Chemicals (Health and Safety) (Amendment, Consequential and Transitional Provision) Regulations 2026

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Monday 27th April 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions. Although we are having this debate in the Chamber rather than in Grand Committee, it is always good to have the opportunity to scrutinise things. The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, made an important point. These things should not go through without any consideration. They are too important for that, and the chance to have the conversation is welcome.

The regulations introduce necessary changes to a highly technical set of regulatory regimes, but the changes preserve the high standards of protection we inherited from our time in the EU and ensure we can continue to recognise decisions made by the European Chemicals Agency, which remains highly respected. I will try to go through the points raised. I will not get to them all and I will have to write, for which I apologise. I will start with the list from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, as she tabled the amendment.

First, the noble Baroness asked about adding the EU’s SVHCs to our list. The Government intend to make secondary legislation by June 2027, providing for the incorporation of the six EU hazard classes in GB CLP. The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, also asked about that. The work on developing that is already under way, and the HSE is currently engaging with stakeholders to understand the potential impacts of aligning with the EU on CLP measures, including its hazard classes. It has issued a stakeholder impact survey for exactly that purpose.

The work has been progressed separately from the SI, as I explained, due to constraints in the REUL Act that prevent an overall increase in regulatory burdens. The Government have made it clear that reaching a negotiated SPS agreement with the EU is a key priority. Negotiations are ongoing but we are committed to reaching an agreement by the end of this year. Broadly, it is expected that the areas in scope will dynamically align with the relevant EU legislation. I hope that reassures noble Lords on that front.

To be clear, we will continue engaging with the EU and other international partners at the UN GHS to consider the scientific basis for the six EU hazard classes. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, knows, discussions at the UN GHS have not yet concluded, so the outcomes of those discussions have not been determined. The UK will take into account the EU’s intended action in response to the outcomes of the UN GHS work when formulating our own position on the conclusions of the UN GHS consideration. I underscore that we intend to make legislation by June 2027 that provides for the incorporation of the six EU hazard classes in GB CLP, and that is being done separately for reasons I have just explained.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Stedman-Scott and Lady Bennett, raised questions about the resourcing of the HSE and its size. The HSE’s funding and its priorities and progress are monitored by the Government. DWP is the sponsor department for the HSE, and a delight it is. It is important work, much of which is at the centre of what we do. To be clear, the fundamental scientific judgments are not changing as part of our changing the regime here. The HSE’s business plan for this year confirms its continued commitment to concentrating on the most serious risks and to targeting industries with the greatest hazards and sectors with the worst risk management record.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, I note that the HSE significantly increased its resources to deal with the extra workload after leaving the EU. For example, on 1 January 2021 there were 262 technical staff in the HSE’s chemicals regulation division, working across the six chemical supply and use regimes. Today that division has approximately 440 staff—so where it is necessary to respond, additional resource is put into those areas.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, raised the issue of the regulatory approach and the noble Lord, Lord Redwood, pulled it from the opposite direction. The HSE’s regulatory approach is aligned with the requirements of the growth duty, but its job is to achieve the right regulatory balance between supporting safe business practice and protecting workers and the public. Proportionate health and safety regulations facilitate economic growth, but the key is that they have to be proportionate. The noble Lord, Lord Redwood, is quite right. This is not about taking risks or cutting corners on safety; it is about making appropriate, proportionate decisions. There is no point in leaving regulatory requirements in place if they serve no purpose and do nothing to make anybody safer but simply make things more difficult for business.

I should make a correction. Apparently, when I was talking about how biocides actually have a useful role in controlling harmful organisms, I said, “harmful organisations”. If I did, I was not dissing anyone’s organisation, just the organisms, so apologies for that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, asked about the jurisdiction question. We can already consider a jurisdiction from anywhere—this is about speeding it up—but I reassure the noble Baroness that qualification for the fast-track evaluation process has to be subject to the criteria set out in the SI. The only jurisdiction that meets them now is the EU; no other jurisdiction adopts GHS in the same way as the UK, apart from the EU, and no other jurisdiction apart from the EU has an open and transparent classification system based on public consultation, as we do. Other jurisdictions can submit proposals, but they will be part of the normal-track evaluation process, and any proposals to add jurisdictions which are considered to meet the criteria will be included in the HSE work plan, subject to consultation as part of the work plan, and decisions are taken by Ministers. However, the bottom line is that they have to meet the criteria—that is the safety net.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, asked about removing the special reference identification number. She mentioned cutting red tape. Cutting red tape can sometimes be good. Special reference identification numbers are not a requirement of the Rotterdam convention. They were introduced for use in an EU IT system to which we no longer have any access, so they serve no useful purpose. Therefore, removing the requirement of the companies to obtain a special reference identification number for small quantities of chemicals being exported solely for research or analysis removes a completely unnecessary burden on businesses and on the HSE as the PIC-designated authority. They simply do not have a function.

The noble Baroness asked about the disbanding of the Defra stakeholder event. Regular stakeholder engagement is really important in this area, as in others, but it can take many forms. I am advised that Defra will continue to engage closely with a range of stakeholders to gather their input, harness their expertise and share Defra’s thinking. It does not plan to organise any further CSF meetings but its engagement remains strong through its monthly chemicals NGO forum and the industry chemicals policy communication forum, as well as through relevant events. With regard to any HSE materials that were discussed in that context, I want to say really clearly that the HSE is happy to engage and consult with stakeholders at any time. If there are concerns about the HSE, I encourage the noble Baroness to get in touch with me and we can take that forward from there.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about the exceptional circumstances. Just to be clear, these reforms do not allow exceptional circumstances to be used to weaken protections. Divergence will occur only in exceptional circumstances and only on scientific and technical grounds, not on economic grounds. Government priorities explicitly emphasise maintaining high standards of health and environmental protection, and leaning into alignment with EU decisions unless scientifically justified otherwise. That could, for example, be the fact that more information may have come to light after an EU opinion had been issued, but it is scientific.

I am assured that the HSE’s commitment to align with EU discussions has been welcomed across all chemical stakeholder groups—although, I acknowledge, possibly not by the noble Lord, Lord Redwood. That reflects a strong commitment across a number of priorities, including reducing trade barriers that arise from divergent standards, which will support trading goods with our biggest trading partner, and protecting the UK internal market by ensuring that different regulatory requirements do not apply in Northern Ireland, significantly reducing the risk of supplies of chemical products no longer supporting the market in Northern Ireland.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Redwood, that this process is not about banning other products in Northern Ireland. One of the things that closely aligning where possible does is to protect Northern Ireland’s supply chain by making sure that the company will still be able to supply and will want to supply. The extent of agreement or divergence with EU classification proposals or decisions will be identified and reported in the HSE work plan. I hope that answers the question he asked about that.

I think somebody asked whether extending expiry dates would reduce risk protection. Just to be clear, these are substances that have previously been evaluated under the GB BPR, meaning that the risks are understood and they have already been approved for use. Postponing the expiry dates allows the HSE’s regulatory resources to be focused on higher priority evaluations, including first-time approvals where the risk is less well understood, and a limited number of high hazard renewals. I hope that makes a difference. It will mean that critical biocides remain on the GP market that in themselves would cause issues if they were not available. Nothing in the regulations allows new biocidal products which are not already on the market—rather, the purpose is continuity to ensure that essential products, such as those critical for aviation safety and safe drinking water, are not lost.

The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, raised the GB CLP notification database. In the absence of that, GB CLP suppliers can use other resources, such as the European Chemicals Agency’s analogous database, which may encourage agreement between EU and GB suppliers on hazard classifications of their chemicals, otherwise known as self-classifications. Duty holders also still have a legal obligation to self-classify. Substances that pose higher risks are already regulated under frameworks such as REACH, the GB BPR and the GB Plant Protection Products Regulations, or other downstream legislation such as the UK cosmetics regulation or the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations. This ensures ongoing oversight of relevant hazards and associated risks.

I may be running out of things I can usefully say. I hope I have answered the things that are critical to today’s vote. I can assure the House that I will look carefully at Hansard and write to noble Lords with questions that I have not been able to answer.

Although I am grateful for the scrutiny, I stand by the case I have set out for these regulations. This instrument is practical, proportionate and urgent. It keeps essential biocides available, safeguarding public health and critical infrastructure, while preserving the ability to respond quickly to emerging risks. It speeds up our regulatory decision-making so that it is more transparent and better targeted to GB needs, enabling us to align more quickly with EU classification decisions and prioritise chemical hazard evaluations of greatest importance to the GB market, and it simplifies export requirements under GB PIC while ensuring that we continue to meet our international obligations. These are measured improvements to ensure that the system works for Great Britain as intended, supports our chemicals industry, protects people and the environment, and allows the HSE to regulate where it delivers the greatest value.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, has been reassured and will not push her amendment to decline these regulations. If she does, I urge the House not to vote for it.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this quite short but important debate—perhaps shorter than we expected due to the absence of our Northern Ireland colleagues.

I particularly thank the Minister for a comprehensive, careful and clear response. I think there will be significant reassurance in what she said to the campaigners with whom I have been working. For all noble Lords who might be thinking about their dinner, I give advance notice that I am not intending to put this to a vote, having heard the debate.

However, I will say a couple of things. I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, for a very clear explanation of the importance of this debate and for the important point that relaxing time limits is not a mere detail but potentially a matter of great safety and health concerns.

In responding to the noble Lord, Lord Redwood, I have to say first that he spoke with some glee about strong disinfectants killing germs. I would love to have a chat with him about antimicrobial resistance and where that interacts with what he said. I also think he suggested that this is some kind of Brexit freedom. I point to the fact that, on substances of very high concern, zero for us and 44 for the EU is not some kind of freedom—I do not think anyone could reasonably call it that.

I was pleased to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott—indeed, from the Tory Front Bench—about the concerns about HSE capacity. The Minister pointed out that additional resources were being put into chemical regulation. Of course, unless the overall resources increase, that means that resources are being taken away from other places. I note in passing silicosis, which I have done a lot of work on and which is associated with machine worktops, and the issues around that.

I may have misunderstood the Minister’s introduction, which is undoubtedly my fault. I was pleased to hear about the EU’s six classes and that the Government intend to lay a statutory instrument on that by June 2027. I think I misunderstood that, thinking that that was talking about primary legislation in 2027. I therefore ask the Minister to write to me about what the Government’s framework is for primary legislation, because both the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the HSE itself say that primary legislation is absolutely necessary to enable us to keep up to date with the secondary legislation.

I will conclude with one final thought on what kind of chemicals we are talking about here. There is a class of chemicals known as second generation anticoagulant rodenticides. Many Members of your Lordships’ House and of the other place have been asking the Government questions about this, including my honourable friend Ellie Chowns. She was told that the Government were considering monitoring residues of these very dangerous chemicals in red kites, buzzards, sparrowhawks, peregrine falcons, red foxes, otters and hedgehogs. That gives a sense of the way in which we are contaminating our environment, our natural world, with some very dangerous substances. That is something I urge your Lordships’ House to keep a very close eye on. However, in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Pension Schemes Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Committee stage
Monday 23rd February 2026 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am simply not going to relitigate that all over again. Okay, I will give it two minutes, since the noble Lord has raised it. If he is referring to asset allocation mandation, as I made very clear during our debates on that subject, the trustees’ fiduciary duty should guide them, were those provisions ever to come into operation. If the trustees believe that they were not in the interest of their members, we would expect their duties to guide them to make representations and seek an exemption under the savings interest exemption test. That, along with all the other safeguards around it, deals with that question. Now, let me try and focus on climate for today; I have no doubt we will have plenty of other opportunities to discuss mandation, and I look forward to those.

Under the existing regulatory framework—I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, put it very well—trustees of UK pension schemes must already set out their policies on financially material environmental, social and governance factors, including climate change, within their statement of investment principles. They then have to publish annual implementation statements showing how those policies have been applied in practice. Since the Pension Schemes Act 2021, the larger schemes also have to publish annual reports aligned with the Task Force on Climate-related Financial Disclosures framework, the TCFD. Those disclosure requirements ensure that trustees have the information they need to make informed investment or divestment decisions.

The Government are strengthening these reporting frameworks to equip businesses and investors with the tools, standards and clarity they need to plan credible transitions and seize the opportunities of a net-zero economy. For example, last year DESNZ advanced an important manifesto commitment and consulted on transition plan requirements for UK financial institutions. Alongside that, DBT consulted last year on new UK sustainability reporting standards. My own department, DWP, working with the Pensions Regulator, is currently reviewing trustees’ TCFD requirements to assess the impact of the current climate disclosure regime, including a comprehensive stakeholder survey exploring the impact of TCFD requirements on governance, strategy, scenario analysis, risk management, member outcomes, engagement, reporting costs and future reporting. To support that, the regulator will present its findings on the practicalities of introducing transition plans for pension schemes to us this spring. These future reporting reforms are intended to modernise disclosures and provide schemes with critical insights into companies’ decarbonisation plans, which is information trustees can then use to judge whether investment or divestment is the appropriate course of action.

We should acknowledge the scale of the voluntary action that is already under way. Around two-thirds of UK pension funds now have net-zero commitments, many of them ahead of 2050. Funds are backing these commitments for significant investment: the London Pensions Fund Authority has allocated £250 million to its environmental opportunities fund; Border to Coast is investing in new UK wind and solar projects; and Nest has committed almost £1.3 billion to renewable energy infrastructure.

There is no single correct approach to managing climate-related risk. Trustees can, and do, divest where appropriate—for example, the Church of England Pensions Board announced its divestment from Shell plc and other remaining oil and gas holdings in 2023, following more than a decade of engagement. However, we recognise that some pension funds could, and should, be doing more. We will continue to support and challenge the sector in rising to that task. The right levers are better governance, better data and better transparency, not hard-wired requirements to decarbonise that remove trustee judgements and risk unintended harm to savers’ long-term outcomes.

Amendment 212 would prohibit schemes holding certain fossil fuel-related investments, even where companies have credible decarbonisation plans. The Government believe that such rigid prohibitions risk rushed divestment and would undermine trustees’ ability to exercise informed judgement. For those reasons, the Government cannot support this amendment.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

It is very easy to cherry-pick individual schemes that have taken action but, as I said in my initial comments, the Financial Innovation Lab says that there are still more than £10 billion in thermal coal investments. Some industry research due to be published shortly by Corporate Adviser Intelligence shows that seven of the largest 19 schemes used for automatic enrolment, including Aviva, Royal London and Scottish Widows, remain invested, via their default fund, in one or more of thermal coal, tar sands and Arctic drilling. Another, SEI, reported that it has excluded these sectors but, last summer, it still had holdings in Glencore, which mines around 100 million tonnes of coal a year.

So, although there are these nice examples, such as those just provided by the Minister, surely the Government must look at this as an overall whole and see not just some good case studies but the norm and the rule right across the industry.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

It is probably worth me being really clear on the Government’s position. We recognise the high financial and climate risks associated with thermal coal investment. We support strong climate risk governance and expect trustees to integrate climate considerations into decision-making. We welcome industry-led reductions in coal exposure, as well as broader alignment with net-zero goals where we see them. However, we want to see more. As I have just said, we want specifically to challenge schemes to do more; I was offering examples of where things are going. Exposure is expected to decline over time, driven by market forces, global moves towards cleaner energy and evolving investment practices, but we still think that it is essential that trustees and managers retain the flexibility to make responsible long-term investment decisions in the best financial interests of their members.

I turn to Amendment 218A from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. I thank her for taking the time to come and discuss these issues with me; it was a very helpful meeting. The question of whether pension trustees may take long-term factors into account in their investment decisions is manifestly not a new one. I will not rehearse the full history, but we should acknowledge the considerable body of work that already exists in this space; in case I did not want to do so myself, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, helpfully reminded us of some of that. We had major contributions from the Law Commission in both 2014 and 2017. More recently, in 2024, as the noble and learned Lord said, the Financial Markets Law Committee produced its comprehensive report. Alongside these, there have been several respected legal opinions, including Eversheds’ work on behalf of NatWest Cushon and that of Sackers for ShareAction, which relates directly to this amendment.

Across all these analyses, one central principle emerges with complete consistency: a trustee’s primary duty is, and must remain, to invest in the best interests of scheme members. However, what is equally clear is that a degree of uncertainty persists, although I take the noble and learned Lord’s point on whether or not it should. Trustees can, and do, reach different interpretations of how their duties apply when considering factors that extend beyond immediate financial returns, such as climate risk, demographic pressures and impacts on members’ future living standards. Although these matters are often long term in nature, they can be financially material and are plainly relevant to both savers and the wider economy. We recognise the need to give trustees greater confidence in this area.

However, the Government do not agree that creating a new statutory duty in primary legislation is the right or necessary approach. The current legal framework already allows trustees to consider ESG factors, systemic risks and long-term impacts where they are financially material. That position has been consistently affirmed.

Women’s State Pension Age Communication: PHSO Report

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Monday 2nd February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, tempting though it is, I will save my wider comments on the Pension Schemes Bill for tomorrow, when I look forward to seeing the noble Lord once again in Grand Committee. It has been a great delight in recent weeks and I look forward to having the pleasure of discussing these things again tomorrow.

In answer to his questions, the decision was not inevitable. The Secretary of State looked at the evidence, assessed it all carefully and made a decision. Having made that decision based on the evidence, he issued a statement and put his reasons for the decision in the decision document which has been placed in the Library of the House.

I have two further points. One is serious, in that I agree on the importance of people saving. The Government are pursuing the Pension Schemes Bill and all the measures in it to make sure people get proper returns on their money, to ensure people can save more. That is why we set up the Pensions Commission to look at questions of adequacy. Secondly, if the noble Lord’s Government had really wanted certainty on this matter, they could have made their decision at any point before the election—but they did not.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, following the previous question, I note that saving for a pension is extraordinarily difficult for so many people who are struggling to put food on the table and keep a roof over their head. It is really important not to preach to them about savings that they cannot possibly make.

I declare an interest in that I first met the WASPI women in 2015 and advised them on their first petition to Parliament. I am afraid I had to somewhat gently say that yes, they would get 100,000 signatures on that petition and Parliament would debate it, but it did not mean that the obvious sense of their argument would suddenly win. Politics does not work like that. So, here we are now in 2026.

My question to the Minister refers to one particular WASPI woman I met on the road outside here. She had quit her job at the age of 59 because her company was making redundancies. She thought she would get a pension very soon, so she left and took the redundancy so that younger people could keep their jobs. She then found that she would not get her pension for years. She ran out of the redundancy money and ended up on jobseeker’s allowance. She applied for job after job and did not get them. She had been an office manager for decades for a medium-sized enterprise. Then, the Department for Work and Pensions insisted that, to keep her jobseeker’s allowance, she must go on a CV-writing course and a whole lot of other really basic pieces of training. She felt utterly mistreated and abused.

I understand why the terminology in this Statement is the way that it is, and that the Government are talking in careful legalese, but as we have seen in reports today, the WASPI women are planning to fight on, and good on them. More than that, can the Minister understand how people who have been put through that ringer of a decade of poverty and struggle, and of being thoroughly disrespected by the system, would also like to hear words that acknowledge that?

Welfare Reform

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Wednesday 2nd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I probably have not explained this as well as I could have—I apologise to the noble Lord. We absolutely regard as the single biggest challenge the fact that the incentives are in the wrong place when it comes to universal credit. So we are doing two different things. First, we are separating support from your capability to work, abolishing the work capability assessment and looking at how a single assessment can be used to make the appropriate judgments, giving support on the basis of need.

Secondly, we are making absolutely sure that we do not put you in the position of there being perverse incentives, so you end up making decisions that would not be good for you in the long run. There are 200,000 disabled people who reckon that they could work now with the right support and would like to. We should start by giving the right support to those who want to work but simply are not able to. The noble Lord is right that we should be challenging everybody, making sure that they are making the right choices and supporting them, but the first thing to do is to get the incentives in the right place, or it will never work.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, in continuing the cuts to the health element of universal credit and denying it entirely to people under the age of 22, the Government are offering in recompense the fast-track £1 billion support plan to get people back into work. Yet in a BBC report on 27 June, a senior DWP official was quoted as saying that the Government did not have

“a properly considered or deliverable programme”.

Another DWP official was quoted as saying that not much has been done since this plan was announced in March. How many officials are working on that plan and how far has it progressed?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I assure the noble Baroness that the department is absolutely focused on this. There is not one single aspect of these changes. We are trying to turn around the entire department, from one that had a very heavy focus, understandably, on processing benefits, to one that is focusing on supporting people into work. The crucial bit, as I mentioned earlier, is helping every individual work coach to focus on how we get somebody into work and support them appropriately. To correct one thing that the noble Baroness said, she mentioned access to PIP for young people. We consulted on that—

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

It was universal credit.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I apologise. We consulted on support for young people in the Green Paper and will look carefully at the results.

This Government are committed to making the lives of sick and disabled people better. If people have severe conditions and are never going to be able to work, they deserve to live in dignity and we will support them. However, if they could get a job and improve their own lives and those of their families, we will support them in that too. I hope that the whole House will want to support me in doing that.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Committee stage
Wednesday 25th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope I have made the case, in speaking to the amendment that we have been discussing, that the law already provides those protections—or it will do so when the provisions of the data Act are implemented, if those changes have not already been made. For my money, we could not have been clearer that the Bill creates no new automated decision-making powers. DWP and fraud and error decisions are always made by humans. There is a debate to be had, broadly for the future, which is where the work being done by DSIT is really important. That is where protections across government to future-proof things need to be brought in—not in this Bill, which does not introduce any new automated decision-making powers.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, in particular the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, for his strong support, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for his expert contribution, which essentially said what I was about to say in my summing up: we are not necessarily talking about what this Government are doing; we are talking about ensuring that the legislation is there to put controls on what future Governments do.

This is the second time in a week that I have basked in the warm glow of support from everyone except the Government; I could get used to it. It is as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, said. If the Minister is saying that this will happen, why not put it in the Bill? I will go and have a look at what she said about the data Bill. I suspect that I am probably involved in that one, too—I have so many Bills at the moment that I slightly lose track. We will look at this carefully before Report.

This will be my final contribution in this Committee because I will shortly have to run to the Chamber. We have had very fruitful debates. It is a pity that such an important Bill was not discussed in the Chamber; it will impact on many of the most vulnerable people in our communities. It is crucial that we get the Bill right and that it is seen to have had the full and proper scrutiny it deserves, but I think everyone in this Committee has done their best and we have made a good foundation to take forward to Report. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Committee stage
Monday 16th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister made a powerful point about the position of the current Opposition. As she identified, the old-age pension being covered in the former iteration of the Bill caused an enormous amount of concern. Obviously, all the groups we are talking about are potentially vulnerable, but old-age pensioners are particularly vulnerable and prone to be stressed and worried about this situation. Can the Minister assure me that the Government will not put the old-age state pension underneath the Bill?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity to recover my voice and to say that not only will we not do it but the Bill says explicitly that the measure cannot be used on the state pension, so there is no question of it being used for that.

The case load is really straightforward. Fraud in the state pension is so low that it is the one area where the NAO does not qualify the accounts. We have to have a rationale. The reason we have chosen these three benefits initially is specifically because they are the areas where fraud is significant, and we know the information is out there that could make a difference. I can absolutely reassure the noble Baroness on that point: without amending primary legislation, this measure cannot be used on the state pension, and the Government will not do that. Any subsequent Government would have to change the law to be able to do it. I am grateful to the noble Baroness.

Pension Review: Phase 2

Debate between Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle and Baroness Sherlock

Wednesday 18th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I think that might be slightly above my pay grade. The Government want to make sure that everybody can save an appropriate amount for retirement. For that to work, one of the starting points is that people have to earn enough in their working lives to be able to have an option of saving anything. The measures that the Government have taken, in our plans for jobs and in looking at what we are doing with the national living wage and to try to drive good work, are about trying to drive economic growth, get more people into good jobs and help them to stay there and to grow in their careers. The work has been done around the Get Britain Working White Paper. All the plans around that are trying to get people to develop in their working life and to be more productive to drive economic growth. That is a win-win. It is good for the country and good for individuals and their families.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Returning to the case of the WASPI women and the Government’s ruling against them, can the Minister tell me whether the fact that the Government have overruled the evidence-based decision of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman is likely to be open to legal challenge? If there is a legal challenge, will the fact that the Labour Party campaigned for WASPI women during the election campaign have an impact on the case?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I think anything is open to legal challenge if one can find a lawyer to take a case. There have been legal challenges in the past on this decision. If there are again challenges, the Government will present their case. The noble Baroness mentioned that the ombudsman looked at the evidence —so did the Government. We looked very carefully at the evidence. One of the things we have been doing for the past six months is going through line by line every piece of evidence that the ombudsman offered, looking at the evidence we have and what we understand, and we reached evidence-driven conclusions. That is the basis on which we made the decision.

I recognise that it is not a decision that everybody is happy with. I recognise that there will be women born in the 1950s who are disappointed. But I am also convinced that most of the disappointment and, indeed, much of the campaigning and noise were actually about the change in the state pension age and its timing, rather than the very narrow decision that the ombudsman took. The ombudsman said that it was simply about the way DWP communicated with people about the state pension age. The ombudsman found that between 1995 and 2004 the communications were absolutely fine. There was a 28-month period when, although other communications were out there, such as campaigns, employer campaigns et cetera, those letters should have been sent earlier. We have accepted that, and if any legal case comes we will present our case in court, as we always do.