Baroness Kramer
To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the current capacity and efficacy of the law to provide confidentiality for whistleblowers and to protect them from retaliation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)
My Lords, whistleblowers play an important role in shining a light on wrongdoing in public life. They need confidence that they will be taken seriously and will have legal recourse if subjected to detriment or dismissal for making a protected disclosure. There are already day-one rights for workers, but we intend to strengthen whistleblowers’ protections.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
My Lords, whistleblowers who are defined as workers, and therefore protected by the existing law, still fail to win 96% of their cases in employment tribunals because of evidentiary requirements. They are financially ruined by cases that can drag on for years and, even if they win, their careers are destroyed because the tribunal does not acknowledge blacklisting. Will the Minister commit to an office of the whistleblower to ensure genuine protection for whistleblowers and proper investigation of tip-offs—to avoid a repeat of Horizon Post Office, Grenfell, financial mis-selling, Letby and Al Fayed, to name but a few?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The noble Baroness is absolutely right to raise those cases. We all take those issues very seriously, and we have debated them here in the Chamber on many occasions. There should not be a need for anybody to whistleblow; people should have their concerns taken seriously in the first place. This Government are absolutely determined, from the top, to make sure that people who have concerns at the workplace are able to raise them without the detriment to which the noble Baroness refers. With regard to an office for the whistleblower, there are a number of ideas around this. We are looking at the role and remit that such a body could have. There will be a need to look at the cost, role and function of a potential new body, but we are looking at all the ways we can ensure that whistleblowers are protected at the workplace, as they should be.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, alongside the essential statutory protection of whistleblowers, the current director of the Serious Fraud Office has repeatedly emphasised the importance of offering incentives to the whistleblowers. My noble friend will be aware that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, in May, when he was talking about a crackdown on money laundering and corruption, stated that a Labour Government would
“launch a new whistleblower reward scheme to incentivise and encourage sources to step forward”.
Can my noble friend the Minister outline where the Government’s thinking is on balancing the need for these incentives, as well as the existing legal protection?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, we are continuing to look at the whistleblowing regulations. We understand that there may be a need to review them further; a review was carried out by the previous Government. But I reiterate the point I made earlier: there should not be a need for whistleblowers to come forward; they should be protected in the workplace to come forward with their concerns. This requires leadership from the top in every department to make sure that those concerns are heard and acted upon properly. That is what we intend to do across government—make sure that people do not have to resort to whistleblowing to make sure the terrible incidents they are shining a light on finally come to light.
Lord Cromwell (CB)
My Lords, non-disclosure agreements are protective of the confidentiality of wrongdoers. They are frequently employed against whistleblowers. Is the Minister confident that non-disclosure agreements that are not consistent with the public interest, including those concealing criminal activity, are and will be non-enforceable in our courts? If she is not confident of that, will the Government bring forward appropriate legislation?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The noble Lord is right, but we have already noted the concerns about the misuse of non-disclosure agreements. We share his concern, because they are being used to silence whistleblowers and cover up sexual harassment and discrimination. I stress that there are existing legal limits to how NDAs can be used in an employment context, which means they are void and unenforceable in certain circumstances. The use of NDAs is not something we would support and, if there were ways of limiting it, we would do so.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, is it possible to ensure with legislation that any company that victimises whistleblowers or trade union members could be banned from taking any public sector work in future?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
We are looking at the way we give future government contracts; that is a huge piece of work that is taking place. I will certainly take the noble Baroness’s point on board and see whether that has a role. We want to make sure that the allocation of public funding to organisations is done on a fair and transparent basis.
Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)
My Lords, this is not just a situation facing the private sector; the public sector also has significant issues of whistleblowing. This year the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care pledged before the election—I am aware that plenty of pledges were made before the election, so the Minister may be confused about this—that NHS managers who silence and scapegoat
“will never work in the NHS again”.
Has that goal been achieved? If not, when do the Government intend to achieve it?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
As I say, we are absolutely committed to lead from the top on this issue. That includes in the health service where, as the noble Lord said, there have been some terrible examples of professional staff being discriminated against and losing their jobs. I am sure that the Secretary of State for Health is working on this issue, and I hope to be able to come back to the House in due course and update noble Lords on the progress being made.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, last week I chaired a meeting upstairs with about two dozen whistleblowers, who each spoke about their experiences in the public sector and the private sector and their appalling treatment from their employers. Many of them lost their homes, partners and jobs, and there was no fair trial or hearing. Does my noble friend not agree that more needs to be done? Will she look carefully at the Bill promoted by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, to set up a whistleblowing office so that everybody knows where to go? Otherwise, we are never going to have a one-stop shop that is safe for whistleblowers, which is surely what we need.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
As I say, we are looking at the calls for an office for the whistleblower. It is a proposal that I know attracts a great deal of support. We are considering other ideas as well, but we want to make sure that all the individuals my noble friend talks about have somewhere they can go and have their complaints taken seriously. We understand that. That requires changes in process and in procedure, but ultimately in culture so that these individuals are taken seriously. We will drive that forward and we will require employers to take these issues seriously, but for the moment we are still working on whether we need a specific office for the whistleblower.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, on 29 July I submitted a Written Question to His Majesty’s Government to ask
“what payments they have made to whistleblowers in the NHS in each of the last five years (1) as part of non-disclosure agreements reached through out-of-court settlements, and (2) as the result of a decision by an employment tribunal”.
I was very surprised by this part of the reply on 6 August:
“The Department does not hold the information requested. National Health Service organisations are independent employers and have their own policies and procedures in resolving workplace disputes, which should be aligned to current employment law and good human resources practice”.
Does the Minister agree that such an approach does not meet the need for public accountability and public audit, and that the Government and the public should know what sums are being spent, including legal costs?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
The noble Lord makes an interesting point. I will take that back to the Secretary of State and discuss it with him further.
Lord Patel of Bradford (Non-Afl)
My Lords, if we go down the road of an office of the whistleblower, which is an excellent idea, could the Minister take back that we need to put something in legislation to protect whistleblowers who are attacked in a vile way on social media, to the point of almost committing suicide? We need really strong protections.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My noble friend makes an important point. I cannot emphasise enough how important these things are. We need to protect whistleblowers and make sure that their concerns are taken seriously, and we need to create a culture in which their views are respected rather than denigrated.