catholic Church were apparently commanded to do the same thing, to

“love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and … love thy neighbour as thyself”.

Perversely, this was traduced by so-called adherents of both Churches to a crass representation of hatred, intolerance and bigotry.

Let me be clear that the transgressors were not the practitioners within the two denominations but the so-called hangers-on, whose grasp of theology was tenuous, whose bigotry was entrenched and who personified a complete absence of Christian love and forgiveness. People were judged, dismissed as of no value and written off because of their surname, how they spelled their surname or where they went to school. Fortunately, increasing enlightenment and tolerance over decades have brought about much-needed change. I pay tribute to all the Churches in Scotland, the Scottish Parliament, the politicians and the charities that have worked so hard to erase this ugly stain of sectarianism.

My own parish church in Bishopton has a great relationship with our friends in Our Lady of Lourdes, the local Roman Catholic church, and there are many similar examples to be found across Scotland. Playing her part in this transformation with characteristic skill and compassion was Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. The historic and memorable visit by Pope Benedict to Scotland in 2010, when he was received by Her Majesty at Holyrood Palace, was a watershed moment. I was privileged to be there and the sense of history being made, of a new age of tolerance, was tangible.

This Bill is the essence of brevity but, in simple terms, removes an unjustifiable inequality. It abolishes an impediment which has existed for 196 years to a person of the Roman Catholic faith becoming, at the choice of the monarch, the Lord High Commissioner of the Church of Scotland. A Christian might be moved to say “Amen: what more is there to add?” As a Member of your Lordships’ House, I say, “A wrong at last righted, and high time too”. I can think of no more appropriate and distinguished incumbent under these new arrangements than Lady Elish Angiolini. To her, I extend my very best wishes and I support the Bill.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 11th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Burns. I want to start with what is undeniable. This House is good at its job; a core cohort of committed Peers and the bishops makes that possible. Let me say in relation to the bishops that I believe in a presence of faith in this House. They have the best Chief Whip of all, the Almighty, and that is good enough for me.

The principle of hereditary Peers is unsustainable. The Labour Party, in its manifesto, committed specifically to removing the remaining hereditary Peers and to introducing a mandatory retirement age of 80. These changes proposed by the Government have significant constitutional consequences, so where does this amalgam of undeniable facts get us?

It gets us into a bit of a mess, I am afraid, because there are no logical linkages between the start point of a House which is good at its job, reducing numbers, abolishing remaining hereditaries, sacking everyone who is 80 and over and ending up with a House which is good at its job. That will not be the end point. Others will have their view about how such fractured and disjointed reform can work. They will express specific concerns about the Bill and rightly focus on the very real problems of addressing poor attendance and minimal contribution to the work of the House, and a much-needed refreshment of the Salisbury convention. Well, I am a pragmatist, so I am going to address what is before us now.

I want to tease out what the Bill means in practice and explore whether there is any way we can reconcile the Government’s manifesto commitments with an end point of delivering a well-functioning House. Yes, of course, the Government can charge ahead with this legislation, but there are constitutional consequences. Let me make it clear that the following are my personal views—and I am not deliberately assaulting my colleague on the Front Bench with my notes.

I suggest that it would be helpful to separate the principle of what the Bill seeks to achieve from the consequences, and then have an intelligent conversation about managing the transition. To inform that conversation, I have done my own research on who the hereditary Peers are and what roles they have in the House. I can tell your Lordships, because I believe so passionately in this place, that this was a labour of love, because the task was not easy.

Of the 88 hereditary Peers, this is what I discovered. There may be minor errors, but I believe the main facts to be correct and am more than happy if anyone wants to verify them. They do not completely match what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, referred to, but we may have been looking at different sources. Six are Deputy Speakers, one of whom is the Convenor of the Cross Benches. An additional three discharge advisory panel duties for the Lord Speaker. Eleven are opposition Front-Bench spokespersons. Thirty-six serve on committees, of whom 20 serve on a single committee, 12 serve on two committees, two serve on three committees, one serves on five committees and, deserving of an award for valour, one serves on six committees. These 56 regularly contribute to the proceedings of the House. As for the remaining 32 not holding roles, I am here every week and my impression is that a considerable number of them also contribute. That is all part of scrutiny, so the question is: will removing the hereditary Peers impact on the efficacy of this House? Yes, I strongly believe it will.

Let me turn to the second commitment: the cull of the octogenarians. There are many people in their 80s in this House who are sharp as tacks. They do their share of the heavy lifting regularly and impressively, supporting the work of the House. They have the experience and mental acuity to do that well. Will their removal impact on the efficacy of this House? Yes, I strongly believe it will.

What happens if both culls take place at the same time? In my opinion, the functionality of the House is then seriously challenged, so, if the Bill is to progress, the Government, if they really care about this House and are not trying by covert means to reduce scrutiny and transfer predominant control of appointments to the Executive, have to be sensible and reassurance is urgently required. Here is what I suggest.

First, to preserve some degree of stability in this place, the Government should cancel the cull of the octogenarians and confirm their willingness to do that. Then, with immediate effect, through the usual channels, they should engage in productive discussions to invite party and group leaders to identify retirals of any of their Peers to assist in an early reduction of numbers. Secondly, the Government should consult with party and group leaders to prepare a list of the abolished hereditaries who should then be converted into life Peers; that conversion list has to be entirely separate from any party or HOLAC nominees presented for appointment in the usual manner. If the Government are able to provide such reassurance by amendment to the Bill, I anticipate that the proceedings of this House would continue to run smoothly.

I know there are many Members of this House, not least on the Labour Benches, who believe in this place and do not want to see it diminished. I believe that is the view of the Leader of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. But what is very clear to me is that, unless we can find some practical way forward, there is going to be a very difficult period ahead of us for this place. I have endeavoured to offer a non-partisan, practical way forward and I hope that the Government can be receptive.

In conclusion, in my view, any further reform of this House should proceed by way of consultation and consensus, not by a unilateral party edict.

House of Lords Reform

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, what a pleasure to follow such a feisty and articulate octogenarian as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. May he continue to entertain us for many years to come. I shall try to reduce this contribution to simple components: purpose, presence, pragmatism.

The purpose of this House is to scrutinise legislation from the other place, improve it—sadly, a frequent requirement—and, by our Chamber and committee activity, better inform public debate. By any assessment, we discharge that responsibility very well. The presence within this House of political parties, Cross-Benchers, Bishops and a number of non-affiliated Peers reflects an impressive array of experience, talent and expertise. That explains without need for further enlargement why we discharge our responsibilities so effectively. To be fair, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House acknowledged that. Pragmatism largely explains how we work. We make bad law good and good law better. The raucous exchanges familiar to elected Chambers are mercifully mostly absent from this one. By contrast, there is a discernible and collaborative desire to analyse and get to the heart of any issue, legislative or otherwise, and a House with the aggregate talent to be able to do that. I accept that to many onlookers the wonder is that this works at all, but it does, and those of us who attend regularly know that.

Pragmatism, I suggest, should be the overriding consideration in any attempt to reform this House. I see the House of Lords like an intricate tapestry. How many of us spotting a thread hanging down from a jacket or pair of trousers have tugged at it to find that the entire hem falls down or the seam falls apart, or have pulled an annoying thread sticking out of a button only to lose the button altogether? Let me make two general observations. If in the main this House functions satisfactorily, we should be cautious about embarking on change. That is not advocating for no change at all—very far from it—but rather urging clear analysis and identification of what the problems are before we try to solve them.

Secondly, if after such analysis change is considered necessary, it must be approached in a holistic manner with regard to how the House operates as a whole. If we do not do that, we neither understand the threads we are pulling out nor what the unintended consequences may be. What is unworkable is tinkering with the structure, removing a bit here and there, and hoping that the rest will somehow stumble along. The noble Baroness the Leader of the House calls that incremental, but I call it disjointed.

The Government are committed to addressing the issue of hereditary Peers in this House, and in their manifesto they also deployed ageism, opining that by the age of 80 you are past it and should get out. That is discrimination. We have just seen at first hand the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and there are sterling contributions made by Peers in their 80s whose experience is relevant, whose expertise informs and whose acuity is breathtaking. The proposal also drives a cart and horse through female representation in this House. I hope that the Government have begun to see the light, having recently appointed some imminent or actual octogenarians of their own, and they are very welcome. I would like to think that I am still good for a few years to go.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Thank you, my Lords. What the Government’s ageism experiment has demonstrated is that a disjointed approach to reform does not work. On the principle of hereditary Peers, we hit the same buffers. It is difficult to argue for the retention of such a system in a 21st-century democracy, but what is not workable is taking a machete to the hereditaries, culling 88 Peers from the membership of this House and expecting it still to be able to do its job. That is a constitutional onslaught. If at a stroke we lose these 88 Peers, who reflect a welcome age span, a geographical spread and diversity of experience and expertise, how do the Government expect proper scrutiny of legislation, adequate manning of committees, not to mention support for the Lord Speaker and his department and servicing the Woolsack? At present, our proceedings are not just enhanced by the hereditaries; the hereditaries are critical to getting the business done. That void cannot be filled by prime ministerial appointments. That takes the constitutional unacceptable to the constitutional repugnant.

This all goes much deeper than disquiet about the hereditary principle. It strikes at the heart of our British constitutional governance, our distinct and different role from the elected House and the largely unwritten but workable parliamentary equilibrium which has evolved over decades. I urge the Government to reflect very carefully before they start pulling out individual threads of the intricate tapestry. Intelligent change requires reflection, consultation, understanding of the implications of change and the wisdom of seeking consensus.

Defending the UK and Allies

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Monday 15th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

I very much welcome what the noble Baroness has said. Who gains most from freedom of navigation? It is some of the poorest people in the world. Not only in this action standing up for the principle of free navigation at sea but in the developing situation in Ukraine, the British Government have been extraordinarily active in protecting navigation.

In Ukraine, not least because of the consistent material support that the British Government have given to the Ukrainian Government, which we commit to continue, the Ukrainians have been able strategically to force back the aggressive actions of the Russian fleet and deployment in the Black Sea. That has enabled an opening of grain routes via the Black Sea and out to the world, which has led to very considerable exports of Ukrainian grain. One of the most deplorable things about the Russian attempt to block navigation in the Black Sea was that the people who gain most from Ukrainian grain exports are, as I said, some of the poorest in the world.

I assure the noble Baroness that we are working tirelessly with allies to keep an international focus on this. We were originally there as part of Operation Prosperity Guardian, which itself is an international and multinational action. I very much accept what the noble Baroness said.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I unequivocally support the action that the Government have taken and observe that it was not only the right course of action but the only course of action. I pay tribute to our Armed Forces for their precision and professionalism in discharging that essential task.

I ask the Minister to reassure me on one point and it is quite simply this: I know from my previous experience as a Defence Minister that paramount in any discussion about the deployment of our forces and our defence capability is operational security. It must dominate any further discussion on any future intervention, which I fear may be more likely rather than less. In this Chamber at least, can we be reassured that, if the Government are contemplating further action that involves deployment of our Armed Forces, absolute regard will be had to the need to keep matters covert until the intervention has taken place, and then there is an appropriate place for discussion in Parliament?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, there is a balance to be reached in these things. I agree with what my noble friend said. In terms of accountability, the Prime Minister came to the House of Commons and explained the position at the first opportunity. As I said in the Statement, he ensured that the leader of the Opposition was briefed, as we did in this House. There is a balance to be struck, but in no circumstances must we imperil our heroic service men and women by telegraphing and broadcasting what future operations may be. I assure my noble friend that operational security is fundamental.

However, she and the House can be assured that we are taking proportionate and deliberate action. My noble friend the Foreign Secretary wrote an article in the newspaper; I do not read them all, so I cannot remember which one it was—

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the Minister. We would very much welcome that; it would be extremely helpful. I will finish by wishing the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, a very happy birthday.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

That is very kind.

Amendment 66 withdrawn.

Crown Dependencies

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I draw attention to my entry in the register.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, my honourable friend Mr Robin Walker, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Department for Exiting the EU, has spoken with the Chief Ministers of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man following the 2017 general election as part of his regular engagement with the Crown dependencies on EU exit. We remain absolutely committed to engaging with the Crown dependencies fully in our work to ensure that their priorities and interests are understood.

[Lord Beith]

My Lords, I welcome the consultations that have taken place so far but they have yet to be tested under the pressure of negotiations. Does the noble Baroness recognise that access to the single market and customs union for agriculture, fish products and manufacturing under protocol 3 are important to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man and that a bad deal or no deal on trade would not only be disastrous for the UK but bad for the dependencies as well? Does she realise that, at the moment, they cannot all revert to WTO rules because Jersey, in particular, is having great difficulty in getting the application of WTO membership to it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie]

As I indicated to the noble Lord, the UK Government are engaged in close discussions with the Crown dependencies. There are formal quarterly meetings, specifically with the Chief Ministers of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, attended, as I said, by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State. A series of technical round tables has been organised with the Crown dependencies. The issue which the noble Lord raises is one of many of significance to the Crown dependencies, and these technical issues indeed include the area of agriculture and fisheries, where issues are being identified and this close pattern of engagement is being pursued. The Crown dependencies have been very positive about that level of engagement.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister perhaps say something about substance rather than procedure? What status in trade are the Government hoping to negotiate in Brussels on behalf of the Crown dependencies? Presumably they are not allowed to negotiate directly themselves. What status will that be? Will it be remaining in the customs union, remaining in the single market, none of the above and something I have not yet thought of, or what?

[Baroness Goldie]

Well, we shall have to see. I am sure that the objectives of these close engagements and good discussions are precisely the kinds of issues to which the noble Lord refers and are very much to the forefront of the minds of the Minister and the Crown dependencies. That will of course form part of our overall approach to the negotiations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness turn her mind to the position of the overseas territories, representatives of all of which I met yesterday morning? They are deeply concerned about their position if we exit the European Union, as some of them currently get up to 60% of their revenue budget from the EU. Can the noble Baroness give a guarantee that, if we exit the European Union, that will be made up by Her Majesty’s Government?

[Baroness Goldie]

I think that the noble Lord is being characteristically mischievous, if I may say so.

[Noble Lords]

No!

[Baroness Goldie]

He raises a substantive issue which is somewhat wide of the original Question, but that is not in any way to diminish the importance of the overseas territories, prominent among which is Gibraltar. These close discussions continue and the interests of the overseas territories are very much in the minds of the negotiators.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that the Channel Islands never joined the Common Market and are not members of the EU. Therefore, their position very much depends on the arrangements that they enter into with us and, in particular, their position in the queue to be able to market their financial services in the EU under the new equivalence regime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank my noble friend for that question. Financial services are indeed a key interest of the Crown dependencies, particularly given that sector’s contribution to their economies. The Crown dependencies are lobbying to ensure that these interests are recognised and are part of the EU exit engagement programme.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords, the Crown dependencies—particularly the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey—have a considerable stake in the hospitality and tourism industries, and it may well be that several of your Lordships will sojourn there in the next few weeks. People working in those places may be concerned about their future employment if they have come from other parts of Europe to work in hospitality and tourism. What comfort can the noble Baroness give to such people that can perhaps be passed on during the summer?

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. The issue that he raises is, again, very important and is very much at the forefront of the discussions to which I have referred. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, who is leading this engagement, is having regular meetings. I understand that the discussions have been very constructive and have been well received by the Chief Ministers of the Crown dependencies. I am sure that the Chief Ministers are advancing the very sorts of issues to which the noble Lord refers.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

Oh, I bring order to chaos! My Lords, the EU Committee has published a report on Brexit and the Crown dependencies, along with many other excellent reports, and we are still awaiting government responses to them. I am tabling lots of very serious Questions to try to get the best out of Brexit. Despite what the former Leader of the House says in HuffPost this morning, we are trying to get information. Therefore, can the Minister try to get government responses not just to these reports but to the Written Questions? Those of us who are trying to move forward seriously on this need that information.

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising an important issue. I am aware of the excellent work done by the committees. Interestingly, the reports of both the EU Committee and the Justice Sub-Committee were positive about the Government’s engagement with the Crown dependencies. I am certain that the noble Baroness’s plea is noted. I think that there is a desire to impart more specific information as soon as we are able to do so.

Informal European Council

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am sorry to start on a discordant note, but I am afraid that I disagree with the noble Lord’s assessment of the Prime Minister’s role at the summit. In fact, it showed that, once again, while we are a member of the EU, we will continue to play a full part. The Prime Minister opened the discussion on migration and was specifically asked to lead the discussion over lunch about the new American Administration. That is quite clear evidence that, while we remain in the EU, we will continue to play a central role in discussions. As I have said, we will also continue to make sure that we have a strong relationship with our EU partners as we go forward.

On some of the other comments and questions raised, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about the EU’s external investment plan, which, as she will know, was agreed in late 2016. It is now being considered by the European Parliament, and we are eager for it to be implemented as soon as possible. It is focused on creating economic opportunities in countries of origin and transit to reduce push factors.

The noble Baroness also asked about the conversations that the Prime Minister had about NATO. While I cannot speak for the President’s Twitter account, I can say that the Prime Minister was quite clear that she did get confirmation from President Trump that he is 100% behind NATO, and this was very much welcomed by our European partners.

On the Prime Minister’s discussions with Chancellor Angela Merkel, part of the reason that they were able to have full and frank discussions during the walkabout was that the initial meeting on migration finished quite early, so they had more time. As two women who get to the point, it is quite a good sign of the positive relationship that they have that they can discuss what they need to in a timely fashion.

Both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord asked about our relationship with the EU. Once again, I can say that we are absolutely committed to maintaining good relations with our EU partners; we want the best deal for Britain and the UK, and we believe that it is only right that the 27 continue to discuss their approach to our negotiations. We want to make sure that both sides have the most fruitful negotiations possible, and they need to prepare for those just as we are preparing for them in this country.

On the status of EU nationals living in the UK and UK nationals living abroad, as we have said, we are very keen to try to come to an agreement as soon as we can. In conversations with EU leaders, they have made it very clear that they want to discuss the status of nationals as part of the negotiations. There is good will on all sides, and I believe that the readout of some of the conversations that the Prime Minister had with the Prime Minister of Spain shows that. That is the position that the EU leaders have taken and one that we have to respect, but it is certainly a priority, and the Prime Minister once again showed that by raising it with her counterparts.

I assure the noble Baroness that we are all very clear that discussions and negotiations will be difficult and challenging, but we believe and are confident that it is in in the interests of the EU and of this country to come to the best deal that we can. We are starting from a strong position of wanting the best for the EU and for this country, so we are confident that we will get to a deal that we can all be happy with.

In terms of parliamentary scrutiny, the noble Baroness and all noble Lords will be aware that there has not been a sitting day since the referendum when Parliament has not discussed, debated or scrutinised Brexit in one form or another. There have been 70 parliamentary debates already on Brexit, as well as over 30 Select Committee inquiries. We understand and want the scrutiny of Parliament and Parliament’s involvement in helping with these negotiations. As I have said, I think that we are making good progress on that already.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, before we proceed to Back-Bench questions, I invite your Lordships to observe the normal rotational pattern of posing questions to try and ensure fairness of opportunity across the Chamber.

Brexit: Article 50

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how their plan to trigger Article 50 relates to the Conservative Party’s 2010 manifesto pledge to make “the use of the Royal Prerogative subject to greater democratic control so that Parliament is properly involved in all big national decisions.”

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s position is clear. Triggering Article 50 is a prerogative power and one that can be exercised by the Government. Parliament had its say in legislating for the EU referendum, which it did in both Houses and with cross-party support. Parliament was clear that it was for the people to decide whether to remain in the EU or to leave it.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords, I personally regret that this issue has got into the hands of lawyers because I think that it is a matter of political integrity and constitutional principle. Has the Prime Minister now gone back on her decision to endorse this particular statement in the manifesto; or does she now suggest that this is no longer a big national decision; or does she no longer believe that we should take back control in the Westminster Parliament, because we keep being told that Parliament is sovereign; or is it all three of those reasons?

[Baroness Goldie]

I need hardly tell the noble Lord that the manifesto to which he refers was succeeded by something called the coalition agreement to which his party was privy. In terms of that agreement and the ensuing coalition Government, the only provision that was made in relation to the royal prerogative was to provide for a fixed-term Parliament. I am sure that if the noble Lord was as exercised as he seems to be about this issue, his party would have had other things to say about it during the period of the coalition, but it was mute.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, a personal prime ministerial letter to Brussels triggering Article 50 is a one-way missive with no turning back. Is the noble and Scottish Baroness content that this should be done with no involvement of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly or the London Assembly and with no vote in the Commons? If, as we have heard, we are given the outcome of the court hearing tomorrow, will she agree to come back and report to the House should the judgment be that there should be a vote in the Commons?

[Baroness Goldie]

Let me try to deal with one or two of the points raised by the noble Baroness. It is the case that the parliament with sovereign authority in relation to the matter of negotiating our withdrawal from the EU is the Westminster Parliament, and it is also the case that the Prime Minister and her ministerial colleagues have been engaging closely with the devolved authorities, which is an entirely proper and welcome thing to do. It does not mean that the devolved Administrations either have a say in triggering Article 50, which they do not, or that they have a veto on the process because, as I say, the responsibility in terms of competence rests with the Westminster Parliament. On her final point, I can clarify for the House that my understanding is that the court judgment will be put up on the court listings tomorrow at 10 am. Until that point, there is little in the way of a commitment that I can give to the House about my future or intended movements.

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords, could my noble friend gently explain to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, that the object of Brexit is for Parliament to regain control of our affairs? The policy of the remainers, of which he is one, is that Parliament should not have control of our affairs but rather that it should be vested in Brussels.

[Baroness Goldie]

Not for the first time my noble friend has made a very eloquent and pithy point upon which I cannot improve.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness cite to the House an instance of the exercise of the royal prerogative over the past 50 years in any grave and weighty context? Is it the case that the Government do not regard this issue as being grave and weighty, or is it a possibility that there is a flicker of doubt as to whether they might or might not be able to carry the matter in both Houses of Parliament?

[Baroness Goldie]

Let me try to cut to the chase for the benefit of the noble Lord. What happened as a result of the EU referendum was that the people of the United Kingdom delivered an instruction, and that instruction was to leave the EU. Quite simply, the first part of the process, the necessary key that needs to be put into the ignition to start that journey, is triggering Article 50. That is what the Government propose to do.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I am most grateful. Is not the founding idea behind the European Union precisely that it should have to deal not with unreliable national democracies and parliaments, but with only their Governments? Why should this change now for Brexit, upon which our sovereign people have spoken?

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, I can only reiterate what I have already said. The most important and overriding feature about all this is the voice of the electorate. The electorate has spoken and the Government have an obligation to attend to the will of the electorate.

[Baroness Ludford]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Ludford]

Will the Minister please clarify whether the Conservatives still believe in parliamentary sovereignty, or in the radical left notion of popular sovereignty? The terms that the noble Baroness has just used about the instruction from the vote in the referendum, and statement from the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, that both Houses should respect the will of the people, speak of popular, not parliamentary, sovereignty. Do the Conservatives still believe in parliamentary sovereignty?

[Baroness Goldie]

My party believes implicitly in parliamentary sovereignty and my party believes in holding Parliament with due respect. I do not see any conflict in holding that position and in the actions already taken by the United Kingdom Government. I might observe to the noble Baroness that the intervening events from the manifesto, to which her colleague the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred, are that the Conservatives published another manifesto to prepare for the 2015 general election. There was no reference in that to the royal prerogative and, interestingly, the Conservatives won a majority to form a Government—not a privilege afforded to the noble Baroness’s party.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, referred to the importance of what he described as “political integrity”. Does the noble Baroness agree that it is clearly a matter of political integrity—when this House and the Commons, both without dissent, voted to have a referendum to determine whether we should remain in the European Union or leave it—that Parliament should abide by and act on that decision?

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Lord opposite for, frankly, a very sensible and welcome interjection that gets to the heart of the issue. There is an electoral mandate here. There is an obligation on government to implement that mandate.

Outcome of the European Union Referendum

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, vocabulary is inadequate to describe events post the EU referendum. There have been the appalling and repugnant incidents of racism, which we condemn as of one. On an almost daily basis, the political world has presented us with drama, crisis and shock as the body politic has ripped itself to shreds. Much of that has been accompanied by meaningless platitude, vapid generalisation, acerbic rhetoric and behaviour which transcends anything that even the most inventive scriptwriter for a TV soap opera could concoct. Among all this verbal detritus, a bewildered and divided public are looking for a vision, plan, map, compass or anything which might seem to have about it a whiff of direction or a road to travel. In the midst of this chaos, there are some certainties and we need to sift them out.

First, the result: the UK decided to leave the EU. I wanted to remain. I do not like the result, which I profoundly regret, but I absolutely must respect it. Indeed, the most certain way of keeping raw and bleeding the wounds of division across the UK is by not respecting that result. The recrimination, regret and blame are for the past. The future is about the new journey which we have been mandated to embark upon, trying to heal and unite as we travel, moving forward with purpose, focus, energy and hope, about which the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury spoke so eloquently and percipiently. The second certainty is that within two years of invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, the UK will leave the EU and the third is that the UK negotiations for that exit can only be led by the UK Government as a member state. Finally, by early September, we shall have a new Prime Minister and a Cabinet ready to lead these negotiations. It seems to me that these are the certainties, but that swirling around them are the tides, eddies, currents and undertows with hidden reefs, which will require consummate skill, astuteness and wisdom to navigate.

On a purely personal level, I observe that I am very sad it will not be David Cameron who leads us through these uncharted depths. I understand why he felt he had to resign and his decision was the correct one, but it makes me no less sad at losing him as Prime Minister. When he became leader in 2005, I had just become leader of the Scottish Conservatives. He was a huge support to me, always available to speak to, always ready with sound advice. He has provided firm and courageous leadership during very difficult and challenging times and I thank him for that tremendous contribution. I will not dwell inordinately on his successor, other than to define what I want, which is someone steadfast in their political views, steadfast with their political colleagues, steeled by experience at the highest levels of government with proven wisdom and good judgment —someone in whom the British public can have confidence. I want someone who is known to and respected by international leaders, including those in the remaining EU countries. I find one person satisfying those criteria and I make no secret of my support—it is Theresa May.

Different contributors to this debate will want to focus on particular aspects and it will surprise no one that I want to talk about Scotland, which voted decisively to remain in the EU, or that Nicola Sturgeon and I interpret that outcome very differently. I voted to remain in the EU, but on the basis that the UK would be the member state. That was the question before me. I read the ballot paper carefully and I do not recall any explanatory note saying, “By the way, if you live in Scotland, your vote to remain will be a Nicola mandate to keep Scotland minus the UK in the EU”. What a completely ludicrous, illogical and flawed proposition. An EU without the UK as a member state is a materially altered and changed EU. Who knows what shape it will take or what shape it will be in? So when Nicola Sturgeon says she has a mandate to try to keep Scotland within the EU, I say, “Just simmer down, you have nothing of the sort”. What she does have is the responsibility, as Scotland’s First Minister, to do all she can to ensure that Scotland’s best interests are at the very heart of the leave negotiations and that involvement can only be as part of the UK negotiations. Now, her Écosse charm offensive—clicking her stilettos around the corridors of Brussels—may assist these negotiations. She is a formidable communicator, but her role and her responsibility is to keep the Scottish dimension at the forefront of the UK negotiations, not to go off on some diplomatic exit frolic of her own.

Many may have doubted how divisive a referendum campaign can be. I have now lived through two doses of corrosive referendum acrimony and what is Nicola Sturgeon’s healing and measured contribution to this crisis? She wants to prepare for another independence referendum. It is a seriously misjudged response. It may reflect the Scottish National Party’s interests; it profoundly disserves Scotland’s national interest. First, 1.6 million votes in Scotland to remain in the EU do not cancel out 2 million votes to stay in the union of the United Kingdom. Secondly, the union she wants to leave accounts for two-thirds of Scotland’s exports; the Union she wants to join accounts for just 15% of them. Thirdly, the fundamental flaws of the separation case remain unaltered and every bit as stark: no central bank, no currency, a worsening budget deficit of £15 billion and business jitters.

My message to Nicola Sturgeon is this: your country’s interests are at stark variance with your party’s interests. Your duty in these turbulent times is to your country. Protect and promote Scotland by being at the heart of the UK leave negotiations. Use your considerable skills and undoubted ability to form and influence these discussions. Use your position to reassure the business community and to engender stability. Above all else, do not wreck that positive platform for progress by reigniting the destructive and divisive process of an independence referendum. We may have made a decision to leave one Union. That decision is precisely why we must strain every sinew to protect and preserve our remaining United Kingdom union.