Queen’s Speech

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved on Monday 14 October by

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as follows:

“Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament”.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, I must begin with the convention of saying what a pleasure it is to follow the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, albeit some 20 hours after he sat down. Like him and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, I propose to address the main part of my remarks to issues of foreign affairs and defence.

In the course of his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, said that he often felt that his thunder had been stolen by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard. The truth is that by the time Kerr and Ricketts—the old firm of the Foreign Office—have finished, there is not much thunder left for the rest of us. In the course of yesterday’s debate, we had two quite remarkable speeches from the two noble Lords. They concentrated and drew on their extensive and much-valued experience from the Foreign Office and provided a quite remarkable tour de raison.

My views on Brexit are well known. I do not believe that there is any deal or subsequent political agreement which will offer the United Kingdom better advantages than those we enjoy today as a member of the European Union. We have the opt-out from Schengen and the single currency, plus the rebate; no other member enjoys those privileges. I have to say that the difficulties of the last three years corroborate my view that the best interests of this country are to be served by remaining a member of the European Union.

I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, who I do not believe is in his place, who laid down something of a challenge to those of us who support remain. I will make the point this way, if I may: it is a privilege to be sent here, but with that privilege comes an obligation to exercise our best judgment. I venture to say that my best judgment is that remaining is the best solution to the constitutional, economic and political crisis in which we now find ourselves. I cannot for the life of me understand the logic of a position which says that we must observe the referendum result, irrespective of the consequences, in all circumstances. That is hardly sensible, nor indeed logical.

With that by way of a preliminary, may I say that I fear my contribution today may be more episodic than thematic? In the gracious Speech, we learned that the Government wish to continue playing a leading role in global affairs. The future of NATO is a global affair, and it is to that that I wish to address the main part of my speech.

Over the weekend, at the plenary meeting of the NATO parliamentary assembly, serious differences emerged among the delegates from Turkey and those from other members of the NATO assembly. These differences reflect the equally serious differences within the members of the alliance itself. Who could possibly think, and justify the notion, that the action authorised by Mr Erdoğan is an anti-terrorist operation? Who could possibly think that with air strikes and heavy armour, there will not be civilian casualties and—as we have seen to the extent of perhaps as many as 150,000 people— the mass displacement of thousands of civilians? This operation is an intransigent and opportunistic operation, made possible only by the ineptitude of President Trump; no doubt with an eye to re-election and having learned nothing from the adverse consequences which have flowed from his unilateral renunciation of the Iranian nuclear agreement. Neither the newly imposed sanctions by President Trump nor the dispatch of the Vice-President and the Secretary of State to Turkey can now rescue the position.

The truth is that, within NATO, Trump and Turkey have form. The United States’ failure to sell Turkey the Patriot missile defence system prompted Turkey to respond by buying from Russia the S-400 missile system, in the teeth of almost unanimous opposition from the other members of the alliance. Trump’s response to that has been to kick Turkey out of the F-35 aircraft programme. Who benefits from this? It is, of course, Mr Putin. I have said many times in this House that Mr Putin’s primary objective when it comes to NATO is to undermine it and to seek to cause circumstances in which there is established a European security architecture, in which he would expect Russia to play the most prominent part, all the while using energy as an inducement to members of the alliance or a threat. Now we see Mr Putin received with acclaim in the capitals of Middle East countries, where American influence is not even second best and where, it has to be said, the influence of the United Kingdom is at a very low ebb. It seems a long time since the expertise in Arab affairs of the Foreign Office was rather humorously described as the camel corps—the camel corps has been in substantial retreat for some time.

Mr Obama left a vacuum when he set down red lines and then chose not to take action when those lines were breached. In that, he was assisted by the indecision of the House of Commons which, when recalled in 2013, failed in the end to pass either the Government’s Motion or the Opposition’s amendment. One could almost say that, like nature, Russia abhors a vacuum.

In Europe, Trump’s capriciousness has caused European members of NATO to consider alternative structures for defence. That is understandable but it should be unwelcome. Assurances are made that this will not be at the expense of support for NATO but complementary. I fear I have doubts that that will be the case. The problem is this: the United Kingdom outside the European Union will have little or no influence over any such alternative structures. Within the European Union, the United Kingdom would have both influence and a veto. The truth of the matter is this: Brexit or no Brexit, deal or no deal, NATO now needs our Government’s attention.

There was a powerful section in the remarkable speech by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, when he detailed the foreign policy inadequacies of the Government’s present engagement on a variety of issues. From that list, I pluck NATO, and the overwhelming need to ensure its integrity.

European Union: Final Withdrawal Agreement

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Thursday 26th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat the Answer to an Urgent Question taken a short while ago in another place.

“We have been very clear, right from the start of this process, that there will be a vote in both Houses of Parliament on the final deal that we agree with the European Union. I will reiterate the commitment that my Minister gave at this Dispatch Box during the Article 50 Bill. He said:

‘I can confirm that the Government will bring forward a motion on the final agreement, to be approved by both Houses of Parliament before it is concluded. We expect and intend that this will happen before the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement’.


Furthermore, he added that,

‘we intend that the vote will cover not only the withdrawal arrangements but also the future relationship with the European Union’.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/2/17; col. 264.]

These remain our commitments.

The terms of that vote were also clear. Again, as my Minister said at the time:

‘The choice will be meaningful: whether to accept that deal or to move ahead without a deal’.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/2/17; col. 275.]


Of course, that vote cannot happen until there is a deal to vote on, but we are working to reach an agreement on the final deal in good time before we leave the European Union in March 2019. Clearly, we cannot say for certain at this stage when that will be agreed, but Michel Barnier has said he hopes to get a draft deal agreed by October 2018 and that is our aim as well.

We fully expect that there will be a vote in the UK Parliament on this agreement before the vote in the European Parliament and before we leave the EU. As we have said, this vote will be over and above the requirements of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act. We have also said many times that we want to move to talking about the future relationship as soon as possible. The EU has been clear that any future partnership cannot legally conclude until the UK becomes a third country, as the Prime Minister herself explained in her Florence speech.

As I set out in the committee yesterday, our aim is to have the terms of our future relationship agreed by the time we leave in March 2019. However, we recognise that the ratification of that agreement will take time and that that could run into the implementation period that we seek. There can be no doubt that Parliament will be fully involved throughout this process”.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement. However, just as it took legislation to start the Article 50 process, so the outcome of two years’ negotiation must also be authorised by legislation, as Dominic Grieve and others have stressed, not by a vote in Parliament being mere motion. In the Commons a few minutes ago the Secretary of State referred to “in the event that we do not do the deal”. Let us be clear: should that happen and our Government walk away, that must also be subject to a vote, because no deal is actually a decision. It is a decision that our future trade will be on WTO terms, that we will be outside the customs union and that there will be no transition period. Will the Minister very gently advise her colleagues that in due course your Lordships’ House is likely to be of the view that legislative authority will be needed, deal or no deal?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I always listen carefully to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. I know she reflects carefully on the views of Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition. I make it clear that commitments given at the Dispatch Box by a member of the Government are binding. Therefore, the commitment to ensure that this House and another place have a meaningful vote, not only on the terms of the withdrawal agreement but on the implementation period agreement and the future relationship, is binding on the Government and will remain so.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness recall that, during the passage of the notification Bill in March, this House approved an amendment that I moved to impose a statutory requirement on the Government to ensure there is a meaningful vote and parliamentary consideration of any withdrawal agreement? This House backed down because of undertakings given by the Government. In the light of the uncertainty caused by the comments of the Secretary of State yesterday, would it not be better for there to be a binding statutory obligation to remove all doubt about this? Is it not right that there is an appropriate parliamentary vehicle for such a binding statutory obligation: the withdrawal Bill currently before Parliament?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I very much remember the contributions of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to our debates on the Article 50 Act. As I just explained, a commitment given by a Minister at the Dispatch Box is and remains binding. The noble Lord refers to legislation that is currently in another place and will proceed here. Clearly it is a matter for discussions in that House to proceed, as they may do in Committee and beyond, but the position is clear: there is no confusion about the meaningful votes being offered. When my right honourable friend the Secretary of State answered questions on hypothetical issues of what happens in negotiations in the European Union, he gave an accurate answer. He made it clear that we expect to have an agreement by October next year, because that is what the European Union wants. It is what all of us need, so that not only we but other members of the European Union can properly consider their views on that agreement.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, we are discovering that the assertion of taking back control of parliamentary sovereignty at Westminster was a myth in the mouth of the Brexiteers, but is it not right that the final say must surely rest with the voters? As the real facts about Brexit emerge, the public should have the right to reflect and think again about whether Brexit suits them. That would truly be respecting the will of the people. A refusal to give the voters a final say would be deeply undemocratic. Will the Government now pledge that they will respect the voters and give the final say to the people?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

We respect entirely that the democratic process means that in a referendum people express their view. More than 1 million more people voted to leave than to remain. We gave the undertaking that we would respect the result of that referendum and, as I gently reminded the noble Baroness the other week, the fact is that the only major party to stand at the last election on the basis of having a second referendum suffered the penalty of almost total loss.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, nobody can doubt the good intentions of my noble friend. She has the respect of all parts of the House, but will she accept that intentions and expectations are not guarantees? We need a legislative guarantee that Parliament will indeed take back control.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, our undertaking is indeed to give a guarantee that Parliament will have a vote on the agreement that is reached; not only on the withdrawal agreement but also, as I have stressed, on any implementation phase and on our future relationship. That is a very broad discussion for Parliament to have and a very definitive decision that they can make.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister clear up something which seems baffling, to me at any rate, from these exchanges, drawing on her experiences as a former Chief Whip? If Parliament, either this House or the other House, wants to have a vote, it is within Parliament’s power to have a vote, whether the Government want it to have one or not. It is very nice to have government reassurances on these matters but as a matter of parliamentary procedure, Governments might love the idea of not having votes, particularly if Governments are not secure in their majority, but the practical truth is that, whatever these exchanges are, if the House of Commons wants to vote on a major issue of constitutional importance, the House of Commons is well within its power and capacity in procedure to be able to do so.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, when I became Opposition Chief Whip I had the pleasure of working with the noble Lord, who was then the Government Chief Whip. He knew his procedure and rules then and he is right now.

[Lord Bridges of Headley (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend please clarify something? In the event of no deal, were Parliament to reject that outcome, what power would Parliament have to force the European Union back to the negotiating table and/or to force the Government to revoke the notice to leave the European Union?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, we are negotiating to stay in a relationship with the European Union while leaving the institution. The European Union is engaged with us in having very constructive and very technical discussions behind the scenes. Both sides are confident that we will reach a successful agreement and therefore hypothecation and hypothesis are beyond my remit today.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness please answer the question that was put to her by her noble friend concerning the outcome of a vote in Parliament not to accept the terms of any deal negotiated by the Government to withdraw from the European Union? It is a very simple question. She may not have the answer, but if she does not have it, will she please say so?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the question has been asked before of Ministers in both Houses, and the answer remains the same. We have committed to give both Houses a meaningful vote on the withdrawal agreement and we have now extended that to cover an implementation period and our future relationship. That is the undertaking: it has been made clear to the public as well that we will honour the decision in the referendum but seek the best agreement we can. That means that as we reach March 2019, we and, I hope, all those in this House will have done our best to reach the right agreement and therefore any discussion about how we then proceed will become irrelevant. The vital thing as we prepare to leave is that if there is no agreement, this Government will have made all due preparation to be able to cope with that. That is what we have been doing, as I have been explaining, over the last two months.

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that her answers are a bit too long and do not allow enough people to get in on these occasions, which are very important? Was she impressed two days ago with the interesting comments of Mayor Bloomberg—a very successful international businessman and ex-mayor of New York—that the decision of the Government to leave the European Union was as stupid as Donald Trump, the President of the United States?

[Lord Dykes]

Will she now ask her colleagues to think again about these matters, as the Government become more and more of a laughing stock, and decide what to do in the real interests of this country?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, Governments always listen to views. I am known for never having called anybody’s views stupid. Even if I disagree with them, I listen and reflect. That is what I have always done and I shall always continue to do so.

Brexit: Devolved Administrations

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the devolved administrations regarding Brexit.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns)]

My Lords, we are clear that the devolved Administrations should be fully engaged in our exit from the European Union. We are in discussions with them—both on our negotiations with the EU and on the domestic implications of exit—bilaterally and through the Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations, which met most recently this month. We will continue to engage the devolved Administrations as we seek a deal that works for the entire United Kingdom.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, since the Irish border is the most intractable of the many problems of Brexit, and since a resolution needs the approval of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, neither of which is attending these joint ministerial meetings, how can any agreement be achieved while they remained suspended?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the noble Lord points to one of the issues of concern to all Members of both Houses. It should be possible as soon as maybe to achieve a resolution to the constitutional position in Northern Ireland. It is for everybody’s benefit that they do so. In the meantime, with regard to engagement with the devolved Administrations, we continue to work closely with the Northern Ireland Civil Service at an official level on all the technical aspects.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Not good enough.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble Lord thinks it is not good enough. As a Government, we stand ready to assist as far as possible in resolving the position in Northern Ireland. Clearly it is not a matter to be taken lightly, and we do not.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not think it extraordinary that the Scottish nationalist Government should prefer our fishing and agriculture policy to be decided in Brussels and not by this United Kingdom Parliament in the interests of the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

Absolutely right, my Lords.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not a principle of good governance that powers once devolved should not be lightly withdrawn? Does the Minister agree that it is not beyond the wit of parliamentary counsel, properly instructed, to draft proposals to maintain the status quo and to provide for the interregnum in the meantime?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble and learned Lord, as ever, makes an important contribution on these matters. We are listening to discussions about the drafting of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill arising out of amendments tabled in another place. It is the intention of this Bill that no decisions currently taken by the devolved Administrations will be removed from them. Each and every part of the noble and learned Lord’s intervention is key to our decision to draft the Bill as it currently stands.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the LSE has produced figures which show that the Scottish economy could lose £30 billion as the result of Brexit? My own city of Aberdeen could lose 7% of its economy over the next five years. Will the Government now acknowledge that leaving the single market and the customs union cannot be a deal for the United Kingdom, but would betray the United Kingdom and put it at risk?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

This Government will never betray the United Kingdom, and we will not betray the fact that, when the referendum was held, over a million more people in the United Kingdom voted to leave than to remain. We will continue to negotiate for a deal that is best for the whole United Kingdom. That is why, in her Florence speech, the Prime Minister set out the importance of making further progress, of having an implementation period and of ensuring that there is certainty as we move to the next phase of being able to make our own decisions in our own way.

[Lord Sugar (CB)]

My Lords, it was the UK which made the decision to leave the EU. The other 27 members were not asking us to leave. They were sitting around minding their own business when we decided to go. We are now trying to negotiate an exit with 27 entities which have no urgency or incentive to provide us with a good deal. Applying commercial logic—

[Lord Sugar]

Yes, it’s coming, if you hold on a second. Be patient.

Will the Minister advise the House what negotiation experience and skills those who are handing this important matter on behalf of the UK have? Please correct me if I am wrong but, from my perspective, it seems that they are politicians and civil servants who have spent their whole lives in politics and, with respect, possibly have no clue about negotiating tactics.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the United Kingdom negotiating team is several hundred strong and has already shown great expertise. I have had the benefit of briefings from lawyers and accountants and all those with expertise both outside and inside Whitehall. I cannot say whether they would meet the standards set by the noble Lord on his television programme but they certainly meet mine.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

As the Minister will know, without changes to the Government’s land grab over what is coming back from Brussels that ought to be going to the devolved Administrations, the Scottish and Welsh Governments have said that they will withhold consent to the Bill. Will the noble Baroness go a little further than she did and give an undertaking that the Government will accept the amendments tabled in the other place to Clauses 10 and 11 so that we respect and retain the devolution settlement?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the way in which the Bill is drafted does precisely that: it protects the current constitutional arrangements. It is important that we achieve agreement on a common framework. There has been real progress at a technical level in the discussions with the devolved Administrations on how we may achieve that. I put on record my great appreciation of all those I have met in non-Brexit negotiations when I was talking about ongoing business with the devolved Administrations in the JMC Europe meetings. I know that that very constructive approach has been maintained through JMC (EN). We are all working together to achieve the best for the whole United Kingdom.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is correct: at this moment in time Northern Ireland has no power-sharing devolved Government. There is an urgency to resolve the current big impasse. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has set a new deadline of 6 November. However, that deadline will pass and there will be no resolution. It is sad for me to have to say that in this House. Negotiations are all about compromise but one political party in Northern Ireland is insisting on a take-it-or-leave-it approach and is saying very clearly that there has to be a stand-alone Irish language Act or there will be nothing. I say to that party in that case there will be nothing. The Government need to look at other methods of properly informing politicians in Northern Ireland about Brexit. I say to them that there is a feeling in Northern Ireland that politicians are not being properly informed.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I simply reflect upon the fact that Members around this House feel passionately about our United Kingdom and ensuring that the Northern Ireland peace agreement, which was achieved at such cost, is maintained for our lifetimes and well beyond.

Brexit: Financial Settlement

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Thursday 12th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they expect to report to Parliament on their negotiations on reaching a financial settlement with the European Union in the Brexit talks.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister provided an update to the House of Commons on Monday following the September negotiations. This covered finances and was repeated in this House. The question of the EU budget can be resolved only as part of the settlement of all the issues that we are working through. We are approaching discussions constructively and are confident we can achieve an outcome in the interests of both sides.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

I take the point, but when does my noble friend expect the valuation of EU assets to be completed? Is it not the case that if proper account is taken of the assets, we could even end up with the EU paying us, rather than the other way round? You first heard the idea here.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

What a very interesting idea my noble friend puts forward—I hope the EU Commission is listening very carefully. However, he makes the serious point. When we issued the Statement back in July, we made it clear that we will honour our obligations, both legal and moral, to the European Union but also that that is reciprocal. There are obligations from the EU to us, including the valuation of assets. It is a technical matter and part of the discussions. I urge the Commission to get on with the work of carrying out that valuation and considering a fair apportionment of the amount.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the wording of the Florence speech may have been seen as helpful here, but I fear that in Brussels and Berlin it was seen as opaque in its real commitments to the budget hole and obligations such as pensions—where I declare an interest—and future relations. If we are hoping that the European Council next week will at least widen a little the mandate of Mr Barnier to prepare for phase 2, would it not be wise to put some figures on those sums?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, this is a technical matter which will decide the future not only of this country but the rest of Europe. One does not go into that kind of negotiation by just opening the doors of the Treasury and offering a certain number of millions or billions of pounds. What we will do is look very carefully at the paper put forward by the Commission during the summer, in which it set out the list of treaties and the clauses of those treaties and regulations that it says form the legal basis of the money that should be paid by this country. We want to be able to face the British people and say: this is our obligation, this is why we agreed to pay it, and we can justify every part of that money.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, will the settlement take into account the failure of the auditors of the Community to certify the accounts for more than 10 years?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble and learned Lord makes a vital point, and I certainly hope that it might.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, I was in Brussels this week and I heard welcome for the Florence speech, but does the Minister accept that this is not just a matter of the figures—that comes in the longer term—but a question of process. Where I and others are worried is that the British Government do not seem to be clear about a willingness to go on sorting out the bills between both parties over a series of years, which will go beyond 2019.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, we have made it clear that we understand that some of the discussions about our future relationship will involve continuing investment in projects across Europe. Clearly, the initial discussions about the withdrawal agreement are focusing on those areas where there are identifiable obligations. It is important that we move on to the next stage about our future relationship because, as the noble Lord has just pointed out, there will be continuing commitments that we may indeed wish to make.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, are we not singularly fortunate in having a Chancellor who is entirely sensible and optimistic, who looks forward to a good deal and who realises that no deal would not be good for this country, and should we not give him every possible support?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

Yes, my Lords, the whole of the Cabinet is in the same frame of mind.

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the huge value of our fishing rights to 80% of our fish stocks will be included in the settlement, either financially or by being repatriated?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, this is clearly a crucial matter for all those involved, not only in the industry at first cast but throughout the supply chain. It is a matter for discussion as we arrange the details not only of the withdrawal agreement but about our future relationship. I assure the noble Earl that the interests of all those involved are being taken deeply into account on that matter.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, the FT today says that the Brexit talks are at a “virtual political standstill”. One official involved says that:

“There was nothing, zero, no progress”.


The British Chambers of Commerce says that further delay in opening trade talks risks a “lose-lose scenario”. How many more dire warnings about what this will do to the economy and jobs do the Government need before they start negotiating seriously?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, it was made clear by Monsieur Barnier and others that the Prime Minister’s speech in Florence added new momentum. That momentum has continued, and that was made clear in the Prime Minister’s report to Parliament on Monday. This week’s negotiations have proceeded at a technical level, and we will hear later statements from the Secretary of State and Monsieur Barnier about that. However, as we move to the stage of wanting to have negotiations about our future partnership, there will be political decisions to be made about that. I and my colleagues have been engaging across Europe in setting out the reasons why we think that it is right, for the economy of all countries of Europe, that we move to that negotiation swiftly.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister at all struck by how united the Brussels team is on behalf the European Union and how divided ours is?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am struck by the way the negotiating teams are carrying forward the interests of their countries as a united front. Whatever the media like to report, the fact is that decisions taken are done so at Cabinet level in unity.

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister please be candid with the House? Can she say whether anything substantial or major has been definitively agreed in phase 1? Can she give some examples and assure a doubting Chamber?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I have given several examples in the past and I am happy to give some of the latest now, but until there is a full agreement there is nothing agreed. To give an example of the agreements so far, we have agreed most aspects of social security co-ordination, which means that we have confirmed that EU and UK citizens will continue to benefit from the co-ordination rules for aggregating contributions made in the EU and the UK, both before and after exit, and the rights that flow from such contributions with regards to an uprated state pension and reciprocal healthcare. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for asking for detail.

Brexit

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dykes]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their current assessment of the prospects for reaching a Brexit agreement with the European Union by March 2019.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, as the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU said when closing the fourth round of negotiations, we have made considerable progress on the issues that matter, increasing certainty for citizens and businesses. Thanks to the constructive and determined manner of both sides in negotiations, we are making decisive steps forward. Both parties want to achieve the best possible outcome and the strongest possible partnership for the future by March 2019.

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

Yes, but when are the Government, at long last, going to produce viable proposals for the Irish border which will also be acceptable to the Irish Government and the Dáil?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, there has been a very firm, fair and collaborative discussion about the issue of Northern Ireland. The most recent discussions continue to be constructive and we have made progress in some areas. For example, we have begun drafting joint principles on preserving the common travel area and associated rights, and have continued building on the general principles of ensuring that there is no hindrance at the border.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister give us her current assessment of the prospect of reaching an agreement on Brexit within the Conservative Party by March 2019?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the Cabinet has made it clear that it is fully in support of the Prime Minister.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

And that is the way it is going to stay.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it would speed up negotiations if the British Government put forward quite specific and quantitative proposals with regard to what we think any exit payment ought to be?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, my noble friend speaks from his background of work in the Treasury. There is a move from the Commission to change the rules of the game. The rules set out at the start of the negotiations were that we should have sufficient progress by this stage. Suddenly, some members and parties are saying that we should have agreed a particular sum. This is more than horse-trading; it is the future of our country. We are having a technical and detailed discussion that will bear fruit.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, going back to Northern Ireland, does the Minister agree that the only way to stop there being any border between Northern Ireland and the Republic is for us to be members of the customs union?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, it is a fact that as we leave the European Union we are not going to cherry pick one or more of the four freedoms—the Commission has made it clear that that is not acceptable and we understand and abide by that. However, we do seek a strong customs partnership. We cannot be in a customs union unless we have all the other freedoms, and, of course, contribute to the budget, without having a say in it: that is not the British way.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister say what effort the Government made before triggering Article 50 to ensure that they would be able to discuss with our partners in the EU the new partnership straightaway? If they did not make any such efforts, was not that a little foolhardy?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, when we triggered Article 50 it was at a time when we had already heard extensive analysis of a range of issues that we knew would be the subject of discussion in reaching an agreement on our withdrawal from the European Union. That includes, as I have mentioned at the Dispatch Box in the past, an analysis of more than 50 sectors of the economy. An extraordinary amount of detailed work has been carried out, which is why we have been able to publish a raft of papers this summer.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister allowed herself to think again about holding an early general election. Why will she therefore not allow people to think again about the advisability of Brexit once they know the facts?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I remind the noble Baroness, who is also a friend, that her party, which stood for that in the last election, got hammered.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that we all have cause to be grateful for the calm, prudent, constructive contribution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in these talks?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

Yes, my Lords. I have seen that close up because I was fortunate enough to be briefed throughout the summer by officials from the Treasury about the patient, technical work that they have been carrying out to ensure that when we are able to reach agreement not only on principles but on practice, the result will be fair for this country as well as for the rest of the European Union.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, as we know, the European Parliament will get a vote on the final deal. It has passed a resolution saying that it does not consider that sufficient progress has been made to go on to the all-important trade negotiations. The Bank of England, agriculture, industry, higher education and UK citizens all want progress. Is it not time to put the national interest first and make real progress on these talks so that we can get on to the deep trade ones?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, we have made great progress—we would say sufficient progress—to be able to proceed with the next stage of our negotiations. Of course, as the noble Baroness will certainly recall, Article 50 specifically says that discussions on the withdrawal agreement should be against a background of discussions about the future partnership. We are ready, willing and able, and it is time now for the European Commission to be more flexible to be ready for the next stage.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, to return to the question of the two parts of Ireland, does my noble friend recall that Monsieur Barnier, after publication of Her Majesty’s Government’s proposals, said that the European Union was opposed to an invisible border? Surely there will be no progress on this issue until Europe changes its mind.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, my noble friend, who has some of the best experience of the issues of importance to Northern Ireland, raises a crucial point. Flexibility is important from the Commission and also from other members of the European 27. A political decision will ultimately make the difference. It is worth noting that the Motion in the European Parliament to which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred a moment ago proposed that one part of the United Kingdom—Northern Ireland—could remain in the single market and the customs union, thereby breaking up the United Kingdom. That cannot be a way forward.

Brexit: Negotiations

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Wednesday 13th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish a comprehensive timetable for Brexit negotiations with the European Union; and whether they will make publicly available all position papers and all other documentation and correspondence relevant to those negotiations.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK and EU teams have agreed a broad timetable for the Brexit negotiations, which has been published on the GOV.UK site. This provides indicative dates for negotiation rounds and acts as a framework rather than a hard timetable to progress discussions as effectively as possible. All published information about the negotiations is being made available on the DExEU website, at www.gov.uk.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

I am really grateful to the noble Baroness for her helpful answer. She will agree with me that it is the European Union Select Committee of this House that does the detailed work on this issue, but does she share my disappointment that the Secretary of State is not going to give regular reports to that Select Committee on the progress of the negotiations? Is it not a double disappointment that he also refuses—as he said to me again yesterday— to allow the noble Baroness to stand in on his behalf to give reports on the negotiations? Will she ask him to think again on this? As far as we are concerned in this House, we have faith in the noble Baroness doing that job properly.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, both the Secretary of State and I have made clear our commitment to the value of parliamentary scrutiny. Last night, in the excellent debate that we had in this House, I was able to put on record our commitment and to make it clear that there is, perhaps, a little bit of misinformation and misunderstanding about the way in which Ministers have been appearing before Select Committees. What has happened is that, when Ministers—whether it is the Secretary of State, me or another—appear in front of a Select Committee, the officials supporting us are the negotiators. Therefore, it was important that not only are we responsible to Parliament but we ensure that the negotiations can proceed. It is that balance that we have sought to maintain, which is why the Secretary of State has made it clear that, having appeared once just recently in July, he will be appearing again fairly shortly before the Select Committee of this House and before the Brexit committee in another House. There have also been 14 other ministerial appearances—all to make sure that we keep our position and that parliamentary support is properly carried out.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm what she implied, I think, at the end of her speech last night, that there would be a valuation of all our assets held by the European Union as part of the calculation of what is owed in net terms?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I was alluding to the fact that there are indeed obligations from the EU as well as obligations from the UK to the EU. As part of that process it will be important to have a valuation of assets.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, in the debate last night, one of the most interesting contributions was from the noble Baroness’s predecessor as Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Bridges of Headley. He said:

“We must be honest about the task we face—its complexity and scale. We must be honest about the need to compromise and about the lack of time that we … have to come to an agreement on our withdrawal”.—[Official Report, 12/9/17; col. 2431.]


Are the Government going to take his advice?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, we listened to his advice when he was a Minister; we still listen to it now.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, on 4 July, the noble Lord, Lord Bates, in reply to a Question from me confirmed that 10.9% of the UK’s overseas development assistance is spent through the two main funds of the European Union, and that that totals £1,327 million. He also gave an assurance to your Lordships’ House that the transition period would be handled in such a way as to ensure that all the many projects protected by these funds, many of which save lives around the globe, would not fall off a cliff. There is no mention of either these funds or that commitment in the position paper launched yesterday by Her Majesty’s Government. Can the Minister give us that assurance here again today?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, there are, of course, several streams through which funds available for international development are derived. Although the Department for International Development holds the ring in that regard, clearly this goes through many different portals. The noble Lord is right to point to the importance of the work being done on international development through the EU. We have given our commitment and made it clear that we are not going to devalue that. I am afraid it is, as ever, a matter for negotiations how we are able to fulfil that commitment, not only while we continue to be a member of the European Union but as we leave.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister believe it would be a good idea for the Select Committee to invite the Commission to brief it so that at least it can find out what is going on in the negotiations?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the person in charge of the negotiations at the Commission, Michel Barnier, has, I think, spoken twice to the European Parliament. He does have confidential meetings with a self-selecting group. This House has been much better served for information than has the European Parliament by a country mile.

[Lord Dykes (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister at least give a preliminary indication of how the Government will solve the Irish border problem?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, last night I was able to answer a significant question from the noble Lord, Lord Jay, about what happens next. I set out a couple of points where there are technical issues to be resolved but also pointed out that after the last round of negotiations we were able to provide a whole area where there is convergence. However, when I asked where there was no convergence between the position of the EU and the UK, the answer was none—we are converging.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the position papers so far published have not clarified the Government’s position with regard to the Interreg funds, which are of considerable benefit to the western part of Wales as well as to the Irish Republic. Is it the Government’s intention to publish something? Can the Minister give any indication of thinking on this?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of funding for these matters. We are keenly aware of the importance of the position of the economies of all parts of the United Kingdom, and that is being taken into account. Further papers are coming forward. I am not in a position to say which ones at this stage as they are published in relation to the negotiations as they proceed. However, I certainly take the noble Lord’s point seriously.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the Leave Alliance is briefing that the Prime Minister is going to use her speech on Europe next week to announce that she is giving formal notice to leave the European Economic Area, and, in an attempt to bypass the Commission, extend an invitation to all EEA member states—the European Union ones and Lichtenstein, Norway and Switzerland—to enter into direct talks with the UK to create some sort of new EEA agreement? Surely this bonkers idea cannot possibly be true?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am intrigued to hear that the noble Lord has leave publications. It is a side to him that I never knew before, and no I have not seen it.

UK and EU Relations

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

That this House takes note of the position papers and future partnership papers published by Her Majesty’s Government on the United Kingdom’s future relationship with the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, the Motion standing in my name asks the House to take note of the papers published by Her Majesty’s Government during the summer on the UK’s position in the negotiating rounds and our future relationship with the European Union. These papers were developed to support the UK’s negotiating position and delivered transparency to Parliament and the public as we enter into our discussions with the EU. Over the summer, we published seven position papers unpacking a range of withdrawal issues, and six future partnership papers that set out the Government’s vision for the future partnership with the EU. It is on these 13 papers that I will focus my attention and that of the House today. However, note that these papers are in addition to five technical notes on key negotiation issues and two White Papers.

These papers reflect the Government’s constructive engagement with external parties and the extensive work undertaken across government since the referendum just over a year ago. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and I outlined last week in the Statement, it is fair to say that we have seen concrete progress. I use this opportunity to outline how the approach set out in each position paper published to date helped secure that progress. My focus today, and my hope and expectation, is for this to be the beginning of an opportunity for Peers to feed back their views to the Government on the papers, and this being a continuing conversation—one in which I listen rather than speak. I know I will speak today but I would like to listen more.

First, on the paper on safeguarding the position of EU citizens in the UK and of UK nationals in the EU, our June policy paper set out our position on EU citizens’ rights in some detail. It is already clear that there is much common ground between the UK and EU positions and we are confident that we can reach agreement on this important issue early in negotiations. Indeed, we have achieved a great deal so far. As the joint technical paper we first published in July demonstrates, there is significant common ground between the EU’s and the UK’s respective positions, including on matters relating to immigration and residence, social security, healthcare and the mutual recognition of qualifications. I hope that those seeking more information on this issue will review these technical notes, which provide a detailed analysis of the work carried out so far. Looking ahead, we made concrete progress in preparing the ground for the September negotiations, where we expect to move closer to a reciprocal deal. However, as I set out last week, in a number of areas the UK’s position goes further than that of the EU as we seek to provide swift reassurance to the 4 million EU and UK citizens concerned.

Turning to privileges and immunities, we set out our position in July on the framework of privileges and immunities that allows for the smooth conduct of relations between the EU and the UK. Following the August round, I am pleased to say that we are close to agreement on our approach to post-exit privileges and immunities.

Also in July, we set out the key principles for our future co-operation on nuclear materials and safeguards. This includes ensuring a smooth transition to a UK nuclear safeguards regime, collaboration on research and development, minimising barriers to civil nuclear trade and providing clarity and certainty. As part of our orderly withdrawal, and to provide certainty to industry and reassurance to all, the UK welcomes early discussion on issues relating to nuclear safeguards arrangements and nuclear materials in the UK. I appreciate that there was much interest in this House and debate on that matter just before we rose in July. In the August round of negotiations, we reiterated a strong mutual interest in ensuring that the UK and Euratom community continue to work closely together in the future as part of a comprehensive new partnership.

July also saw the publication of our position paper, Ongoing Union Judicial and Administrative Proceedings, which sets out how the UK will seek to ensure a smooth and orderly transition to a position where the CJEU no longer has jurisdiction in this country. In the August round, the UK and the EU discussed and made progress on the cut-off points for cases being defined as pending. There was also progress in discussions concerning the UK’s role before the court whilst these pending cases are being heard.

At the time of withdrawal, administrative procedures will also be undertaken under EU regulations which concern businesses and individuals in the UK, and reaching agreement on the best approach for these is part of securing a smooth and orderly withdrawal from the EU.  

I know that the position paper we published in August on Northern Ireland and Ireland was a matter of much interest in this House. Our paper outlines the UK’s position on how to address the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland and Ireland. As the Prime Minister made clear in her Article 50 letter, preserving the unique relationship between the UK and Ireland and protecting the peace process in Northern Ireland is an absolute priority for the United Kingdom. The paper directly addresses separation issues to inform the current negotiations, but it also proposes high-level principles and criteria which are inextricably linked to the future relationship between the UK and the EU, and highlights the importance of moving to discussions on the future relationship as quickly as possible. In August, the negotiation co-ordinators had detailed discussions on the basis of this paper. We believe there is a high degree of convergence on key issues, and we agreed to work up shared principles on the common travel area. We also carried out further technical work on cross-border co-operation under the Belfast, otherwise known as the Good Friday, agreement.

We are also seeking a strong regime to protect the confidentiality of information and access to official documents produced or exchanged while the UK was a member state. Our position paper on this was published on 21 August. It shows that we are getting on with negotiations by directly responding to the EU’s paper, Issues relating to the Functioning of the Union Institutions, Agencies and Bodies. In the August round, we agreed general principles on a mutual approach to professional confidentiality and access to official documents exchanged or obtained prior to exit.

I appreciate that there has been not only interest in but reports by this House on continuity in the availability of goods for the EU and the UK. Our position paper was published in August. Moving to continuity in the availability of goods for the EU and the UK is vital. Ultimately, we want a deep and special partnership which allows the freest and most frictionless possible trade in goods. Our paper on this subject builds on a range of precedents for removing barriers to trade, together with the options set out for customs. In the negotiations we emphasised that the principles outlined in this paper seek to minimise uncertainty and disruption for business and consumers in the UK and the EU. However, our intention is that many of these issues will become irrelevant as we quickly move on to secure agreement about a deep and special partnership that includes free and frictionless trade in goods. For this reason, the UK sees this negotiation on the status of goods on the market before and after our withdrawal as an opportunity to provide certainty, but also recognise our common regulatory systems and ambition for co-operation in the future.

Looking to the future, we have, alongside negotiations, also published a number of papers over the summer which set out our thinking on our future partnership with the EU. These papers are different from our position papers, which relate specifically to negotiations on the withdrawal agreement itself. They offer pragmatic and innovative solutions to issues related to our withdrawal, as well as the future deep and special partnership we want with the European Union. From the start, we have argued that talks around our withdrawal cannot in practice be treated in isolation from the future partnership we wish to achieve.

The future partnership papers do not aim to dictate a single approach but rather to set out considered options for us to work on in partnership with the EU. One such paper was published on 15 August with regard to future customs arrangements, setting out our objectives and our proposals to achieve them. In assessing the options for the UK’s future outside the EU customs union, the Government will be guided by what delivers the greatest economic advantage to the UK and by three strategic objectives: ensuring that UK-EU trade is as frictionless as possible; avoiding a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland; and establishing an independent international trade policy.

Over the last year, the Government have conducted detailed and extensive work on all the options for a future customs relationship with the EU. Our paper sets out the two approaches that most commonly meet our objectives. Under either option, it will take time for the UK and our European neighbours to put the new system in place, and for businesses to adapt to new arrangements. The Government therefore wish to explore with the EU a model for an interim implementation period. The Commission published its own paper on customs last week, but that paper is focused narrowly on separation issues that would apply in a context where no agreement at all had been reached. We are more positive and forward-looking in the way we are approaching the matter. It is imperative that both sides consider our future arrangements together to ensure that there is as little disruption as possible to UK and European businesses, service providers and consumers.

The paper that we published on civil judicial co-operation in late August makes it clear that it is in the interests of the UK and the EU that there continues to be an effective framework for resolving cross-border legal disputes after we leave. This is to provide confidence and certainty, and minimise delay and expense for families, businesses and individuals, ensuring they can continue to settle cross-border disputes efficiently and effectively in the future. For businesses engaged in international trade, it is crucial to have confidence in, and respect for, choices made about which country’s courts will hear a case in the event of a dispute, and which country’s law will apply to resolve that dispute.

Our paper on enforcement and dispute resolution, published at the end of August, reinforces the Government’s message that after our withdrawal we will take back control of our laws and bring an end to the direct jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union in the United Kingdom. This paper states that it is in the interests of both parties that the rights and obligations agreed upon between us can be relied upon and enforced by individuals and businesses, and that where disputes arise between the UK and the EU on the application or interpretation of these obligations we can resolve them efficiently and effectively. We are clear that we do not consider that the Court of Justice of the EU should have direct jurisdiction for any of the UK-EU agreements that comprise the deep and special partnership. This is entirely in line with the many precedents which demonstrate that it is normal for the EU to reach agreements with third countries that provide for a close co-operative relationship, without the CJEU having direct jurisdiction over those third countries.

I turn to a matter of current issue, and certainly of great interest, under the presidency of the Council by Estonia: data protection. Our paper outlines the United Kingdom’s position on ensuring the continued protection and exchange of personal data between the UK and the EU. The UK recognises the need for, and indeed is one of the leading drivers of, high data protection standards across the globe. In an ever more connected world, we cannot expect data flows to remain confined within national borders. Individuals should have confidence that their personal data are being appropriately protected. After leaving the EU, the UK will continue to play a leading global role in the development and promotion of appropriate data protection standards and cross-border data flows. It is essential that we agree a UK-EU relationship on data that maintains the free flow of personal data between the UK and the EU and offers sufficient stability and confidence for businesses, public authorities and individuals.

More recently—last week—our paper on science and innovation explored how the UK can continue to collaborate with European partners on major science, research and technology initiatives. The UK has a long history of collaborating with European partners on ground-breaking research, from the development of a new clinical trials approach for the Ebola vaccine to cleaner energy and space exploration. This Government want the UK to maintain its world-leading position on science and innovation. We have four of the world’s top 10 universities, a world-class intellectual property regime and more Nobel laureates than any country apart from the US. As part of the new, deep and special relationship, the UK will seek an ambitious science and innovation agreement with the EU that ensures that the valuable research links between us can continue to grow.

Today our most recent paper was published, which sets out our vision for future UK-EU co-operation on foreign policy, defence, security and development. In doing so, it reinforces the Prime Minister’s message that the UK will continue to play a leading role as a global foreign policy and security actor. With challenges to our common security becoming more serious, our response cannot be to co-operate with one another less, but to work together more. This approach reflects our shared history, the practical benefits of our co-operation and the UK’s ongoing genuine commitment to the promotion of European interests and values across the world. The UK will also continue to use its partnerships and substantial international development budget to increase the impact of global development or to tackle country-specific problems. Noble Lords should have no doubt as to the commitment of this country to the security of Europe as a whole. The closing paragraph of today’s report makes clear our unconditional support for that.

Our future partnership papers describe a vision that will inform the current negotiations on separation issues where they relate to questions that can be settled only in light of the future partnership. Indeed, the early rounds of the negotiations have already demonstrated that many withdrawal questions and future partnership issues are inextricably linked. As the negotiations proceed in the autumn, the case for a more detailed discussion on that future partnership grows in importance. The position papers and those on the future partnership, taken together, provide the essential path towards building a new relationship to promote our shared interests and values—a relationship that will enable the continued success of all the peoples of the UK and the European Union, our closest neighbours and friends. I beg to move.

UK and EU Relations

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. We have certainly heard, I will not say a full range of views, but pretty much everything that has been said in the past year has been said in a different way today—and with verve, because this House deeply cares about these matters. So do I, and so do the Government. That is why I said at the beginning that I wanted this to be part of the parliamentary engagement that builds up so that we have feedback.

I was discussing that this morning with the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition, as she was kind enough to mention in her opening speech. I felt that it was not just a case of having debate after debate—although we will have them. Other Members throughout the House can promise that we will, because they will put down those matters for debate. I said that I really did want to hear from Peers. That can be done in several different ways, not just in the more structured ways such as debates, Questions for Short Debate or Statements, but I want to find a way that will enable all noble Lords to feel that they have had the opportunity to participate—and I hope that the sturdy nearly 50 who have done so today will continue to stay with it throughout. In fact, I think that they will promise that they will. Thank goodness, because that is what we intend to do with the negotiations.

That is the whole point about this process: it is a negotiation. The frustration that I can feel in the House about the fact that we cannot be more open about the detail is a frustration that we too feel. We would like to be more open too, but the very nature of negotiations, and the confidentiality, works for the participants on both sides—both for the European Commission and for us.

Whatever has been painted in the press about hostility, and whatever comments have been made about people’s character, there has been a really good relationship between the negotiators on both sides. I was grateful for the earlier reference to the fact that Michel Barnier has paid tribute to the professionalism of the UK negotiators, and I pay tribute to the professionalism of the EU negotiators. We are very fortunate in how they do their work, often against a background of sniping from the press. I shall not comment on other criticism, but there certainly has been sniping from the press, and it continues.

I must say how pleased I was to hear from my noble friend Lord Bridges today. I was much happier to hear from him when he was sitting beside me, but if I cannot have that, having him sitting behind me will just have to do for the moment. I wish him continued success in his new life—I shall not say “next life”, because that sounds as if I am expecting him to pop off.

Critically, this is a serious matter of parliamentary involvement. May I pick one specific item up immediately? The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said that she thought there had been a change in our view of our commitment to a meaningful vote. That has not changed. “Expect and intend” has always been the position that we have taken, and the reason for that is a practical one. I asked, when I went to the department, why those words were used. I am afraid the reason is straightforward, if one thinks about it. We do not dictate the date on which the European Parliament holds its vote. If it suddenly decided to do that while this House was in recess, we would have to seek the advice of the House. We do not recall Parliament in such circumstances. So clearly, we expect and intend. We are talking about next autumn, and we do not know when the European Parliament will have its vote. We want to have our vote before it does. That is exactly what we set out, and I do not think I can be clearer than that. “Expect and intend” means that we are maintaining our commitment to Parliament.

Our commitment to Parliament is certainly to assist with scrutiny wherever we possibly can. I was worried that the noble Lord, Lord Newby—I nearly said “my noble friend” again; I am getting back into bad habits, or good ones, perhaps—somehow thought that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State had given a commitment to the Select Committee to appear after every round. He did not. He gave a commitment to work out the balance of the way in which that reporting could take place. We have a very strong sense of our responsibility, which he has stated repeatedly in his letters to chairs of committees, and we want to carry it out. However, there are committees in both Houses, and he has just accepted the invitation to appear before the newly formed Brexit committee in the Commons. We will continue to service committees as best we can. The way in which my department is set up to deliver the negotiations means that the officials who support Ministers who appear in front of committees are also the negotiators. Therefore, when they are doing their absolutely valuable work here to support parliamentary scrutiny, it necessarily has an impact on negotiations. So it is balancing that while making sure that we do not let Parliament down, because that is not the way forward.

Nor shall we let down the devolved Administrations, and we do not intend to do so. There has been engagement throughout. There can always be more—of course, there can. It is not a case, of course, that the devolved Administrations are part of the negotiations, because they do not have that competence in the constitutional sense, but we have engagement and that will continue. As I mentioned last week in this House, very shortly there will be another meeting of the specialised JMC that it just invites the devolved Administrations to talk about the European negotiations. There is the other committee, which I have the honour to chair, that looks at European issues more broadly.

Throughout all of this, I understand some of the frustrations of noble Lords. I will continue to look for ways of finding where we can give more information in a more timely way. By the way, the publication date is the date on the papers. They are published to assist with the negotiations. It is not done just to make life difficult for this House when it is about to have a debate. It is because it has been timed to coincide with some of the negotiations that are going ahead.

Throughout there has been a determination from both the UK and the Commission that we should come to an agreement that is good for both of us. There is not hostility on that, and there is certainly not foot-dragging.

I was asked specifically whether the negotiating dates had been changed. Indeed, they have, but it is a joint agreement between the UK and the European Commission to start the fourth round on 25 September. The reason why is to give time for the negotiators to have more flexibility to make progress in the September round, which was highlighted in the August round. On some of the issues discussed there, we are close to reaching legal text status. I hope at some stage to be able to set that out, but clearly that would be an advance. It may not be on some of the high profile issues, but it is certainly on issues that are core to all the discussions we have had. It is right that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has called for some flexibility in making sure that, if we need to have more dates to continue negotiating, we should find a way of doing that. We stand ready to work with the Commission to find more dates to do so.

Looking at some of the issues that were raised, clearly Northern Ireland was very much first on the list for so many people. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, rightly asked, “What next?”. If I can assist him in some small part—I wish I could tell him that everything has been resolved, but it is a case of getting it right throughout—what I can say is that there is a high degree of convergence on the key issues of the common travel area and safeguarding the Good Friday agreement, and we are working on how the text should look.

What has been agreed on the Good Friday/Belfast agreement is that we will carry out further joint technical work. The noble Lord will realise the implications of that, and it means that we will take steps forward. There was agreement on both sides on the benefit of further technical discussion on the GFA—protecting citizenship rights enshrined in the GFA and the permanent birth right of the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as British, Irish, or both. We both agree that that should continue. So, again, these are technical steps. When I asked where we were not converging, the answer was none. We are converging on all the major issues, so that is the, “What next?”.

There were three particularly important speeches today—those of the noble Lords, Lord Hutton and Lord Teverson, and my noble friend Lady Bloomfield—in that they addressed the issues of Euratom in a very practical way. The question was put again: why are we leaving Euratom when clearly we all agree that its work is essential and we need to be part of it? Again, I repeat what my noble friend Lord Bridges and I have said. We are leaving because Euratom and the EU share a common institutional framework, including the European Court of Justice, a role for the Commission and decision-making in the Council, which makes them uniquely legally joined. Because of that, when we leave the EU, we have to leave Euratom at the same time. We have said that we want to look very carefully at how we form an agreement to still be able to carry out the responsibilities we have heretofore.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised the issue of associate membership. We are looking at what we want to achieve rather than the mechanism; that will be important. What it will be called I cannot say, but certainly there are alternatives available, including bilateral agreements. The noble Lord raised some extremely interesting and very helpful points.

My noble friend Lord Ridley exposed some of the misinformation in the press about what leaving Euratom really means. It will not mean that the UK loses access to radioactive isotopes for medical use. I refer to that because I thought his speech was exemplary in giving detail on those matters.

Euratom is one of the separation issues being discussed. They are confidentiality, access to information, privileges, immunities, pending cases before the ECJ and, indeed, Euratom. In some of those areas we are now ready to move towards legal text.

[Lord Hutton of Furness]

I am exceptionally grateful to the Minister for giving way. Before she moves on, will she confirm that the UK will not leave the Euratom treaty until and unless those replacement bilateral nuclear co-operation agreements have been negotiated and are in place?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the fact is that as we leave the European Union, we will leave Euratom. What I can say to the noble Lord and to the House is that a lot of work has been done, not only with respect to Euratom but with other international obligations, to scope out exactly what all our international agreements mean, whether any need to be replaced and, if they do, how they would be replaced and how that would be affected by our leaving the European Union. So although I cannot say specifically that the two would be contiguous, because we will leave Euratom on the date we leave the European Union, we are in the position whereby we cannot negotiate new agreements until we have left the European Union. However, we can carry out technical exploration of such agreements. Therefore it is important to know what kind of agreements we need to reach. Above all, we are making sure that we do not in any way compromise our current position as members of the European Union. We gave that undertaking and we will keep to it.

I was asked about the transitional implementation period. My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe looked very closely at that with great interest, because it is all about making sure that we enable those who are in business, as well as everybody else, to know that they do not have to go through the same process more than once. If we are leaving the European Union, they will not have to keep changing their processes in business. We have certainly heard from business about what an implementation period needs to look like. Different businesses think of different periods. We have said very firmly and clearly that an implementation period is something that we will need to negotiate with the European Union but that we do not see it going beyond the date of the next election. Of course, we are not in a position to be able to discuss the terms of an implementation period until we have reached the next stage, which is to look at what our future relationship with the European Union will be. Clearly, if anyone wishes to stay in both the single market and the customs union, it means that they have to accept the four freedoms. The Commission and the EU 27 made it very clear early on that those freedoms were not divisible.

There was a lot of strong feeling about the customs paper not being clear enough. By the way, I reminded myself the other day that blue-skies thinking was the way in which Apple started its rather special business; it is a way of testing out new ideas that can really take off and work. The real reason we put in alternatives is because that is what you do in a negotiation—test out alternatives.

I turn to money. I was challenged on many occasions to say that we should simply tell the European Union how we were going to work out what we owed. It is a two-way street: the European Union also has obligations to the UK. We recognise that we have obligations with both an international legal basis and a moral one. I am sure that noble Lords will have read the paper put out by the European Union. It is three and a half sheets of paper, two of which simply describe the fact that the UK owes something. It says that the debts ought to be shared out among all the people who need to take a share, without actually quantifying or saying how they were going to calculate that, or giving an idea of how they value certain premises—the wherewithal of the European Union. What is the value of the obligation that is owed? What it did do, which is helpful, is to carefully list, on one and a half pages, a whole load of reference to treaties and regulations saying, “This is the legal basis for us demanding money”. Not how much money or how it should be divided up, but why it wants some money.

I recognise how vital this is to the other EU 27. They face losing the third largest net contributor to the European Union. They have been given a bald choice: either they get less in the way of infrastructure funds, or they pay more. Neither is a particularly attractive option for them—and they have been told that, if they can find a third way to solve the problem, they should let the Commission know. This is a problem—these are our friends, and we want Europe to continue to succeed, so I understand the difficulty. However, our duty to the British people is to challenge the European Commission and say: “You say that that particular section of a treaty confers on the UK an obligation to pay. Let us first of all test that legal basis”. That was what was happening about two weeks ago. We were challenging the legal basis, not in a hostile way, but as lawyers do, by simply saying: “How does this work”? That is at the core of why there has been so much anxiety in Brussels. It is because we have different ways of doing things, not because we do not want to reach agreement. The UK way of doing things is to analyse, challenge, then agree. I promise this House that that is what we will do.

We have had two speeches from noble Lords who nearly always make me want to think and think again, as they did tonight. The first was my noble friend Lord Bridges, who said that we have to think what kind of society we want to build in this country as we leave the European Union. My noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford carefully set out how it is important to have an eye to the future and said that we need to challenge what that future is like. How do we look at the reform of institutions across Europe, which we have helped to build but which need to be resilient for the future? Whether it is Europe, the UK or this House, all of us want to be resilient for the future.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Before my noble friend sits down, could she answer the question put to her by my noble friend Lord Caithness and myself? Is it right that we offered the Commission the option of a rolling programme of negotiations and that this was turned down by the EU?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I put the position very early on, in my winding-up speech, I hope, when I explained that the Prime Minister had made it clear that we were prepared now to ramp up the speed and increase the number of days for negotiation. That has not yet happened, but clearly what has happened is constructive and we now have time before 25 September for some of the technical agreements—which are right on the cusp of being made—to be sealed. That is to be welcomed. There is good will on both sides in this negotiation.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords—

Brexit: Impact on Young People

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Monday 11th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, it is still too early to say what rules will be in place for British citizens travelling in the EU after we leave, including for young people. We are carefully considering our options and the potential impact they may have on different categories of people. We will discuss these arrangements with the EU in due course. At every step of the negotiations we will work to ensure the best possible outcome for the British people.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, immediate concern in Parliament has rightly been for EU nationals in the UK and Britons currently abroad, but what thought has been given to how the loss of rights to travel, work and study abroad at will would affect Britons resident here, rights that most young European citizens will continue to enjoy, allowing them a significant advantage in chasing up opportunities? What consideration have the Government given to ensuring that young people here are maintained on the same level playing field as their European counterparts, including continuing participation in Erasmus?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the noble Earl raises a vital question, because the value of international exchange and collaboration in education and training is a vital part of our vision for the UK as a global nation. It is about the future of our young people. Erasmus, which celebrates its 30th anniversary this year, is an example of the European programmes in which we might well want to participate. We will consider that as part of the negotiation. There are other schemes, too, in respect of which we need to look carefully at how we might participate after we leave the European Union.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that we are unlikely to make much progress on these matters until we get some resolution on debt? In that context, will she tell this House the extent to which the problem is about legality and the extent to which it is about quantum? If it is about legality, have we given serious consideration to arbitration? If it is about quantum, have we given serious consideration to mediation?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, regarding debt, I assume that my noble friend is not harking back to the previous Question but looking forward to the negotiations on the liabilities the EU owes to this country—and we recognise there will be duties that we owe to the EU, whether they be based in law or indeed morally. A lot of thought has been given to this issue and I have answered questions on it recently. About 10 days ago, the UK negotiators gave a three-and-a-half hour presentation to the EU negotiators, examining each and every part of the directives and treaties the EU put forward as a list of references, without explaining their application to the UK’s liability. So we are deeply involved in examining wherein lay the duties, each way, to each other.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the European Social Fund gives adults opportunities to learn—often, people who are less likely to go into further or higher education or benefit from the Erasmus scheme. Does the Minister agree that the Government’s proposed shared prosperity fund should be used to replace money such as the European Social Fund to ensure that such opportunities for learning will continue?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble Baroness makes an important and interesting point, and I shall certainly take it back. We need to look over the whole range of activity which encompasses youth training and learning. As the noble Baroness was speaking, I was reminded of the youth mobility scheme, which allows young people aged 18 to 30 from participating countries and territories to learn how to live and work in other societies.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Earl is far too young, and the noble Baroness the Minister is certainly too young, to remember that before we joined the European Union, young UK citizens travelled, studied and worked with great freedom across Europe west of the Iron Curtain. Can she confirm that you do not have to be a member of the EU to participate in the Erasmus programme? Does she agree that the graduates of our excellent universities will continue to be very much welcomed by employers in Europe? Is there any reason to suppose that young people will not in future have the same wonderful opportunities in Europe as they have had in the past?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. Also, the youth mobility scheme and Horizon 2020 are open to countries that are not members of the EU; it depends on the negotiations between the EU and that third country. The most important thing is that all of us are looking to ensure that the future of our young people can be as rich an experience as it has been in the past.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, notwithstanding what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has just said, does my noble friend agree that it would be extremely sad, to put it mildly, if young people from all the countries of Europe found it more difficult to travel and work around the continent than those who came over in the Middle Ages to help build Lincoln and the other great cathedrals? If that stage were reached, we would have not a hard Brexit or a soft Brexit but a barren Brexit. That would be the worst of all.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I taught history several lifetimes ago, and I know that we were not always the most welcoming of countries. I hope we have learned that it is better to welcome than to prevent people coming from countries for the wrong reasons. Clearly, it is important to have a legal basis to control immigration, but it is important to recognise that we have a way of welcoming people that enriches our society. Certainly, as we have announced already, for those who wish to take up Erasmus, applications will continue as normal in 2017-18, and:

“The Government will underwrite the payment of such awards, even when specific projects continue beyond the UK’s departure from the EU.”


That shows a welcoming spirit.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister apologise to young people for the fact that, when she was Chief Whip, she got her Government to refuse our amendment allowing 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in the referendum? It matters: those are the young people whose futures we are discussing. Furthermore, can she tell us why none of the seven position papers the Government have produced so far make any mention of young people? Will there be something in the Government’s thinking about them?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

When we talk about young people in this House, it can be something of an elastic term. But in all seriousness, young people, however we define them, have as much right as those of all ages to believe there is a global future for them beyond the European Union, and we are taking that very seriously. The noble Baroness goes back into history on the referendum Act. We discussed that amendment on not one but several occasions, and it would be wrong for me to encapsulate it in just a brief time at Questions.

Brexit: Negotiations

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Thursday 7th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they will next report to Parliament on the progress of negotiations with the European Union with regard to Brexit.

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, on Tuesday, the Government made a Statement to the House of Commons on progress made in both the July and August negotiation rounds, which I repeated in this Chamber. The Secretary of State made a clear commitment to give an update to the House of Commons after each round of negotiations. With the leave of this House, it will also be repeated here.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm that when we leave the European Union on 19 March 2019, the jurisdiction of all the bodies throughout Europe that have governing powers will cease, that that is the essence of Brexit, and that the rest of the issues are consequential and could be settled in their own time?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My noble friend has raised questions which I am sure will occupy this House with great interest and elicit investigation over the period until we do leave the European Union. He raises a crucial point that in leaving the European Union, we take back control of our own laws, and this is about how we do that and the pace at which we do it. We have made it clear that, for example, the direct jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union will end as we leave the European Union. But another place is currently discussing the withdrawal Bill, which makes it clear that there would still be some role for the CJEU, for example in pending cases. It is a complex matter and my noble friend is right to raise it.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, given the timescales, there will be important negotiations during recesses. Our EU Committee asked the Secretary of State to report back during the Summer Recess, and was clear that if he was unable to attend on the particular date it offered, it would be happy to hear from another Minister, the Permanent Secretary or the Permanent Representative. The invitation was declined—not just for that date but until October. Yet the Secretary of State found time to be part of the entertainment at the Edinburgh Festival, as a guest of Alex Salmond. This is a question of priorities, and that shows more respect for the comedy fringe than it does for Parliament. Is it right that Ministers can ignore Parliament in this way throughout any recess, particularly when it is the Government who choose the recess dates?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the Government have not ignored Parliament. We made clear at the beginning of the process, when the British public decided they wanted to leave the European Union, that there would be regular reporting to Parliament. Indeed, what we do is far beyond what is available to the European Parliament, in effect, because we make available Statements, debates and Questions in which all parliamentarians may participate. In addition, in just the 15 months since my own department was founded, the Secretary of State appeared before the EU Committee on 11 July and, as the noble Baroness said, of course he plans to attend very shortly. He has also provided evidence to the Select Committee on Exiting the European Union in another place on two occasions, and will appear before that committee when it has been re-established. In those 15 months, there have been a further 14 occasions where my department’s Ministers and officials have given evidence to a wide range of committees. We continue with our commitment to engage fully with Select Committees. There are various ways in which we can do that, and I very much look forward to discussing those matters in detail with individual committees and their chairs.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend think that there is any prospect that when the Government report on the negotiations to this House and to the other place, we will not see the same speeches made by the same people who are still fighting the referendum campaign and trying to reverse the result brought about by the British people?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

Immediately after the result of the referendum last year, when I said that I had voted to remain, I also said that when democracy makes a decision you accept it and move on. My noble friend is right.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we are moving from general principle to detail on the negotiations now, and it is the detail that we find extremely difficult. I remember that before we joined the single market, when Mrs Thatcher was negotiating it, a study demonstrated that, actually, the British accepted US regulation in domestic law as a matter of course, because we had to accept international regulation on a whole host of things. We are now discovering about the detail, and if we are leaving the EU both Houses need to be kept informed on the question of which international regulations we accept, and how we proceed, on everything from blood supplies to airline regulation. Many lobbies will be extremely interested, and that is the hard stuff that we need to be kept informed about. Can the Minister give us some reassurance?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

The noble Lord is absolutely right about how crucial it is that, as negotiations progress and there is more of a convergence of agreement about what is, as he says, very detailed technical information about the status of regulations after Brexit, we are able to transmit that information. I assure him that that is what we have sought to do throughout the summer. One brief example is provided by the common position paper, published by both the EU Commission and the UK, on our negotiations on the status of citizens. Clearly a wide range of issues, including highly technical ones, are involved, and after the August round we updated the online convergence annexe immediately and made sure the information was in this House. That really shows how we are trying to transmit that detail. But I do not underestimate the complexity or the amount of detail that I know the House will wish to scrutinise.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that the issue of periodicity of reporting, which the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, raised, is not the only one at stake? There is also, of course, the content of the reports, which up to now has left something to be desired—and also the ability of this House, when the report is made, to have more than the time that is made available when a ministerial Statement is made. Will the Minister consult the usual channels to see whether, in the case of Brexit, which is a matter of huge interest to all parts of this House, the time allowed for discussion following a ministerial Statement on the progress of the negotiations is a bit longer than is allowed on a normal one?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I think there are many views around the House about how noble Lords wish to participate in the scrutiny of these matters. A Statement is, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, just one method. There are indeed occasions when the usual channels can arrange debate, and I thank my noble friend the Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms for being so generous as to put time on the Order Paper next Tuesday so that this House can examine the position papers at length. That is a measure of the generosity of the Government; I hope that it will be met in good spirit, and not undermined by others.