Northern Ireland Affairs Committee
Wednesday 28th October 2026
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09:31
Tonia Antoniazzi
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Tonia Antoniazzi
Welcome to the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee session on Pension Credit take up in Northern Ireland. We're joined by Siobhan Casey, the Commissioner for Older People in Northern Ireland. And virtually, we are joined by Kevin Higgins, Advice NI's head of policy. So welcome, both of you. Siobhan, we haven't got time to have a you know, to have much of a preamble, but if you could outline the current picture of Pension Credit take up in Northern Ireland and why it matters.
09:31
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It really matters because I think what people don't understand is that, you know, by receiving pension credit, it unlocks so many other, you know, opportunities for people. But also I think it's for me, it's about, you know, it's protecting people from poverty. You know, and if we don't get pageant credit entitled, you know, if we can't reach them, you know, that's, that's saying a lot. We've got about 8% of people in relative poverty and then more 8% of people in absolute poverty of older people in Northern Ireland. So, you know, we're seeing that, you know, as they get up from their 60s and 70s and 80s, that's growing.
And that sort of the oldest pensioners are facing the greatest financial vulnerability. But I think it's the thing that, you know, we have got very low state pension or private pension rates in Northern Ireland compared to the rest of the UK. So that means that people are particularly, you know, dependent on, on their state pension. So unless, you know, it really leaves them vulnerable to rising living costs and unexpected expenses, difficult to heat homes adequately and maintain a healthy diet. So all of those things will then lead to deterioration in physical and mental health. So that then puts pressure on public services.
And then when public services are stretched, that makes it even harder for them and it's more, more vulnerable. There's growing evidence, too, of increased food insecurity in older people. So that's why, you know, getting these type of entitlements to them is really important. Also, you know, the fact that older people live with are likely to live with one or more sort of long term health condition or a disability, you know, means that their, you know, their living conditions can worsen . And people in and, and sort of many older people live in fixed income, so they don't have the opportunity to increase their earnings.
So I think the why is it important? Well, I'm conscious that our, you know, our analysis, you know, the Department of Community Analysis, you know, was back in sort of the early 2020s, but it's and they're looking to aggregate better data. And that's really, really, really critical. But, you know, the latest trends are saying that we're having an increase, which is really good. And we all know in the Department of Communities in Northern Ireland, they have a really good Make the Call campaign, which is there. And they also have, you know, they're really trying to promote better.
But, you know, that sort of that doesn't that the fact that our population, our older population is increasing every year by 6 or 7000, you know, people over 65, then, you know, that's, you know, it's the ageing demographic. We've got to be aware that this is sort of coming down the line.
And that sort of the oldest pensioners are facing the greatest financial vulnerability. But I think it's the thing that, you know, we have got very low state pension or private pension rates in Northern Ireland compared to the rest of the UK. So that means that people are particularly, you know, dependent on, on their state pension. So unless, you know, it really leaves them vulnerable to rising living costs and unexpected expenses, difficult to heat homes adequately and maintain a healthy diet. So all of those things will then lead to deterioration in physical and mental health. So that then puts pressure on public services.
And then when public services are stretched, that makes it even harder for them and it's more, more vulnerable. There's growing evidence, too, of increased food insecurity in older people. So that's why, you know, getting these type of entitlements to them is really important. Also, you know, the fact that older people live with are likely to live with one or more sort of long term health condition or a disability, you know, means that their, you know, their living conditions can worsen . And people in and, and sort of many older people live in fixed income, so they don't have the opportunity to increase their earnings.
So I think the why is it important? Well, I'm conscious that our, you know, our analysis, you know, the Department of Community Analysis, you know, was back in sort of the early 2020s, but it's and they're looking to aggregate better data. And that's really, really, really critical. But, you know, the latest trends are saying that we're having an increase, which is really good. And we all know in the Department of Communities in Northern Ireland, they have a really good Make the Call campaign, which is there. And they also have, you know, they're really trying to promote better.
But, you know, that sort of that doesn't that the fact that our population, our older population is increasing every year by 6 or 7000, you know, people over 65, then, you know, that's, you know, it's the ageing demographic. We've got to be aware that this is sort of coming down the line.
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09:34
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Problem. And thank you to the committee for allowing me to dial in remotely to this. And also a word to your staff. Thank thank them for all the work they've done to set this up as well. For me, this is so important is because older people, this is this is to do specifically with this uptake issue is it's because older people are not getting what they're entitled to, not getting what the law says they need to live on. And to me, that's, that cuts to the heart of it. We have people out there and we're talking here about older people that the law says need a certain amount of money for because of their needs and circumstances, and they're not getting that.
And to me, given that we're in the cost of living crisis that Siobhan has talked about, and if you look at, for example, home heating oil, older people obviously will be in their homes a lot longer, particularly older, older people. And if you check out the the home heating oil prices in Northern Ireland, it's well over £1,000 for 900l of oil. So that's just one example. And we know about two thirds of households in Northern Ireland rely on home heating oil. So that's just one specific example as to why it's so, so important that every penny of money that should be coming into all households, particularly older persons, households, should be coming in.
And so I welcome that. The committee today is focusing on pension credit uptake, because I think it is an issue that needs a lot of attention in terms of of the numbers. The estimate, the estimates from the department, which admittedly are dated their 20 1920. The department are working on updating those figures. So we'd expect some shift in this. But there's an estimate approximately what . According to those figures, 66,000, about 72% of those entitled are receiving it. And that leaves about 28%, or around 26,000 pensioner households that aren't getting the pension credit that they're entitled to.
And then in terms of amounts, it's about 1.1 million per week in unclaimed pension credit, which will total up to about 55 million per annum. And on claim entitlement, which is a significant amount of money, and particularly on budget day. And we all know that, you know, we're all talking about money today. So I think it's very, very appropriate. We're talking about the money that's not coming into older people's households.
And to me, given that we're in the cost of living crisis that Siobhan has talked about, and if you look at, for example, home heating oil, older people obviously will be in their homes a lot longer, particularly older, older people. And if you check out the the home heating oil prices in Northern Ireland, it's well over £1,000 for 900l of oil. So that's just one example. And we know about two thirds of households in Northern Ireland rely on home heating oil. So that's just one specific example as to why it's so, so important that every penny of money that should be coming into all households, particularly older persons, households, should be coming in.
And so I welcome that. The committee today is focusing on pension credit uptake, because I think it is an issue that needs a lot of attention in terms of of the numbers. The estimate, the estimates from the department, which admittedly are dated their 20 1920. The department are working on updating those figures. So we'd expect some shift in this. But there's an estimate approximately what . According to those figures, 66,000, about 72% of those entitled are receiving it. And that leaves about 28%, or around 26,000 pensioner households that aren't getting the pension credit that they're entitled to.
And then in terms of amounts, it's about 1.1 million per week in unclaimed pension credit, which will total up to about 55 million per annum. And on claim entitlement, which is a significant amount of money, and particularly on budget day. And we all know that, you know, we're all talking about money today. So I think it's very, very appropriate. We're talking about the money that's not coming into older people's households.
09:37
09:37
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. No it is increasing. You know, I think that you know but I think it's increasing in line with the, you know, the promotion from the Department of Communities, but also the fact that we've got this 6 or 7000 people every year, you know, reaching 65 and coming in. So the trends are are going up.
09:37
09:37
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, things like housing benefit, cold weather payments, free television licence for age 75 and over and help with dental, optical and hospital travel costs and even, you know, a small award. You see, I think this is probably in camel. Back this up. This is the reason a lot of people are not claiming is they're afraid to declare maybe first of all, we talked about outside their Tanya, their pride, you know, they're not really wanting to go out and say that they need extra support. But then you've got the whole instance of the, you know, the, you know, declaring sort of things like savings to public authorities.
People are afraid of doing that because maybe take away from other benefits also because they're private, but by, you know, but the thing is, even if you're entitled to a small amount of pension credit, because you get, I think it's one point they declare one point for every 500 savings. Then even if you get a small amount of pension, it unlocks so much more. And I really do think that's the message that we need to get out.
People are afraid of doing that because maybe take away from other benefits also because they're private, but by, you know, but the thing is, even if you're entitled to a small amount of pension credit, because you get, I think it's one point they declare one point for every 500 savings. Then even if you get a small amount of pension, it unlocks so much more. And I really do think that's the message that we need to get out.
09:38
Simon Hoare
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Simon Hoare
I just want to ask about pride and the reticence that pride might bring and the use of the word credit. Credit suggests debt. And I just wondered if either of you have any thoughts on whether there's a presumption that older people are less keen to apply, and whether there's any differential in Northern Ireland between urban Northern Ireland and rural Northern Ireland has always been my take that rural communities are more resilient, if I could use that phrase and less inclined to ask for anything than urban. But I just wondered whether you have any observations on that.
09:39
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I just I worked in NI for 15.5 years before I took this job. And, you know, that would have been a constant thing where people were saying, you know, they didn't want to take money in case it would take away from schools or other, you know, other other areas of, of the economy. And, and, you know, they didn't realise that this was a, this was an entitlement. You know, it's not a favor, you know, it's actually an entitlement. So I think that's, that would have been my experience in terms of trying to convince people is, yeah, you're entitled to you work hard for this.
It's not, you know, taken away from other key services. So therefore, you know, that's it's important that you you do claim, Kevin, would you have more information on the rural urban kind of split on that?
It's not, you know, taken away from other key services. So therefore, you know, that's it's important that you you do claim, Kevin, would you have more information on the rural urban kind of split on that?
09:39
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you for the question. My sense of that would be in terms of rural in Northern Ireland, there are certain issues that maybe would make it a little bit more difficult for older people to get the information and advice that they might need in order then to go ahead and maximize their rights and entitlements. So, for example, access to services, being able to travel to, to get to their so for example, in reliance on public transport. And that can be difficult. And sometimes it's, you know, there are issues with that. And maybe there's just one, one bus to a certain place and then back in the evening.
So travel can be very, very difficult. And you find maybe in urban areas there'll be more accessible services, the likes of advice services and advice centres where you can pop in and, and seek the information that you may need. So from that perspective, there could be more resilience. I agree in rural areas, but that resilience might then mean that people aren't pursuing what their rights and entitlements are, that they're getting by. And that maybe takes me to some of the issues. And you're right around a lot of older people would have this, you know, this sense of independence and, you know, worked all their days.
They've paid their stamps or their big stamp or their national insurance. And therefore, you know, they want then to be have the, the respect and the dignity and the right to be able to almost then live on the, on the stamp and the insurance. And so that then feeds into the this issue of not being reluctant, then why should I have to divulge all my financial information and my bank accounts and so on? So there's, there's that sense I, I do also interestingly think there's another issue around. And it's almost around guilt. You know, it's around older people are very, very aware of what has happened, I suppose generally over this last 10 or 15 years in terms of cuts to the Social security system, and particularly for working age people and for a large extent, with the triple lock, older people have been protected.
But working age, you know, and with various austerity measures and cuts and reforms and freezes and so on, older people are very aware of that. And so I think that that issue has fed into this as well, that there's a sense of, well, I have enough to do me type of attitude and seeing other people maybe getting it a lot tighter or finding it a lot more difficult than they are. And therefore there's a certain reluctance to come forward as well.
So travel can be very, very difficult. And you find maybe in urban areas there'll be more accessible services, the likes of advice services and advice centres where you can pop in and, and seek the information that you may need. So from that perspective, there could be more resilience. I agree in rural areas, but that resilience might then mean that people aren't pursuing what their rights and entitlements are, that they're getting by. And that maybe takes me to some of the issues. And you're right around a lot of older people would have this, you know, this sense of independence and, you know, worked all their days.
They've paid their stamps or their big stamp or their national insurance. And therefore, you know, they want then to be have the, the respect and the dignity and the right to be able to almost then live on the, on the stamp and the insurance. And so that then feeds into the this issue of not being reluctant, then why should I have to divulge all my financial information and my bank accounts and so on? So there's, there's that sense I, I do also interestingly think there's another issue around. And it's almost around guilt. You know, it's around older people are very, very aware of what has happened, I suppose generally over this last 10 or 15 years in terms of cuts to the Social security system, and particularly for working age people and for a large extent, with the triple lock, older people have been protected.
But working age, you know, and with various austerity measures and cuts and reforms and freezes and so on, older people are very aware of that. And so I think that that issue has fed into this as well, that there's a sense of, well, I have enough to do me type of attitude and seeing other people maybe getting it a lot tighter or finding it a lot more difficult than they are. And therefore there's a certain reluctance to come forward as well.
09:39
Simon Hoare
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Simon Hoare
Could I, could I, I'm not going to get into the weeds of the overall welfare budget, because I think actually the data points in an opposite direction to the one that you suggest. Let me just ask this very specific question of both of you. A yes or no answer will suffice in your assessment. Is there a problem with the use of the word credit?
09:39
09:39
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think so very often what I find people coming through our doors, you know, it's cold, hard cash. People that are struggling to pay bills get their tank of oil filled and so on. So at this stage, because we're in this cost of living, living crisis, if you like, it's almost things like that are maybe less important. If we weren't in the situation that we were in, you know, potentially things like that would would come to the surface and the name of things could be important. But I think we're in a place at the moment where it's maybe potentially less important.
09:39
09:39
Paul Kohler
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Paul Kohler
Thank you, thank you. Thank you for joining us, Kevin and Siobhan, I was just wondering to what extent this is a Northern Ireland problem or a UK wide problem. Do you have any figures on comparison between the uptake in GB or the regions of GB compared to Northern Ireland? Is it better or worse or do we not know? Kevin.
09:39
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We should know, I haven't, I haven't analysed the figures. There will be uptake figures and I know the government have just recently, in terms of GB, have launched a a pension credit uptake campaign. So I can certainly get the numbers for the committee. It's not something I've analysed in preparation for this meeting.
09:39
09:39
Robin Swann
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Robin Swann
Thank you, chair and morning, Siobhan. Kevin, you've touched on the impacts that actually ineligible pensioners who don't claim pension credit by that on logging mechanism that opens up other avenues for support as well. In your assessment, how much is that low uptake on pension credit actually contributing to both pensioner poverty and fuel poverty? You touched on it briefly, Kevin, just with the price of oil. But I think of the overall impact.
09:39
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think it is. And you know, it's definitely impacting on it. You know, given the the heating costs. But also look at those figures around food insecurity and the fact that older people are the highest group. That's the largest group now going to the likes of Trussell Trust. There was a There was. 91% increase, you know, in terms of going for, you know, for food support. So I think, you know, between the experience of and then the Winter fuel payment as well, you know, with that being reduced, you know, I think there's, there's .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
In terms of verified. This is extra money in people's pockets during that benefit uptake campaign with the independent advice sector. And if you look at the you know, the amount is currently is estimated, but it could be very, very different from this. But it's around. 55 million if you do a targeted uptake campaign. And that generates anything in and around . 15.
09:41
09:41
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You're having a real significant impact on the amount of money that's going on claimed. And I completely agree with you. Imagine the impact that that. 15 or 20 million will have on the. Well, first of all, in the mental health and wellbeing of older people that they they'll feel, well, I can go and I can fill, I don't have to get. 500l or 200. I can fill it up. I can get proper food into the, into the fridge. I can I, you know, get taxis to where I need to go for GP and dental appointments and so on.
So all of that would be a huge. fantastic .
So all of that would be a huge. fantastic .
09:42
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Boost if we can maximise the uptake for older people. I think it's even just in terms of, you know, Kevin was saying and taxis, it's about the social life as well , because we're seeing that the community. transport has been used up to take people to health appointments. So we're, you know, we're it's really necessary. particularly in terms of rural areas, we're trying to get people into, you know, use community transport to get to do shopping, to get to the hairdressers, to get to whatever, you know, that extra amount of money gives them .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The weekly amount is. 241 30. So that's. 241 30. And if you look at the standard minimum guarantee in pension Credit for a single person, it's 238. So it's just those couple of pounds below. So it speaks very clearly to your point. You know that in terms of amounts of money, it's good on the one side that people will claim their state pension. But on the downside of it, then the scope to be able to get a top up of pension credit. And it's so, so important, as we've touched on for the likes of the.
Passporting and the things like, for example, in Northern Ireland, we've got our current home heating oil support scheme and no doubt in the budget there will be other targeted schemes, you know, to help with the cost of living. But you can bet that a lot of those schemes will mean that you'll have to be on pension credit to get an entitlement to them. So that, again. reinforces how important it is that people are getting their pension credit entitlement.
And if you're not, you'll lose out on some of these .
Passporting and the things like, for example, in Northern Ireland, we've got our current home heating oil support scheme and no doubt in the budget there will be other targeted schemes, you know, to help with the cost of living. But you can bet that a lot of those schemes will mean that you'll have to be on pension credit to get an entitlement to them. So that, again. reinforces how important it is that people are getting their pension credit entitlement.
And if you're not, you'll lose out on some of these .
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09:47
Gavin Robinson
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Gavin Robinson
Okay, I'm just going to bring in Gavin before bringing Claire. Hanna, good morning to you both. It's just to follow on from Robin on thresholds. About 20 odd years ago, whenever I was starting helping political office, I remember a lady came to me and we talked to her about pension credit. And at that stage, six. £6,000 was what you're allowed maximum as savings. And she had around seven. And I've never forgotten her looking me in the eyes and said, but son, 4000 of that is for Wilton's, which was the local funeral director. Yeah. And it showed the sort of savings and.
preparation she had made. So she wasn't burdening anyone else. And at that stage then we were able to talk to her, not about. divesting savings, but about maybe taking. pre-payment plan so that she could invest in the funeral. Yes, but also then bring herself within the eligibility criteria for pension credit. And I wonder how much of the advice, whether it's advice and I, or even through make the call service, do they give practical and tangible advice that would allow .
preparation she had made. So she wasn't burdening anyone else. And at that stage then we were able to talk to her, not about. divesting savings, but about maybe taking. pre-payment plan so that she could invest in the funeral. Yes, but also then bring herself within the eligibility criteria for pension credit. And I wonder how much of the advice, whether it's advice and I, or even through make the call service, do they give practical and tangible advice that would allow .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I can answer that. Yeah. And thank you for that question. I mean, there's a couple of aspects to it that are really, really important. So it was 6000. And my understanding now it's 10,000. But the point still applies. That lady could come in with. 11,000 and look and say exactly the same thing. So, so it's a fair point. And in terms of thresholds, if you could, if you were to be able to and if we could shift it from.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Then potentially now, that was some years ago. There's a debate to be had around shifting it from. 10 to 15 and so on or up to 16. So I think there's there's a point well made there as well. And the other point that I would say is often what we find in advice centres is people will come through the door, you do the just the start. calculation and you'll find, as you did Gavin, that actually the person there's no entitlement to pension credit there for whatever reason, you're slightly under. But if you what the the trick is, or what you have to do is not leave it there, not not just park that issue.
What you do is you will look at the. circumstances then of the individual. Very often you'll explore other health problems or disabilities and so on, and then it becomes a circuitous route that if that person, if you can get an entitlement to attendance allowance, not only is that a bit of additional money, but that attendance allowance. unlocks additional premiums within the pension credit.
What you do is you will look at the. circumstances then of the individual. Very often you'll explore other health problems or disabilities and so on, and then it becomes a circuitous route that if that person, if you can get an entitlement to attendance allowance, not only is that a bit of additional money, but that attendance allowance. unlocks additional premiums within the pension credit.
09:52
09:52
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And then that will allow you then to make and get a successful pension credit application. So your point is well made that and you'll know this in constituency offices all of you and advice centres it's there'll be a sort of an initial face value, but your work only starts at that point. And then it's exploring, doing a holistic piece of work, exploring every avenue. And very often as the example that I gave you, then you can get to a get to a place where you can get.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The additional unlock, the additional income that's entitled to that household. So there is an issue on the savings. I agree with you, and I also agree with you that very often there's just more than meets the eye to doing this pension credit uptake work. It's not accepting what comes forward at face value, and it's unlocking the .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Of recommendations, you know, I think that like the at the minute we're calculating how much, you know, the amount of people that were, you know, are, are applying as opposed, I think we need I should have a report two weeks ago. And it's about planning for an ageing society. And I think as a department, we need to look past publicity and application numbers. But actually look at, you know, the successful awards and the additional income. But, you know, with this demographic increasing year on year by 7000 or whatever, then how are we going to do really sort of proactive thing?
But also at the stage of.
But also at the stage of.
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09:58
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Older people who they believe are missing out and write a letter and send it into their homes. Now, that type of targeting is, is really, you know, it's, it's not scattergun. It's, you know, it's, it's direct. So I think that's, that's really good. And we've worked with them on the outreach letters and we're going to work with them in terms of the actually promotion of it, because I think, you know, somebody receiving a letter under their home still might be a bit kind of a bit concerned. So it's about with advice and I, H and I, the commissioner's office all going together and saying, look out for this.
This is important. This is important to you. So that's, that's, that's a good kind of proactive approach. I think that's been adopted by the department. But I think it's also . important that point that I made earlier on about the independent advice sector that that there needs to be support, you know, for for these. organisations as well, you know, for accessible claim handling and.
This is important. This is important to you. So that's, that's, that's a good kind of proactive approach. I think that's been adopted by the department. But I think it's also . important that point that I made earlier on about the independent advice sector that that there needs to be support, you know, for for these. organisations as well, you know, for accessible claim handling and.
09:59
10:00
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Because people will prefer to come to advice na or na or their local resource centre to get to get the support. So I think we have to be seen in, in the collaboration and the collective around. I think the other the other just the two other recommendations I would say would be that other public bodies need to be signposting as well. It's that, you know, working right.
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10:00
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, and I know they would do that, you know, say, for the Housing Executive and things like that, they'll all be working to try to identify people who are there. So I just see, yeah, I think there's, there's, there's good work being done, but because of that age and demographic coming forward, it has to get better, more targeted. And I know the department are doing more about .
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10:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Kevin, do you want to go on that? Yeah, I mean, it's a fair point. And during your whole working life, you're always been encouraged to, you know, save for your retirement and be. responsible and so on. So I think then you, to some extent, you shouldn't be penalised for that. So therefore, I think there's a judgment call to be made there, whether the the level of savings is a little bit too low, it's too punitive.
So if you were to raise that.
So if you were to raise that.
10:02
10:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
As we were discussing earlier, from ten to say, 15 or whatever, you know, there's a balance to be struck between, you know, still providing that support to those people. No, it's not a an awful lot of money, if you like. And people are older, people like to have that bit put away that they can leave for future generations or to take care of themselves maybe later on. So I think there definitely is a debate now. I would I would be supportive of those levels increasing a couple of points, just to your point, Claire, around levels again, to repeat that, the new state pension.
241 the minimum guarantee of pension credit. 238 so.
241 the minimum guarantee of pension credit. 238 so.
10:04
10:04
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Structurally, straight away there, you know, there'll be if there's no other. circumstances there, that person will not be entitled to pension credit because new state pension is those couple of pounds over. So so there's a there's a systemic a structural issue there. And I do think there's a there's a bit of thought required in terms of the trends and so on. I know in.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Roughly to 60. I think Siobhan's point that actually in recent months there's been a it's bucked the trend, if you like. There's been a slight increase in Pension Credit claims, but to me, it's a downward trajectory. And it's. understandable given given the the increased amounts that are now in new state pension. And also given the increased state state retirement age. So I think shortly we may actually get to the point where we're below. 60,000 for the first time ever in terms of pension credit claims. So so I think it's it's there's just more to the statistics.
It takes a little bit of nuance there that it could be a slight increase now, but the overall trend could be down, which makes it even more important that every single household that should be getting even a little bit of pension credit for the reasons we outlined, there needs to be more effort. The department needs to put more effort. We all need to put more effort .
It takes a little bit of nuance there that it could be a slight increase now, but the overall trend could be down, which makes it even more important that every single household that should be getting even a little bit of pension credit for the reasons we outlined, there needs to be more effort. The department needs to put more effort. We all need to put more effort .
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Gavin Robinson
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Gavin Robinson
That they're entitled to. Thank you. Thanks, Gavin Robinson, thanks very much, chair. And yeah, hopefully lead us into the next question. Kevin, when you're talking about the department needing to do more, as you know, this committee, Westminster based, clearly interested in Northern Ireland, but there's obviously a wider Whitehall discussion. So could you help us. understand the. breakdown in.
responsibility for the funding and the. promotion and the delivery of Pension Credit between the Department of Communities in Northern Ireland, which are devolved, and. Department and the Department of .
responsibility for the funding and the. promotion and the delivery of Pension Credit between the Department of Communities in Northern Ireland, which are devolved, and. Department and the Department of .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Work and. Pensions in Westminster? Right. Well, to me and others can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but to me Social Security is devolved to Northern Ireland. Therefore, complete. responsibility will lie with the Department for communities and the Minister in the Department for communities. So to me, it's very straightforward in that respect that we don't have to look over to Westminster, we don't have to look to.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You know, ourselves in Northern Ireland to do what we have to do and in this case, to do what we have to do to increase pension credit uptake. Now, I know that we, in terms of systems and so on, and there's the issue of poverty and all of that. But the fundamental point is that Social Security is devolved. Therefore, you know, the the. responsibility .
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Gavin Robinson
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Gavin Robinson
Lies with the department and the minister and to me unpack that a little bit. Just unpack that a little bit more then it is devolved. But we operate the same system. We operate the same system in exactly the same terms, with the same criteria and legislation. And the money's coming directly from Westminster. And the systems are Westminster systems that are used. And so to deviate from any of that, there's a cost, right.
But at the moment, whilst it is the department's.
But at the moment, whilst it is the department's.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Deployed in Northern Ireland. Isn't that right? Yeah. I mean I was, I was that's exactly right. And that's why, you know, that's why we would operate on this principle of parity so that we can, you know, achieve the efficiencies and the savings by using the same systems. And we don't build our own system here. So so yes, we're devolved and dependent, if you like, but the principle of parity would carry across and, and for the vast amount of time, and I suppose to give you an example and you'll know this well, Gavin is around, you know, the working age and the introduction of the welfare reforms and universal credit.
And there was the the intense debate, if we put it that way, around the introduction and and because of the potential differential impact in Northern Ireland, particularly around the introduction of Pip, twice as many people per head of population claiming working age DLA at the time. So, you know, there was a concern about the impact of welfare reform. And so what we ended up doing, we did introduce all of that. But you'll remember the Everson Working Group was set up. And then we put our own unique. mitigations in place. And for example we have our benefit cap.
mitigation that was put in place back with the Everson Report recommendations. If I can defer a little bit, that benefit cap. mitigation is worth its weight in gold now, because we know the. government abolished the two child limit. So therefore, in terms of families with children, and we're talking about families with children in Northern Ireland, we have the two child cap abolished and we have the benefit cap mitigated. So it's a fantastic sort of. But you're right, we had to have our we had to build an IT system in order to deliver our unique mitigation system, and we have to fund it.
The executive took the decision to fund it out of the block grant. So I divulge a little bit there. But in terms of the pension credit, yes, we tend to plough the same furrow if you like, but the. responsibility is local. And in terms of uptake, you know, we can do a lot around awareness raising and, and uptake. campaigns and a little bit of funding to places like Ajna and advice .
And there was the the intense debate, if we put it that way, around the introduction and and because of the potential differential impact in Northern Ireland, particularly around the introduction of Pip, twice as many people per head of population claiming working age DLA at the time. So, you know, there was a concern about the impact of welfare reform. And so what we ended up doing, we did introduce all of that. But you'll remember the Everson Working Group was set up. And then we put our own unique. mitigations in place. And for example we have our benefit cap.
mitigation that was put in place back with the Everson Report recommendations. If I can defer a little bit, that benefit cap. mitigation is worth its weight in gold now, because we know the. government abolished the two child limit. So therefore, in terms of families with children, and we're talking about families with children in Northern Ireland, we have the two child cap abolished and we have the benefit cap mitigated. So it's a fantastic sort of. But you're right, we had to have our we had to build an IT system in order to deliver our unique mitigation system, and we have to fund it.
The executive took the decision to fund it out of the block grant. So I divulge a little bit there. But in terms of the pension credit, yes, we tend to plough the same furrow if you like, but the. responsibility is local. And in terms of uptake, you know, we can do a lot around awareness raising and, and uptake. campaigns and a little bit of funding to places like Ajna and advice .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Westminster systems funding Westminster and promotion. Department of communities. And just in terms of you know, Kevin mentioned unique mitigations and I spoke earlier on about there's like, I think. 660,000 leaflets going out here and by the Department of Work and Pensions to promote. So that's going out into certain localities across the UK. Whereas, you know, our what the Department of Communities are planning to do here is direct targeting.
And, you know, so .
And, you know, so .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Understand that. Kevin, have you any view. Yeah. Well, in terms of say, the targeted letters and so on, obviously that data is held by the Department for communities, and that's a unique exercise. And we'll be writing out to our own people here in Northern Ireland, completely separate to what DWP are doing. You know, they have their database of their potential, you know, pension Credit, people who may be entitled. So it's it's standalone, if you like, in terms of the, of the data and, and the work that is being done, I do think it also speaks to this issue of us needing to be a lot.
smarter around data sharing. There's a lot of information that's held both within the Department for communities in the various benefits that are within that and. between departments as well. And for example, maybe health will be able to see that there are certain older people that their health problems are are.
smarter around data sharing. There's a lot of information that's held both within the Department for communities in the various benefits that are within that and. between departments as well. And for example, maybe health will be able to see that there are certain older people that their health problems are are.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Their health is declining a little bit, which would then mean if you put your benefits hat on, there could be entitlement to attendance allowance and the severe disability premium on pension Credit. So if the if the department could be better, you know, joined up both within the Department for communities, but joined up, particularly with health and other departments. There's a real scope, as Siobhan was saying there, in terms of the. targeting and being able to have a more personalised. conversation with almost at an individual level to say, you know, Kevin Higgins, I think you could have an entitlement to pension credit that becomes a more powerful.
conversation rather than, oh, you might be entitled to ring this number, which people, you know may not engage with that to a great an extent. So I think this issue around data sharing is something that we should be .
conversation rather than, oh, you might be entitled to ring this number, which people, you know may not engage with that to a great an extent. So I think this issue around data sharing is something that we should be .
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Gavin Robinson
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Gavin Robinson
From what we can from the conversations with the Department of Communities. So, you know, let me ask you this question, Paul. Caller was asking about the difference between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, whether it was a UK wide phenomenon or just a Northern Ireland issue. And Simon Hoare is asking questions about the rural and the urban divide, you know, and the support and the resilience of people in separate communities. What .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That differ from Great Britain? That's I think I don't know that they differ. You know, I think I think the barriers are the people wrongly assume that owning a home or having savings or receiving a small occupational pension excludes them. So I'm thinking award will be too small, you know, to justify applying. So others fear disturbing existing benefits, as I said earlier, but but many find the system confusing. I think the application process is, you know, can be quite it's quite rigorous. And, you know, you can imagine if you're in your 70s or 80s, you know, it might be off putting.
So I think, you know, and we talked about people feeling uncomfortable to ask. So I think that the I mean, I work closely with the commissioner in Wales, you know,
So I think, you know, and we talked about people feeling uncomfortable to ask. So I think that the I mean, I work closely with the commissioner in Wales, you know,
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Gavin Robinson
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Gavin Robinson
Understand from them as well, it's it's the same it's the same issues. Okay. And Kevin, I, I presume you're pretty ni based, whereas Siobhan is now engaging with people across the United Kingdom. So I'll move the question on just for you, if that's okay. And we did talk about trust and Simon asked questions about whether credit is the right phrase, because that. implies a level of debt or some sort of burden.
You haven't picked that up as an issue, but do you want to just expand a bit more on some of the pressures around .
You haven't picked that up as an issue, but do you want to just expand a bit more on some of the pressures around .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Trust in government, whether you believe those to be. And we would find that. And it's to be expected. Older people won't know the. intricacies of the benefit system. So I think the starting point is, and a starting point for many is this fear of doing something wrong and, you know, not knowing what they don't know. And so obviously then there'll be a fear factor. So, so to me, there's a , there's a fear factor there that's very, very important. And as I said, the. complexities of the system to me, when people come into advice services and you unlock entitlement, and if you look at the the severe disability premium, additional amount on pension credit is actually it's.
£86 a week. So the basic minimum is 238. But actually, if you meet this other bit of.
£86 a week. So the basic minimum is 238. But actually, if you meet this other bit of.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You can actually boost that by almost £90, £100. If there's a couple and they both satisfy it, it's 172. So as well as the fear of doing something wrong, because often when we unlock that money for people, often they'll look at the advisor and they'll go, are you sure about this? I don't want to be doing something wrong. Actually, I'm not sure I should be claiming this additional money at all. So is this almost fear of taking the step even to get advice to see? And even when you present the additional money to the to people, they go, oh, I'm not sure.
I don't know about that. So so there's just this reticence, I think, Gavin, that that is just it's just inherent in older people that they have enough to get by. They've got the state pension and so on. But I think if they become more aware of the. potential amount of money that they could be missing out on that, as they say they can be deploying then towards cost of living and oil and, and everything else then, and also to maybe just think about that, the word credit. I know people will have very mixed opinions about universal Credit, and there would be conversations about that all the time in terms of that.
So the word credit to debt, I'm not so sure of, but the word pension credit was somehow linked to Universal Credit. That might have maybe, you know, mixed views out there in the public domain could be something that that actually is a .
I don't know about that. So so there's just this reticence, I think, Gavin, that that is just it's just inherent in older people that they have enough to get by. They've got the state pension and so on. But I think if they become more aware of the. potential amount of money that they could be missing out on that, as they say they can be deploying then towards cost of living and oil and, and everything else then, and also to maybe just think about that, the word credit. I know people will have very mixed opinions about universal Credit, and there would be conversations about that all the time in terms of that.
So the word credit to debt, I'm not so sure of, but the word pension credit was somehow linked to Universal Credit. That might have maybe, you know, mixed views out there in the public domain could be something that that actually is a .
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Katrina Murray
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Katrina Murray
How their lives were fundamentally. changed when they got, when, when they got the, the level of, of benefit benefit those days, it was pre pre pension credit, but they got got the support that they were entitled to compared to the generations that are, that are following who, who have had the benefit of workplace.
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Katrina Murray
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Katrina Murray
In that. And certainly that's what's borne out by, by government. statistics is that you have got the the pensioner poverty is. most a is most obvious in the over. 75 age group. I'm really interested in the targeting. proposal and particularly how you're using how you're using that to drive to drive the the take up, is it just going to be or is it going to be the right.
We know you fit this criteria. How do we how can we convince you to .
We know you fit this criteria. How do we how can we convince you to .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Help complete the forms or, or do that? The Department of Communities have identified the target, the number of people. And then what they've reached out to advice any age, any other advice people and the Commissioner's office to to help them even just I mean, I thought it was good. I was saying, make sure you let us see the script. You know, what you're writing to people because sometimes even the language is important. So having that, I know AJ and I co-designed it with their older people as well. They passed it by them. So it's just that collaboration.
So they, they're, it's their database based on, you know, the information that they have, but they have said that they're going to do more work in terms of, you know, what Ken was talking about, you know, cross. departmental targeting. But it's all, as you know yourself, it's data.
So they, they're, it's their database based on, you know, the information that they have, but they have said that they're going to do more work in terms of, you know, what Ken was talking about, you know, cross. departmental targeting. But it's all, as you know yourself, it's data.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The most important thing. And also getting to people over 75 writing them. But I think the department is I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's very targeted. And it's, you know, if, if what, what, what they did at as well, the, the letters is, you know, the contact advice and I or age and I to get more information so that people didn't automatically .
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Katrina Murray
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Katrina Murray
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I think that's why I let her go through the door just to pick up a few other points on that. I know when we were procured to to deliver benefit benefit uptake exercises generally and pension credit uptake in particular, things, the specific I suppose targeting that was done then was older people that were getting housing benefit but not getting pension credit. So there was a obviously, if you're getting housing benefit, there's some element of means tested has taken place there. So it was used as a bit of a proxy that there could be entitlement to pension credit.
So using housing benefit as a proxy was one thing that we did and it was effective. The other issue was people that were getting attendance allowance and not getting pension credit, for the reasons that I talked about earlier, that it can trigger additional premiums. So again, that can be it can be like a filter that can be done and targeting, which can be effective. And then the other, I think layer that we used to do was we, we would almost take age. You know, it's not to say as you get older, your health will will always decline or whatever, but there can be a sense that as you get older, you know, things become more difficult and health problems can emerge.
So again, there can be targeting by, by, almost by any age segment as well. So that and that would be aimed at saying, well, could there be an entitlement to attendance allowance that would then bring entitlement to pension credit as well. So there's various things
So using housing benefit as a proxy was one thing that we did and it was effective. The other issue was people that were getting attendance allowance and not getting pension credit, for the reasons that I talked about earlier, that it can trigger additional premiums. So again, that can be it can be like a filter that can be done and targeting, which can be effective. And then the other, I think layer that we used to do was we, we would almost take age. You know, it's not to say as you get older, your health will will always decline or whatever, but there can be a sense that as you get older, you know, things become more difficult and health problems can emerge.
So again, there can be targeting by, by, almost by any age segment as well. So that and that would be aimed at saying, well, could there be an entitlement to attendance allowance that would then bring entitlement to pension credit as well. So there's various things
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Various things that you can do that could be very, very effective. And they were effective. The one final point, I would say just to Siobhan's point, and I know the department , and I welcome that the department are doing the the targeted letters, I suppose, in you'll expect me to say this anyway, but that may well generate increased demand for the advice services where people will come in and we'll have to do the work with that.
So I suppose I would gently ask that the Department might. consider doing it as part of a.
So I suppose I would gently ask that the Department might. consider doing it as part of a.
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Katrina Murray
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Katrina Murray
Also, I'm sure we'll get great results for those people that are targeted. I hope you take this in the in the right manner, Kevin. I hope it does generate more work for the advice services. Do that. The only question is what linkage has there been with the health Department? And if you're talking about increased increased levels of.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And very often the signposting from GPS and advice centres will put their posters up in GP surgeries, you know. So but it's a that can be hit or miss. I think, you know, it's doing something that even if the GP would say, you know, contact your local advice service, I think, you know, there are benefits that you could be entitled to given, you know, the health problems that .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
You're presenting with. I think that joined up could be really, really effective. And also when people are getting their, you know, coming to pension age, you know, if that's. 7000 that I'm talking about coming through every year, the 6000, if they were given the letter directly to say, you're not approaching this, you're, you know, you'll be taking your state .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And Omagh? Are you aware of the campaign and what was your evaluation? I think it's I'm not sure that it's finished yet. I got I think it's quite it's quite recent from what I can see. But I think that's, that's really it's really good. I mean, from an agency point of view, we would have frequently looked at, you know, what, what, who would be calling, you know, from from the different areas in Northern Ireland. Fermanagh was was always quite low. I don't know what the statistics for advice and I are, but I think that that's that's that's the type of thing.
But it'll be.
But it'll be.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Good. Kevin. Anything. And I do think that the local authority there for the local council for for doing that work. And very often it can be an individual within the within the local council that really drives this or drives the anti-poverty measures within the council area. So it'd be really interesting to see sort of the, the results of that. And because obviously we would want to see that rolled out across in all local council areas so that, you know, just because you live in one council area. But but there could be particular reasons, maybe low uptake in a very rural area there and Fermanagh, Omagh.
So it could be .
So it could be .
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Mike Kane
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Mike Kane
Particular areas, but we would be keen that it would be rolled out across all council areas. Great. Well I was just going to give a shout out chair in the second part of my question to. Manchester University Foundation Trust, who've deployed live well hubs in all three of their hospitals across the city of Manchester.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Provide the advice where people actually are? I think that's a fantastic idea. It's absolutely brilliant. And do you know that a fundamental. If you look at the if you look at the the pension credit criteria, if you think of it as a, you know, the basic guarantee amount, and then there's the additional premiums and the additional premiums are often linked to health and. disability and so on. So, you know, I think it's where where do people go when they have their health problems? They go to their GP or their hospital and so on. So I think taking that, if we're serious about it, let's just cut to it.
If we're really serious, if our lives depended upon making sure that every. possible older person is entitled to pension credit gets it, then this is what you would have to do. You'll have to just take the information on the service to to where the people are, because otherwise you can signpost and.
If we're really serious, if our lives depended upon making sure that every. possible older person is entitled to pension credit gets it, then this is what you would have to do. You'll have to just take the information on the service to to where the people are, because otherwise you can signpost and.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But that'll, that'll not get you the results that you really, really want. Whereas if you break down those barriers, you make it easy for people. And it could even be, you know, a triage at that level. You know, it needn't be just experts in the benefit system, but it could be able to take it far enough, a personalised service that actually does the job. If there's any more complexity, you could refer it then on in .
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David Smith
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David Smith
You've been right, David Smith. Thanks, chair. Good morning Kevin. Good to meet you. You've touched on some of this a little bit, but I wonder if you could elaborate further. And Gavin Robinson was asking about the relative. responsibilities of the. Department for communities versus the DWP, etc.. But in simple terms, what more should the government be doing to.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Things, what more do you think they should be doing? Earlier I talked about them developing a really targeted plan, but that, you know, for that sort of the existing demographic and the demographic that's coming through, you know, because it is really increasing. And that's, you know, again, moving from general awareness to proactive help, you know, for, you know, doing initiatives like that. But I think, you know, I know that make the call, you know, team will go out to different, you know, they'll go out to any meetings we want them to go to, they'll come out with us if they if we need them to come out.
So I think they are trying to be more, you know, sort of in situ in on the ground. I think the the sustainable funding for independent advice is Kevin said, you know, we need that. It's it's a it's a.
So I think they are trying to be more, you know, sort of in situ in on the ground. I think the the sustainable funding for independent advice is Kevin said, you know, we need that. It's it's a it's a.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
You know, that not everybody wants to go to the department. Some people want to go to the independent advice service. And I think that's that's important. You mentioned procurement and that. And and I think the fourth thing was like every relevant contact with public services is what we're saying around, you know, you know, when people. And I think it does happen to a certain extent, but it's just making it more coordinated. Kevin mentioned earlier about the, the, the link with housing benefits, the link with the Housing Executive, which is, you know, probably the main. property manages the main property in Northern Ireland and right across the health service.
It's very difficult to get into GP surgeries to get. information into them. You know, you know, sometimes I always find it through pharmacies. It's it's it's easier to get through, but it's more that, you know. really getting the information out where people are, you know, you have. 100,000 people coming through pharmacies every day, you know, to get things. So, so it's making every relevant. contact sort of work, you know, from housing and heating and whatever, you know. So I just think it is about, you know, really robustly looking, looking at what these but measurement now .
It's very difficult to get into GP surgeries to get. information into them. You know, you know, sometimes I always find it through pharmacies. It's it's it's easier to get through, but it's more that, you know. really getting the information out where people are, you know, you have. 100,000 people coming through pharmacies every day, you know, to get things. So, so it's making every relevant. contact sort of work, you know, from housing and heating and whatever, you know. So I just think it is about, you know, really robustly looking, looking at what these but measurement now .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Department for Communities and Government in Northern Ireland in particular, can do this. Great question. And it gives the opportunity to give a good straight answer, whatever it takes. Siobhan's point around pharmacies, because, you know, very often, increasingly GPS are it's a telephone first service now. So it's not like the old days where you put up posters and people would see it and so on. So things have moved on in terms of the the G aspect pharmacies is an excellent idea as well.
The two things for me would be, number one, reinstate the.
The two things for me would be, number one, reinstate the.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Programme that were run in partnership between the Department for communities and the independent advice sector. Where you did you did this. targeted people were invited to contact their local advice service and it was all verified results. Then we would then share the data back to the. department and was verified pound for pound, the amount of additional money that was generated for people. So it wasn't just, oh, we did X amount of letters and so on. It was actually what, what did that result in? What extra money was was generated for people. So number one would be reinstate that targeted exercise.
And number two. maximise data sharing within and between departments. There are easy wins. There's low hanging fruit there that that we could be using to, to be targeting people and to make sure that people are getting what they're entitled to. So if we have all the data on these people, that would, would, would fairly indicate that there could .
And number two. maximise data sharing within and between departments. There are easy wins. There's low hanging fruit there that that we could be using to, to be targeting people and to make sure that people are getting what they're entitled to. So if we have all the data on these people, that would, would, would fairly indicate that there could .
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David Smith
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David Smith
Be an entitlement. Why aren't we using that data to maximum? It seems to be one of the most frustrating things in government, full stop is getting government to work together. But if we could sort of move just beyond government for a second. My second and final question is more about what what government can't do. So my background is in charities. Before I became an MP for 20 years, over 20 years, and it always struck me there's a proposition. Agree or disagree. It always struck me that charities could do. things that. governments can never do because of the dynamic.
And it partly goes to the the issue that my colleague Simon Hoare raised about pride when it comes to the issue of pension Credit with older people, but really fundamentally boils down to. relationship and the type of relationship that you have with a local community group or your local church or a local. charity that you trust. And would you agree that there could be should be perhaps a bigger role for charitable.
And it partly goes to the the issue that my colleague Simon Hoare raised about pride when it comes to the issue of pension Credit with older people, but really fundamentally boils down to. relationship and the type of relationship that you have with a local community group or your local church or a local. charity that you trust. And would you agree that there could be should be perhaps a bigger role for charitable.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Interface that people often have with a government department. No, I totally agree with you, David. You know, and it's been my experience working with NI for years that, that it's really important that the people have an. independent charity to go through that they can trust and that they, you know, that they know that they're not talking to the, you know, the officials at an early stage when they're trying to determine what their entitlements are. And but I think, you know, it goes it goes back to funding and what Kevin says as well. But, you know, and that sort of data collection, data sharing and.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Absolutely right. Thank you Kevin. And if your proposition agree or disagree, I would have to agree. And almost if it's not not to be hammering the department on this, but just to say so, the Department are trying their best in terms of the uptake. And I think we could do more. But the Department also have a. responsibility and of quite a public facing campaign around fraud. And to me, they have to do the two things. But to me, it's very, very difficult to balance those two things because. people will hear the message about fraud, particularly older people, and then they'll think to.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Right, well, should I then should I then embark on a journey around getting information around increasing. entitlement because of the fear of doing something wrong? So it's not to be overcritical of the department. They have to do both. But I think it's difficult for them to do both. And that's why I think the procuring out of the of the uptake work, at least to some extent,
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The state that I should have, would have thought would be available for every financial year. Yeah, you would have thought so. But I do understand that they're, they're, they're bringing it up to date from my conversations with them. So and I do understand that they're trying to do the data sharing a bit better as well. But I think it's about the linking into poverty statistics and all of that. You know, it's the cross. mapping that there needs to be that more of a, you know, sort of think tank in terms of innovation. But I, I .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Is far too dated. I will give a Bible to an extent around we all embarked on Covid in 2020 and and. everybody had their focus elsewhere for , for two or maybe 2 or 3 years. But, but I think now these statistics need to be analysed because they're so, so important. We can't have older people existing on income less than the law says they need to live on the . You you make an astute point around, well, they're about to maybe they're released some more.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But what year will those statistics relate to? So for example, if they relate to 23. 24 will soon be in 2027. Actually you would argue that they will become dated very quickly as well. So we need to try to get to a position where we're reporting , maybe now we're coming near Christmas. We should be reporting then on the year.
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Tonia Antoniazzi
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Tonia Antoniazzi
Mind, having a lag of 2 or 3 years is just excessive. I'm very acutely aware that we're talking about something that is. devolved here, and as a Welsh MP, it's really important that we get the picture in devolved countries. So for me, it's important that this data is available in Wales and for my Scottish colleagues in Scotland. Do you think that then is a UK government responsibility because it's also been picked up as well, that, well, why is Northern Ireland different? Why are we looking at this? Evidence shows that it could be and that's why we've got this session today.
And I'm kind of like asking you should it then be a UK government responsibility? Should it be an I o responsibility? Should it be a.
And I'm kind of like asking you should it then be a UK government responsibility? Should it be an I o responsibility? Should it be a.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
You know, in terms of how people interact with. I mean, they'll have to be sharing the data anyway. So but I think, you know, what gets what gets measured gets done. So that's why it's important that the data is there and that that it is shared between the nations. So I mean, who, who coordinates it. I mean, I think it'll have to come from local sources anyway won't it. In terms of the applications for the for the benefits.
So I think it's .
So I think it's .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, the essential high level data that needs to be. harvested so that, you know, we get a consistent approach across the UK. So how can we. Well, it may take some you could legislate for that or, you know, you you place a. responsibility on the. minister that these statistics will be available. And I'm sure if that. responsibility was placed, then no, they would become available.
So it's a matter of coordination.
So it's a matter of coordination.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Figures be available annually. Available annually. And then you'd be wanting to refer to what year. So it could be annually but dated 2 or 3 years historic. So you wouldn't want that. So annually based on the previous financial year or whatever you'd be stipulating that you wanted. And that would you'd have to give some time for it to be analysed and so on. So there will always be a lag, but annually for the last financial year would mean they could publish it around Christmas.
And it would be for,
And it would be for,
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
How the executive and government encourages an uptake of pension credit? Well, we're pushing very much for not just in in pension credit, but right across the piece that, you know, that the data regarding older people is it's, you know, it's taken you've got basically 65 plus, you know, take for example, crime, you know, you're not able to break down what type of crime, what, you know, where and what age groups. So I think it's really important that it's some blocks of maybe five years, you know, 60, you know, and, you know, and the poverty stat, you know, stats that I was looking at earlier on, you know, it's saying that the, you know, the, the between 70, there was.
80 or 16% under, you know, 65 and over. But then when it came to.
80 or 16% under, you know, 65 and over. But then when it came to.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Didn't have the. opportunity to build a private pension or whatever over the years. So we were able to say in Northern Ireland, even though our our poverty statistics are slightly lower than the rest of the UK, we, you know, we can go in there and sort of discern that, you know, women in their 80s are, you know.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Term conditions and disabilities and things, rural areas you brought up as well. Well, I think that was saying, and it's not something that I'm conscious of. Well, apart from those that that Mike mentioned about the target and Fermanagh and Tyrone, that because the NI would have discerned that there wasn't very many calls coming from there. So they're trying to build it. So yeah, I .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Have you got anything to add, Kevin? One thing that I would just add, chair, would be people who are self-employed during their working life. They may then they get to the point then where they're no longer able , their mechanics or farmers or whatever it is, and they're no longer able to work. But their their contribution record just may not be complete. And so therefore they, you know, they may not have a have a retirement. Package, let's call it that.
That would be maybe equivalent to maybe their peers, let's say. So I think the.
That would be maybe equivalent to maybe their peers, let's say. So I think the.
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Chris Bloore
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Chris Bloore
Be a particular area there as well. Okay. Thank you very much, Chris Blow. Thank you Sean, and thank you, Kevin, for your answers so far. We may hear more about this later today about about tax liability of pension pensioners. And my question is meant to be asking you what the government should do to support pensioners in Northern Ireland affected by perhaps going out of the tax free allowance.
I suspect in an hour or two we might hear what is about to happen. But could .
I suspect in an hour or two we might hear what is about to happen. But could .
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