Lords Chamber

Thursday 22nd May 2025

(began 3 weeks, 1 day ago)

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None Portrait Oral questions: Sutton Trust’s Opportunity Index and plans to increase opportunities for social mobility in the UK
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with us, and especially those who Experience so they can help us move forward in this area.
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Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Conservative)
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Palestinian territories.

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Let me begin by joining with others in acknowledging the scale of the humanitarian crisis that we are seeing in Gaza. Lives are being lost, people are suffering immensely. We on these benches join with all noble Lords, I'm sure, across the house and I hope that the across the house and I hope that the conflict is brought to a conclusion as quickly as possible. Obviously, I appreciate that the U.K.'s position appreciate that the U.K.'s position and influence in this matter is somewhat limited and probably even more so now.

We must never forget that this conflict started when Hamas, a repulsive terrorist organisation, undertook a murderous, organisation, undertook a murderous, viscerally anti-Semitic attack on viscerally anti-Semitic attack on civilian people. The attack continues every single day that hostages remain and Hamas's captivity. Israel has the right to defend itself against this ongoing attack and returning the hostages to their families is the righteous objective. We must support them in this effort and user diplomatic efforts to help to facilitate it.

I therefore want to ask the Minister what engagement has the government held with key stakeholders in the region to help to secure the release of those people who remain in Hamas's hands? Has the UK helps to develop an overall strategy for getting these sons, doctors, brothers and sisters returned to their families? The only way we can resolve this conflict is by getting these hostages home and the government must be able to demonstrate they are taking practical steps to facilitate this. Whilst the conflict is ongoing, getting aid to those who need it is a key practical priority, I hope, for the government.

Noble Lords may recall a debate last week on the recall a debate last week on the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. The government refused to consider this as an alternative to UNRWA which is itself connected to the attacks on October 7, the event that started this in the first place. The Israeli government is rightly suspicious as a banner -- suspicious of UNRWA, given the record. The government seemingly remains committed to supporting the current failing model so can the Minister please update the house on what the government is doing to help get aid into Gaza? What discussions have they had with representatives from other countries to make sure that aid to those who needed -- need it and is not stolen by Hamas? What steps are we taking to ensure that no aid from the UK gets into the hands of Hamas? Finally, we are clear that Hamas will never be part of any future In the Prime Minister's statement the other day he threatened the Israeli government with further concrete steps of they do not comply to his demands.

Can the Minister give us an example of what these concrete steps will be? Or will it be like King Lear to his daughters. I will do such things, I know not yet what they shall be. But they shall be the terrors of the earth. Finally my Lords, following on from the Memorandum of Understanding that was reached between the UK and Palestinian Authority last month, I want to ask the noble Lord the Minister what progress has been made in holding the Palestinian Authority to undertaking serious, measurable and tangible reforms on corruption, on education, and welfare policy and on democracy to help to strengthen resilience against the threat of Hamas in the future? Will the Minister update the House on what work is being done with the Palestinian Authority to advance progress in these areas? Can he assure us these are discussed in talks with partners in the authority? My Lords, we all support a swift end to this conflict.

Which has cost far too many lives on all sides. And has led to an incredible amount of suffering across the region. We need to recognise the practical steps we the UK can take to support this resolution and help those who are in need in the region. To that end I hope the noble Lord, the Minister will be able to cover these questions I have raised and show what steps we are taking today to return the hostages, get aid in and crucially make sure Hamas are finally eradicated.
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Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)
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My Lords, it would be utterly inconceivable of us to have even imagined walking out of this building of Parliament and witnessing every child in London being forcibly walked to Slough with their mother and back again three times on foot and offered no shelter, beds or sanitary products of the -- sanitary products if they are a girl. And with no food they literally face dying of starvation. This would be utterly inconceivable to us. But it is the reality in Gaza.

And now we see as a result of choices being made at a political level, biopolitical administration in Israel -- by a political administration in Israel, set up a foundation to finance profiteering mercenaries to weaponise food and medicine to children in illegally occupied land which plumbs new depths of moral bankruptcy. To provide that assistance. Can the Minister first of all guarantee not a penny of British money will be channelled through this route? Amongst this utter horror, hostage families are still going through families are still going through torture.

Indeed for those who I have seen and families who I have spoken to, speaking out against the Netanyahu administration is extremely moving because they are still in a situation where their loved ones are not home and they do not know if many of life. I welcome the statement of the government and the intent but I do wish them to press the Minister at this time for the government to go even further. Since the statement in the House of Commons earlier this week now even the British official carrying out their diplomatic role in a territorial we have an absolute right under international to access -- international law to access has been under fire as a so-called warning shot.

This is euphemistic and streets I have walked and British officials carrying out business, what action has the UK government taken as a result of this shocking incident? Also since the statement, Benjamin Netanyahu is confirmed or other extremist Ministers have said his government's policy is now two illegally annexed territory which they have no international right to do. Given this is now clear government policy it needs to be the UK government policy to move on the recognition of Palestine as a state with urgency.

Therefore I urge the Minister to take my noble friend, Baroness Northover's bill in this House and move ahead with the clearest possible intent to prevent illegal annexation of subjugation. These ventures have regretted there has been a lack of action since last February when we called for the wider and expanded sanction of those Ministers in the Netanyahu administration which saw repression in the West Bank and have acted illegally in the outposts of settler violence. That combined with what we now see now which is collective punishment of civilians within Gaza.

Those responsible need to be sanctioned by the UK and there should be no impunity for the tragedy which is being inflicted on the civilians there. This means our government and our partners need to be backed. With regard to the security of the aid being provided, of course there is justification with regards to concerns that Hamas has sought to loot age, to commercialise aid and to prevent it from the source. At a time when we have seen the most effective delivery of aid has been with UNRWA and provided with the ability to do so and Palestinian Authority police force supported by British by British assistance has been able to port and provide security -- to support security and allow the A3.

Will the government provide urgent assistance to the posting and aid authority to make sure aid once over the border can be provided securely. I remind house there is over 100,000 tons of aid waiting to get into Gaza and it is being blocked unjustifiably. And therefore will the government make a clear statement that until this happens Prime Minister Netanyahu and Ministers are not welcome in the United Kingdom? And this will be not conducive to our public good. Finally can the government press the International Court of Justice to accelerate its work to ensure there is an international standard of which we all wish to see an international humanitarian law is adhered to and those responsible for its breach are held to account.

its breach are held to account.
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Lord Collins of Highbury Portrait Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I thank both noble Lords for their questions and contributions. Can I say to the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan. The United Kingdom has played an active role in coordination of our and with our international partners since the beginning of the conflict. The Foreign Secretary has visited Israel and the occupied territories three times since taking office. We have pressed for a resolution to secure a ceasefire and to see the return of all hostages. It is absolutely the first ask of this government, ceasefire, return of the hostages.

Absolutely. Can I just actually sort of also if I look at the point the noble Lord Purvis made, we are absolutely committed to upholding our responsibilities under domestic and international law. And by the way the independence of the ICJ is also something we have value. We are not going to put pressure on them and they know their job and we will facilitate them but they are independent and we respect their independence as an international Court.

And we have absolutely been consistent in ensuring that international law is acted on in a manner consistent, that we act in a manner consistent with our legal obligations. As the noble Lord, Lord Purvis said, humanitarian aid must never be used as a political tool or military tactic. The UK will not support any aid members that seek to deliver political or military objectives and puts vulnerable stood -- venerable civilians at risk. That is the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan. That is why this government and the previous government were absolutely committed to supporting the best possible means to get aid into Garda -- into Gaza.

It remains UNRWA. We are absolutely committed to that. I think we should see that the blocking of aid and the disastrous consequences of that do not put Israel's case first. The people of Israel who wants security and deserve security, particularly after the atrocities of October 7. They absolutely are not supporting the rhetoric and the means expressed by Netanyahu and some of his Cabinet member. We are absolutely determined we should be very clear about our position. Of course my noble friend, Baroness Chapman the Minister for development has been in Israel this week.

She has been in the occupied territories. The Occupied Palestinian Territories. We have made our position very clear about the position of our diplomatic workers. To the is really government. And we will continue to do so. I have personally visited the occupied territories and I have seen some of the actions of independent of what I would call settler outposts who have behaved in a really appalling way. And now with IDF forces more focused on Gaza those very people, those very people the outpost settlers are now taking on the duties of IDF.

I think that is the cause of some of the problems. But during her visit this week she has announced £4 million in new support to organisations on the ground in Gaza. We will continue to support and this will cover essential, medical supplies, for up to 32,000 people. Safe drinking or for up to 60,000 people. And food parcels for up to 14,000 people. Seeking to get food, water and medicines. That is what we are talking about. Basic fundamental issues that need to be addressed.

And so far since October 7 we have provided 405,000 patient consultations across Gaza, food aid to at least 647,000 people and improved water sanitation and hygiene services. But we know the situation is absolutely desperate. Which is why we took the action. We are together with our partners strongly opposed to the expansion of Israel's military operations in Gaza. We have reaffirmed our cause for the Israeli government to stop its military operations and to allow immediately allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.

Yesterday the Foreign Secretary announced new sanctions to target those supporting violence against Palestinian communities in the West Bank. Following extremely surges in this kind of violence and surges in this kind of violence and we have allowed in part of the statement free-trade negotiations with this will effective immediately. This is because it is not possible to advance discussions on deeper trading relationships of the Netanyahu government that is absolutely pursuing policies which are damaging to the UK, the wider region and most importantly to Israeli citizens themselves.

I think this is the really important thing. We are committed to a two-state solution, we are committed to a political solution. We are doing everything we can possibly do to achieve that. We are committed to supporting the Palestinian Authority. We are supporting their reforms. I am not going to predict how far they have reached but it is absolutely essential we do that because that will form part of the process for a longer term solution. So we are absolutely committed to ensuring not only the people of Palestine and in Gaza and the occupied territories are able to live in peace and security but also

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that applies to the state of Israel. Order, order.

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Order, order. My Lords. I should explain I
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Lord Collins of Highbury Portrait Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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dissent. And journalist are threatened if they in any way criticise Hamas. What are we doing to support the people of Gaza to help them against Hamas?

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It is by supporting the Palestinian Authority and its road Palestinian Authority and its road back to reform to become a much more legitimate, that is the answer. That is the pathway to a two-state solution. There is no role for Hamas solution. There is no role for Hamas in the future. They are a terrorist organisation that has committed heinous crimes and we should never forget those crimes. He is forget those crimes. He is absolutely right that they are repressive and they have taken control, and they are resisting any control, and they are resisting any form of scrutiny.

Absolutely. It's also the Israeli government that has also the Israeli government that has not allowed journalists into Gaza as well. I think we should be very, well. I think we should be very, very clear. We want a roadmap to peace, we want a solution, but that peace, we want a solution, but that will only be achieved if we can actually ensure that the Palestinian Authority can reform and be Authority can reform and be supported, and that it can be the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people.

And, of course, Palestine is not just the Gaza strip. It is also the occupied territories. We need to ensure that all the people of Palestine are represented by the Palestinian Authority and can have the voice they deserve. the voice they deserve.
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
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My Lords, may I firstly draw

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My Lords, may I firstly draw attention to my entry on the Lords Register. Equally, the final sentiment that the Minister has just expressed, I think that reflects expressed, I think that reflects across the House, wherever we are on this emotive and human issue, and that is very clear. May I suggest there are practical steps the there are practical steps the government can take. First of all, I've alluded previously to out-of- the-box thinking on delivery of the-box thinking on delivery of humanitarian aid.

Since September last year, the Minister will be aware, I will ask him again at that aware, I will ask him again at that we must work with Jordan, we must work with Egypt. That is not perfect. LAN solutions must be provided but out-of-the-box thinking, including air deliveries, thinking, including air deliveries, provides some respite. That's the first thing. Secondly, diplomacy matters. -- Diplomacy solutions. Relationships matter, being underground, investing in those relationships. Is not always about public statements. Sometimes it is about private diplomacy and building relationships with those in Israel who want to resolve this.

Finally, on the egregious abuse of human rights. The previous government set up the regime. The Minister will be aware there are those unfortunately be -- unfortunately, regrettably who the Israelis themselves reject. Minister Smotrich and Ibn Ben-Gvir. Them Israel -- the Minister might Them Israel -- the Minister might not be able to comment directly. not be able to comment directly.
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Lord Collins of Highbury Portrait Lord Collins of Highbury, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Labour)
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I'm grateful to the noble Lord. He and I have worked very closely over the years on precisely the issues he has talked about. I agree with him about the diplomatic effort. Sometimes the most effective diplomatic effort is one you cannot see. Shouting is not always the way to achieve what we want. We acknowledge the visit this week to Israel and Jordan. We also had Minister Faulkner talking to and regularly speaking to neighbouring countries. He is absolutely right.

We are not ruling out anything in terms of age. He repeatedly reminded me in terms of the desperate situation that it isn't airdrops and sea routes that could be a way of alleviating things. We are not ruling anything out. But locking eight has had a disastrous effect and we will be absolutely committed I do think we are going to ensure and I think he is right to point out there are voices in Israel, there are extremely concerning voices in Israel.

-- Extremely concerned voices in Israel. He knows I cannot comment on future sanctions but we have committed with the work we have taken new UK sanctions targeting three individuals including prominent settler leader as well as to illegal outposts and is and to organisations who have supported and promoted violence against Palestinian communities in the West Palestinian communities in the West Bank. Individuals and entities sanctioned are numerous. We are absolutely committed to ensure we do focus on these actions.

He knows we are actively considering future designations but I cannot comment who or when they will be. who or when they will be.
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Baroness O'Neill of Bexley Portrait Baroness O'Neill of Bexley (Conservative)
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O'Neill.

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My Lords, I rise to move amendment 29 and will speak to amendments 31, 39 and 40. In my previous contribution I suggested there were many parts of this bill about which there are major concerns. The multiagency child protection teams for local authority protection teams for local authority areas is the most concerning. The main concern being statutory early main concern being statutory early responsible directors of children's services should not be mandated in statute develop this way of working.

The preference would be the local The preference would be the local working practice should be at the discretion of local areas in how they arrange child protection they arrange child protection services. The problem this is trying services. The problem this is trying to solve, the sad deaths of Starr and Arthur will not be solved by this proposal. The proposal is to separate out family help and child protection. That could mean workers in family help will believe they are not responsible for child protection as is managed by a team elsewhere.

However the reality of life is the family help team need to be able to identify when a child or family situation has tipped into risk. And it is unsafe. In order for the MAC TP to get involved. -- To be alerted to get involved. Instar and Arthur's case even when the team had been in place, the children may not have been referred. Because the workers involved did not recognise the potential risks to both of the children.

I know the Minister said the other day the findings of the pilots would be published in spring 2025 but we are about to go into summer. And they have not been seen yet. That means the model has not been fully tested. And has no research back to the veracity of the model. Surely that has to be done before the bill comes into effect. The MAC TP is predicted on staff being supplied from the police and health as a core for the team.

We know the financial pressures these services are under. So this is likely to be impossible to achieve at this national scale. There is also the uncertainty around the future of the Integrated Care Boards, the ICBs. In the health world. No certainty that Safeguarding badges will not be reduced. There is no additional funding to achieve this. What happens if health and police cannot provide staff for the MAC TP is? Where does the buck stop? Many believe the requirement for MAC TP's should be removed from the legislation.

Or make it they can decide locally how these services decide locally how these services will operate my Lords, amendment 29 seeks to clarify what support the Secretary of State will require multiagency partners to offer. There was a conversation here on Tuesday evening about the role of schools, ably led by my noble friend. Will the Secretary of State be mandating -- be mandated -- be mandating what the partners are responsible for? We know about the questions and discussions about budgets.

Will the Secretary of State be determining money should be ring-fenced? And who will determine what partners are responsible? Health and police are named, education seems to be in question but there will be others who have potentially a role as well. Amendment 31 looks to ensure there is an effective multiagency team. We are all aware of the need for consistency of involvement in Safeguarding. And effective multiagency team will need to have consistent involvement. There will need to be ownership of involvement and attendance or participation will need to be assured.

Amendments 39 and 40 seek to clarify how places that have cost which cross local authority borders will be managed. These amendments are clear. It will be good to understand how issues that straddle local authority borders will be managed and where the responsibility lies. Because we

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know our borders... I move the amendments. Amendment proposed, clause 3, page 3. Leave out lines 25 and 26. page 3. Leave out lines 25 and 26.
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Lord Hogan-Howe Portrait Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
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My Lords, I rise to explain my concern about these child protection teams. Well intended as they are. I think Baroness O'Neill has explained think Baroness O'Neill has explained there are some dangers to the arrangements that has been proposed. I think the good intention behind it is to dresses one of the fundamental problems we have had in child protection in the past which is many of the authorities who are charged with confronting the child abuser have become frightened of them.

A consequence when someone should have gone into the House and dealt with it, they have walked away. It has happened to the police at times I am afraid as well. Generally speaking I think it is better obvious lie when it is necessary there is someone there who is prepared to take on the frightening person who has done so much damage to a child or a baby. My concern is if you are to include the police in this team it leads to a certain amount of confusion about their role.

First of all while the police there? They are there generally because they are there to enforce the law and to use the skills they have in that respect. They are not there because they are particularly good at child protection. That is why social services exist. It is why health visitors exist, it is why schools receive incredible training and are very good at helping children in the developing. Police officers generally it is not their skill set. They are there to confront, investigate crime and confront the suspect.

The second point is they obviously are independent in the operation of their powers. They are not under local authority control and not under control of government. They are not even under the control of Chief Constable as I discovered from many occasions because they have discretion under the law and are held account by the law in 1/4 times. They have to exercise caution with regards to law. What concerns me about this proposal as it appears they are moving under the local authority.

I know there are many great people here from local authorities and I do not judge them at all. Sometimes that independence is vital. Not because the control of the local authority inherently is bad but sometimes they have to investigate local authorities. They have to be separate and they have to be clear. They might Ashley have to investigate a local authority about the care of a child. And therefore to bring them into the team I think is dangerous and could confuse that They can make arrests, they can do searches, they can search for evidence, but I don't think it is wise to bring them under the control of this team and I'm really worried if that should happen.

On my second concern is that clearly there have been pilots of a form of team around the country. I think there are 10 of them. I think the result of that is yet to be published. What's not clear is whether all the pilots are the same. In my experience, and we have multiple pilots of different things that all think they are the same, we sometimes come to the wrong conclusions. I think we need to see the evaluation. Different pilot might draw different conclusions.

If that is the case, that would be concerning for me. There ought to be a clear model that has been tested. If it works, we all want to hear that evidence. But we haven't heard it. It is such a radical change, well intended though it is, the government ought to explain how that is going to be taken into consideration. If there are enough concerns about how it might develop into the future. Well intended though it is, at the moment, I've got more questions than agreement with the proposal as it stands.



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Iris to speak to amendments 32 and 35 which relate to children with and 35 which relate to children with disabilities because these children are sadly more at risk and need our protection. Before I begin, could I protection. Before I begin, could I just say to my noble friend baroness Fraser, I'm sorry that she cannot be
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Baroness Sanderson of Welton Portrait Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Conservative)
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Fraser, I'm sorry that she cannot be here today. She is exceptionally knowledgeable in this area. I hope that she will approve of the following arguments, particularly in relation to with cerebral palsy. While there are many different forms of disability, of policy systems and practice can get things right for children with cerebral palsy, then the benefits will be felt by children with other conditions. Evidence gathered by the APPG through its report found that many parents with children with cerebral palsy lack confidence in local authorities to make suitable arrangements further child.

Some feel like local authorities are obstructive, inconsistent, unaccountable. Provision tends to reflect what local authorities are able to provide, rather than what the child concerned needs to have the best chances in life. Now, much of this stems from the fact that when it comes to children with profound disabilities, local authorities are not always necessarily the people with the best knowledge to be able to make the right assessment and be suitably ambitious for the child. Section 17 of the children's act, as referred to in amendment 35, outlines the local authority's duty to assist children who are in need, and this definition includes children with disabilities who may require paediatric developmental assessment to fully understand their needs.

Amendments 32 and 35, when taken together, would provide an acknowledgement of the necessity that a member of the specialist health team involved in the provision of care for the child, someone who understands the condition and has the sector experience to understand what is possible, to be involved in the multidisciplinary children's protection teams. The persons referred to in subsection 3 in relating to provision of health would have to be involved in the bodies -- multidisciplinary teams are only defined as the health professional.

Therefore, this means that the health professional nominated by the board could be the same person who represents the health board for all the other assessments. The text does not specify they have to know anything about the child, the health prognosis of the condition, the services and interventions that must be best for the child, whether or not they are or are not available in any one particular authority -- local authority area. Based on specialist experience of children with disabilities.

In Scotland, children with profound disabilities have a nominated health professional who is responsible for coordinating Takes the responsibility for ensuring the needs of the child Ahmed. Sometimes committees needs, as you might imagine, might be quite specific and technical. For example, when dealing with specialist resources for communication, assistive technology -- assistive technology. This lead health professional who has practical knowledge of the individual child's circumstances and condition would therefore always be included in the multidisciplinary team discussion.

It would not just be a representative of the health board or paediatric health commission. Only recently in her letter to The Times, Professor and Eileen Munro warned against giving these responsibilities to less qualified staff. I urge the Minister to accept these amendments or at least think of these amendments as they outlined the importance of including a member of the children's disability team, someone who knows the condition and not just a generic professional. Guaranteeing the right to representation on these teams will representation on these teams will go a long way to ensure assessments are likely to be safeguarded, that children at risk have swift access to the resources they require and where local areas do lack appropriate provision or expertise, there is a voice of knowledge to ensure there is no fear of commissioning, a voice I can work with other specialist providers in the best interests of the child.
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Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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I rise to speak to my amendment 36 but I'm delighted to support my noble friend baroness O'Neill and her amendments and also my noble her amendments and also my noble friend baroness Fraser who was represented by my noble friend today. All of these amendments seek to clarify some of the operational issues with the proposed multiagency child protection teams. I don't want to steal from the noble Baroness the Minister's remarks but I think she might remind the house that the context for introducing these teams came from the Independent Review into Children's Social Care which the previous government commissioned and was led by the honourable member for Whitehaven and Woking 10 -- working 10 -- Wokington.

This was tested out along with wider reforms to targeted family help and support for children in need is to find under the Children Act. So the spirit and direction in which this is going is something that we support but our concern, as Lord Hogan pointed out, are about how it is operationalised in practice. Noble Lords may be aware that in a former life for joining Your Lordships' House, I was involved in the establishment of multiagency teams all around the country to address high risk cases of domestic abuse which were known as multiagency risk assessment conferences.

We did that in every local authority in the country. As the income of those children of those teams were managing around a thousand -- in the end, those teams were managing around thousand children's cases. I do feel for better or worse I am familiar with the issues that are important when operationalising this kind of work and the detail is important to these teams. How senior are these people? Is it a senior representative covering all cases? As my noble friend Baroness O'Neill said, who is friend Baroness O'Neill said, who is ? And the noble Lord Lord Hogan, how can we share information legally? How does information sharing translate into action planning and how do we involve the family? These and many other issues are so important to get right and we will explore them in more detail in some of the other groups in this clause.

Turning to my amendment 36, it simply seeks to understand how the government thinks that the new statutory multiagency child protection teams will interact with the existing multiagency work, in particular... There are so many acronyms in this world. The MASH teams. It's in the documentation. teams. It's in the documentation. The MASH teams which are pretty much universal now around the country. They are not statutory. Some are great, some perhaps less so. How does this team interact with the Multiagency Risk Assessment Conferences? Or the multiagency protection...

We know that resources are tight so need to avoid duplication. Equally, we also know that no statutory agencies, and I know the noble Baroness lady Taylor who is in her place knows this extremely well from her work outside this house. Non-statutory agencies at the very least bring different information to multiagency work, but frequently, there really trusted and can build relationships and families that can be harder for statutory agencies with the powers that they hold. I would just be grateful if the noble Baroness the Minister could set out how she expects the multiagency child protection teams multiagency child protection teams MASH, the MARAC and any other -- -- MA acronym that is around.

Just in keeping with my noble friend Baroness O'Neill, my key question in relation to amendments 36 and 39, how does she think the involvement of partners both statutory and non- statutory will be funded? What we hear from the Pathfinders is that it is very difficult to get other agencies outside the local authorities to participate in the teams, and that some of the extra funding that Pathfinders have been given is gone on funding police officers to attend multiagency child protection team, which in my world feels like an odd thing for the local authority to be doing.

And clearly, I assume the noble Lady doesn't think that is a sustainable model, that loan for non-statutory agencies, where all too often we rely on their goodwill and don't acknowledge the pressures on their budgets. I'm also very interested to hear the ministers reply to my amendment 39 and 40. She will know that for vulnerable families, it happens all too often that one parent lives in one local authority and another lives in another. Families move from temporary housing in one authority to another.

Child might be groomed by a gang in another local authority. I think I'm right in saying that a contributing factor in the tragic case of Sara Sharif was that she moved local authorities. The understanding of the degree of harm she faced did not move with her. The language in the bill which talks about child protection teams only working in their local authority area really worries me and I absolutely support my noble friend's amendment 40, which replaced it with a clear statement about cross-border responsibilities of local

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I would like to build on the

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I would like to build on the point made by my noble friend, point made by my noble friend, Baroness Barran, and add my support to amendments 39 and 40. I wondered if in her response, the noble
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Baroness Berridge Portrait Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
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My Lords, I rise to support amendment 40, my noble friend, Lady Evans, pragmatic timing issue, which I previously mentioned in your Lordships house. But firstly, close three is not a political matter, -- Clause three is not a political matter, it is well-intentioned response, as highlighted in the tragic cases of what led to the McAllister review foot I would be grateful along with the noble Lady, Lady O'Neill, to know whether these changes would in fact solve the problem highlighted in those two cases that led to the review.

Of course, any new government brings in operational and structural changes. And I join with the noble Lady, Lady O'Neill in the fact that local authorities are dealing with the integrated care board organisations at the moment and of course, they are preparing for perhaps their biggest government, local government, reorganisation since that of Ted Heath. So, in terms of the timing, I wanted to ask the noble Lady, the minister, why it is necessary at the moment to do the structural changes to child protection arrangements, when the local authorities are dealing with other changes at the time? Local authorities, even in times of very restricted finance, have shown many of them that they have prioritised children's social care and actually, overall, England's local authorities are on an improvement journey in that the good and outstanding Ofsted inspections, as far as I understand, are increasing.

So why not wait to do any further structural changes, until the new devolution arrangements, the new local authority boundaries, are in place? And when there is more evidence, that such organisational changes, in clause three, will improve matters, rather than inadvertently potentially make matters worse. I want to join with the noble Lady, Lady O'Neill, that in relation to the culture that might be changed here, if the family health teams do not see the child protection as part of their role, that cultural embedding that has been happening over decades that are similar to a school, where what you need to embed is that safeguarding is everybody's responsibility, you might end up with them thinking it is not my responsibility, it is kind of like the blue light service over there, which is the child protection team.

We could lose inadvertently, no one is deliberately at all trying to make our child protection arrangements less effective. But I do worry about that cultural loss that everybody is seen as their responsibility, in the family help team, and through into the social workers. Could the noble Lady, the minister, please outline, why not wait until you have done your local government reorganisation? Do this afterwards? Or maybe without the same time. Because for the staff, this is an awful lot of change in

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various departments of our local authorities. My Lords, may I speak to the
13:05
Lord Meston Portrait Lord Meston (Crossbench)
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My Lords, may I speak to the amendments 36 and 40, and respectfully agree with almost everything that has been said so everything that has been said so far. An intimate 40 -- Amendment 40 concerns cases across local authority borders, which can present practical problems, and sometimes jurisdictional problems. Families, both parents and children, move around, and do not conveniently live together at the same time, in the same local authority area. Sometimes, as has been suggested, they move to avoid attention.

And there does need to be clarification about how and by whom these situations are to be dealt with. My Lords, Amendment 36 seems to be to be more fundamental. There are of course existing established arrangements focusing on Children In arrangements focusing on Children In Need. Since the Children Act 1989, these can involve child protection conferences and child protection plans. Which identify risks and assign responsibilities and expectations. It is perhaps not surprising that there are now operational concerns about the new clauses.

In particular, whether they will unnecessarily duplicate or even disrupt workable and working existing arrangements. In particular, we do need to know if the new teams provided for in these clauses will require the introduction of new personnel, in a way that will deprive the family of the continuity and familiarity established by the original social work team. It does take time for a social worker to build a relationship with a child and family. And that should not be jeopardised.

Changes per world of the children and frustrate the parents. The noble Baroness, Lady O'Neill, referred to consistency and ownership. Those are not just cliches, they are important. And they should, wherever possible, pre-preserved. -- Be preserved.

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We haven't got any amendments down in this group but I want to make a few observations. First, I think it is really, really important think it is really, really important we get this right. And we got that opportunity to do so obviously opportunity to do so obviously between committee and report stage. I have personal experience of multiagency working in terms of multiagency working in terms of child protection. And, not a great child protection. And, not a great deal, but a few cases, and the thing deal, but a few cases, and the thing that nobody has actually mentioned is that when a member of staff has is that when a member of staff has left the job or moved to another authority, the whole process grinds
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13:10
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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My Lords. As we start on of these amendments relating to the operational delivery of multiagency child protection teams, can I perhaps just respond to a few general points, therefore I go into general points, therefore I go into the details? Of the points that have been made of the amendments. First of all, with respect to the point that Baroness O'Neill made, both today and on Tuesday, I just have to say it is not true that there is no support for these arrangements amongst local authority, children's services, amongst organisations concerned about child protection and keeping children safe.

There is plenty of support. It is also not the case that this idea has somehow fallen out of the sky. In fact, the noble Baroness, Baroness Barran, gave us a good explanation of the history of this. But of course, this government, last autumn, published keeping children safe, helping families thrive, with provisions, with the provisions that are in this legislation, included within it, so there has been plenty of time, and in fact, the department has taken the opportunity to talk to a broad range of professionals and others, about how we will ensure these, all of the provisions in this bill work properly for tap and of course, the provisions in clause 3, particularly relate to the duty here protect children, with respect to the legislative arrangements around child protection.

And the experience of child protection is that too often this most difficult and crucial area of children's social work is, has been carried out by work is, has been carried out by social workers who are perhaps less experience, who are not experts necessarily in child protection, and they have had to do it without the full story of the children they are trying to protect because of the lack of strongest possible input from a range of different agencies, to create that.

-- Create that full story a child and there needs to make sure they are protected properly. I will say in respect of one of the concerns expressed by Professor Munro, which I also emphasise on Tuesday, it is not the case that these provisions downgrade the quality or the nature of social workers who will be working on child protection. There will actually increase the likelihood that the most experienced social workers will be working in the most difficult area. And we are clear that within the multiagency child protection team, that it will be a fully qualified social worker who will be responsible and there.

Equally, in family help, where the worker is dealing with a child for which there are child protection concerns, that will also be a fully qualified social worker. To turn to the detail of this, and how we got here in the first place, of course, as many noble Lords have said both today and other debate on this bill, nothing is more important than keeping children safe. Ineffective, multiagency working, is a key factor where child protection activity fails. And despite existing legislation day-to-day operations can be inconsistent and ineffective.

In their review, the child safeguarding practice review panel found that inexperienced practitioners, ineffective multiagency working, and poor multiagency working, and poor information she within and between agencies has missed opportunities to protect children. As I said, this is the situation I am sure all of us are keen to improve. Often several practitioners have information about the child and their family, but the lack of joint working means that vital opportunities are missed to protect children from serious harm, for example, the GP treating a parent for their substance misuse, a school that notices a child arriving unwashed and unfed, and the police involved in callouts for domestic abuse.

But no one has the whole picture of the day-to-day life of the child. Early results from the 10 the child. Early results from the 10 local area pathfinders for family first, a program that is embedding family help, multiagency child protection, and family group decision-making, as we discussed on Tuesday, as a single integrated system, do demonstrate better management of complex issues, reducing crisis points, and enabling quicker effective interventions where children need protection. And I hear again the calls for the publishing of the first part of the evaluation of the pathfinders, which I wholly understand.

And I hope, even if it is slightly later than spring, that will be available, I know it will be available for the development of these teams. But we are not even waiting for that. We are using already the experience of those going through the pathfinders to help to support practice in other local authority areas. Through webinars, through the opportunity to share, not just good practice, but the challenges they are finding. And the challenges they are finding. And in fact, the fact some pathfinders are finding some things difficult is precisely the point of having a Pathfinder.

It is so they can actually work out what works, where you might need to change things, how you are going to need to operationalise it, what additional support might be needed, but in this bill, we will establish multiagency child protection teams. In every local authority area. And this is a planet responds directly to recommendations made by the National Child safeguarding package review panel. This will help to assure the lack of join between services is not one of the reasons a child dies or is seriously harmed, and once again, today, some noble Lords have called today, some noble Lords have called There has already been, arguably too many people have understood the problem about the necessary change wasn't made.

That is not to say that I believe that there aren't challenges in doing it. But the sooner we start, the sooner we will be able to overcome those challenges and put in place a system that is better and safer for children. On the point about a local authority reorganisation. I was very pleased, that at the moment at which the noble lady, Baroness Berridge was making this point. My noble friend, Baroness Taylor was sitting next to me. She reassured me that in the plans of the local authority reorganisation there has already provision and great care taken to ensure that whilst long-term reorganisation is going on, short- term transition and activity are also very clearly being carried out and planned for.

And I'm afraid, whilst some people might always wish for a period of calm, in which to make any change. I have to say, in my getting on for 40 years now, a whole range of child -related services. There has never been a period of time when everything has been calm and unchanging and you could therefore safely and easily introduce meaningful change. I am not convinced that awaiting is what would best serve children, or all the professionals working in these areas, at this point.

Turning it Amendment 29 in the name of Baroness lady O'Neill. Concerning the type of support the Secretary of State will require, multiagency child protection teams, confined to the local authority, by regulations. I want to reassure laws that this power is limited, strictly limited to the provisions related to the local authorities a discharge of its duties, under section 47 of the Children Act 1989. In other words, the child protection provisions. And it is subject to scrutiny under the affirmative procedure.

In, the regulations that this government seeks to remove. In addition, the support and operational functions of these new teams will be set out in regulations, following a consultation. Informed from sector experts, safeguarding partners and evidence, as I said, from the Family First partnership program. Turning to amendment 31, about the membership of the multiagency child protection teams. I think that noble Lady, Baroness O'Neill was referring to the group of relevant agencies that are required to support and cooperate with safeguarding partners, when it comes to safeguarding and protecting children.

The bill is clear that there will be a core membership of each of the court compulsory membership of their teams. That will be a police officer, a social worker, someone with experience in education and health. Those in education and health have to have experience of working with children. I think we are coming on in a later amendments to talk about the qualifications that might be necessary, in this area. Section 16 E of the Children Act 2004 already allows a safeguarding partners to determine which relevant agency, those other than those core members that I've outlined, should be included in a safeguarding arrangements.

And under section 16 G, the such relevant agencies must act in accordance with these arrangements. The new duty regulations acknowledge the arrangements about some of these agencies may enter into, in supporting local multiagency child protection teams, to respond to local demographics and needs and harms. You can imagine, couldn't you, that in certain areas the core team, or at certain times, the core team may well decide that they have a particular need to draw on the expertise of particular, of other agencies.

And, for example, in Warwickshire, multiagency working, on child protection has been strengthened, by: location with preparation and use a justice teams. The regulations will designate the relevant agencies that they can be required to work, with a safeguarding partners, to support the teams and then the partners will be able to identify from that list of the relevant agencies appropriate for the local area and to enter into a memorandum with them. And with confidence, setting out agencies in regulations achieves the intention of this amendment, whilst maintaining flexibility, local delivery.

To respond to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan Howe, who has considerable knowledge and experience, in the leadership of policing. Where however I disagree with him is the suggestion to stop I do not think he quite thinks about this, there is no role for policing in safeguarding and protecting children. I do not think that was what he meant. And therefore, it is wholly right to consider that in order to build that full picture, of children, you would want and need to have police officers, with a particular expertise, in that type of work and my recent experience, in a children's social care was in the West Midlands, where the police of their determined that there were certain police officers who would take a specific responsibility around child protection.

I understand that different forces might want to have different ways of responding to that, but that may well be a way that police forces would respond. And on the point about accountability, which I do agree with the noble Lord is important. Whilst we are saying that there has to be representation from the police, in the team. They will remain linked to their force, local authority will not have any authority, over them. The police person is there to provide the team with the information, that they have, for example if they have been called out on a domestic abuse call, or child criminal exploitation.

They are there to help the social work and the team come to the right decision for the child. And I have to say that I would have thought, for policing, as the other agencies, getting the decision right for the child at this absolutely critical moment is frankly, although this isn't the primary reason for doing it, likely to prevent further work and damage to that child, further down the track. It feels like a worthwhile activity, for me. There is no change in accountability, between the local authority...



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Sorry to interrupt the Minister. On one point she has raised. I can On one point she has raised. I can hear the accountability point. To combine a couple of things that she combine a couple of things that she mentioned. The team can call on the right skills, at the right time, right skills, at the right time, that is obviously a major argument for this team. Skills really the for this team. Skills really the police bring, then child protection experts, they are not children experts, they are not children development experts.

The ability to development experts. The ability to investigate crime. They bring nothing else to the table here. I'm not quite sure, apart from being innately nice people, I hope, innately nice people, I hope, reasonable people. I'm not gonna say they have no skills, that is not the they have no skills, that is not the point. The professional skills they bring to the table, professional powers which are investigated by law is about how they investigate and if the team turns up and says it is your turn to see this fellow., Or this mother.

It is for the police to this mother. It is for the police to call. While I on my feet. The point that is identified about the gap in knowledge and host data that the others may not have access to. That is why we have people sat in groups, around the country as has been mentioned already. That is what they're supposed to be doing. Maybe this report, not doing it as well as they could. I'm not sure this team is going to fill the gap.

My final point in the evaluation, which I know she said, is the only data is how many children got hurt, or died. Or the development was interrupted, or that the satisfaction of the families involved was enhanced, as a result of this team's intervention. Those are the core issues. Do kids get protected more by getting hurt less? And can we prove it? The rest

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afraid is a bit soft. In my view. I wholeheartedly agree with the

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I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Lord on the finer points. That is exactly the objective of what we are trying to do here. Whether or not the evaluation, after a not the evaluation, after a relatively short period of time gives us conclusive proof about that, I would be unsure. That is that, I would be unsure. That is absolutely the objective is not working backwards, through his working backwards, through his points. I think he is right, police play a very important part in multiagency safeguarding hubs.

That multiagency safeguarding hubs. That of course is what happens at the point at which people, or other agencies, are thinking about agencies, are thinking about referring into the system. Quite often it helps to provide earlier support or more clarity about whether or not children should be being referred into the system. It is not specifically about child protection. As I was saying at the beginning, it is probably the most difficult and the most crucial point in thinking about the, the point at which the child is in the system.

And I, I am surprised at the noble Lord, because I think he under cells the point of what police officers do. He knows about the officers he was responsible for would have known when they were being called out to domestic abuse K series, when they were being, what intelligence they had about the likelihood of children are being exploited through gangs. Or in other ways. They would have known who were the people in the local authority frankly who are getting into trouble and whose children were therefore likely to be in danger.

They would have known the events that had happened, that had brought disharmony, or difficulties into communities. All of that information, they would have known who was taking drugs and who was stealing them. All of that information, you can imagine, couldn't you, the right point in this consideration of a child's case would be really, really important, forgetting that full story, about the child. That is why I think it is right that police are involved in this. The noble Baroness Lady Barran did raise the point about funding, which is a fair point.

That is why, as I have previously talked about, I will talk about again. There is more investment, for, for this initiative, that the government is putting in place. I would also, as I think I have been saying, been clear to policing, that this part of their responsibility and I think in many police forces that are recognising that. The multiagency child protection team enables that to be as effective or as possible in the way in which it is put together.

Turning to the amendments, in the name of the noble Lady Baroness Fraser. Spoken to today by the noble Lady, Baroness Anderson, which seek to include social workers with expertise in working with children, with disabilities, in a multiagency team. I absolutely agree that the team should be quick to identify and understand and respond effectively, to all children and their families. I want to reassure the noble Lady that there is, as I was describing, earlier, already sufficient flexibility for safeguarding partners to determine which social worker, health practitioners, are most suited to working these teams.

I could imagine that there would be times, when it would be appropriate to have a social worker, or a health worker expertise, in disability involved. The point is that in the legislation, I think it is important to determine, as it does on the face of the bill, who are the key compulsory members of the team. And then to have, in regulations, the other agencies, who could be called on, in order to support the multiagency drug protection team. And it just isn't appropriate to list, in a legislation, every single agency, or worker who might potentially be involved.

That doesn't mean that they would not be important. I do however recognise that disabled children and those with special educational needs have got a particular probability and it is also, with that in mind, worth noting, that statutory guidance, working together was strengthened in Act 2023 to recognise the specific needs of disabled children. Emphasising a whole family approach for support and services. Baroness Anderson also touched on the wider concern around special educational needs and disabilities in education. I can only assure her that this government is very seized of the enormously difficult position that the SEND system finds itself in a moment.

It will certainly be coming forward. Having worked with parents and others, with reforms to help us to ensure that the system, which rank isn't working well enough for families, children or their parents, and the moment, does in fact work Turning now to this amendment, she is right, there is a complex set of arrangements in children's social care, and it is important we are clear about how these new multiagency teams, with the arrangements she outlined. And the integration of course of those teams working across the safeguarding system is essential.

But as I suggested earlier, this duty is clear that new child protection teams will be distinct from other existing arrangements. For example, because they specifically support local authorities to deliver their section 47 duties under the Children Act. In other words, they are focused on child protection, they will bring expert multiagency focus to child protection concerns and swift intervention, where needed. In other words, sharp and fresh focus when a concern is raised about significant harm. And the point is that within this child protection specific area, there is not a multiagency team at the moment the day-to-day operational detail, and I recognise the noble Lady's previous experience, as well as her knowledge experience, as well as her knowledge of Mysterio life and at this -- Ministerial life and in this place.

She will understand that detail firstly will be and should be worked up in the light of consultation with those pathfinders, but also others, in the way this will best work. And will be set down in regulations and guidance. Enabling local flexibility in how these new teams fit with any existing local multiagency child and adult safeguarding system. And turning to speak to amendments 39 and 40, in the name of the noble Lady, Baroness O'Neill, and other noble Lords, who rightly wanted clarity on how areas will work together across local authority boundaries, making sure they do not lose sight of any child who needs protection from harm, but also recognising, several noble Lords did, that quite often, actually working across boundaries may well be the most effective way to deliver the service.

The Children Act 2004 allows safeguarding partners to combine for the purposes of delivering of safeguarding, delivery of safeguarding, in a local area. And in future, this will include the running of new multiagency child protection teams. But accountability is important here. These teams' primary focus is the children who are the subject of the child protection concerns. And we know, from a national and local reviews, the clarity about agency responsibility for individual children who need protection prevents serious harm. Provisions in clause three allow flexibility for safeguarding partners to combine for the purposes of multiagency child protection teams, but they require that the social worker and the education practitioner, nominated by the local authority to work on these teams, can only do so in relation to the local authority area that nominated them.

This is the right approach to take the children, and it ensures importantly the local authority has statutory responsibility for the child and continues to be accountable for that child. Even where the team covers more than one local authority. We do not want to change this at risk children slipping between the cracks. However, I do want to stress this does not prevent, as I have suggested, collaboration or consultation with other local authority areas in terms of decision-making or information. Not least because of the examples that noble Lords have used.

And it does not prevent more than one local authorities being included in a combined multiagency team, it just prevents any confusion about accountability for individual children, which is clear. I hope noble Lords are reassured, that we have considered the functions, flexibilities, and expertise for these teams carefully. We will continue to consider it as we learn from the pathfinders, as we learn from our engagement, and as we develop the regulations and for those reasons, I hope noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments.
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13:37
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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amendment 30 in my name and the name of my noble friend, Baroness O'Neill of Bexley, and Amendment 37, in my name. Amendment 30 goes to the heart of one of the three major concerns expressed to me by several directors of children's services, and I just wondered whether with the noble Baroness, the ministers, permission, we could park what feel sick. Is developing about with the directors of children's services are supportive of the aims of these reforms. I think they're all reforms.

I think they're all supportive of the aims of these reforms, certainly the once spoke to, I cannot speak to the others, the concerns we are trying to flag are that they are worried about implementation, and so, the noble Baroness the Minister, I just worry she is not hearing the whole picture, and maybe that is something she wants to explore further outside the chamber. But it isn't just those private conversations, perhaps in gentler terms, the local government Association and the ADCS of highlighted concerns in this area about the degree of discretion that local authorities will have in how they implement their new multiagency child protection arrangements.

And my amendment removes some of the prescription that is in the bill around membership. But also, I would commend to all of your Lordships interested in this area to read the Department's Family First Program Guide cunningly titled, which states very firmly that it isn't guidance, but trust me, when you read it and it keeps saying it is going to set delivery expectations, it feels quite a lot like guidance. And that document is prescriptive. So when, document is prescriptive.

So when, , talked about flexibility and so on, that program guide doesn't feel very flexible it says you must have read child protection rules. There will be the removal, in many cases, of independent chairs of child protection case conferences. It gives an overview of the reform across the whole system and I think one of the reasons, and I can no speak personally, that maybe I woke up a bit late to some of the problems with clause three, is that this is the whole system reform.

The Minister rightly referred to the document published in November, there is this document that was published in March, and there have been a number of others. And we need, as a house, to think about it in the round, even if only parts of it are in the bill. But the program guide gives a very tight timescale to direct the children's services to implement these changes. And is very clear about expectations about how the additional funding should be spent. So, I am sure the noble Lady is advised to talk about flexibility, but, if I was stretched to children services, it wouldn't feel very flexible when reading the document.

The concerns that we have heard are, I hope, addressing my amendment. But also, the spirit of my amendment is wider in its aim align autonomy and accountability. Local authorities will ultimately be held responsible for the effectiveness of the multiagency child protection teams, indeed, in part, for some of the reasons the noble Lord, Lord Hope, who is no longer in his place, expressed his remarks earlier. So, with that responsibility, surely more discretion over implementation should be permitted. And I just wonder if the noble Baroness could come in her closing remarks, address that point.

As I mentioned, the worries I heard come from some of the details set out in what I will call the FF PCG, which only those in this House will know what that means. Which risk disrupting the finely balanced approach that finely balanced approach that currently exists, with local authorities, between early help targeted support, section 17 and section 47, but it risks adding costs with the need for additional costs with the need for additional lead child protection social workers for the separate multiagency child protection arrangements.

Where are those social workers going to come from? And how will they be funded? That it risks losing the critical fresh pear revised that an independent child protection case -- Pair of eyes, currently provides. Obviously, we have seen in many cases it is important to have that independent independence from someone who is experienced and can think again about the risks that remain to a child. Those families will now have two social workers, where they are in child protection, with all of the resource and case management implications and indeed, the risks that the family play one the risks that the family play one social worker off against another.

So, rather, as my noble friend, Baroness Berridge, said, focusing on the cultural and organisational issues that make all the issues in the quality of social work, the government seems to be focusing on process and there is a risk of adding complexity, and I think there is no question that it has cost. So, is no question that it has cost. So, again, I be grateful if the -- I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could explain why. And, as has been said, what I think deserves saying it again, the real concerns there isn't sufficient evidence based and I will cover that a bit more in the following group.

Amendment 37, in my name, requires the Secretary of State to produce a report on the impact of the multiagency child protection teams. And I think this would work well if, firstly, the government publishes the evaluation of Pathfinder sites which the noble Baroness has committed that that will happen. Secondly, that it addresses any practical issues arising as she said, and I agree completely, the whole point of the pathfinders to find out what works in practice and what does not. But that timeline in the program guide says March 2025, for 12 months, local authorities are expected to have implemented the changes needed in their teams, to start these reforms from spring of next year.

So, I do not know how we address practical issues and expect them to do that transformation work with no further visibility on with no further visibility on with no further visibility on Thirdly, it makes sense, if the Government agrees with some version of my amendment 30, so that there is some discretion for the direction of children's services, in say Cumbria to implement these slightly differently from children services in say Hackney. There will be some variation in approach and it is both responsible and I would argue useful for the Secretary of State to report on this, so we reinforce a culture of learning, across the sector and support local authorities to evolve a model based on this.

I look forward to the Minister's reply. I beg to move.

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Amendments proposed, clause 3, page 3, line 27, leave out from
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13:47
Baroness O'Neill of Bexley Portrait Baroness O'Neill of Bexley (Conservative)
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happen, if it is, would be very interested to hear. If it is something which is convincing, I

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hope we can put this to bed. I rise to support my noble

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I rise to support my noble friend, Lady Barran regarding amendment 30. Element 30 builds on the previous conversation in seeking to confirm that local authorities to confirm that local authorities can use the discretions in how the multiagency child protection teams multiagency child protection teams are implemented operationally, in their areas. In addition to the their areas. In addition to the contributions previously made about pilots and having the information pilots and having the information about those pilots. I want to make two very good reasons for why I think it is imperative to ensure that it is local decision-making, will become effective.

That is how there can be confusion over legal there can be confusion over legal accountability and how the bill could weaken local authority could weaken local authority leadership. Statutory responsibility for safeguarding will still rest with local authorities. As has previously been said. The partnerships all the multiagency teams. If all functions, a local agency within a multiagency team, it may become unclear who is ultimately accountable. Especially in the case of a serious case review procedures. As was referred to previously, currently, DfE guidance working together in 2023 emphasises other while functions can be delegated, accountability cannot transferred from top I have previously referred to the issue of budgets from other departments, especially police and health and how that might impact their involvement.

We also need to consider the fact that all agencies. In my area, police under leadership and the Mayor of London, a borough relationship, the NHS is 86 borough relationship. I quite often will get notices from the police that will identify a child in Lewisham and I have to say to my team, is there a connection to Bexley? There is a potential confusion there, of course with that confusion comes the ownership. This could create issues. Not least returning the ownership but the cost around it.

The other risk week local authority leadership. Over consolidation into multiagency spaces could disempower directors of children's services, or indeed the lead members as we have been part of. Who are statutory been part of. Who are statutory leads to safeguarding. There is a risk of fragmentation, fragmenting governments. It is for those reasons it would seem sensible to entrust the local authority to use their discretion in how the multiagency child protection teams were implemented, locally, in their own area. I support my noble friend.
13:49
Baroness Spielman Portrait Baroness Spielman (Conservative)
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I am standing to speak in particular to support amendments at 37, put forward by my noble friend, Baroness Barran. For several reasons. First, she has spoken and others have spoken about the enormous amount of change that is being imposed on the sector, both in structures, currently and prospectively with local government reorganisation and with many processes and through these reforms. And I do think that we have now heard from enough people, here and outside, to think that there is good reason to be concerned about poor decision-making, arising from the blurring of early help, targeted support, children in need and child protection.

There are potentially parallels with the SEMD reforms, a few years ago where a new model was expected to simplify and reduce costs and reduce numbers in the cistern and has actually sadly done the opposite. Other points that have sadly been done about the blurring of accountability. Again, I think there is reason to be concerned. I observed I was part of a national implementation board, post the care review and I will say that I was struck, in that process, more than most government processes that I've been involved with, that many people seem to find it hard to say what they really thought to Ministers, perhaps pull punches a little bit.

I think it is incredibly important to make sure that there is a report that all can see that is really transparent about how these reforms are working in practice. are working in practice.

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So, we come onto a bit more understandable consideration of how understandable consideration of how the teams will work, in practice and the teams will work, in practice and particularly with respect to local authority responsibility.
13:52
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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authority responsibility. Multiagency child protection teams will only be effective, if they are truly multiagency. There is an understandable concern here about the role of, the significance of the role of local authorities. It probably also is worth remembering, as in fact we discussed, on Tuesday, safeguarding partners, local authorities, health and police do have a joint and equal responsibilities for safeguarding, in legislation. And what we're trying to do, through multiagency child protection teams, is to ensure that in day-to-day and operational terms, with respect to individual children's cases, there is a practical way for those responsibilities, the information that those agencies may have had to be brought together.

As I say in that full picture about the child. I spoke earlier, about the findings, from the child safeguarding, practice review panel. Into child protection. To tackle the issues that they identify. We do, as I suggest a need multiagency experts, in a room together, sharing information and bringing their different perspectives to decisions that protect children. It is important that we ensure the right people are deployed, to those teams, so the experts a swift and decisive action is taken to protect children and we recognise the importance of safeguarding partners reporting on the impact of the arrangements, to make sure that this is happening.

And of course, we do need to base that, as has been the argument in other parts of this bill, so far, on the best possible evidence, which is both the professional work that constituted both the child safeguarding practice review, panel review and also, as others have mentioned, the independent review by my honourable friend, Josh McCallum, Josh Mac Allister. We also need the evaluation that other nebulas have spoken about. I will say that it will come in at more than one stage.

There will be both the evaluation of the process, some of the practicalities of setting up process, which the noble Baroness, Lady Barran reference. And also, later, about the impact of the teams. Turning to speak to amendment 30, in the name of the noble Lady, Baroness Barran, which seeks local discretion in multiagency team membership. And organisation. Requiring a safeguarding partners to nominate a minimum team reflects partners collective duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of children, in their area.

They will also have, as I outlined in the previous group, they will also have flexibility to add other agencies, or individuals reflecting on her needs and to tackle local harms. We know, from families first Pathfinders these teams are already making a real difference in the recent OFSTED inspection, one of the Pathfinders received an outstanding judgement and when children are at risk of significant harm, strategy meetings are well attended by partner agencies. Effective information sharing and analysis of risk lead to children receiving the right intervention and support.

It is right that we celebrate the success and learning from Pathfinders. And of course, learning, as I suggested, previously from where things a bit more challenging. And on the point about resourcing, for this, as I said, also, I think on Tuesday, this transformation journey is being supported, from £500 million families first partnership program, funding. On a couple of specific points, made by the noble Lady, Baroness Barran. A point about whether or not this is doing away whether or not this is doing away with a independent chair.

One of the main purposes of the multiagency child protection teams is to have a fresh pair of eyes come in at the point of the section 47 inquiry. And the new leader child protection practitioner role will work, in fact is working, in Pathfinders, in a very similar way, as the current independent chairs do. I take her point about the need for a fresh view of independence, that is built into the design of the teams. On the point about whether or not this will mean children having more than one social worker, children and families will stay rooted in a family help, throughout.

The multiagency child protection teams will need, the child protection, functions, working with and wrapping support around children, families and the family help need practitioner. The multiagency child protection team brings expertise and a fresher focus on significant harm. The leader child protection practitioner will be an experienced social worker and will not be the case lead. In other words, the importance, ongoing relationship, but I know that children feel so strongly about, with respect to the person that they can understand and work with and gain a relationship, will remain in place here.

There will be additional expertise brought to this, from the multiagency child protection team. On amendment 37, which places a requirement on the face of the bill, for the Secretary of State to report annually on the teams impact and activities. I completely agree with the noble Lady, Baroness Barran and in fact with the noble Lord, Lord Addington. It is essential that we understand how multiagency teams are leading to better outcomes, for children. And that this learning is a shared across the system.

That being said, safeguarding partners already have a statutory responsibility, to publish annual reports on the multiagency, safeguarding arrangements. This will include reporting on multiagency child protection teams, once at the teams come into force. Statutory guidance, working together to safeguard children, already sets out the information that should be included in the yearly reports. And that will include evidence of impact. And guidance will be updated to meet the reporting requirements, for these are new multiagency teams. There will be, A-level which it really matters, a responsibility, both to accounts and report for the specifics of the safeguarding arrangements.

And on that basis, and with those assurances, I hope that the noble Baroness Wolf are able to withdraw her remembrance. withdraw her remembrance.
13:59
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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I would like to thank, warmly all those who contributed to this short debates. And, in particular to my noble friend, Baroness O'Neill for her very practical examples of how it works, on the grounds and the very reasonable concerns that she and colleagues have about these reforms. If I'm honest, I am just worried when I listen to the noble Baroness that there is so much confirmation bias in her remarks.

That this is going to work exactly as we all would wish. I would be the first to admit I am a wrong if that turns out to be the case. The most big, gated reforms, like this, do not go exactly as planned. Some things get better and something died. I hope the Government keeps an died. I hope the Government keeps an In terms of some of the remarks that she made, she talked about feedback from the pathfinders and I think she cited Dorset as having just received outstanding.

My understanding, she will correct me if I am wrong, is that pathfinders are all very strong areas. They were chosen because they are strong and they have the capacity. So, leaving aside the much trodden argument about where is the evaluation. Actually, whereas the testing in areas that are not as strong. It -- And maybe she would like to say a word about that because that has not yet happened. And in relation to the point about independent shares, and I am not sure if it is still the same director of children's services, but there was an article on community care at the end of 2023, where, in relation to this, the director of children's services in Dorset said they were testing this out in one of its localities, as a Pathfinder, adding " The authority was not sure it was the greatest idea in the Pathfinder program.

While we were testing it out, we will have one of our quality assurance professionals in the meeting to offer security, independence and to make sure the parent voice is heard in that meeting.", so maybe it is all running as smoothly as the noble Baroness suggests, or maybe it is not. And I would also be grateful she has cited ornate of occasions the figure of 500 million funding, which of course is correct but can she confirm that within that, 290 million is new money.

That is predominantly for the early help function, rather than multiagency child protection, but I may have misunderstood that last balance incorrectly. So, perhaps in a later group, she will have a chance to feedback on that. In relation to amendment 30. I think one can argue in both directions, these agencies already have statutory responsibilities. And they already work together in a multiagency way, as we have heard in multiple different fora around the country. And while a child protection focuses obviously imperative, I don't argue with that at all.

I think it is an artificial argument to suggest, and I am not saying this is what the noble Lady was saying, but just to be clear, I don't think you can just say that support for high risk victim of domestic abuse or work with the perpetrator of domestic abuse doesn't have an impact on the safety of the child. I know the noble Lady understands that it does. But the risk of putting one bit of the system kind of locked down in this way and what the ramifications are for the other parts that are already working, I think, is at the root of our concern.

In relation to having a report, the noble Lady said we have the reports where it matters, I think is what she said. At the individual local authority level. My amendment was not suggesting that those reports should be lost. I am sure they serve a very important purpose. But this is a system level change, and therefore, I am surprised that the noble Lady isn't more open to an opportunity to have system level, dare I say, critical thinking, like we are going

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to introduce into the curriculum. But with that, my Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my amendments. Is it your Lordships pleasure the

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Is it your Lordships pleasure the amendment be withdrawn? The amendment is by leave withdrawn. Amendment 31, Baroness O'Neill, not moved. Amendment 32, Baroness
14:05
Baroness O'Neill of Bexley Portrait Baroness O'Neill of Bexley (Conservative)
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moved. Amendment 32, Baroness Fraser, not moved. In clause three, amendment 33, Baroness O'Neill.

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My Lords, I rise to move amendment 33. This amendment aims to leave discretion about the qualifications of those involved in the multiagency child protection the multiagency child protection teams, to the relevant agency teams, to the relevant agency responsible. It also aims for clarity around whether the Secretary of State might lift the requirement qualifications in this work. My Lords, the previous contributions Lords, the previous contributions have seen and sought flexibility for those responsible for the safety of our young people, and this amendment our young people, and this amendment follows that theme.

The Minister has thankfully given us some reassurance earlier, and I hope this will be continued. My Lords, life changes, the areas won't always be the same. the areas won't always be the same. There needs to be some local discretions, and one would hope, that he wouldn't be -- It wouldn't be to perspective. When considering the needs of those, we to consider what already exists and if change needs to happen, from what base, there needs to be the fifth ability for those who are part of the pro--- Flexibility for those as part of the processes.

If it undermines local innovation, which we all know is important, as well as workforce development. Consideration will also need to be given to the relevant qualifications of all members of the teams, those in other agencies, and if it is to be the responsibility of the local area to arrange their child protection services, then they will need to consider who is part of the multiagency child protection team, and the qualifications of those members. I move the amendment.
14:07
Baroness Berridge Portrait Baroness Berridge (Conservative)
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Amendment proposed, clause three,

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page 4, leave outlines eight-11. My Lords, I write to support the amendment, particularly the amendment, particularly the amendment regarding clause three and its presence in the bill. I have known the noble Lady to be a listener, and at committee stage, it is entirely the time we have to do is entirely the time we have to do that. The noble Lady, the Minister, mentioned what we need to solve is mentioned what we need to solve is the lack of joint working.

I think nobody would disagree, and nobody would data say, the multidisciplinary team work for child protection is the way to do it. But there is, I believe Guy genuine concerns about whether the functions as outlined in clause three is the way to achieve that. three is the way to achieve that. So, when I first read that the review recommendation and the description of multiagency child protection teams, I have not yet come up with an acronym I can pronounce quickly enough, I thought pronounce quickly enough, I thought that would be an oversight mechanism akin to the independent Chair of the child protection cases.

But it seems to me the understanding out there with certain practitioners is that it could be an investigative$$JOIN /operational mechanism. I thought it was a mechanism, that oversight will you put everybody together, he was involved with that particular case, can ensure everyone in the room has every thing they need to know, there is no gaps in the information. At the understanding that is out there and that has been communicated is that actually, in fact, what could be happening here is the duplication of the investigative function, that when the social worker who has maybe had a very sensitive disclosure made to them, usually after many months of knowing the child, gaining the confidence, when there is this new system, what is understood to the noble Lady, the Minister come out there, is that there can be a transfer at that moment to a different social worker to take over the investigative role.

That is the understanding that is there. That obviously would be adjudication of -- A duplication of resource and a severing of the relationship that that child has brought. Now currently, as I understand it, the multidisciplinary team investigation is basically built around the lead expert social worker who then draws in, at casework level, the health, benefits, housing, the police interview and then there is oversight of that by the independent Chair. Of course, a child that has already disclosed if there is any change of that function may decide, no, I cannot disclose to somebody else.

And then maybe that loss of trust and actually adding to that trauma. So, inadvertently, it could be the arrangements were put in place in clause 3 that everyone is intending to aid joint working of all the different agencies could actually have opened up new cracks in the system. So, while we have seen and we are aware of these tragic failings that have led to the McAllister review, it is important to remember how foundational the Children Act, which has stood the test of time, is, and is understood by practitioners and has obviously been built on particularly in 2004.

Many of our outstanding local authorities aren't just chosen to be Pathfinder places, they are visited by many European countries to see how have you embedded over many decades child protection systems that are, I mean, I know we find it hard to believe, but are the envy of some other countries. So, what how would like to know is where is the adequate evidence to support the change? Yes, there was a recommendation in the McAllister review, but where is the adequate evidence that we have previously used to make changes to our child protection system.

I know the pathfinders will be publishing soon. But are these actually what we would usually understand to be operational pilots. Where is the rigorous academic research which has so often been the evidential basis for previous changes over many decades to support changes to our child protection system. So, whilst clause 3 may seem logical, and it may seem at principle that it will work, could actually open up different problems. Could the noble Lady, the minister, a Greek if she has not already done so, because she said there is evidence out there to support these changes, to meet with the director of children's services, who advise the McAllister review.

With Eileen Munro and other concerned academics, and the DCSs outstanding local authorities who are concerned, these are the practitioners who are going to have to implement this. I feel as if the noble Lady, the Minister, who talked of the nobility, the colleague at the Department of Health, this was precisely the issue of the Mental Health Bill, were there approved mental health professionals behind this change, are the children's services behind this change? While I know the Minister is passionate about adoption and fostering, the review was not shared by somebody who was an expert in deciding protection cases, operationally doing child protection cases, that is why I very much wish the noble Lady, the Minister, could meet with that type of expert, and reassure your Lordships house that these practitioners support this.

Though everyone here intends close three to help, -- Clause three to help, I have, as required here, think what would be the situation? If the expert concerned, it might not be everything an expert, but the experts that have got concerned about ill intended consequences proved to be right. If a child discloses sexual harm and then loses confidence with a switch of social worker, or the multiagency team coming in, and now will not talk, and the mums partner, as it usually often is, senses that something is changing with the child, something that psychologically affects individuals, and then that person harms the child to shut them up, what kind of report will be coming back from the local authority from the child safeguarding panel to the Department of education? It will not Department of education? It will not be DCS.

It is the responsibility of them that their systems weren't working. If their concerns are valid, it very well could be the report that comes back is we advise you not to make this kind of statutory change and you didn't this statutory change and you didn't this is what happened. I would not want anybody to be in that situation that inadvertently, whilst trying to improve the system with experts advising that there could be unintended consequences, that we don't take time to pause and make sure that this recommendation is supported by adequate evidence, before it is implemented.

before it is implemented.
14:14
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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My Lords, I rise to standard to... To explain my notice of my intention to oppose that clause three stand part of the bill and in doing so, I support amendment 33 in the name of my noble friend, Baroness O'Neill. I would like to thank my noble friend, Baroness Berridge, for her support, for her very practical suggestion to the Minister to meet with those practitioners and experts that my noble friend suggested. And I very much hope when the Minister comes to close her remarks that she will be able to say that she will have such able to say that she will have such To be clear, once again I do not oppose clause 3 because I doubt the value of the multiagency response, in child protection.

Nor do I doubt for a second the importance of help for families. But, the government's program guide, for the families first partnership seems to have an first partnership seems to have an Have space, in it to absorb some of the concerns that my noble friend mentioned and which I have mentioned, on several occasions, in your Lordships' House. The guide says, and I quote, "Changes to service structure, practice frameworks, oversight arrangements, will require time to design and implement.

" So much everyone in agreement. It goes on. " The next agreement. It goes on. " The next year April, 2025, forgive me I said March in an earlier remark. April 2025 to March 2026 will feature ongoing business as usual delivery, alongside transformation activities. alongside transformation activities. " The thing that is easy to write down and harder to deliver in real life. It is crucial that reform is multiagency and implemented effectively, with improving the safety and well-being of children at its heart.

There is a clear expectation that the transformational work will be completed, by March 2026. And indeed, the funding that has been given to local areas, 30% of it, I think it says in here is expected to be spent on that transformation work. So, in earlier groups, I referred to 3 main concerns, that are held, by many, who will be responsible for implementing these changes, including, although she is not responsible for implementation, Professor Munro, in her letter on Monday, to the times.

And, indeed, from the LCS and the LGA. If I may, the noble Lady Baroness Scotland in her place, we worked together for many years, 20 years ago, on a summer this multiagency staff and it was a little less popular than it is today. It is very good to see the noble Lady here. So, turning to the evidence from the ADC S and the LGA. In the evidence of the Public Bill Committee and the other place. The LGA wrote, every local authority area will have a duty to establish multiagency child protection units.

Using integrated local authority led teams, staff are multiagency experienced child protection practitioners. This is my emphasis, not theirs. We recognise the potential value in this approach. There are concerns around resourcing, both financial and staff. Across all partners, and urged the Government to enable councils to be flexible, and how they design these units, to ensure they can build on local strengths. Additional funding will be needed to implement this duty, recognising the need to design and adapt, to new ways of working.

There must also be clear accountability for all partners, in relation to their roles in these teams. Ensuring that sole responsibility does not lie with councils, for their creation and success. Similarly, the British Association of Social Workers road, England supports good multiagency collaboration, believes that the mandating multiagency teams risks undermining the social work's role and safeguarding principles. With again, my emphasis there is little or no evidence to support this, as an effective door. We emphasise investment in early help, relationship-based practice and clarity, or professional priorities, to prevent detrimental impacts on children's rights under social work retention.

We also believe that greater clarity is needed on the remit structure, governance of these teams and remain concerned they are being mandated prior to full evaluation. The noble Lady doesn't need to listen to me, that she could comment on those concerns. They go on to say, additionally we note the pilot areas receive a significant funding, to implement the model and see clarity on whether similar levels of funding will be provided to support all local authorities, in implementing this model.

So again, the funding, I looked again, as in Britain, in the program guide appears to do the early part held, rather than child protection teams. It would be good to get clarity on that. The first of the three major concerns is about scale. This is a huge change and as I said, in earlier remarks, I think many of us and certainly I can speak for myself, underestimated this. So much of this sits outside of the bill and the program guide and the other guidance of the noble Lady referred to.

Clause 3 needs to be seen together with the changes to early together with the changes to early help, child help and the response to children under section 17 of the children act, as noble friend, Baroness Berridge said. Which is set out in various bits of guidance, now running, I am told several hundred pages and funding announcements, published this year. By the department. The Government must remember that safeguarding, from early universal help to child protection care proceedings is like a carefully woven or embroidered cloth and if you pull on one thread, you do need to understand how it will affect all of the others.

And as other noble Lords have said, this is happening, at a time of message change in local authorities and in Integrated Care Boards, and I was told the other day and maybe the noble Lord can lady can confirm, the new blueprint for the ICBs that is circulating in draft, includes a reduction in their response, in relation to safeguarding and SEND. Maybe the noble Baroness of the Minister can confirm if that is correct. And if so, how do these reforms, in clause 3 and in the program guide, how do they work? In real life? The second big concern is to C, we have heard that there isn't yet the evidence that the proposed approach will work safely, in practice.

The valuation hasn't been published, implementation problems haven't yet been addressed. And, we have, what feels like a very prescriptive program guides, which have a timeline, budget, scrutiny of the number of social workers, vs family has helped staff that local authorities would employ and I understand the government's own sense of urgency. Absolutely, I think I understand the conflict between wanting to act and wanted to be the head, but I suppose I do not understand what feels like resistance to what I believe are very valid concerns.

So, if I take some of the things that have been said, publicly, at the end of 2023, about the Pathfinder areas, by those, involved. The first is about the role of the lead child protection practitioner. There are worries about staff burnout, if someone is a sole role of those section 47 cases. It is a clear requirement, in the program guide. Second concern that has come out, publicly, as been about the deskilling of colleagues, if all that child protection expertise sits in that team.

And, as I said earlier, the worries about independent case conference share. There are also, ironically, because I know that the honourable member for Whitehaven and Worthington expressly wanting to reduce this, worries about case handovers. The move from the lead family health practitioner, to a new leader child protection practitioner, at a moment of significant stress, as the case meets the section 47 threshold. What was said, publicly, at that time, which is now 18 or so months ago, is that areas addressing those, by keeping the lead family harbour practitioner involved in the case.

That obviously increases cost and again this is unchanged in the program guide. I baked the houses leave and patience with me, in going into this detail. The noble Baroness the Minister has heard of private conversations, I am just trying to articulate them also in public we have had a serious concerns expressed. And those don't seem to have been picked up in the guidance that has come up. Thirdly, this needs funding properly, both of the early help duties and the new child protection teams.

The Pathfinders got significant funding and I and told that certainly, from one direct children's services, they had to pay the multiagency partners to attend. So, to take the words of one DCS I spoke to, changes in child protection and need to be thoughtful and evidenced. The concern that the proposed merging of targeted, non- social work led work with the section 17 will lead to a ballooning in case numbers as my noble friend, Baroness Berridge said, similar to what we have seen with SEND.

Ultimately that risks translating into more children in the care system, not less. Something that none of us want to see. So no one is suggesting that our system is perfect, but in her 2011 report, the then Secretary of State, my noble friend, my very recent noble friend, Lord Gove, Professor Monro warned against too much focus on process over quality and effectiveness of help given and today 14 years later, the DCS is telling me that the DfE's approach to these reforms is all about process and not about practice.

I could add other questions about referral criteria and capacity of membership, special educational needs, unaccompanied asylum seeking children. There are all sorts of questions that are worthy of debate. And for today just want to focus on those three. This is a huge set of changes the government is introducing into our system. We do not have the evidence of, and enough evidence of how it works in practice and there isn't sufficient funding, or indeed any visibility on funding, beyond next year, to pay for this.

So to be crystal clear, we support the aspiration to expand early help and early intervention to stop we support the aspiration. Every child and every family, who needs it should get support. We introduced the Pathfinder approach, for good reason. We needed to test it out in practice, listen to the evidence, follow it, I just cause and identify the necessary long-term funding, before national rollout. We have a system that currently involves a clear boundary between voluntary help and imposed state intervention.

The DfE has been drip feeding guidance on the new early help arrangements. I am told almost on a daily basis, which is at risk of blowing that boundary. That has the potential to create huge confusion, between what parents must do and what they are advised to do. This is just one example of why it is so important for the Government to pause and get this right. Our worry is that the Government was to press ahead before it is ready.

To be clear, directors of children's services tell me they think children will be harmed if these reforms are implemented to early and without sufficient funding. They do not say those things likely. The language they have used is to implement before we are ready, we risk putting children in danger. The Government must listen to them, must meet with them, as my noble friend suggests and with Professor Monro. Surely, surely, the responsible thing is to pause, My Lords, I beg to move move.
14:29
Lord Storey Portrait Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)
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I just want to make a few observations in this debate. I start by saying this is not my natural area of expertise. I did say, on amendment one that it was important that when we make a change, when we propose to make a change and we run a pilot, that pilot is there, if you like, the lodestone of future development. I am concerned, T- Levels, and the first of all Levels, and the first of all concerned about the comments that, Professor Monro made.

Perhaps Baroness Barran will answer me this. We frequently talk about directors have told you. Is this one director, five director, professional association for stop you cannot influence, important discussions like that, by saying the directors of said. We need to know who they are. The number of them. I could equally quote directors who have spoken to me who have had a different opinion. I just think we have to be careful about that. You

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can talk to me afterwards. For the benefit of the House,. I

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For the benefit of the House,. I have spoken personally to 4 directors, three directors of children's student, one deputy director. I have encouraged some of director. I have encouraged some of my colleagues to talk to their local director of student services. I director of student services. I really would like to stress, I was really would like to stress, I was surprised at the response. I did not ring up and say tell me about all ring up and say tell me about all the problems with the bill.

I rang up and said, I'm responding on up and said, I'm responding on behalf of his Majesty's opposition and I always prefer to talk to someone who is directly affected, someone who is directly affected, before I just give my views, which may not be honest. It was an prompted response. I think it is for them to decide if they wish to speak privately, to Ministers, rather than for me to say at the dispatch box. If the noble Lord has spoken to others who say something different, I am sure it is helpful for the I am sure it is helpful for the

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I have only spoken to one director, I wouldn't want to report what the director said, might give what the director said, might give the wrong impression. Baroness Berridge rightly said that our child Berridge rightly said that our child protection was the envy of the world. And I think she is right to world. And I think she is right to say that. But that doesn't mean we are complacent about the fact that we have really good child protection procedures.

Any policies, any system, you constantly have to look system, you constantly have to look at, you constantly have to change, you concert have to improve and make you concert have to improve and make it better. -- You constantly have to improve and make it better. And I am impressed with children being at the heart of everything we do. When we had the question on media literacy, the Minister rightly said, when I rather cheekily said what is the government's number one priority, she said child protection.

And that is symptomatic of how we as a house react. So, when we want to make react. So, when we want to make detailed changes, we do have to do, and you cannot stand still, but when we make detailed changes, we have to make sure those changes are absolutely right. We pilot them, we learn from that piloting perhaps. Had what we have learned, we perhaps go away and change, we perhaps adapt, and we have to make the resources available.

I am particularly concerned about qualifications, because I think qualifications are the hallmark of, qualifications are the hallmark of, if you like, safety. You wouldn't want a plumber to come to your house who hadn't got any qualifications implement, you wouldn't want an electrician to come along to your house with electrical wiring who hadn't got the qualifications. So, in child safety, you want to make sure that those people who are around that table are absolutely qualified to hear the judgements and opinions to protect the children.

So, I hope that when the Minister replies, for somebody who says they are not an expert in this area of work, she might simply spell out for me why she was to make those changes, and why she is not taking the advice of somebody who clearly is an expert and knows what they're talking about, and is actually then, probably through frustration, how to write a letter to The Times and explained to them.
14:35
Baroness Longfield Portrait Baroness Longfield (Labour)
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If I might add a few thoughts from my experience. As children's Commissioner for six years, the level of responsibility is the greatest around children and care. And I looked in detail at the experience of children in care throughout their time, one of the things that was absolutely clear to me is the ability of local authorities to focus on intervention diminished hugely during that diminished hugely during that period. The amount spent on early intervention halves during that period, while the amount spent on crisis doubles.

And you do not need to be a great mathematician to realise the more you spend on crisis, the less you have an early intervention, and at the heart of Judge McAllister's review and recommendations, which were incredibly and extensively consulted on with people at all levels, from expert practitioners, leaders of children's services, and care experienced people themselves, was that we had to move and reset the system towards early intervention, and do so boldly in a timely manner.

Because it was just unsustainable for the public purse to do anything As important if not more important was that children were being left without support. So, everyone needs to be alert at any time about the consequences of any move towards increasing harm for children, but what we know over time is that more children are coming to harm now because they aren't getting back support early. So, it is absolutely essential, that there is an urgency about that. Those doubts of children's services, as I said, that I speak to, want to see that change urgently.

And are very much in line with the proposals that are being put forward. There will always be things that doubts of children's services will want to amend locally and test out, that is absolutely right. What they want to know is that there is a framework nationally for them to work within and that clear guidance. So, I think that is why it is so important this is here. That is not to say that those individuals would have their own expertise in delivering. I think just the other thing to say is that when we have got experts involved in delivering these expert practitioner roles, actually, we are going to use the judgement all the time for supper here is not going to be about process, it has to be about children and families.

Anyone who wishes following a process because the process is there is not the expert practitioner in that role, that we have got that ambition for, they are going to be looking at children's lives, responding to individuals, but at the heart of it, we have to move boldly forward, sorry about that one! I apologised for that on many levels. We have to move forward at pace, but also with confidence and determination while also checking along the way that we are giving support where it is needed.

I'm just a final one about the -- And a final one about needing the investments there, of course we need that, but we have to get to the point where we are investing money to prevent, rather than, again, to pay those costly bills when things I have gone to acute state -- When things have got to acute status.
14:39
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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So, we are now in group 3, on multiagency child protection teams. As I have already said, these teams seek to address the problems we repeatedly see when children are , including poor information sharing, weak decision-making, based on single service perspectives, and an experienced social workers, without the support, knowledge, and experience needed to make tough decisions, and to ensure Children and Families Act get the support that they need. Dror to ensure children and families get the support they need.

One of the teams this is already being delivered in is Warwickshire, and before that point, I could also respond to the point made in the previous group by the noble Lady, Baroness Barran, about the pathfinders, actually, to out of the pathfinders are not good or outstanding, they are in fact required in improvements, so that was wrong. In Warwickshire, they have reported to the Department the lowest number of children on child protection plans since July 2023, and that reduction is attributed to a more efficient and targeted approach by the multiagency team.

Ensuring the right children are getting the right intervention at the right time, and crucially, as early as possible. In the system. And I do think that my noble friend, Baroness Longfield, made a very important point about the nature of the objectives of the whole of this reform encompassed in this bill. And in the policy paper that I referenced earlier. And the objective here is to shift support for children much earlier into the process. And where it is necessary for there to be interventions, section 47, child protection intervention, that that is carried out, one about the most experienced and senior social workers, and that they are supported by a team that brings together the whole range of different agencies that may well have information about the child.

That is the objective here. With this in mind, I turned to amendment 33, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady O'Neill of Bexley, which seeks to leave discretion about the qualifications of persons nominated to teams and seeks clarity on the qualifications prescribed through regulations. Setting out clear requirements for the skills, knowledge and qualifications of multiagency child protection team members, ensures a consistent national standard. And expectations of practitioners making decisions that protect our most vulnerable children. These children deserve this level of consistency.

And in fact, qualification, a point I think made by the noble Lord, Lord Storey. As I have said, we know from national reviews, those on the frontline of complex child protection do not always have the support and experience that they need. We are determined to change that through regulations that will accompany this legislation. And the point about regulations here is important and I will come back to it again in responding to clause stand part debate. I think we all know as parliamentarians, that while it is important that primary legislation set out the intent at the design and the most important elements of legislative change, operational duties detail is best suited to regulators, where there is more flexibility to accommodate developments in sector standards, for example, if new evidence emerges.

This good practice could be reflected in the regulations. We are working with other government departments and will publicly consult these regulations. Before bringing them one parliament scrutiny. Before the amendments tabled by the noble Lady, Baroness Barran, well, in fact, the scepticism expressed concern expressed about the whole of clause three, perhaps I could just start by quoting the Chair of the National Child safeguarding review panel. Annie Hudson. And it was of course a recommendation of this panel has led to the development of this legislation here.

And I would just say, I think there has been an important discussion about the need to enable them to be sufficient time for appropriate implementation. But, when you have very clear recommendations as we have here, as I will demonstrate in a moment, I do think it is beholden of governments to take action on the basis of that for some yes, to ensure the implementation is right, but as this government has done, to set out the ambition of the reform necessary in children's social care, in order to achieve both the strategic change that my noble friend was talking about, and also to overcome some of the shortcomings we have sadly seen evidenced in recent cases.

That is what this legislation is aiming to do. As the Chair of the National do. As the Chair of the National Child safeguarding review panel said " In my time as Chair of the Child safeguarding practice review panel, I have seen reviews about several thousands of serious incidents, where children have died or been seriously harmed as a result of abuse or neglect. It is learning from those incidents and most particularly, the repeated lack of join up between agencies, that led to the panel's recommendation, in our report Child Protection in England, about the tragic deaths of Arthur Labinjo- Hughes and Star Hobson, to introduce multiagency child protection teams.

High-quality social work is critical to effective child protection, but we must also draw on the expertise of practitioners from across the different provisions and agencies, including police, health and education, to meet the complex safeguarding needs of some children and families. The need for multiagency child protection teams was also clearly evidenced in our recent national review about child sexual abuse in the family environment. This review found that once concerns have been raised, too often there was a lack of thorough child protection investigation, and effective action to protect and help children.

This was in part due to silo working across agencies, and inadequate multiagency exploration and sharing of concerns that and sharing of concerns that children may be at risk." We do, in many ways, is a nobody, Baroness Berridge said, have excellent Berridge said, have excellent services in this country, we certainly have excellent and committed staff, working within a children's social care, but when we see recommendations like this coming from investigations of times when the system tragically failed to work properly, I think it is important for us to take notice of that and make progress as quickly as This bill includes several measures which will improve the safeguarding and child protection.

Including strengthening information sharing, through unique identify is, which will come onto in a moment. The establishment of multiagency child protection teams which will provide children with a timely, sensitive, skilled and coherent response. We do have, there has been a challenge, particularly from a Baroness Barran about the extent we are clear about how these fit together. I have here, which I'm more than happy to share. A slide which shows exactly how they fit together.

That is based on the work that we have done, already. I'm very happy to share with other noble Lords. The argument we set out in the policy paper, last autumn. Let me be absolutely clear. Every child deserves to be protected, from harm. Legislative these teams will take a significant step closer to making sure action is coordinated to protect every child from every harm, whether that is inside, or outside the home. To come to the point, the reasonable point that has been made by noble Lords about the detail of the implementation.

Although, not, as I think I have just outlined the principle of the change that is being made. Of course it is important for us to be able to work, alongside practitioners, leaders of children's social care, experts in the field. In order to ensure that the implementation of this recommendation is actually what we would hope it would be for children. That is where, once again it is important to note that clause 3 allows the Secretary of State to set out in regulations the day-to-day operations of multiagency, child protection teams.

The requirements of the members and the relevant agencies, which would be required to cooperate as a safeguarding partners. I remind noble Lords that this approach means that the sector, local partners, experts, pathfinder areas, national experts, DCS is, many of those mentioned today can all inform how these teams will work, in reformed systems. What is more the affirmative procedure will bring further scrutiny to these regulations as well. As well. I will respond to the point by noble Lady so Baroness Berridge and I think Baroness Barran as well.

This handover, or this suggestion the there will be two social workers, which are responded to previously. I will just take that a bit further now. There is no duplication of roles in what is being proposed. It is about an integrated system. Keeping children's relationships, family help and practitioners is really important. As I outlined previously. Family practitioners will be qualified social workers, we are completely clear about that. Child protection expertise, through the multiagency teams, around that.

The family help lead practitioner will be a key part of the child protection discussion. It is all about information sharing and joint decision making. So, I hope I can provide some reassurance that we are, not only have we built these proposals and recommendations for people who have looked very carefully at the system and at the most tragic failures of the system. We are also continuing to build the implementation, on the basis of ongoing engagement, with experts and others, throughout the system.

And what is more, that those regulations will come, before this House, under the affirmative procedure. There will be further scrutiny available there. Finally, in the group, I turn to speak to members of 508 and 509, in the name of Lady Barran, to speak about the issue of shared responsibility of the safeguarding partners. I'm not sure if she gave much emphasis to this in her contribution. It is in the amendment. I will also respond to the point about funding and resource.

I have, as has been noted, previously, and will continue, I have no doubt, to talk about the £500 million we have made available in 2025/2026 to support the national rollout. Yes, the family help, child protection and family network reforms. And to confirm, yes, out of that 500 million, of that 270 is a new funding, in the children's social care prevention grant, for this work. And we will of course be making further announcements, about some of this work, after the spending review, expected in June which will confirm funding beyond 2026.

And under the existing duties, safeguarding parties already agreed to dedicate resource, as part of their local multiagency safeguarding arrangements. Clause 3 provides flexibility for safeguarding partners and how they meet this new duty, to establish multiagency child protection teams. It does provide the flexibility that noble Lords have asked for, including through combining teams across local authority boundaries, to align with police or health footprints, creating consistencies and deficiencies. Although it is clear on this point about responsibility safeguarding partners are each responsible for nominating a representative to the multiagency team and they have equal responsibility for safeguarding, as responsibility for safeguarding, as they spelt out, earlier.

I hope, I understand the issues that have been raised about implementation. I hope I have provided some assurance about the continued engagement of our team. Experts and practitioners, as team. Experts and practitioners, as we develop the detail of the implementation and valuations and of the ability of this House to scrutinise those as well. I hope

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noble Lords will be able to withdraw the amendments. I wonder if I could just clarify

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I wonder if I could just clarify a few points, that she said, in her a few points, that she said, in her remarks. Does the noble Lady, she gave the example of Warwickshire reducing the number of children on reducing the number of children on child protection plans. Of course in the number of children on child protection is a nationally found protection is a nationally found last year, by one point seven found last year, by one point 7%. It is last year, by one point 7%.

It is followed by three point 1%, century 2020. That is despite the increase 2020. That is despite the increase in unaccompanied oak asylum seeking in unaccompanied oak asylum seeking children. We welcome the progress in children. We welcome the progress in Warwickshire and anywhere else in the country that is achieving that. The impression that she gave the House was that this was an unusual occurrence. And I think it is just important to acknowledge that that is a national trend.

Secondly, the regulations that she refers to are extremely important in terms of implementation and I remember in other bills, other governments, publishing the draft regulations, during the passage of the bill. So that the House has clarity on the Government's intentions. I wonder whether she would be very kind and take that back to the Department and see if that is an option in this. Potentially other parts of the bill. In relation to the point about duplication. I'm not sure if I followed her comments about the duplication of caseworkers.

Page 13 of the departments guidance does appear to suggest that both the family health lead practitioner and the lead child protection practitioner in section 47 cases would both be involved. I'm sorry to be picky about money, of course she is right on the 500 million. Again, her department's own documentation states 253.5 million of that is a mainstream funding, originally for the supporting families program. This is just to be clear about what is new money, what it is for and, finally, I wondered if she could pick up on my noble friend Baroness Berridge is suggestion about, she talked about the general engagement that the department rightly has.

I wonder whether she could comment on

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whether she felt able to accept. The noble Lady, Baroness Barran

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The noble Lady, Baroness Barran says she didn't want undermine the work that was happening in Warwickshire, by pointing out that Warwickshire, by pointing out that there was a general downturn in the number of child protection plans. Good, because I do think, as Good, because I do think, as suggested we should celebrate where there has been a good work, which in Warwickshire they certainly attributed to the changes that they had made. Secondly on the point of had made.

Secondly on the point of draft regulations. There is attention here. On the one hand people are asking us to continue to people are asking us to continue to engage in the detail of how this is going to be implemented and yet also to have the regulations alongside the bill. I will reflect on it and come back to her. On the point about duplication. I have explained it twice and clearly I haven't explained it well enough, for people. I will undertake to write to noble Lords about the operational details, particularly this point about the role of the family health lead practitioner and the lead practitioner for child protection.

And the operational detail that the noble Lady, Baroness Berridge is talking about. On the point about new money. I think I have been pretty clear about what is new money. I said it explicitly. On the point about the meeting. My point was that there would be a whole range of meetings. A whole range of engagement. I don't say I have a meeting. My honourable friends, the Minister for children social care I know has met with very many practitioners and experts and DCS is, as of this process is gone on and I suspect, between us we will be able to continue meeting people in a way in which it was suggested.



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I am grateful for that, sorry. I am grateful for that clarification. am grateful for that clarification. Can I assure than ability the Minister that this concern is just born out of, as I hope I explained. We can all pick off one or two We can all pick off one or two experts and a group of people. But there are sector bodies like the British Association of Social Workers and the Association of Workers and the Association of directors of children's services and dimension a particular individual, because there was particular engagement in the independent review engagement in the independent review we are relying on.

I can assure than a lady, she comes back with support from those organisations saying we support this. We understand etc.. We support this. We understand etc.. We have engaged. The problems that we have here will, I assure her fall away. It is the support of those representative practitioner bodies that, in a busy diary, the noble Lady, I do not want to suggest how to delegate in time. To come up with that reassurance, the concerns I think will melt away.

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I'm not sure that experts is the way the department is engaged in consultation, or engage with so far. consultation, or engage with so far. Nor will come in the future. Look, I Nor will come in the future. Look, I am realistic. I have done, in my am realistic. I have done, in my time, in both houses, I think, at least, this is probably my 12 bill. I have never frankly done a bill in which everybody was content. I'm not going to say that the only way, good going to say that the only way, good except that the only way we can request this legislation is if every single expert representative and single expert representative and professional body supports it.

I have spelt out, very clearly where have spelt out, very clearly where these proposals came from. I have spelt out very clearly, the spelt out very clearly, the engagement that we continue to have. I have a demonstrated how regulations will be subject to scrutiny, both in the sector and also, in this place. I have said I am willing, alongside my honourable, my right honourable, my honourable friends, Janet Daby, to continue meeting with a whole range of people, about this. I think I have to say, I do think that is pretty reasonable, my party.

If other noble reasonable, my party. If other noble reasonable, my party. If other noble
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Lord Agnew of Oulton Portrait Lord Agnew of Oulton (Conservative)
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Is at your Lordships pleasure the amendment is by leave withdrawn? Amendment by leave withdrawn. Amendment 34.

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Amendment 34. My Lords, this is a probing amendment. I'm the first to admit amendment. I'm the first to admit this is not an area where I have the expertise but my questioning really comes from the angle of the impact of schools. And really how much time and cost will be involved. I do understand under clause 3, subsection 4 of this bill and then section 16 J of the children's act 2,000 and for requiring safeguarding partners, that is local authorities, police and health to ensure multiagency child protection are adequately staffed, this includes representation from education.

Schools themselves are not made statutory partners but safeguarding partners must secure the participation and representation of education and childcare agencies at both operational and strategic levels in the local safeguarding arrangements. I also understand legislation does not impose new direct financial obligations on individual schools. The duty to ensure teams are sufficiently staffed falls on the safeguarding partners of the schools themselves. I do presume schools will incur some indirect costs relating to some staff time for participating in safeguarding arrangements, meetings and training.

Really my question is how will this change from the current arrangement? What additional obligations are likely to occur? I listened carefully to the Minister's point on the new money from... 270 million. I understand she cannot give any clarity on long-term funding until the spending review in a few weeks time so I do not have an issue with that. If we took that money the 270 and just assumed even half of it went to schools which of course would be a fraction of that but that is only £600,000 to schools, I will come onto this in a minute.

I understand you are planning to provide guidance to support the implementation and the safeguarding partners are expected to tailor the arrangements to low global need -- to the global needs which may help manage additional burdens on schools. I would like to know when that information is going to be available. That is actually important because of the need for us, for schools to budget. Unforeseen burdens particularly are likely in school of areas of high deprivation. Where we are seeing the backwash of so much of the suffering of these vulnerable children.

The point the Minister I hope will be mindful of is we only have 1265 hours per year of directed time for our teaching cohort. So every hour doing something other than teaching is a salami slicing away our ability to provide good education. And something has to give. The other area I am puzzled by and this again is my ignorance but these pilots you have been running. I have been trying to find some feedback on these pilots and I have not been able to find anything.

In the common Select Committee they raised this issue of the lack of clarity. So if you can provide any I understand I think my noble friend Baroness Barran said some of these pilots had extra money to deuce them up and get more participation. Which is great but will that be available on a wider rollout? I am very worried about this because as you know we are facing something of a financial bloodbath in the schools sector. If we have to start hiring supply teachers to enable ordinary teachers to be released to go to safeguarding meetings, these are costs which will hit us.

So could I ask the Minister to give us a timeline on the implications for schools and ensure us schools will have sufficient time between publishing of the guidance and the setting of their budget. So for example we really need to set our budgets in an April for a September to go live because that tends to be when teacher improvement -- teacher recruitment goes on, people resign under appointed. I hope the Minister will understand where I am coming from. I respect I have a lot less knowledge in the sector but I'm just worried about the backwash into the schools sector.



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Clause 3 page 4, line 14, to
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Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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insert the words as printed.

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My Lords, I am delighted to support the amendment standing in the name of my noble friend, Lord the name of my noble friend, Lord Agnew of Alton. The example he gave of teachers and teaching assistants of teachers and teaching assistants as cited in his amendment 34 could obviously be replicated for many obviously be replicated for many other agencies with a valuable contribution to make to multiagency contribution to make to multiagency child protection teams and wilder -- wider safeguarding activities including local drug and alcohol services, mental health services, domestic abuse services, housing domestic abuse services, housing association said more.

The key point here I think is that practitioners here I think is that practitioners need to feel confident in how to engage in the process and how any information they shall be used. And the confidence it will not put anyone at risk. As my noble friend said, confident they have got the time and the working day to be able to participate responsibly. From my own experience, I know we make assumptions at our peril about how confident even statutory agencies are in some of these areas.

Any program that promotes safe and effective partnership work is to be commended. My amendment 38 seeks to understand what capacity the government thinks will be needed on the ground. And what guidance it plans to give for this. Currently the bill talks about and I will duties under section 47 of the Children Act 1989. And clause 3, page 3, lines 27 to 31 multiagency child protection teams to consist of a, at least one of each of the persons mentioned in subsection 4.

And B, such other persons as the local authority considers appropriate after consulting the other safeguarding partners. My question, my track record question is what does this mean in real life? I am sure the answer to this is no but as written it could mean Birmingham has one team and Rutland has one team. I am sure the noble Baroness, the Minister will reassuringly that is not -- will reassure me that is not the plan. Even smaller, local authorities and particularly rural local authorities have multiple child protection teams already.

So adding one more is not going to be that useful to them if they have got multiple existing teams that need that multiagency engagement. When I led the charity save lives and read the rollout of multiagency risk assessment conferences around the country and we had rather less influence than the government does, we did give every area estimates based on evidence of realistic caseloads, evidence of realistic caseloads, resource requirements and so forth sourced -- and so forth.

If a small charity can do that, my challenge to the Minister is surely the government can do something similar or work with the ADCS or the LGA to develop appropriate clarity and guidance. I would be very grateful if the Minister could explain the government's plan. I beg to move my amendment 38.
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Baroness Bousted Portrait Baroness Bousted (Labour)
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My Lords, I was not going to speak in this amendment but I just have to stand up to say, the idea have to stand up to say, the idea schools over the last 20 years have not been at the centre of child protection and safeguarding is ludicrous. During the course of the last government, the central grant of London authorities decreased by 40%. Real terms school funding decreased by nine%. In real terms. In that period schools became the fourth emergency service.

As children social work, child protection, all of the safeguarding systems around the child were absolutely decimated by austerity. Schools have become extremely good at identifying Children In Need of safeguarding, children who need protection. They have become externally good at providing information and support and training to their staff. And they did this very well at a time when the last government was absolutely reducing in real terms support to schools. They have had to become experts in child safe and child protection. Because the other services which should have been there to work with schools simply went.

So the idea that multi- agency professional teams, legally responsible for working with schools in order to support them to protect children is something which will strengthen child safeguarding and child protection. The idea schools need extensive CPD on this, of course CPD is always helpful but the idea they have not been doing this and this would be a new thing to them frankly is ridiculous.
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Lord Bellingham Portrait Lord Bellingham (Conservative)
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My Lords, I was not going to speak in this group but I wanted to add my support to my fellow northern peer, the noble Lord Agnew. But also to ask the Minister a question. We have talked about local authority resources and pressure local authorities are under. In the case of northern County Council they are a strategic authority -- Norfolk County Council they are a strategic authority and they have special measures for vulnerable children and special needs et cetera.

As the Minister will know their budget is under pressure and Norfolk County Council have said recently they have got to find another 40 million of savings. What I would like to ask the Minister is in this context as we move towards unitary government where there are plans to bring in unitary government across Norfolk which means basically get Reading like getting rid of the district and may be placing those districts with one unitary council. Which would be Norfolk County Council plus all of the other competencies.

If we move to more than one unitary authority in a large county like Norfolk and may be in counties like Suffolk as well and have possibly one or two Unitarians placing the county and the district then what would happen in terms of dissipation of resources? Resources going in to this particular type of work among vulnerable children. Would it be spread between one or more local authorities? And what are going to be the consequences in terms of replication of services? Cost pressures? On those authorities.

At a time when budgets are very tight anyway. The other question I want to ask the Minister which follows on from the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Addington. If resources are going to be made available, what possibilities are they going to be for teachers and TA's to get that extra training outside of the actual local authority? If they want to enhance growing careers, if they want to widen their experience, and their initiative because there is nothing actually available for them in terms of the provision within the authority.

What can they do and who can they turn to to get that extra can they turn to to get that extra
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Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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In a previous groups, I have spoken at some length about the purpose and functions of these multi agency child protection teams and how they will be delivered as part of the existing duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of children in their area. To speak to the amendments in this group, first of all, amendment 34, and I thank the noble Lord Lord Agnew for his contribution about ensuring that teachers and teaching assistants have the right training to work effectively in child protection.

Statutory guidance is clear that teaching staff should receive safeguarding training at induction and at least annually thereafter. I think my noble friend Baroness Boustead was very clear about that position. And the noble and learned lady Baroness Butler-Sloss, also very passionate about the need for schools to be involved in this, which is precisely why, of course, on Tuesday, we debated the clause about education and childcare settings being key safeguarding partners, and the improved emphasis on that in this legislation.

I, however, despite having this assurance, decided in the spirit of the previous discussion we were having, that I would consult an expert about whether or not this was in fact the case. I consulted a teacher very close to me about the sort of training that he was receiving, and he tells me that every year we receive statutory update on training. This can take most of our insight days and most of our insight days and requires us to read the updates for Keeping Children Safe in Education Keeping Children Safe in Education Guidance.

Then about once 1/2 term -- half term, CPD. He is an excellent teacher, although I am biased as his mother. I think this makes the point about the current position in terms of training for teachers and teaching assistants. Where there is I think a reasonable point is as well about the education partners that will be working, although they already have a responsibility for safeguarding, they are also now, of course, going to have the role in the multiagency child protection teams more specifically.

And that is why I hope I can assure noble Lords statutory guidance is also clear that the statutory safeguarding partners, and that does include the other partners that the noble Lady referred to. In this case, safeguarding partners should support practitioners that work with children, including through creating a learning culture where practitioners stay up to date on best practice. And we are confident that the practitioners in the child protection teams will be able to operate as a crucial link to and from education and childcare settings, ensuring school staff are supported to work with vulnerable children and the teams effectively.

The Pathfinder areas have developed multiagency workforce development plans. They have delivered comprehensive multiagency training. This provided opportunities not just to ensure practitioners have the knowledge and skills they need to deliver effective child protection, but also as an opportunity to align on shared values and build these vital cross agency relationships. Training typically covered the reforms, safeguarding responsibilities, local practice frameworks, and how different roles fit together across the system. I think there is both the opportunity within schools and also the improved opportunity from the role of the education practitioner in the multiagency child protection teams to ensure that expertise is there.

I will now turn to amendment 38 relating to delegated functions. I spoke on this in the previous group. In fact, we spoke on it understandably in several group so understandably in several group so far in this Committee Stage. I will briefly revisit the key points here. These new teams will be delivered as part of the existing joint an equal duty on safeguarding partners. I previously mentioned the flexibility in the new measures, which enables teams to operate along police and health footprints, balanced with sharp focus on multiagency child protection delivery, were agencies are clear about their responsibilities and accountabilities.

I think the noble Lady Baroness Barran sort of answered her own question. Now, of course it would not be the case that you would have the same number of multiagency child protection teams in an authority like Birmingham as you would have in Rutland. That would not be logical. Also, I'm not sure that I would characterise this system as you have current child protection teams and then you are simply adding another one alongside them, as at one point the Noble Baronesses said.

I think in the explanations, particularly in the last group I was talking about, the intention is very much that these teams will be the place within the consideration of a child protection case -- cases and issues were agencies will be able to work together, so they are quite distinct from the child protection teams that might be currently existing. In terms of resources, safeguarding partners agree and government has provided funding for the initial rollout of which child protection teams are apart.

Other noble Lords... I don't want to be churlish about this but I'm not sure I would have rolled up to this committee at this point to focus particularly on how difficult school and local government funding is if I had to spend the last 14 years supporting the government. Nevertheless, it is an important point that we ensure that there is sufficient funding. This is why, of course, this government has already increased in real terms funding going to both schools and to local government.

And in the last group or the group before last, we also responded to the point raised by the noble Lord Lord Bellingham about the consequences and the process of local government reorganisation, and I think I provided some assurance provided to me by my noble friend provided to me by my noble friend

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Baroness Taylor about that point. It was great to hear from her son and all the training he gets. Is and all the training he gets. Is fantastic. Can we take from that therefore that these new duties therefore that these new duties within this bill will involve no additional training, that everything additional training, that everything is covered within the training already that she sets out so eloquently, or are they going to -- either going to be additional either going to be additional training implications? -- are there

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going to be additional training implications? The point I was making was whilst

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The point I was making was whilst there is already good training provided for teachers and teaching provided for teachers and teaching assistants, I then went on to talk about the way in which I thought the about the way in which I thought the role of the education lead practitioner would both enable and need there to be more training provided, and I use the examples of one of the Pathfinders were the training had taken place. I suspect in those Pathfinders, and it would be appropriate if it was some of the additional money that had been made available, but I also made the point that it is already the case that statutory partners in safeguarding our providing resources for their safeguarding responsibilities -- are.

In the point about these teams is that they will enable that resource to be spent more effectively at the point at which is going to impact children's lives.

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Can I just again deter to the

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Can I just again deter to the view that all of this training is done online. It is still a done online. It is still a requirement of Ofsted that every teacher when question should have a teacher when question should have a working knowledge of keeping working knowledge of keeping I'd like to ask the Minister, and avast previous ministers about this, that when keeping children safe in that when keeping children safe in education is updated, could it be done before the beginning of September so that the days can be September so that the days can be planned with the new guidance rather than the old?

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than the old? I'm glad that... I think the noble Lord was reinforcing the point that I made. I will be in big trouble with my son for having outed him in this debate. I'm glad to hear that other excellent teachers have experienced this training. I think he makes a very fair point. I will certainly go back to my colleagues in the department and set, in reality, if you want people to be being trained and dated in keeping children safe in education guidance and you expect that had -- that to happen on inset day, it would be good for the guidance to be there in time for them to be able to do that.

time for them to be able to do that.
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Lord Agnew of Oulton Portrait Lord Agnew of Oulton (Conservative)
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I thank the Minister for her answers. I would like to reassure the noble Baroness that I was not trying to suggest that this is a whole new scale of undertaking for teachers. My noble friend Baroness Barran was right. I was trying to understand scale limit because this is a really big, complex bill and the Minister was helpful in saying that her son who was dealing with this on the frontline feels that one inset day will be sufficient for the kind of familiarisation needed.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but what I'm trying to say is that a bill of this complexity, in my experience, will need quite a lot of CPD for our teaching cohort. That is where I'm coming from. We have a very specific time -- amount of time available because of the 12-6-5 role. -- rule. I take at face value what the Minister has said. I acknowledge that you have in your immediate life someone who can give you frontline experience.

I genuinely mean that because that's where I'm coming from. I ask this question because head teachers and my Academy Trust have asked me to clarify it. It was put forward with the best of intentions. And to Baroness Butler-Sloss's point about schools being at the forefront of child protection, I completely agree with her because I was one of those children nearly 6 years ago. My family collapsed, my father was left with seven children, and it was my with seven children, and it was my school that provided continuity and care for my well-being.

So, I absolutely accept that schools should be part of this. I just want to make sure there is real understanding in the department and as part of this legislation that you are mindful of the overhead that will apply and to the noble Lord 's point about coordinating the timetables so that if this was to be from 1 September, we know about it, so that we can be planning what we put into the training day. I thank the noble Minister for her answer.

I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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Is it your Lordships pleasure that the amendment be by leave that the amendment be by leave withdrawn? Amendment 35, Lord withdrawn? Amendment 35, Lord Fraser, not with. Amendment 36, 37 and 38. Amendment 39 and 40. Not and 38. Amendment 39 and 40. Not moved. The question is that clause 3
15:32
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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moved. The question is that clause 3 stand as part of the bill. All of those in favour say, "Content". Those in the contrary say, "Not content". The contents have it.

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I rise to speak to amendments 41,

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I rise to speak to amendments 41, 45 and 46 in my name. And speak to the noble Baroness in relation to the noble Baroness in relation to hear amendment 69. I would like to take this opportunity on behalf of the House to wish her a very happy the House to wish her a very happy birthday. As I set out in an earlier group I hope my prior experience in relation to setting up information sharing at scale in relation to high-risk domestic abuse will be high-risk domestic abuse will be useful as the House debates these useful as the House debates these important changes.

My amendment 41 and indeed the amendment 42 in the and indeed the amendment 42 in the name of my noble friend, Lord Lucas removes the duty to share removes the duty to share information in relation to safeguarding and welfare. For the agencies referred to in subsection 4 which include the statutory safeguarding partners, police, local authority and health, education and childcare agencies and any person who is doing work for either group. I think this could be referring for example to an independent chair in a serious case review.

Can the noble Baroness, the Minister be clear about who is intended to be covered in Group C, if I can call them Group in Group C, if I can call them Group C. My concerns about this part of the bill is that it feels when you read it as if it is taking information sharing in isolation. It seems to imagine a world where relevant partner, say a school or a childminding agency, information they are concerned about a child which they pass on to the local authority and then that is it.

I know that is not the government intention but I am just trying to make sure the bill says what the government intends it to do. In practice you need sharing protocols and you need somewhere you can discuss the information. You have shared the noble Baroness Lister referred earlier to Annie Hudson's comments about people being in the same place. And you need to be together to agree what actions to take in relation to that information. I cannot see how any of that works in the bill.

And the noble Baroness may say that it is not for the government to prescribe these things but we do have a lot here in regulation and guidance. And it would be helpful if the Minister could elaborate and say exactly what the guidance will cover. My other worry is in real life you often do not know the significance of the information you hold until you join it together with information from other agencies. We used to say at safe lives you do not know what you do not know.

When the noble Lady, Baroness Scotland was the Minister I remember taking one of her colleagues from the Home Office to visit one of these multiagency meetings. Which I thought was almost certainly the kiss of death for our future relationship with the Home Office. But we survived. There was a case which I remember very vividly of sharing information where the police Officer said they knew about the case, they had attended the address seven times, the woman was always drunk and on the final occasion they found her -- find her for wasting police time.

As we went round the table it came to be the representative from the A&E team and the nurse who had looked at the police Officer as only nurses can do and asked her to run through the dates of those tendencies which she did. And she said they had an attendance on every one of those nights for that woman. That she had several broken bones and they had an attendance from the child the next day who had they were told fallen off his bike. We do not need miles of domestic abuse training to know neither party actually could probably put those things together.

Until you hear the other side. But even on a kind of simpler level, any of your Lordships who have been involved in this work will know that in the same family you have got one child who is causing all sorts of trouble in school and is very visibly disturbed and their sibling wants to stay for every after-school club and is the most immaculately behaved. So I know Bill cannot address all of those permutations. We just need reassurance the government has thought this through in practice.

It is also frequently not responsible to share information if nothing is going to happen with it. We are not just offloading risk of what we know on to another agency. The balance in considerations and the legislation in the data protection legislation other -- are there for a reason and we should respect people's privacy unless we think by sharing information we will make them safer. It is important to have full picture of a child when considering safeguarding concerns. I wonder how this works when say school shares a low-level concern with health because they are the most relevant statutory agency but in the same case, the police share different information with the local authority and are not clear, I know who in theory should hold that full picture but how in practice does the local authority, social work team hold the whole picture? And crucially how is that picture kept up-to-date? Similarly where is the duty for the lead safeguarding agencies to share back with wide organisations what action they have taken based on the information that was shared? Those organisations need to know how they can help, what they can do that could make a child safer and indeed what they could do which could increase risk to a child.

I am also not clear from the bill what the threshold is for sharing, the duty in 16 L A, one Day and Be says a person to who this section applies, so in this case all of the 400+ schools and nurseries and childminders and their typical local authority -- in a typical local authority I know my noble friend referred to on Tuesday will have a duty to share information relevant to safeguarding or promoting the welfare of the child.

That is obviously incredibly broad and would require a lot of resource if it is followed to the letter and again something when I look at the impact assessment I cannot see how that has been fully accounted for. So if the noble Lady, the Minister could elaborate that would be very helpful. I also think agencies will need guidance about when to disclose information. As the law obviously allows them to do this today and allows them to do this today and this does not change.

It does not change those duties. Even with statutory partners like the police, they benefit from guidance and we need to strike a balance between hypervigilance on one hand and information dumping, i.e. Sharing everything at risk of diversion on the other. I am also not clear from the bill whether education and childcare agencies should seek consent, presumably from the parent rather than the child before sharing information and where public interest overrides consent? In practice as the noble Lady knows, it is a blurry line between sharing information about a child.

The child came into school and washed, in unwashed clothes for the fourth day in a row. That might be something specific about the child that is legally, that is legal to share. But it implicitly shares information about the parents where the balance in considerations might play out differently. I think again if the Minister can clarify, in a world where agencies trust one another this becomes a two-way street. Local authority can request the nursery -- at a nursery for information for example but can a nursery make a request of the local authority? And then more specifically how does the government think subject access requests will be handled? So if we imagine I think of my grandson's former childminder who was wonderful.

But how would we expect those parent organisations to deal with this, both administratively and in human terms? My noble friend, Lord Lucas Amendment 49 also raises the point about retaining public trust in the process including by clarifying the need to maintain records and processing disclosures made under this section. My Lords, I could go on but I do not think there is a need to. This part, 16 L A is the right thing to do. But doing it right and getting it right in practice is fiendishly difficult.

Moving from a world where education and childcare agencies can and do share information with statutory agencies about safeguarding and welfare in relation to children, to a world where they have a duty to do so without having tested this in practice may throw up all sorts of unintended consequences. I would just be grateful if the noble Lady could reassure me, I think it would be unfair to expect her to address each one of those in detail. But that she would consider these points, comment on those that she can and perhaps find out from the Department whether there have been any pilots of this approach or indeed in the family first partnership areas how is it going? Turning to my other amendments.

As noble Lords will know, the Public Bill Office here has done beyond superhuman job in putting down a huge number of amendments and I am ashamed to say some from me are very late like at a very late hour. I am hugely grateful. I think my amendments 45 and 46 overlap and we do not need both of them. This amendment links to some of the very points were raised in clause 3 and I am thinking about cases where unexpectedly information images about significant risk.

Neither to another sibling or to an adult -- either to another sibling or to an adult of the extended family members, if I can sneak it back in which is why I prefer 45 of the extended family members, if I can sneak it back in which is why I prefer 45/46. The relationship of a sibling is easier to deal with the domestic abuse is Nokia's concern and I know the noble Baroness shares my concerns about that. Where our actions must be prioritised to safeguard the child but that could in turn increase risk to the victim, which ironically of course could then make things worse for the child.

But where the victim discloses domestic abuse to the childminder who then reports it to the local authority and the police, the police turn up and as we know in many cases no further action is taken that perhaps silences the victim from seeking help. I know the noble Baronesses familiar and we cannot legislate for every human behaviour. But it is just thinking through the risks they're both to the victim and the child. In such a case. If I may I would just like to case.

If I may I would just like to give one of the true case from many years ago when an abusive father was also a carer for his mother. Adult services were unaware of the concerns about his behaviour despite the fact his mother kept falling out of bed and injuring herself. I just wondered within this approach, how those wider information sharing gaps are going to be bridged. My amendment is absolutely in the spirit of the probing amendment. But I just want reassurance government has thought these things through.

I look forward to the Minister's reply in hearing the contributions of other noble Lords. other noble Lords.
15:46
Baroness Walmsley Portrait Baroness Walmsley (Liberal Democrat)
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I rise to speak to amendment 53 in this group in the name of my noble friend Baroness Tyler of Enfield and myself. This amendment is designed to ensure the entire is designed to ensure the entire implementation of the single unique identifier, otherwise known as the consistent identifier. Timely access to high-quality, personalised education, Health and Social Care education, Health and Social Care Committee is fundamental. -- Health and Social Care Committee Clause 4 Clause 4 inserts Clause 4 inserts two Clause 4 inserts two new Clause 4 inserts two new sections into the Children Act 2004 that relate to information sharing and this includes a provision to introduce our persistent -- a consistent identifier for children.

My noble friend Baroness Tyler argued strongly for the introduction of an identifier for children during the passage of the Health And Care Act. We know that too many safeguarding case reviews, especially heartbreaking and harrowing ones that hit the headlines, have said that better data sharing between services is needed to properly safeguard children and improve their health and wider well-being outcomes. This is intended to provide a clearer legal basis for sharing information to promote the welfare of children and prevent them from falling through the gaps.

Through the introduction of this unique, consistent identifier, it will be much easier to match records and share information confidently. So, my Lords, implementation within this Parliament of this crucial measure as promised in the Government's manifesto is paramount. We cannot run the risk of it being lost in a subsequent Parliament if it is no longer considered a priority. That's why many in the sector, particularly many children's charities are working together to scrutinise the planned timescales and implementation plan.

As things stand, there is a risk that full implementation of this identifier will not take days before the next general election. The NHS and local authorities might be using a common identifier but not school settings or police. Partial implementation would fundamentally undermine the benefits of a single identifier. So either all services are supported to use it soon or we run the risk of it not being effective. This amendment would ensure that full implementation of this part of the bill takes place before the next general election, as set out in the Labour manifesto.

I could say just a brief word about some of the other amendments in the group. I also have concerns about what Baroness Barran raised about vulnerable members of the family I look forward to hearing reassurances about that from the noble Baroness the Minister. On Amendment 69, which has not been introduced yet in the name of Baroness Spielman, it sounds to me like a good idea that the data should be consistent so that people accessing the information should understand exactly what it means. But I'm just concerned it might turn into a to box exercise and I would hope that would not be the case.

I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness the Minister has to say about that. With that I close my speech about that amendment.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I'm rising to speak to amendment 69 in my name and to make provision
15:50
Baroness Spielman Portrait Baroness Spielman (Conservative)
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69 in my name and to make provision for a cup -- a common open data standard. If I can start with a couple of wider comments, like Baroness Laing field, as chief inspector at Ofsted, I reported each year for many years on the concerning shift of local authorities into acute services and away from early help in targeting support. The reasons seemed fairly simple. It was because resource was constrained for those statutory services so it was logical for local authorities to prioritise spent on those.

I was surprised when the noble Baroness the Minister cited this concerning shift as a reason for the changes in -- proposed in the care review and this bill. There are potentially much simpler solutions in rebalancing the obligations or providing funding. This bill does carry -- create a lot of additional structures and duties and complexity, which could unintentionally take more resource and time away from frontline were, which I know everybody would like to prioritise. And I would like to get more sense of the thought as to how this bill can enable all the players in an extremely complex system, rather than simply direct and control for the ministerial office.

And the particular missed opportunity that I'm talking about today is about data, and the value of common open data standard to help of common open data standard to help facilitate sharing and individual level, but also to make it easier to aggregate and analyse. Every service working with vulnerable children has its own data system, typically in each sector there are a number of proprietary systems available. Each of those is set up and works in different ways. There are no common data standards for the bodies involved.

This makes it genuinely hard. There have been obligations between different parties for very many years to share data, to share information, share data, and yet every serious case review points out failure is in datasharing almost without exception. It's right that we have privacy by default so it is a hard decision each time you do decide that it is important enough to share information to overwrite to share information to overwrite privacy in that case. -- To override privacy in that case.

These also don't work to a common standard. There is potential improvement in the management of individual cases if we can reach the kind of open data standard that is being developed and used and other developed and used and other sectors. -- In other sectors. It is also hard to put together a national pick your when it comes to data about social care. The understandable protection around individual children and also the kinds of disconnect that have already been referred to, information about people who are causing the harm or other children who are collateral damage in the same situation are not necessarily nearly -- neatly lined up.

So it is genuinely hard to find out about types of abuse and who is implicated. This is a real problem. It should not just be down to journalists to go hunting for things that we should already know and be acting on. I served as chief inspector until the end of 2023 on the National Permutation Board -- National Implementation Board. I sat across Professor Finkelstein who was a data export and gave me valuable input into the framing of this amendment.

Data was an important strand of the Care Review Report. Part of the important plan for its implementation. It does seem to have got largely lost. So, I would like to put forward this amendment and propose to the Minister that she should make sure that this opportunity to enable all players in this complex system should not be lost. By making this provision now, she will have the flexibility to set a sensible timescale, a reasonable proportionate timescale for all of these proprietary providers to start creating the kinds of alignment that can help us going into the future do the best for all children.



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I can't resist speaking on what the noble Lady Baroness Barran said
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15:57
Baroness Butler-Sloss Portrait Baroness Butler-Sloss (Crossbench)
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interesting. But I'm rising to speak during these amendments to support during these amendments to support particularly amendment 69, but also to take the opportunity strongly to to take the opportunity strongly to to take the opportunity strongly to support this cause -- clause 4. I think it is unbelievably important. think it is unbelievably important. Festival, when I worked on the child abuse enquiry, it was obviously -- abuse enquiry, it was obviously -- it was absolutely obvious that nobody spoke to anybody.

The police, the psychiatrist, the paediatricians. Literally nobody was sharing information about anything. OK, that was a very long time ago. I was very recently at a conference and we were discussing certain aspects of safeguarding. A senior police officer told me that he was trying to work with Peter bro local authority who would not speak to him about the issues that he wanted to discuss, and I wondered ever since what on earth I could say about it is I'm raising it here today.

That was last month I was being told that. The real problem is to get people to talk to each other. I listened with great interest to the various problems that the noble Lady Baroness Barran raised. At the end of the day, what really matters is that clause 4 is past with whatever alterations are necessary because nothing could be more important. To things. One is information sharing and the other is sensible, adequate

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data. I'm sorry not to be able to speak
15:58
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
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I'm sorry not to be able to speak at second reading but I take a great interest in the effectiveness of public services and improving them where we can. I was sorry that there is not much discussion of the importance of information sharing across agencies involving social care that day. Although the noble Lady Wilcox of Newport spoke about it and come of course, we've heard eloquently today from Baroness Spelman introducing her amendment. There are about 400,000 children in the social care system.

History shows that in the sector for recording and sharing of information are sometimes responsible for failure is in our care system. The noble Baroness lady but the source has bore witness to that again today. This let's down children, young people and families that are served. It's bad for social services who find it hard to recruit and spend time fighting fires rather than improving people's lives, as the noble Baroness lady Longfield has already said. Intervention needs to be timely.

The fallout from mistakes also increases the ever rising cost of the system. Delays, lack of essential training. Lack of intervening early in. All of that means the sharing of information in a timely fashion is critical to the reforms to social care. In scrutinising this book are we need to be sure that the system of data correction -- collection and use and aggregation to improve the system learns from the best. Way to understand how much of that will be in legislation, which Dennis Perrin has a radius.

I support amendment 41. -- Which Baroness Barran has already asked. I support amendment 41. On the compliance cost of all that in the many bodies and agencies that in the many bodies and agencies involved, including even childminders, as she said. I want to go somewhere different. I read with particular interests section 8, page 219 in the independent review of children social care. The report, I believe, is the inspiration for much of the government's reforms. For today's purposes, the proposal for a national data and technology task force is really important.

The case study on the positive experience in Bristol is instructive. They brought together data from 30 sources, including the council, police, DfE, NHS, DWP and social care themselves. That is the kind of joined up approach we need. That is happening here and now. I just hope this is not one of the areas with issues. A national system and a single unique identifier for children will take time. Even if we agree amendment 53, which was so eloquently introduced by the noble Lady.

Has the government set out the proposed task force and if not, I suppose my follow-up question would be why not? In any event, perhaps the Minister could describe what is happening in the absence of the cutting of data standards in the meantime and other areas of social care to encourage I was Director and started date of health research the UK. Created models for GPs and other... And transforming the results of things like trouser vaccines or medical devices -- trials of vaccines and medical devices.

In some ways it parallels the data systems around Tesco Clubcard and where we aggregated customer data so that we could spot trends and needs and serve our customers better. There are four things I believe are relevant from my experience here to the establishment of the datasharing we are discussing today. First we ensure the datasets were established on a compatible basis. And as robustly as possible. Datasets have to be able to talk to each other. My noble friend explained the importance of this and I look forward to the Minister's reply.

Second we had a training program for more than 10,000 individuals involved with such databases. The qualifications are important as the noble Lord, Lord Storey said but so is on-the-job training. This kind. It is different from the general safeguarding training which the Minister described so clearly in the light of experience of her own time at school. That is an important consideration. We had a program of engagement citizens panels and seminars to generate trust in what we were doing.

People were worried about making the data available, particularly health data. Trust in the transfer of data is a subject I believe to be of concern. My noble friend Lord Lucas in this group. -- Has an amendment in this group. And although we were funded by UK RA we ran the operation like a commercial one with clear objectives, focus and prioritisation and the implement of talented individuals and the pursuit of value for money. Which means the money goes further which I think looks very important given all of the questions that had been asked about resources.

I hope the Minister will agree this kind of approach merits consideration. One other point, contrasting experiences with the whistleblowing systems were set up at Tesco back in our supply chain. If you visited and injure factor supplying us you would find a notice on the wall with a central My telephone number and email which can be used to report per practice. The feedback from these telephone lines was useful individually since complaints are jewels to be treasured when improving a business or an organisation like the health service.

However it was even more useful and accurate. Because the committee and the compliance committee were able to look at hotspots in terms of complaints of location, category of concern and so hold executives to account and in most cases they had already taken action. I believe feedback of this kind could be hopefully the care system. I know one person complained to the police about 15 years ago this was, because she suspected a local agent restaurant -- Asian restaurant was the scene for abuse of local white girls.

She was told by the police if she persisted they might want to accuse him of racism. I hope and believe such attitudes are behind us. But the need for better information sharing and knowing where to complain when you see problems is a very important part of improving social care.
16:06
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16:08
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)
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Arise briefly to say that I think these clauses are going to be incredibly important. In order to empower information sharing. I do thank the noble Lady, Baroness Barran for having raised so many of the practical concerns. Because I know the noble Lord, Lord Bester has just asked for some objective criteria but I would have to say from my experience in general practice and many years ago paediatrics, there did not seem to be a clear line very often.

There be a clear line very often. There was a sort of shades of grey. And depths of suspicion. A sense of something that might not be right, long before you could establish any objective evidence. Actually the objective evidence sometimes came far too late. I will never forget a child who 50 years ago had been dipped in boiling water. I was the admitting person in the A&E department, as a junior Doctor. Having really only just started in paediatrics.

There were children who were readmitted with injuries and then when you went into it, you discover things have been going wrong for a long time previously. Later on when I was on the health authority the Gwent we had some tragic cases there. Which obviously I cannot disclose the details of that one of the recurring themes we had was people had not put together the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. They had not connected the dots to realise what was happening.

And so I worry that we will not ever be able to have an absolute criteria. We have to allow discretion. Which is what this amendment does. And I note in part seven that it talks about a breach of obligation of confidence owed by the person making disclosure. I think that is actually helpful. Because hopefully you will see the person over and over again once you have an index of suspicion to try and ascertain what really is going on before you trigger the referral.

Each of those encounters as it says on the face of the bill must be documented. So you would document why you had not triggered at that point but you might trigger later. And I think it would be really helpful when the Minister is responding to this debate if she can outline the way the system is thought to work in practice and where the central repository of data will be. Because there is a concern it can put data into a system, whatever the system is but if you do not mind that data, if you do not have flags that come up that put the pieces together, it may be that you get a lot of people saying but I reported it.

And I reported it. And I reported it in. It goes into some kind of data black hole. Without really being joined up. Because there will need to be a responsibility for saying this is actually looking more than a one-off occurrence. There is something going on here. And it needs to be investigated. investigated.
16:12
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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My Lords, since the very first inquiry into the tragic death of Denis O'Neill in 1945 we have seen time and time again poor information sharing lies at the heart of serious sharing lies at the heart of serious chart -- serious child.... If we are serious about protecting children must be serious about fixing this. I think there has been in this group of amendments with respect to this clause, a pretty strong consensus around this House on that point.

The in production of an information -- introduction of an information sharing clause of this bill marks a step forward in that mission. The noble and learned Lady Baroness loss -- lady Baroness Butler-Sloss demonstrated while there has been some progress there is nevertheless still a need for the clarity and permission provided by the duty in permission provided by the duty in this bill. In speaking to the amendments I recognise they raise important questions about how they will make this a decision working practice and I will attempt to respond to as many as possible.

And where I do not I will try and ensure that I provide that information later. In first turning to amendment 41, which challenges the clarity and effectiveness of the duty to share information as set out in clause 16 K, let me be clear the new information sharing duty as I have suggested is a significant development. It places a legal obligation on relevant organisations to share information to safeguard and promote the welfare of children. These organisations already bound by statutory duty to have regard to the need to safeguard and promote the welfare of children when exercising their functions.

I think it might be at this point that the noble Lady, Baroness Barran asked who was captured in subsection C of the information sharing duty. That section, Group C relates to those relevant people undertaking functions on behalf of those organisations with section 11 duties. So for example GPs who work on behalf of NHS England and other individuals relating to those organisations with section 11 duties. And it responds directly to feedback in the Independent Review of Children's Social Care that found despite legislation permitting information sharing for safeguarding, practitioners often see it as a barrier due to confusing organisational agreements and arrangements.

Officials in developing this duty have worked closely with the Information Commissioner's Office, with practitioners, and with other government departments to draft the measure. The duty is not about increasing the number of referrals into children social care, in fact precisely the opposite we could argue. It is about enabling practitioners to share and request information so they can understand what life is truly like for a child and understand the significance of I think one of the examples that Baroness Barran talked about was precisely a good example of where a whole range of different sets of information came together to create a very different and worrying story about a child.

I would also argue it's probably a good example of where a multi agency child protection team might well have been able to bring that information together to decide on action that was needed. It did exemplify the need to... It exemplified how we can get a clearer picture if we do information sharing, which this is all about. Some questions that were raised in respect to the detail... Firstly on the point about clarity on what safeguarding and welfare means.

I will give some examples a bit later as well. We will be providing further clarity about what safeguarding and welfare means through statutory guidance, which agencies in scope must have regard to. We will set out the kind of information that might be relevant to particular context so that practitioners have some support in thinking about how to apply the legislation. There is, of course, an issue about whether the information has to be relevant to the safeguarding or promoting welfare of children.

In developing this measure, we have sought to deliver, on our manifesto commitment so that children do not fall between the cracks, but also to ensure that the duty adheres as far as possible to data protection principles, particularly around purpose limitation and data minimisation. We will provide statutory guidance again here, which relevant agencies must have regard to, which will give examples of what this is likely to encompass. This is likely to broadly reflect the matters covered by the definition of safeguarding and promoting the welfare of children and also the Information Commissioner's Office 10 step guide.

On the point about consent, if the terms of the duty are met, the duty provides a clear legal basis for sharing information without consent. Of course, practitioners should aim to be as transparent as possible by telling families what information they are sharing and with whom, provided it is safe to do so. We intend to publish guidance on this in due course. Over the summer, we plan to undertake user testing to plan to undertake user testing to identify the key information that safeguarding practitioners want and need to carry out their functions effectively.

That will help to inform the associated statutory guidance, which we will consult on as well before bringing these provisions into force. I'm now going to turn to amendment 42, which actually I don't think has been moved by the noble Lord Lord Lucas. Nevertheless, I've got some good stuff here so I'm going to say some of it, which I think also will respond to some of the other points that have been raised because some discussions have been raised about the breadth and determination of safeguarding and promoting the welfare of the child, and what the test should be.

And I tend to agree with the noble Lady Baroness Finlay on this. I think this will be a case not so much of an objective test but of professional judgement bound by some of the conditions that I'm going to talk about. While the bill does not define safeguarding or promotion of welfare, these are not unfamiliar concept. They are well established in children social care legislation and widely understood by practitioners across the sector. It may be helpful to remind the House how safeguarding and promoting the welfare of children as defined in statutory guidance, specifically in working together to safeguard children.

It includes providing help and support to meet children's needs as soon as problems emerge. Protecting children from maltreatment, whether at home, outside the home or online. Preventing impairment of children's mental and physical health or development. Ensuring children grow up in a safe, stable and nurturing environment. Ultimately, taking action to ensure all children can achieve the best possible outcomes as set out in the Children Social Care National Framework. These are the foundation of safeguarding practice. There the outcomes this bill seeks to support through more confident information sharing.

This familiar framing is intentional. And empowers professionals to use their judgement, to share information where they believe it will help another agency to fulfil it safeguarding or welfare responsibilities. Moving on to amendment 43, 45 and 46. I did notice that 45 and 46 were very similar, although I've now forgotten which one includes at elder abuse -- add. But let's take the general themes. It seeks to broaden information sharing to consider the safety and welfare of others, not just the child when sharing or receiving information.

As the noble Lady has outline, this is particularly relevant in cases involving domestic abuse. I do fully acknowledge the importance of recognising when a parent or carer may themselves be a victim of abuse. The noble Lady gave a very vivid example of that. Our wider reforms are underpinned by a whole family approach and understanding the needs of the adults in the household. Statutory guidance working together to safeguard children already includes guidance for practitioners to focus on the needs of the child and their family.

However, we must be clear that the child safety and welfare is paramount in all decisions about information sharing. Statutory guidance issued as part of this duty will support practitioners in fulfilling their duty come including consideration of other factors such as domestic abuse, to help with the very complex and difficult situation that the noble Lady Baroness Barran alluded to. Turning now to amendment 53, introduced in the name of the noble Lady Baroness Tyler and introduced by Baroness Walmsley, which seeks to place timelines on the information of consistent identifier and other part of this clause.

I can say to noble Lords, as a manifesto commitment, we want to deliver on this ambition as soon as possible so that's why we've taken swift action to include provisions in this bill which will allow us to implement it as soon as possible. But there are important considerations, including technical and legal considerations, such as data security, monitoring and oversight, system can't availability -- system compatibility and cost. I don't think it would be prudent to pre-empt the outcome of those pilots and include a timeline on the face of the legislation.

As I think noble Lords now, we are currently exploring the suitability of using the NHS number as the consistent identifier. That process will take several months. The first phase of work will explore whether success rates of drinking -- linking children's records can be improved by using the NHS provider -- NHS number. This will inform future test and pilots. Pilots will inform us how to incrementally increase coverage across datasets used to manage safeguarding and welfare. If our initial pilot over the summer successful, at this stage we would anticipate giving children social care teams within local authorities access to the NHS number during 2026 whilst in parallel we test its impact and ability to be used in impact and ability to be used in wider areas.

The point here is it won't need to wait for a big bank to introduce it. Assuming this is the appropriate way to proceed, we will be able to do that on an incremental basis as soon as possible in different areas and with different agencies. Turning now to amendment 69 in the name of Baroness Bull man -- Baroness Spelman. Happy birthday. I'm not sure if this is how I would have chosen to celebrate my birthday but hopefully we will finish in time for some celebration.

This amendment seeks -- seeks to add a new clause to introduce an open, data standard. Noble Lords, including lady Neville Rolfe, have made a good case for this. For example, those used by GPs, social workers in schools, to seek the same remark to speak the same language. -- To speak the same language. In our case, they can ensure that a child's name, date of birth or safeguarding status is recorded in the same way. This is not just a matter of efficiency, it's a matter of safety.

Key to linking information across agencies is to build a fuller picture of a child's needs and to intervene earlier and more effectively. This is why we do have a proper programme underway to develop and implement common data standards as a mechanism to improve information sharing. We will work sector representatives to ensure standards focus on the biggest information challenges that we face. We will draw on the Cabinet Office examples that the noble Lady identified. We need to develop and test these standards prior to their implementation and to assess the most appropriate method to introduce them.

I hope that gives the noble Lady Baroness Spelman and others some certainty and assurance that we are making progress on this. With all of the explanation that I have given, I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments at this point. amendments at this point.
16:28
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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I'd like to thank the noble Baroness for her detailed response, and I look forward to her letter on some of the even more detailed points that I think deserve clarification. It was also reassuring to hear her confirmation that there will be user testing going on, as she said. And I wish her and colleagues in the Department good luck with the consent guidance, because it is hard if you are in a nursery and you're worried that a child is being neglected, getting consent from the parent is not a comfortable conversation, but not telling them and then finding out is also, can put the child at greater risk.

I think my noble friend Baroness Spelman 's amendment in relation to open data standards, and it was good to hear the Minister's response that work is going on in that area. Maybe in future debates we can get clarity on some sense of timing. I think going back to the earlier debates in clause 3, one of the biggest blocks to agency work -- multi agency work is just how slow it is to get data out of different systems to be able to share it.

So anything the government can do to smooth that along. I thought the experience of Baroness Neville-Rolfe was extremely helpful. We do have examples of doing this big data transformation projects quickly when we need to. The first was the linking of primary and secondary data, the healthcare data during the pandemic, so that we could predict ICU bed capacity needs. And the second, the noble Baroness knows is my favourite, attendance data. That has been game changer.

We are seeing attendance start to improve, happily. I'm glad to hear the Department is taking that seriously. I think the noble Lord is right about having some kind of objective criteria against which you decide whether or not to share information. In a multi agency well, you want those to be multiagency criteria because actually the sort of all the dust is when the police start to worry about pregnant women and their vulnerability and midwives start to worry about allegations of kidnapping.

The police know what that means and midwives know the significance of abuse in pregnancy. We want them to worry about each other's risks. I would absolutely agree with the noble Lady Baroness Finlay about the importance of professional judgement. That's clearly absolutely critical. It's helpful to have objective criteria. With those remarks, and with apologies to the Minister for yet another letter, I beg move to withdraw my amendments will stop --

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Amendments 42 and 43, Lord Lucas, not moved. Amendments 44 and 45, Baroness Barran. Amendments 45 and Baroness Barran. Amendments 45 and 46, not moved. Amendments 48 not moved. And amendment 49, Lord Lucas, not move. We therefore come to the group of amendments beginning with group of amendments beginning with amendment 50 in clause 4, amendment amendment 50 in clause 4, amendment 50, Lord Lucas. Baroness Coussins.

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I rise to move the amendment. Amendment 50 in the name of Lord Lucas and to speak to the other amendments in this group. In the name of Lord Lucas, Lord Farmer and name of Lord Lucas, Lord Farmer and the noble Baroness. I am the wrong

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group? I apologise. I miss read my papers. That was my fault. We now come to the group of amendments beginning with amendment 44.

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Baroness Barran. Thank you. My Lords, amendments

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Thank you. My Lords, amendments

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Thank you. My Lords, amendments 44, 47 and 48 and my name all relate -- in my name all relate to the recording and sharing of information recording and sharing of information decisions. They cover the two obvious situations. One where information is shared and one where it is not shared. Because the it is not shared. Because the relevant person considers sharing it would be more detrimental to the child than not sharing it. These amendments seek to clarify what the expectations are on all agencies from the smallest childminder to the from the smallest childminder to the largest college in terms of recording where decisions and recording where decisions and reasons for those decisions and reasons for those decisions and keeping good records is of easily essential but it takes time, it requires secure storage and access rights.

Good record keeping can improve the safeguarding situations for example whether it changes of staff -- whether in changes of staff or someone is on holiday or a new or temporary member of staff may not know the history of the case. Similarly in agency they may decide not to share information at one point and then at a subsequent point decided to is in the best interests of the child safety and welfare to do so. I would like to press the noble Baroness, the Minister in relation to cases with the decision where it is made to not share information.

Because of fear it would be detrimental to a child safety. -- To a child's safety. As discussed earlier we do not know what we do not know. The one piece of information might not seem overly worrying but when pieced together with others as we have discussed already the picture changes. Secondly we need confidence that practitioners are considering these decisions with care. No-one expects perfection in these areas but defensible rather than defensive decision-making. Also I wonder if she could just comment in this regard on subsections five and six.

Which I assume will be clarified in regulations. Having a clear decision-making process to record as simply as possible the decision taken and the reasons for it will improve the quality of decision- making and of course in the case of serious case incidents by which I mean when a child is killed or seriously harmed, it will be vital. So again I ask the government how this is going to work in practice? I can see if you are strong as a local authority, strong trust, a large college this might be close to business as usual.

What about the single primary, the small primary school head who has to deal with this along with 55 other responsibilities or the nursery for the childminder. I look forward to

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the noble Baronesses remarks. I beg to move. Amendment proposed, clause 4, page 16, line 30 at the end insert the words printed on the Marshalled list.
16:36
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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list. My noble Lords, I rise now to

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My noble Lords, I rise now to speak to the amendments in Group 6 tabled by the noble Baroness Lady tabled by the noble Baroness Lady Barran. And not by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. These do include amendments 44, 47 and 48. Which all seek to require practitioners to keep records of decisions made in processing information and when new information -- under the new information sharing duty. I do completely agree with the noble Lady, Baroness Barran the documenting such decisions is important for the reasons she outlined.

This principle is already embedded in the non-statutory guidance information sharing guidance for practitioners and managers as well as the Information Commissioner's Office 10 step guide to sharing information to safeguard children. Both of which remote clear and proportionate record keeping. I have to say in relation to the points that she made about the smaller organisations having to carry this out, I do think if I read an extract from the non-statutory guidance, I think it is helpful.

It says it includes advice to record the reasons for your information sharing decision irrespective of whether or not you decide to share information. Another practitioner or organisation request information from you and you decide not to share it, be prepared to explain why you chose not to do so. If you are willing to reconsider your decision if the requester shares new information that might cause you to regard information you hold in a new light. When recording any decision clearly set out the rationale and be prepared to expend your reasons you asked.

-- If you are asked. Furthermore data protection legislation includes key principles such as lawfulness, transparency and crucially accountability which requires organisations to demonstrate compliance with data protection obligations. Our plan is as the noble Lady surmised, to introduce statutory guidance covering matters such as appropriate record-keeping. Agencies must have regard to the guidance in discarding their duty which I think further strengthens recording decisions. We think this strikes the right balance and ensuring audit trails are in place, as the noble Lady outlined.

place, as the noble Lady outlined. Without placing unnecessary and -- unnecessary administrative burdens on practitioners who is the nobly has a release that are already working in Pacific and precious. I hope that's reassure the noble Lady, Baroness Barran and she is able to withdraw these amendments.

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Could the Minister perhaps shows an example of the kind of guidance that is given to a childminder or a that is given to a childminder or a small primary school already and presumably that is going to be enhanced I think she was saying earlier. Therefore to 30 questions earlier. Therefore to 30 questions or a small form or is there an online option because of course generation Z increasingly keen to generation Z increasingly keen to report online. Here --

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report online. Here -- I did read an extract from the statutory guidance that already statutory guidance that already exists called information sharing advice for practitioners providing safeguarding services to children, young people, parents and carers. young people, parents and carers. That was the guidance I read out. As I also said there is helpful 10 I also said there is helpful 10 steps from the Information Commissioner's office. There is the 10 step guide to sharing information to safeguard children. I am sure 10 straightforward steps.

straightforward steps.
16:40
16:41
Baroness Cash Portrait Baroness Cash (Conservative)
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with amendment 50. Clause 4.

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Amendment 50, Baroness Couttie blue. As you are already aware I stand

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As you are already aware I stand to speak to the amendments tabled in the names of our noble Lords, Lucas and Farmer in the noble Baroness, and Farmer in the noble Baroness, Lady Barran. Those are Group 7 amendments, 50, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, amendments, 50, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, six to two, 623 and 63 A. I list them at the outset because some of the same points apply in respect of several. These amendments tabled of several.

These amendments tabled in the same spirit of probing and in the same spirit of probing and collaboration which has seen this House at its very best this afternoon. I pay testament and tribute to the extremely experienced and knowledgeable voices we have heard including from noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. And others across the House. Who have unfortunately some who have shared their expertise of working in this expertise -- in this area of expertise. We are all united in datasharing and there appears to be no dispute on that.

The questions really are about how we do that and how we make sure it is easily accessible and safe. These particular amendments have been tabled in respect of the consistent identifier and we would be very grateful to the Minister for her assistance in answering some of the questions that these give rise to. It is about 50 years, 52 years since the first case where the country woke up to the dangers of not sharing information in the case of Maria Caldwell.

Her school, her neighbours, her social worker all had concerns but they were not pieced together. 52 years later we are hearing this House -- we are here in this House and that is in spite of the efforts of all parties of the other place doing their very best and trying to find a way today to share at different times since. 30 years later Victoria can be a -- trattoria claim BA highlighted the same thing and we know no common identifier or shed case file was the issue in the terrible case of Sara Sharif.

There are problems with datasharing. And in fact the last time my friends on the other bench were in government in 2004, the introduction of contact point under the children's act 2004 had to be abandoned for privacy reasons. To the great regret of all of us who are concerned with these matters and work in these areas in some capacity or other and I declare my interest is the co-founder of parent Jim in this sense. If I could just then turned to these individual amendments, some of which are quite suffix plan.

Amendment 50 is the noble Baroness, the Minister will have seen as a general probing amendment. To facilitate this discussion. But we go then to look at the use of a single consistent identifier. The data issues and the House is aware, I was a practising barrister for many years in the field of media law and data. GDPR issues, confidentiality around medical information is a major problem when datasharing. Even when is the noble Minister has pointed out the duty to share often overrides.

Sometimes information in one context, for example take a teenage girl obtaining contraception which is something she is entitled to do without sharing with adults, might in another context for example grooming gangs, have flagged to authorities she was indeed in a situation, especially if she showed a hotspot of a number of children where there was a problem and problematic issue. It is a difficult problematic issue. It is a difficult And the question of is this all medical information? And I note what the Minister said about the NHS identifying number.

Is all medical information then to be shared? How is information to be assessed as relevant to a particular case, and how is this to be done? Who will have the right to access the data system and enter information using the consistent identifier? Tragically, not only have we seen the terrible cases of children, and we know sometimes that the malfeasance has been committed sometimes by those who are entrusted to care for the child.

Take the terrible case of the child abuse in the care homes in Wales which went on systematically for years. Of course, those are the exception but there are serious questions to be asked here and it is in that spirit that these have been tabled because we have got some really careful thinking to do about how we achieve the shared, agreed aim of sharing data on children with also protecting against erroneous or mischievous use of the data, not to mention of course the medical confidentiality.

With general opening, if I could just turn to the individual amendments. The first, of course, the probing amendment. The second in respect of clarifying, and second in respect of clarifying, and I'm grateful again to the noble Baroness the Minister for clarifying the NHS number. How was that to be used? And how is any medical practitioner to assess what information does and doesn't go into that? Then looking at amendment 54. We are looking to understand, and we would be grateful for some clarification, of what is a similar set of identifiers and what that actually means.

I have never understood that. I did use that Lord Farmer who has tabled the amendment feels the same way. Amendment 55. It may be slightly tongue in cheek but I wanted to clarify the limitation there. Any electronic tagging is excluded. Amendment 56. This references the points I've just made about who will be in control of this data, who will be allowed access to the assistance, how will we know they are using it properly, what will be the consequences and how will errors be cut and sewn? So the pilot referred to earlier no doubt will throw up some of these answers but we would be grateful to understand some of the answers to these questions.

You see the question at the bottom, what happens when the child reaches 18? If we are using an NHS number, presumably those records continue, and has that been thought through? What other mechanisms will there be to protect the child from identification in respect of other diagnoses, carrying it into adult hood and being accessed in another context? Amendment 57, a similar point, but here we've got a basic error needing to be addressed. How do we ensure that numbers or identification is used correctly and not attached to the wrong individual? There need to be some safety mechanisms in order to comply with GDPR provisions and ensure that errors can be cut or prevented in the first place.

58. The question embodied in this amendment is a question before the government -- for the government and the Minister about who the government intends to be the designated persons under subsection 10. 59 and 60, probing again on the points I have already raised, but in particular amendment 60. May we know what the deterrents are likely to be in by reference to some of the terrible tragedies we've seen, one of those being malfeasance or abuse of children by those responsible for looking after them, how is a datasharing system to protect against that? What filters will there be? What checks, what regular monitoring, in order to prevent? Finally, I wish to ask in respect of 62, 63, what services in respect of 63, the section is going to apply to? The noble Baroness the Minister appreciates it's a lot of questions here.

But it is a probing group of amendments. Not intended to reduce the level of agreement and support for the principle of the consistent identifier, but to understand how it will be safely deployed. And finally, 63A, their questions about when our consistent identifier is to be applied. There are issues which might arise in relation to is this birth, is it on entry into the country, is it on the first issue being raised regarding the child's care? At what point is the consistent identifier to be applied? Again, I note that the Minister has referenced the NHS number and that would be self-explanatory because that number applies from that.

If that were not to be the case, if there are other identifiers being considered, what are those identifiers and what is the system around those and the protections attached to them?

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Amendment proposed, page 7, leave out from the beginning of page 20. If amendment 50 were agreed to,
16:54
16:54
Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Conservative)
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with those floors. Also, I will not be moving my amendment on the NHS identifier number later on.

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I raised to support -- I rise to support amendment 50 in the name of support amendment 50 in the name of Lord Farmer who gives his apologies to Your Lordships' House because he is unable to hear to move his own is unable to hear to move his own amendments. I do so because in the spirit of my noble friend Baroness spirit of my noble friend Baroness Cass, these are probing amendments Cass, these are probing amendments by large and they are amendments from a position of broad support at from a position of broad support at the objectives the government has laid down in this section of the bill.

Nevertheless, they are bill. Nevertheless, they are amendments which seek clarity in amendments which seek clarity in respect of the government has been respect of the government has been putting forward. Because we do need more information about the government's intention in adding this new section to the Children Act 2000. Such scrutiny is essential in that it would enable the government to follow a process that would be achieved through regulations and secondary legislation. It is nevertheless far-reaching. Potentially, it re-establishes a regime that previously was abolished in 2010 by the coalition government.

It is, nevertheless, hard to disagree with the logic that a single unique identifier would prevent children from getting lost in systems that are meant to keep them safe. For example, if they are known by different names or their names are not spelt correctly, as happened in the tragic case of Victoria Colombier. Tragic cases hang over those of us who, in my hang over those of us who, in my case, served on Social Services Committee for many years. Ensuring children do not slip through the net or disappear from services without knowing where they've gone is of paramount important -- importance.

I think it is appropriate that we look at the history, the genesis of contact point because I think it is important to be mindful of the need for positive data, not just quantitative data collection. There is a difference. Hence, in 2003, in his report about the death of Victoria Colombier, the noble Lord recommended safeguarding for all children under the age of 16. Was scrutinising this report later, the committee expressed doubt. It was said it would present a major technical challenge that should not be underestimated.

They were open to the concept likely for the same reason as many are advocating today. If good data can save children's lives, than it needs further exploration, of course. They went on to say that the implementation difficulties should not be a deterrent and endorsed the noble Lord's recommendations for a feasibility study to explore the practicality of setting up national database of children. Into this for, trailblazer pilots were conducted to assess the feasibility of implementing a children's information index.

Nine local authorities piloted a range of applications and the government's study of the indexes concluded that it was operationally and technically feasible. By 2000 and, the children's information sharing index had been renamed Contact Point with teams to have access to a database by autumn of 2009. In old money, the estimated cost of Contact Point was £224 million in the estimate maintenance cost was just under £44 million. Most of this was for local staff to operate, maintain and ensure the security of Content Point.

Some giving evidence on the Commons Committee on this bill and arguing strenuously for the SUI were among those running Contact Point at that point and benefiting from these sizeable contracts. In their defence, they so this is part of a bigger package and emphasise the need for early intervention in communities and strong relationships and families. The Children's Coalition said, to really shift, we need further investment in early intervention and early help across communities. A much greater focus on embedding that consistently and embedding that consistently and universally.

They also asked how the single-use identify will be effectively applied? Returning to the database, which was abolished by the incoming government in 2010, it was designed to contain names, ages and information about all children under 18, as well as information about the parents, schools and medical records. Respected organisations like the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust quantify the scale and financial cost of data collection, the methods used to maintain and secure the data and the treatment of critical issues such as consent as part of a wider study.

The research found that children the most at risk from what they call Britain's database state with three of the largest databases set up to support failing to achieve the aims. Police were also using databases to see whether children had been in contact with safeguarding teams. The Joseph Rowntree report found this was deterring teenagers from accessing health advice. One of the case and this was of a single mum who was terrified that social services will take her child away if she talked to her GP about postnatal They called the level of the systems to be assessed and for the right for citizens to access most Public Services anonymously.

More broadly and beyond this report the single liberties element was a key factor in contact points demise. The then government never satisfied critics the security arrangements were enough to assuage concerns about the access of an estimated 400,000 people to children's names, ages, dresses et cetera. Not only might this information might be misused but there was much discomfort with the basic intrusiveness of the whole approach. Yet despite all this history there has only been one mention of contact point in all stages of the bill so far.

When Lord Farmer asked the Minister of Second Reading what would stop the single- use identifiable coming contact point mark to smack 's --? There are many questions to be asked to address Lord Farmer's points. Such as when might the Secretary of State introduce legislation is for the new unique identifier? With the Ministers have consulted the Information Commissioner's Office whether they tend to draft to do so before the draft regulations and lay them before Parliament. Obviously if this may change is all done through secondary legislation there will be scant scrutiny of how a single unique identifier would operate.

How will people in organisations be required to use the information within their systems? Who will have access to the records associated with the SUI? And under what conditions? What happens if an erroneous information is entered, how can we guarantee full state will be wiped? For example a vexatious and unfounded allegation made but one parent by another parent in the context of an acrimonious family split might be associated with the SUI. And stay on a child's record indefinitely leading to all sorts of injustices and we have seen in other areas the misuse of the Communications Act and eight incidents being improperly recorded and retained for instance.

Academic literature ascribes how legal administrative abuse which weapon rises official information systems against a person is another form of domestic abuse. Is this highly sensitive area like it is this highly sensitive area but what highly -- what safeguards will there be against this happening? Finally what bounties will there be on extending the use of the identifier? Again one organisation giving evidence to the Commons committee appointed to its scope being highly like currently limited in the bill to safeguarding and welfare purposes.

That quote, a wider emphasis on well-being of children and and positive outcomes is one of the things that could be further considered here. Again this all sounds very well-intentioned but one of the data protection and privacy implications of every interaction with children being captured and stored. What are we trying to achieve through data can only really be effectively achieved through good relationships between professionals and the community and the families they are helping? Finally it is important to remember that particularly vulnerable children like newly arriving asylum seekers will have no number and not be on a database and for them local networks of relationships could be their saving grace.

I trust the Minister will address this important issue in her remarks and in the interim I beg to move amendments 54, 62 and 63 and support amendment 50.
17:05
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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Arrives to speak about amendment 59 which was discussed by men UpFront Baroness Cass and comments -- my noble friend Baroness cash and comments from my noble friend Lord Farmer. I do think the points my noble friend just made about some of the risks with the consistent identifier are important to get right and I think all of this in this House, nearly all of us in this House support the introduction of the consistent identifier. But some of the data protection privacy, malicious use points that my noble friend raised and potentially an extension in SCAPE all need to be resolved before it can be implemented safely at scale.

My thinking behind my probing amendment, my amendment with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, the probing amendment 59 was again just to ask the Minister if she can bear it at this stage of the afternoon, just to run through again for the smallest organisations how do we think this is going to work in practice? So in the last groups she set out clearly the guidance, the non-statutory guidance around balancing considerations and recording information which sounds straightforward when read out like that.

But as we know are more complicated in real life but now we are expecting those very small organisations also to input and to hold data in relation to a consistent identifier in a way that is secure. One of the points that I do not think previous speakers raised was the risk of hacking of data. We have obviously recently had concerns with the cyber attack on legal aid database with personal sensitive information being stolen by the cyber hackers.

And clearly this is not the kind of thing that needs to happen with children's data. I wonder again what thought the Minister and her team have given the Minister and her team have given to that? Can she also confirm whether use of the single unique identifier has been tested with all different types of practitioner? I think she mentioned the private in Wigan, but does that include -- the pilot in Wigan but does that include the smallest practitioners as well as the largest? What practical implemented Asian lessons can be learnt from that? Turning to amendment 62 in the name of my noble friend Lord pharma -- Lord Farmer who cannot be in his place today but very well introduced by my noble friend Lord Jackson, I think this is a small but very important amendment as many noble Lords have already referred to the terrible death and I remember reading the report many years ago.

If I remember rightly there were eight different files that were held on her, and Victoria. Partly because she had lived in two local authorities. But partly because her name kept being spelt differently. And that was one of the reasons the risk to harm to her was missed. So that obviously is an argument in favour of a consistent identifier. Information can still be inputted incorrectly including numbers. We are having a debate Sunan dyscalculia. -- A debate soon on this calculus.

It is a very serious issue and I have not thought of this but I should have done, the point about malicious information. Being shared and recorded. And how that could ever be removed. I look forward to the noble lady the Minister's reply.
17:10
Earl of Effingham Portrait The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)
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My Lords, this has been an interesting and thought-provoking debate on so many -- on such an important topic. Namely how using a unique identifier in the interests of safety and safeguarding for our children. Noble Lords have quite rightly raised some crucial questions from the noble Baroness, the Minister to answer. Particularly relating to privacy and aiming to clarify His Majesty governments purpose in this clause. We do hope the noble Baroness the Minister will be able to shed further light on both the specific issues and the broader ones.

I believe the noble Lord, Lord Lucas is amendment 56 and noble Lord farmers amendment 63 are both important as they seek to outline what they should be in the future regulations. We would be interested to hear the thoughts of the noble Baroness the Ministers like the noble Baroness the Minister on these if the government would consider publishing draft regulations during the passage of the bill. Similarly the noble Lord, Lord farmers amendment 62 highlights the crucial issue of accurate and secure data collection as well as recording and storage of that data.

I very much appreciate technology has moved on but many noble Lords will remember the Child Benefit data laws in 2007. Only last week the cyber attack and theft of data from the Legal Aid Agency and the current disruptions that one of our major High Street retailers is facing from a cyber attack. This is a real and present danger which is only going to increase. The loose nature of the clause creates veritable and justifiable concerns in terms of more specific issues were on -- we are interested to hear the thoughts of the Minister in relation to the noble Lord farmers amendment 54.

Can she please give your Lordships' House an example of a similar set of identifiers that is of general application. We also look forward to the Minister's response in relation to the noble Baroness, Lady Barran is amendment 59. Which would we believe if accepted, allow this project to move forward on a much lower risk and much more affordable basis.
17:12
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendments in Group 7. Tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Pharma and Lord Lucas and ably introduced by the noble lady, Baroness Cass. As I think there has been consensus once again on a consistent identifier for children also referred to as a single unique identifier. It has long been recognised as a powerful tool to improve information sharing across agencies. It featured prominently in both The Independent Review of Children's Social Care and the Children's Commissioner's family review.

With both describing its potential to and I quote, ensure data can be easily, quickly and accurately linked. The reality is that without a consistent identifier professionals are forced to rely on a patchwork of variable data, names, dates of birth, addresses, all of which has been pointed out today can be changed, can be misspelled or be incomplete. This not only slows down the process but increases the risk of mismatches and missed opportunities to intervene earlier. If we are serious about improving multiagency working and safeguarding outcomes then we must be equally serious about the infrastructure that underpins it.

Consistent identifier is not a silver bullet but it is a foundational step towards more integrated responsive and effective support for children and families. Turning to the amendments and I recognise the spirit in which they have been proposed and I will I think answer almost all of them, all of the questions and in fact I will be more ambitious than that. I will answer all of the questions in my response. Turning to amendment 15 -- amendment 50 which provides an opportunity for a broader and welcome discussion on a consistent identifier, this amendment however seeks to remove the provision for a consistent identifier the children despite it being a clear manifesto commitment.

I understand why that is the case. But in response to that probing amendment we have deliberately made provision for the specification of a consistent identifier through regulations rather than on the face of the bill. This allows us the necessary flexibility to pilot for example at the moment the use of the NHS number and to address the wide barriers to effective information sharing and to assure the noble Lady Baroness Barran, we do recognise in the piloting the need to ensure this can be implemented for all organisations including some of the smaller organisations she identified.

We will test this through the piloting. Let me be clear, we will proceed only when we are confident in the benefits, the costs, the security and governance costs, the security and governance As outlined in my previous response in group 5, we are exploring the suitability of using the NHS number as the consistent identifier, with a series of tests -- test and learn pilots. Turning to amendment 54, which seeks to clarify what is meant by a similar set of identifiers that is of general application, this wording is not new.

It mirrors the language used in the health and language used in the health and social -- Health and Social Act.. This is about consistency, familiarity and interoperability, ensuring that the system we built for children aligns with existing frameworks and supports safe, effective information sharing. Turning now to amendment 55, which seeks to explicitly rule out the use of any physical identifiers, such as tattooing or electronic tagging. Can I just say I'm not laughing because I don't think this is an important point but because it is so far away from any intention that I can absolutely, categorically reassure the house that this government has absolutely no intention of introducing a consistent identifier introducing a consistent identifier in any physical form such as HR to -- -- such as a tattoo.

This identifier is to be included in information processing in relation to a child. It allows information to be identified and recognised more clearly across organisations. There is nothing to suggest nor any basis to infer that it would be physically attached to a child in anyway. attached to a child in anyway. Turning to amendment 56, I welcome the intention behind this amendment to ensure that the governance of a consistent identifier is both important and transparent. Let me be absolutely clear.

These clauses do not require, nor do they imply the creation of a central register for children. There is no intention to establish a national register. And the noble Lord, Jackson did take us through of contact -- law Jackson took us through the history of Contact Point. This consistent identifier is to enable us to link information. It is not intended to feed information into a database, the nature of which I can understand some of the concerns around.

It must fill -- fully comply with data regulation. Such, this amendment would simply duplicate existing legal requirements, which are already robust and well established. I do take the point about what happens at the age of 18. Of course, as the noble Lady Baroness Cass identified, if the consistent identifier is the NHS number, then that would obviously continue into adulthood. Yes, I can assure the noble Lady that we have thought through the implications of what would happen if it were not the NHS number as well.

Turning to amendment 56 -- 57, which seeks to guard against the risk of information being attached to the wrong child when using a consistent identifier, this is a very valid concern. It is one of the problems that are consistent identifier is designed to help solve. We heard how in previous tragic cases, it was exactly the wrong identification or information not recorded directly which was a problem -- recorded correctly which was the problem. Names, date of birth, addresses are prone to error, take time to verify and can lead to mismatches.

This not only delays support but limits the potential for fully integrated services. The accuracy of information is already a core principle of data protection legislation, and practitioners will be expected to uphold the standard. Moreover, where there is any uncertainty in matching a child to their consistent identifier, this is already addressed under clause 16 LB7 of the bill. I fully recognise the importance of maintaining patient confidentiality. Health professionals are often eager to share relevant information earlier to help identify needs and support families.

Many feel uncertain about doing so unless the situation is extremely serious. Point, I think, made by Baroness Finlay early on. That's precisely why subsection 8 is so important. It provides clarity on how these provisions align with the common law duty of confidentiality. Giving practitioners the confidence to act lawfully and appropriately. And in drafting this clause, we have engaged with key health stakeholders, including the General Ethical Council and the British Medical Association, and we will continue to work closely with them as we develop statutory guidance.

Practitioners will still be expected to inform children and families about the information they have shared in line with the existing best practice. And to support them in doing so, we will produce clear, practical statutory guidance to ensure clarity, consistency and confidence in implementation. Turning to amendment 55, which seeks to remove subsection 9, a provision that makes clear that provisions relating to the consistent identifier do not override data protection legislation. Let me be clear that this is an important safeguard.

The new duty sets out the circumstances in which the consistent identifier must be included, but does so within the framework of existing data protection law. That law provides Principles for how personal data must be processed. Principles that remain fully enforced. This is a standard provision, routinely included in legislation that introduces new duties or powers to process personal data. Ensures consistency and legal clarity and it aligns with other measures in this bill. Turning to amendment 60, which probes the penalties that might be introduced for organisations that fail to use the consistent identifier.

Ensuring that the identifier is used effectively is, of course, something that I think there is broad support for in this House. These provisions already allow the Secretary of State to mandate the use of the consistent identifier but only once pilots have demonstrated clear benefit. As with other statutory duties, we will work closely with the relevant regulating bodies to monitor compliance. This approach, grounded in evidence, collaboration and phased implementation, is the right one, and at this stage we don't believe penalties are necessary in order to promote the use of the consistent identifier.

Turning to amendment 62, which seeks to require the Secretary of State to establish a strategy for the accurate and secure election of data obtained under the consistent identifier provisions, can I first responded to the question from the noble Lord Jackson about whether or not we have engaged with the Information Commissioner's Office. I can assure noble Lords we are working closely with the ICO. ICO is clear that data protection does not get in the way of safeguarding and promoting the welfare of children and young people.

In fact, data protection law allows practitioners to share information when needed to identify children who need safeguarding or health welfare needs. Provides a framework that enables the sharing of information in a fair, proportionate and lawful way. We will continue to engage with the ICO and expect to work closely with all sectors for the effective implementation of both the duty and the exercise of the power to specify a consistent identifier and the agents required -- and the agencies required to use it.

Those subject to required to use it. Those subject to these duties are already required to comply with existing data protection legislation, which does set out clear and robust rules for the secure unlawful processing of personal data. Just to reiterate, it is not the intention to use the consistent identifier to develop a database. I hope, therefore, that some of the concerns expressed by some noble Lords are alleviated by that. Following the piloting phase, we will issue statutory guidance to provide necessary detail on how these new duties should operate in fact this, including how data should be handled securely and accurately.

Turning to amendment 63, which seeks to place timelines on limitation. As I've outlined previously, there are a number of delivery questions that must be answered through pilots before we can confirm via regulations identifier to be used and the organisations required to use it. These include technical and legal considerations, such as data security, monitoring and oversight, cost and IT system compatibility. It would not be prudent to pre-empt the outcomes of these pilots by placing a timeline on the face of the legislation first of doing so risks undermining the careful evidence- based approach we are taking.

$$TRANSMIT@$$JOIN, this is a manifesto commitment and we are determined to deliver on it. That's why we have taken swift action to begin piloting in Wigan local authority and deliver the provisions in this bill. Turning to amendment 63 A which will enable consequential amendments to ensure that the consistent identifier is established and recorded at the earliest appropriate moment. I agree it is important that the consistent identifier is allocated at birth or as soon as possible for children born overseas.

It is necessary it is recorded accordingly. As has been made clear in the other case, the requirement to use the consistent identifier will apply to all children from birth up to the age of 18. The Department, as we've said, is currently piloting the use of the NHS number as the consistent identifier. It is considered the most universal option with the widest data coverage and known data quality. Through these pilots, we are also testing limitations and coverage, particularly for children who may not be captured through standard NHS registration processes.

Following the pilot, we will of course consider whether any legislative changes are needed to ensure full coverage of whichever identifier is ultimately chosen. And here, I think the noble Lady also talked about children who had come from overseas. We are, of course, working through the implications of those children who come from overseas, perhaps as unaccompanied asylum seeking children where we would certainly expect that at the point at which they were being cared for by children social care, the registration of them with the GP in the case of the NHS number would prompt them to have an NHS number.

There are also issues around adoptive children who change their NHS number. We are also working through that carefully. The point on whether or not it would be possible to produce draft breaks along this. The reasons I've outlined around both the current piloting and the issues that we are working through on that, I think it probably would be more appropriate for those regulations to be based on the learning that we have from that piloting and from working through those issues.

Are not going to commit to introducing draft regulations alongside this legislation, but I hope I have gone some considerable way to reassuring noble Lords about some of the details around the implementation and the scope of what is being proposed here. I hope noble Lords will then feel able to withdraw

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How many wrong NHS numbers other each year and is there a viable and reliable process for sorting that out if it happens? That's not something which I have

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That's not something which I have the answer to. I thought I was doing quite well but no, I haven't got the answer to that one. If it's possible answer to that one. If it's possible to find it out I will let the noble Lady know. Lady know.
17:31
17:32
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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Amendment by leave withdrawn. Amendment 51 Baroness Barran.

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I think my remarks on this group have shrunk somewhat thanks to the have shrunk somewhat thanks to the ministers earlier reply so I think this is really an opportunity for this is really an opportunity for her to confirm and clarify some of her earlier comments in relation to her earlier comments in relation to her earlier comments in relation to the use of the NHS number which is stressed through my amendment 51, stressed through my amendment 51, and I think shares the aims of amendment 52 which Baroness Walmsley presented in the name of Lady Tyler presented in the name of Lady Tyler of Enfield earlier.

The context for considering this group of amendments considering this group of amendments is the long debate that has run for many years about whether or not there should be a consistent identifier for children and if so, what that number should be. I know that this is something Baroness Tyler has actually campaigned on very actively over many years so I'm sure she is here with us in spirit. I was very reassured to hear the Minister say that there wouldn't be a database and therefore some of the concerns surrounding contact point and other similar projects we don't have to worry about today.

As your Lordships house knows the Children's Commissioner and leading children's charities all support this move and believe that a consistent identifier will enable a child to be identified with more confidence across the multiplicity of information management systems that we know exists, and therefore allow information to be shared more efficiently and securely when consent has been received or a safeguarding decision has been made to do so. Rightly, the assumption in their statement is that information can only be shared with consent.

But as we discussed earlier there will be cases, sorry to be fair or a safeguarding decision has been made so implying there is no consent, so obviously this will apply in both cases. My amendment seeks to do two things. Firstly it would put on the face of the bill that the consistent identifier would be a child's NHS number. Many commentators on the bill have said it's important to do this rather than leaving it to regulations, and we do need to be clear that the government isn't tempted by another major IT It would allow the Secretary of State by regulations to make provision relating to the consistent identifier so our intention is to get clarity on the face of the bill that it is the NHS number, but then give the Secretary of State the flexibility she needs to keep the approach up-to-date, and I know the Minister has said, I don't want to put words into her mouth, that it's the government is exploring using the NHS number and I think it looks like it's the front-runner, that's definitely not the word she used but I wonder whether she could just elaborate a little to the extent that she feels able whether it is really the NHS number or whether there is anything else realistically in contention, and if that pilot therefore wasn't successful, how much time wise and moneywise does this set us back? Other noble Lords in earlier groups have mentioned the limitations of the NHS number, of course children who don't have one A constructive way through that has also already been given and also in relation to adopted children, I know there are real concerns that adopted children should have a single NHS number and it shouldn't change.

I felt like I was a hopeful hint behind her words, maybe she can expand on that. I think there have been cases where changing numbers and not having that history of a child's health is actually not in the best interests of the child. It would be good to hear the noble Baronesses reflections on the concerns expressed also by my noble friend Lord Jackson about families that might be driven away from registering with a GP because of concerns about how their data might be used, thus preventing access to basic healthcare for their children, how real a risk does she believe that to be? Either way we think those risks pale in comparison with another new IT project and the number created purely for these purposes.

If I have understood correctly that the NHS number is the front-runner, could she expand a little more on the Wigan pilot, it is -- is it the only pilot the government is intending to run, how long will it run for, will there be others, will they be evaluated, could you give us any hint on a timeline? I assume there will be no

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Until that work is complete, but with that I beg to move. Amendment proposed, clause 4 page

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Amendment proposed, clause 4 page 7 leave outlines 21 through 27 and insert the words as printed on the marshalled List. I would like to support these amendments in this group and
17:39
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)
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amendments in this group and strongly congratulate the government for having picked up the concept of a new identifier, I was part of the group with Baroness Tyler on previous legislation when we didn't get there and we were told that one of the reasons was that the Department of education couldn't see how they could do that link with health facing the Department of education are being involved, is particularly cheering. I will make a case quite strongly for the NHS number rather than anything else, partly because I think we need to learn lessons from other number systems, and if you just look at hospital records, different hospitals have different numbers and then there is the NHS number, and that has resulted in models.

In all kinds of clinical models and potential errors. The other thing is that children move round. People don't stay in the same area all the time and the NHS number waves with them and when they moved to a new area, and they register for example with the GP and then they go to register with the school if they have got one number then if they have been major concerns, then eventually those case notes will come through and people will become aware.

Because I am afraid, going back to the experience I had previously, sometimes we found that the families with the highest risk were the ones with multiple addresses. And really out-of-town different cities, the other advantage is that we do have devolved healthcare systems but we have a unique NHS number. Moving between Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England will allow that number to persist, that's not having a central database, it is simply saying that the numbers there, children's names change and the other thing that changes is the known as.

So they may be known by one name but actually the number little bit like the genetic make up is there. Then it is fixed which is really helpful. I think it will also avoid the problems of lots of children with the same name which is where mixups happen, and I have to say I am from Wales and we do have a lot of David Jones's and a lot of David Evans, and quite a few David Williams as well.

Let alone Sian's and Kerry's. Great names, but if you are trying to differentiate between them you've got to be really them you've got to be really careful. The other final reason I think this is particularly important is over transition and children who have learning difficulties and neuro divergences because transition is an extremely difficult time for children, those late teens, hormones are kicking in all over the place, all kinds of things are happening, the relationships with those people who have been there carers through childhood changes and actually sometimes they are at particular risk during those times, particularly during puberty if they have got learning difficulties.

I really do hope that the pilot with the NHS will continue and I think when the Minister responds it would be very helpful to know whether in those pilot areas, I hope it's more than one, with the evaluation, what kind of numbers are happening so that it's a sufficiently powered study to be a valid pilot, and where rejections have come from. So who has been non-compliant with being engaged? Because I think there may be a bit of education needed, sense of threat from it, because I think it will make all the safeguarding easier for people who have responsibility for children.



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I wasn't going to intervene but hearing my noble friend I can't help but recall having to deal with some
17:43
17:44
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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Speaking as a Smith can I say that those of us with very popular names recognise the points made both by Baroness Finlay and Lord Meston although obviously not in quite the same way. Can I also before starting say to the noble Lady Baroness Neville-Rolfe that there are no publicly available figures specifically detailing how many incorrect NHS numbers are issued annually. If they were obviously I would have them I fingertipped. The personal demographic service is responsible for managing and correcting NHS number issues including duplicates, missed assignments and demographic errors but those numbers are not publicly available.

In rising to speak to these amendments can I perhaps start, because the noble Lady Baroness Tyler isn't with us, to nevertheless... Agree with Baroness Finlay that she, Baroness Tyler, has had a long record of campaigning for this as has the noble Baroness. I think there are many people who expressed support for this but there has clearly been a strong campaign led by Baroness Tyler and I, we led by Baroness Tyler and I, we I also thank Baroness Finlay for realising we have in this case managed to get some cross government work between the DfE and the Department of Health.

I think it would be wrong for me to say, behalf of the team it is always been easy and straightforward. Nevertheless, it has been happening and that is really important. This group of amendments does obviously relate to the specification of the NHS numbers. The consistent identifier, putting it on the face of the bill. I do acknowledge that the NHS number is widely regarded as the most obvious and practical choice, for a consistent identifier, for children. It is universal.

Assigned at birth to almost every child in the UK, making it one of the most consistently applied identifiers, across the public sector. As other noble Lords have identified, that does solve some of the problems, with other numbers. It offers high data quality and broad coverage. Reducing the use of duplication or error and is already in use across a wide range of healthcare settings. It supports interoperability, being embedded in systems used by GPs, hospitals and public health services. This makes it far easier to link data across agencies.

Something which is obviously absolutely vital for effective safeguarding and early intervention. Broadly robust data protection standards, it is not publicly visible and its use is timely controlled, aligning well with the principles of confidentiality and security, that underpin this legislation. Perhaps at this point I could also respond to a point, I think that was raised, earlier. To provide reassurance, that the use of the NHS number would have caused not imply access to any health records, related to that particular number.

That is a really important principle of its use, as a consistent identifier. Finally, it is likely the most cost-effective choice. By building on an existing system we would avoid the complexity and expense of creating a new identifier from scratch. Something that I know will be welcomed by both practitioners and the public purse and members of your Lordships' House. However, despite these clear benefits, I do think it is right that we are proceeding with some care. Currently piloting the NHS a number as a consistent identifier.

And it wouldn't be prudent, I think to pre-empt the outcome of that work. We will proceed only when we are confident that its benefits cost, security and governance. This approach allows us to be certain that the consistent identifier will achieve the desired outcomes, before mandating its use. But, I was asked about whether or not it was the intention to do lots of other pilots. I think it would be fair to say that, without going too far, we are not piloting a whole range of different options here.

We are piloting the NHS a number, to see that it works. With all of the provisos that I have said. And, and, in order to make sure that it achieves the desired outcomes, before mandating its use. It is also, of course consistent with the approach taken for the adult identifier in Health and Social Care Act 2012, which provided the legislative framework for the NHS number to be specified, fire regulations. I will just take up the point, made by the noble lady Baroness Barran about adoptive children.

I think actually there are conflicting views about whether or not adoptive children should or should not have eight new NHS number, at the point at which they become adopted. Obviously there are those that are concerned about the continuity of medical information, for that child. There are also those that are concerned about whether or not, for a child making a new start with a new family, it would enable birth parents to identify them. I think there are, all I say about it is that there are conflicting views about whether or not there should be about whether or not there should be a consistent NHS number there.

That isn't to say that there aren't ways around that that are being worked through. And it isn't to say that the NHS number isn't, for all of the reasons I've suggested a very strong contender. I think the noble Lady asked me, but I think the approach that has been taken in piloting is an appropriate way to do it. Just to reiterate, a point made earlier, it isn't necessary for everything to be determined, before the, if it were to be the NHS number. That could start to be used.

We can have an incremental introduction of the NHS number. We do not need to wait until everything is sorted. I hope with those reassurances, noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their

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amendments. Before the noble Lady sits down.

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Before the noble Lady sits down. I come as she was speaking, I was I come as she was speaking, I was thinking that child health has been campaigning for a very long time. I campaigning for a very long time. I hope she will be able to confirm that they would involve them in any discussions, any difficulties and discussions, any difficulties and doubts. I think they are going to be
17:51
17:53
Lord Hampton Portrait Lord Hampton (Crossbench)
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I rise to speak to amendment 61 and putting on record my thanks to Lord Anderson. For not only the help of this amendment, but also her creative briefings from the children's charity sector. A group of interested peers. As we have talked about, the SUI a lot. We know information sharing is urgently needed. We do not need any more serious case reviews to tell us so. We know that when a child is interacting with many different services at is important the services communicate with each other.

Particularly disabled children, in support of health services, as well as a special education provision, in the school, which my noble friend, Lady Finlay talked about. A single unique identify can mean a better joined up assessment, a child's needs. A better understanding of the impact, a child's progress and development. This should not be considered for individual children, but children as a population group. A more holistic view of children's needs, across the local area. We need to better commissioning, more holistic view of children's outcomes.

To ensure we can evaluate what interventions work best. Yet, currently the legislation explicitly excludes research. From the mandated purposes of the SUI. Using an SUI across anonymized, linked datasets, could have a transformative effect on identifying risks, across cohorts of children stop conducting research about stop conducting research about This would not add any considerable risk to the children, as the legislation does not change or weaken any existing data protection. Stating explicitly that the duty to share information does not authorise, or require disclosing information if the disclosure would contravene the data protection legislation.

the government's intention for the SUI, appears solely focused on direct service provision. However neighbouring local commissioners and researchers, to use anonymized linked datasets can transform our understanding of the impact of particular interventions, across traditional service boundaries. Information is the new gold. We have already seen how relevant rich data can be used to inform policy in education and health. So why not take advantage of this new source of information, now. Could I also just get the Minister, in her answer to, there seems to be a lot of saying they were not going to be databases,

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if she could define what she means. Clause 4, page 8, leave out the lines 31 to 34.

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lines 31 to 34. I very much welcome the NHS number, so we can get on with datasharing. When I spoke in an datasharing. When I spoke in an earlier group, I explained the point
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Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)
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If I might briefly speak in support of these amendments. And of support of these amendments. And of research. We do not need to have a national database est, in order to do the research. Because, first of all, research has to go through research ethics committees. That is carefully scrutinised. Actually, you could take a representative sample of areas. And use anonymized and properly anonymized data. We can do that now. We can anonymized, rather than the old-fashioned pseudo- anonymized ocean, which wasn't helpful.

In all of these areas, I am afraid I think we lack the evidence that we need, to make sure that all of our services are best targeted to stop and when we are looking at very vulnerable children, then we really do need to know what are the flags that we are currently using, yellow flags, but should we have red flags. Which are the items which actually don't show a correlation, but there has been urban myth that they do correlate.

So that the index of suspicion is appropriately targeted. And if I can pick up on the point made by my noble friend around criteria. It will only be through good research that we will get the good criteria to determine the point at which the trigger and alert, going through, that a child is at risk and that that happens earlier. It may well be that we are missing some really important pointers, at the moment, just because they are not in people's current consciousness.

And there is a real danger in reacting just to what I had called urban myths. had called urban myths.
18:01
Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran (Conservative)
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My Lords, on these benches we are very supportive of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt and his amendment 61. Of course there is a detail to be worked out, although I think we have already heard some encouraging ways about how to use this anonymous data in practice. Clearly if it could be aggregated, or anonymized, in whatever cart, so to speak, it would help us interrogate it and get some answers, to some of the systemic issues that exist in a child safeguarding and welfare.

We are in interested in both parts of the amendment, including commissioning. Having a better understanding of the patterns of safeguarding issues, which children are most likely to be affected are what works. Would be invaluable for practitioners and policymakers, alike. As a noble friend, Baroness Neville-Rolfe said, actually understanding what doesn't work and whether glitches are in the system is equally valuable. And the more transparency we can have on these issues the better, I think, commissioning of services would be.

It did make me think back to my noble friend, Baron Spielman's amendment, 69, I think. On open data standards. I know the noble Baroness said work was going on, in that regard. Although, and if that were successful, that could be shared, for some of the same purposes, as the noble Lord, Lord Hamptons amendment. I wonder if that is not another way through this. If the government is unable to accept the

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Having listened to the amendment it is a very sensible one providing the data can be kept safe. That is
18:03
18:04
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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I hope I can provide some reassurance to noble Lords about this in my response. Amendment 61 does seek to ensure that the consistent identify could be used for research purposes I do understand the concern raised by Lord Hampton and commend him for his persistence in sitting this long in order to raise his amendment. The concern that this may appear to limit the use of the consistent identifier for research which many stakeholders have rightly highlighted and many noble Lords this afternoon have highlighted as a potential benefit.

Just to be clear, these measures make provision for the Secretary of State to specify which agencies must use the consistent identifier and in what circumstances. Importantly this does not prevent consistent identifier from being used for research purposes, provided that any such use is authorised in accordance with data protection and other relevant legislation. We recognise the role of data in improving outcomes for build like babies, children and young people. As I say, this legislation is about when the consistent identifier must be used rather than when it can be used.

As regulations will mandate the number and the organisations required to use it. The consistent identifier could be used for research purposes if authorised to do so in accordance with UK GDPR and the data protection act. We are aware of concerns around this and officials are discussing this with key organisations. I hope that provides some assurance about the possibility of being able to use the consistent identifier. We have in this legislation deliberately prioritised use of the consistent identifier to facilitate the exercise of safeguarding and welfare functions directly.

That's the basis on which we are testing its implementation and benefits through our pilot program. If additional benefits such as those for research are realised we will be in a strong position to explore how this could be facilitated. For the reasons I have outlined and I hope the reassurance I have provided I hope the noble Lord will feel able to

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withdraw his amendment having I hope achieved his objective. I would like to thank everybody
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18:07
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)
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contrary, "Not content". The "Contents" have it. After clause 4 amendment 65, Baroness McIntosh of Pickering.

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Realise I'm coming between the recess at this stage so I baked the houses leave to move and speak to amendment 65. I would like to amendment 65. I would like to declare my interest as patron of the National Association child contact centres and celebrate all the work centres and celebrate all the work that they do. Amendment 65 is intended to be a probing amendment and I would like to thank very and I would like to thank very warmly for their support Baroness Finlay, Baroness Burt of Solihull Finlay, Baroness Burt of Solihull and Lord Meston for kindly and Lord Meston for kindly supporting the purposes and contents of this amendment.

I believe that we of this amendment. I believe that we benefit greatly from having a good benefit greatly from having a good number and variety of facilities for child contact centres, a place where in the event of broken relationship, a breakdown in a relationship or marriage, that the absent parent or carer can spend time with their children in a safe and comfortable environment. There is a particular issue that we try to address in a previous bill which I will come unto in a moment, but to have effective safeguarding of adults and children, particularly from the risk of domestic or harm.

We benefit greatly from the network of child contact centres but they are patchy and I pay particular attention that, especially in the North of England where people have to travel further and that increases the costs of parents and carers in reaching the contact centre in that case. They do provide a crucial role these contact centres, they enable thousands of parents and carers to have contact with their children safely and approximately 20,000 children are visited in this way each year. There facilities are offered both in private law proceedings and by local authorities during public law proceedings.

The amendment before us this afternoon amendment 65 a space very much on a report drafted from research into child contact centres in England by core despite and written in June 2023 as commissioned by the Ministry of Justice. This was required under section 83 one of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021. I would like to pay Folsom tribute to Baroness Finlay for moving the amendment so eloquently and vigorously, she did that time. Putting forward during the passage of that act to the House of Lords at that time.

While the amendment was not agreed to by the government at that time, the government did commit to building the evidence-based and the robustness of current safeguarding policies and practices across contact centres. This amendment reflects that and is based on the results of that research and the recommendations contained in that report. The amendment recognises the fact that there is a high prevalence of referrals to contact centres with a history of domestic. And that the research, reflected in the report that there is at least one referral with a history of Domestic Abuse Act in the last 12 months preceding the publication of that report in June 2023.

I believe that justifies the need for training and management of particularly sensitive nature as set out in the amendment. I hope that the amendment speaks for itself, I won't go through each in turn given the lateness of the hour, but I was delighted to attend the briefing hosted by the Minister and led by the Secretary of State for Education which I think shows the commitment and the interest of the government in this bill and that was appreciated. The Secretary of State and indeed the Minister showed a real interest in this matter and I hope therefore the Minister will see fit to adopt and accept the provisions as set out in amendment

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65. They are needed that she agree to them, and I beg to me. Amendment proposed after clause points at the new clause is printed on the marshalled List.

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on the marshalled List. I support these very useful
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Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)
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these centres are actually really important for children who have come from extremely disturbed backgrounds. One of the things they do need to be able to do is to have contact with the parent with whom it is not safe for them to be in their own custody in another area. But as they grow up they don't have that contact they can end up feeling contact they can end up feeling resentful towards the state, that the state separated them from the parent rather than understanding what has happened.

I won't go into various cases and stories but there certainly are quite a lot to illustrate that. I think the reason that this amendment is important is because we know that there is a lack of basic safeguarding training in some contact centres stop in others it's an extremely high standard. There is variability there for a practice to pick up and escalate concerns, and the challenges faced by the court in identifying safe and affordable contact arrangements and it has already been alluded to, hard power reported 2020 highlighted that child contact centres have a role.

I could speak for a long time about them but I won't, I hope that the amendment does actually speak for itself and that we might be able to have some conversations beyond Committee stage and before report stage about whether there is some way that the government would like to incorporate the principles behind this amendment in the legislation, accepting that they may lock not like the wording as it is on the page at the moment.
18:15
Lord Meston Portrait Lord Meston (Crossbench)
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I would like the government to incorporate the wording of this amendment into the legislation, it seems to me admirable and asked by Baroness Butler-Sloss to indicate her support for it as well. A credited -- accredited child contact centres are safe, neutral places providing for both supported contact unsupervised contact arrangements, that is an important distinction. They allow children in separated families to see and enjoy contact with the non-resident parent and I support this amendment because it recognises and underpins the work done by the National Association of child contact centres.

The latest protocol, issued by the President of the family division urges courts to ensure that they refer families, only to accredited centres. Accredited centres need agreed national standards. For safeguarding, data protection and volunteer and staff checks and training. There is, at present still no legal requirement, any centres to have accreditation and therefore no minimum standards, for unaccredited centres. Even for DBS check. This amendment would rectify that. It is the experience of myself and other family judges and magistrates and officers, good centres are vital to the work done to normalise family arrangements.

Wherever possible. The courts now understand when and how best to use the centres, recognising that they are not necessarily the solution to the most intractable cases and also recognising, as the President has pointed out, a contact centre is to be seen as a temporary arrangement. Stepping stone, to be used for about 3 to 6 months, to include some exit plan, to remove contact away from the centre, when the situation has settled down. The protocol, importantly requires the centre to be provided with court orders and reports, so that they understand what and who they are getting.

Which may include a mother worried that the contact may not be safe enough. Even in a centre. And a father, resentful of the use of a centre which he feels to be unnecessary and rather demeaning. There is also sometimes a problem about meeting the fees charged by the centres, would vary and also travel costs, when they are too far away from one or other parties. In my experience it is gratifying when it works. The parents trust is rebuilt and the children's confidence is increased and the My understanding is that there are in fact only a few unaccredited centres.

If that is correct, it is a sign of the success of the accredited centres and the support they have had from centres are not the answer to all cases a more informal arrangements using suitable family members or friends may not always be safe and the expertise of accredited centres should be recognised and supported.
18:19
18:19
Earl of Effingham Portrait The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)
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I rise to speak to amendment 65 in this group in the name of Lady McIntosh. It has been a valuable discussion, please let me thank all noble Lords of further insightful and knowledgeable contributions. Child contact centres do indeed play an integral role in allowing parents to see their child in a safe environment for both parties involved. It allows parents not only to see their children, which is precious, but can also act as a service to reconnect, following a significant time with no contact.

Wherever safe, possible, parents should be able to see their children and child contact centres allow this to happen. Amendment 6560 introduced regulations onto child contact centres, to ensure that they are accredited, with regards to save Harding and prevention of domestic abuse. Child contact centres appear to be mostly under the umbrella organisation of the National Association of child contact centres. This is a charitable organisation, but whilst these regulations do appear sensible, we would be concerned about the ongoing cost of implementation and cost of implementation and structure.

It will require inspections to take place, which would be a further financial burden and require additional staff to ensure compliance with the standards. We know that charities are already under pressure from increased National Insurance contributions. We do respect, of course the views of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, Lady Bert and noble Lord Lord West. These should operate as a safe and enjoyable place for children to play. We do believe that this amendment has the potential to act as a regular true burden on those very charities who

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are providing the service. Just before the noble Lord sits

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Just before the noble Lord sits down. Can I slightly question his assumption that introspection would be required, at the level he has outlined. Very often you have the outlined. Very often you have the very caring parents, who was extremely worried about the welfare extremely worried about the welfare of their child, or children who was then having contact with another parent about who the House been a parent about who the House been a great deal of concern. If that's a great deal of concern.

If that's a very caring parent finds that the contact centre to which they have been referred has not had mandatory been referred has not had mandatory training and I would expect the Minister to look up, on the Minister to look up, on the internet, details, from a website about the contact centre itself. They are to raise a complaint early and then actually to wait until there is a formal inspection, may be too late. The problem is if you do not require training and set some standards, it becomes extremely difficult for a court, determining what is to happen to a child to be able to say in depth and no weather actually their recommendation and their judgement is going to be in the best interest of the child.

I would respectfully, slightly challenge him, over that and suggest that other people, such as grandparents and aunts and uncles, who are very concerned to about what would have been a tragic situation, in their family, would be very likely to check out whatever the contact centre is and would want to know the standards that should be there, because they can see whether they are happening or not. And a little bit about the Care Quality Commission are doing a spot checks on hospitals.

That's how they get the data. It is not through the formal inspection. Identification of problems could emerge, if this is

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written on the face of the bill. I thank the noble Baroness for

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I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention and contribution. I think it was very interesting to hear, when Lord Meston said that a lot, if not all of the contact centres are accredited. According to centres are accredited. According to the NECC website, DBS checking, the NECC website, DBS checking, provision in place. I take on board what the Baroness is saying and that is why we are having this discussion is why we are having this discussion to get everybody's is viewed and

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come to an agreement. I understand accreditation

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I understand accreditation depends on the centre having been approved by the national association. Accreditation at last, I think for three years.

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Just for point of clarification, just to confirm to my noble friend, just to confirm to my noble friend, what we are asking for, what we asked for in the earlier amendment asked for in the earlier amendment is to have a proper training and management that in those cases, perhaps only one year, but perhaps only one year, but sufficiently important of the domestic abuse position, presenting domestic abuse position, presenting to a child in the centre. The volunteers will be properly trained volunteers will be properly trained and be able to manage the situation.

It is not a case of inspection and increasing fees. It is giving them increasing fees. It is giving them the confidence they know how to deal

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with that situation. I thank my noble friend, Lady McIntosh to her intervention and I McIntosh to her intervention and I very much look forward to discussing further.

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I think that noble Lady, Baroness
18:25
Baroness Smith of Malvern Portrait Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)
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McIntosh is last intervention was actually very interesting and useful for helping us through this amendment. Because I think there is absolute agreement about the need for contact centres. Given the very important work that all noble Lords have recognised that they had done a stop to also be able to safeguard, in the sorts of circumstances that the noble Lady outlined. The question, therefore, is whether or not that is most appropriately done, through the provisions in this amendment, which would require all child contact centres to be a nationally accredited and regulated, in fact, by the Secretary of State.

And for all staff to understand specific training in relation to safeguarding and abuse. If I could, I hope, provides reassurance. Perhaps also outline why I do not think it is necessary in this particular case, for the Secretary of State to be undertaking the regulation and accreditation, in a way in which the amendment, even if not the way in which it has been introduced suggests. We do recognise the importance of child contact centres, in enabling children to spend time and non-resident parent in a safe environment.

We also recognise the enormously important work of the National Association of child contact centres. Which accredits centres, across England and Wales, ensures high standards amongst its members, via its national standards. Which cover point such as risk assessments, safeguarding and hearing the voices of children. It is and I think the noble Lord, Lord Meston identified It is the case that the research commissioned by the Ministry of Justice and completed in 2023, into safeguarding processes in centres actually identified, very limited evidence of unaccredited centres.

In other words, most centres are accredited by the National Association of child contact centres. And, I think, here, we come to the crux of whether or not there are ways of ensuring that children can be safeguarded, in those circumstances. Since the review, in a 2023, which someone noble Lords have referenced into and the report into child contact centres. The Ministry of Justice has worked with the National Association of child contact centres to consider where action can be taken.

And, the national association has now introduced a mandatory coercive control training course, for its members. The organisation has also reviewed and updated its national standards, to take account of the findings of the report and to also revise materials, such as this risk assessment, template. Additionally, the Ministry of Justice has est a child contact centre forum, with representatives from across the family justice system, to discuss the issues facing the sector and its role within the system. In addition, as we have heard, in private law cases.

Judicial critical guidance the President of the family division encourage judges and magistrates to refer families to NECC accredited centres only. This therefore limits the extent to which unaccredited centres are used. I think we have a situation here where we are becoming increasingly confident the NECC see accreditations give us the protections that people rightly want to, rightly want to see and also a situation where there are actually very few unaccredited centres. This amendment, however, would of course be, there would never be any unaccredited centres.

It is worth saying that there are limited circumstances in which unaccredited centres might be used. For example, this could include unaccredited centres for specific and short-term purposes, because of the individual circumstances of the case. An example of this could be when a child has a foster care placement, some distance away, from their nearest accredited contact centre, rather than requiring a child to travel significant distance, to undertake contact. The local authority might assess it to be in their child's best interest, to remain at a location closer to their home.

In doing that, when considering child contact, with parents and children. The local authority must ensure consistency, with safeguarding and promoting their child's welfare. Even where the provision, in that case, was made, via an uncredited centre. The local authority would remain responsible for ensuring the services, the delivery and commission are a good quality. That is carried out through commissioning contracting and processes I would of course also ensure that the way that the centre was operating fulfilled the requirements for safeguarding, but noble Lords obviously concerned Our view therefore is that national accreditation by the Secretary of State is therefore unnecessary.

Children are already Safe through the NAC cc: national standards and where these don't apply through the legal duties placed on local authorities for children in their care. I do recognise that the point being made about how to improve the amount of funding as well being amount of funding as well being provided to child contact centres, the government is committed to supporting this sector. The Ministry of Justice provides £450,000 annually to assist the activities of supported child contact that -- centres was the Ministry of Justice also provides funds directly to support the vital work carried out in the sector particularly as we have heard, the accreditation that is so important for ensuring the standards are maintained.

Officials in the Ministry of Justice continue to work closely with them on its funding needs. Whilst we can't make commitments about future funding before the Spending Review or departmental allocations within the Ministry of Justice have been concluded, there has been as we can see a record of supporting this work. Given these assurances, I think a common view that it what is really important here is that the accreditation or the local or oversight ensures now that in cases of potential Domestic Abuse Act coercion there is the necessary standards in place.

-- Domestic abuse will top I hope Baroness McIntosh will be able to withdraw this amendment.

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I'm grateful to all those who have spoken, the Earl of Dundee, have spoken, the Earl of Dundee, Baroness Finlay, Lord Meston and also support from Baroness Butler-
18:33
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)
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also support from Baroness Butler- Sloss in her absence. Can I just say that Baroness Finlay put her finger on it, it's not so much the accreditation which I am very aware of the protocol which I think is a great step forward, what I would like the bill to do is to reflect where we are in that protocol. I think it would be extremely helpful to have a very short meeting between the authors of the amendment and the noble Lady, because it's not so much accreditation is the fact her predecessor, Lord Wilson felt the evidence was not available at the time of domestic abuse dealt.

The beauty of the core despite report is we now have the evidence of the cases involving coercion and other forms of domestic abuse and we don't think necessarily that that is being sufficiently catered for by all the contact centres. We want them all to work to do the same standards whether they are private facility or public facility, and I think it is that I would like to have the opportunity to take forward with the noble Lady. As Baroness Finlay indicated perhaps the wording I've come up with might not be the most sophisticated so would be a wonderful opportunity to have that on the face of the bell.

For the

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moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment at this stage. Is at your Lordships pleasure that the amendment is withdrawn? Amendment by leave withdrawn.

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Amendment by leave withdrawn. I beg to move at the House be resumed. The question is that the House be resumed. As many are of that opinion say, "Content", and of the contrary, "Not content". The "Contents" have "Not content". The "Contents" have "Not content". The "Contents" have I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.
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