Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting)
Thursday 10th October 2024
(6 days, 13 hours ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 View all Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 10 October 2024 - (10 Oct 2024)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 5 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 12 / Noes: 3 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 4 / Noes: 12 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
Good morning. I have some reminders for the Committee. Please set your electronic devices to silent. No food or drink is permitted during sittings, apart from the water provided, still or fizzy. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members could email their speaking notes, or alternatively pass their paper notes to the Hansard colleague in the room, to my left.
We now begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill. The selection list for today’s sittings is available in the room and shows how the selected amendments have been grouped for debate. Amendments grouped together are generally on the same or similar issues. Decisions on each amendment are taken when we come to the clause to which the amendment relates. Decisions on new clauses will be taken once we have completed consideration of the Bill’s existing clauses—saved by the bell, maybe.
I remind the Committee that the Member who has put their name to the lead amendment in a group of amendments is called to speak first. In the case of a debate on clause stand part, I will normally call the Minister first to introduce the clause. Members who wish to speak in any debate should indicate to me that they wish to do so. At the end of a debate, I shall call the Member who moved the lead amendment, or the Minister in the case of a clause stand part debate, to speak again in conclusion.
Before Members who move an amendment or new clause sit down, they will need to indicate whether they wish to withdraw the amendment or to seek a decision. If any Member wishes to press a grouped amendment to a vote once we have disposed of the lead amendment, they should indicate that in the course of their speech on the group.
Clause 1
Great British Energy
Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)
I beg to move amendment 8, in clause 1, page 1, line 3, at end insert—
“within 6 months of the day on which this Act is passed.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause stand part.
New clause 1—Energy efficiency reporting—
“(1) Within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and every 12 months thereafter, Great British Energy must report to Parliament on its progress towards the object of improvements in energy efficiency set out in Clause 3(2)(c).
(2) The report mentioned in subsection (1) must include—
(a) the means by which energy efficiencies are being made;
(b) an assessment over time of the energy efficiencies made; and
(c) the projected impact on consumer energy bills.”
Pippa Heylings
Thank you, Chair, and all Committee members. I apologise for being a moment late. My hon. Friend the Member for Bath will be slightly late too, but will be in Committee.
As we heard in the oral evidence, we need a lot of reassurance before we can be supportive of the scope of the Bill, because it is so wide-ranging. We understand that flexibility is needed, but so much comes down to the strategic priorities and the business case. As the Bill stands, there is no deadline for the production of the critical delimiting document in which the Secretary of State will state the strategic priorities to reassure businesses, communities, bill payers and Committee members that Great British Energy, within its broad and wide-ranging objects, will focus on the innovative and on what is not duplicating or perverting the market and is not uncompetitive, to ensure a fair playing field and that communities have a say and a part to play in the generation of energy, and receive the benefits as well.
All that will come out in the Secretary of State’s strategic priorities statement. I therefore propose some level of certainty for everyone—business in particular—by putting in a deadline for the publication of the statement, which we suggest should be six months.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)
Good morning, everyone. It is a pleasure to be back in Committee. I will begin by addressing amendment 8, tabled by the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire, before moving on to why clause 1 should stand part of the Bill.
The amendment seeks to specify the time within which Great British Energy will set out its priorities. For reasons I shall set out, we will not support it. First, though, it is important to say that the Government have already moved at pace on a range of energy-related matters, but particularly on Great British Energy. We have shown very quickly, in not quite yet 100 days in office, that we are moving forward to set up Great British Energy, and there will be no further delays in doing so. It is in our interests—indeed, as the hon. Member rightly said, it is in all our interests—that we move quickly on setting it up.
We have said clearly that we want Great British Energy to deliver a publicly owned, operationally independent energy company, and we are here today, within 100 days of Labour forming a Government, to make that happen. That work will continue. With the progress we have already made, and with a commitment that we want to quickly get Great British Energy delivering what we are setting it up to deliver—it is not at all in our interests to drag our feet—there is really no need for a specific timeline. I therefore hope that the hon. Member will not press her amendment to a vote.
Clause 1 allows the Secretary of State to designate a company as Great British Energy. Legislation often provides for a company that is set up under the Companies Act 2006 to be designated for certain statutory purposes, especially when substantial amounts of public money are involved, or where the company is being asked to fulfil a particularly important role. A recent example from the previous Government is the legislation on the UK Infrastructure Bank, which includes a similar provision.
Clause 1 simply sets out in detail the processes and arrangements to allow the Secretary of State to designate a company as Great British Energy. Perhaps most importantly, the clause allows Great British Energy to be founded as a publicly owned company, which gets to the heart of what this Government are committed to doing: giving the public a stake in Great British Energy. The clause protects the principle of public ownership by making explicit that the company would terminate if it ceased to be wholly owned by the Crown. I therefore commend clause 1 to the Committee.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
I rise to speak briefly to new clause 1, which is grouped with amendment 8 and clause 1. It is very straightforward. It will be for Government Members to consider whether it is appropriate for the House of Commons to be in full knowledge and understanding of what the Government seek to do on energy efficiency. They must also consider whether the steps that the Government take in that regard should be reported to this House to ensure that we are fully abreast of the progress that the Government hope to make and how that meets the promises that they as individuals made to their constituents prior to the election. We as parliamentarians can collectively hold the Government to account on those promises and ambitions.
In discussions on further amendments, we will talk in more detail about the promises that were made, and hopefully the Government might be minded to agree to include some of those promises in the Bill. For now, though, I think it worth while for Members to consider the role that this Parliament plays in scrutinising this Government in a constructive fashion.
Pippa Heylings
No one can deny that, as the Minister said, we have seen huge progress coming through immediately, and commitment from the Government. I thought we would have heard from the oral evidence that certainty is critical, and therefore that giving a deadline and a timeframe in which people and businesses could expect to see the statement would be good reassurance. As the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South indicated, it would also be good to have some kind of revision. I hear from the Minister that the Government will not accept the amendment, so I will not press it to a vote, but it should be considered.
Michael Shanks
On the hon. Lady’s point, I reiterate our absolute commitment to move faster—frankly, far faster than in six months—to deliver the statement of strategic priorities. We will talk about that later in relation to further amendments.
On the point from the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, we do not think the theme of the new clause is particularly important in this part of the Bill. It is important, of course, that the aim of Great British Energy is to be part of what will deliver cheaper bills for all, and efficiency, but it is only part of the story. Of course, in the election campaign we made it clear that across Government—yes, through Great British Energy, but also through a series of other measures, including our reforms to planning and including a lot of areas on which I am working closely with his colleagues in the Scottish Government to expedite progress—we will deliver cheaper bills.
The right hon. Gentleman must acknowledge, despite his not supporting Great British Energy so far—I hope that he and his colleagues will change their minds when the Bill comes back—that on this point it is in fact an important vehicle. [Interruption.] He looks as if he does not agree with what I said. He did not vote for the Bill on Second Reading, so I took it from that that he did not support it. It is important that he recognises that Great British Energy has a really important part to play in delivering what I have set out. His colleagues in the Scottish Government certainly think so, which is why we have been working so closely together on the matter.
Stephen Flynn
I am sure that the Minister, as an esteemed and well-versed parliamentarian, will understand that the voting system in this House means that should a Member choose not to vote in favour of something, that does not mean that they are against it, as he is outlining. I would hate for him to inadvertently suggest to the public that something is the case when it is not the case. As he knows, I of course welcome the set-up of GB Energy, but what I want to see is the scrutiny that the new clause would obviously provide.
Michael Shanks
I am delighted to hear the right hon. Gentleman’s wholehearted support for Great British Energy. That is fantastic. I did not know that, so that is wonderful, and I thank him for that great support. It has really cheered my whole day, in fact, that I now have his support. Things can only get better, as we say.
On the right hon. Gentleman’s specific point about efficiency measures, we are already taking a number of steps on that matter in other areas. For example, our warm homes plan will transform homes across the country, making energy in individual homes cleaner and cheaper to run. We announced a local grants programme to support that. Of course, that does not apply in Scotland, where such work is devolved. I think the Scottish Government could probably do more in this policy area. The Scottish Government have made significant budget cuts to projects—£133 million was taken out of energy efficiency measures in 2022 and 2023—so I think work could be done across the board on the matter.
On the point about updating Parliament, it is really important that we are talking about a publicly owned energy company. It will be independent of Government, but of course it will be responsible to Parliament in the way that any other independent companies wholly owned by the Secretary of State are. A copy of the strategic priorities will be laid before Parliament. Any directions given to Great British Energy by the Secretary of State will be laid before Parliament. Of course, there are already several other mechanisms that the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, as an extremely well-versed parliamentarian—far more so than I am—knows he can avail himself of.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
In respect of the point that the Minister has just made, and also the point that he made to the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire, who represents the Liberal Democrats, he said that the strategic priorities would be laid before Parliament. Does he have a timescale for that? He said it would be far quicker than six months, so are we talking about before Christmas? Are we talking about before the November recess? Does he have in mind a date when the strategic priorities may be laid before Parliament?
Michael Shanks
If the hon. Gentleman is proposing that the Bill will be through Parliament by Christmas, that would be great—we could move forward. Of course, we need the Bill to have Royal Assent before we can move forward. I welcome his co-operation on making sure that it has a swift passage through the House of Lords and the Commons. We will move as quickly as possible. It is in no one’s interest, let alone that of a Government who are moving as quickly as possible to deliver this, for it to be delayed any further.
Finally, the requirement in new clause 1, tabled by the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, to report to Parliament on energy efficiency measures is unnecessary because there are already many mechanisms for that. We have been consistently clear that Great British Energy will be operationally independent. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will therefore not press his new clause to a vote.
Pippa Heylings
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2
Crown status
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Michael Shanks
We are making great progress—this will be a good day. Clause 2 is straightforward. It ensures that Great British Energy will serve the public as an independent company and operate in the same way as any other UK company, that it will not have any special status, immunity or privilege normally associated with the Crown, and that its property will not be seen as property of the Crown. It will be subject to exactly the same legal requirements as all other companies. That is in line with the vision we had for Great British Energy from the beginning: that it should be operationally independent and an agile market player. We will ensure that it remains that way.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3
Objects
Pippa Heylings
I beg to move amendment 2, in clause 3, page 2, line 18, at end insert—
“(e) measures to increase low carbon and renewable energy schemes owned, or part owned, by community organisations.”
This amendment includes community energy schemes in the objects that the Great British Energy company will be restricted to facilitating, encouraging and participating in.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 9, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) A statement under this section must include as a strategic priority, consistent with Great British Energy’s objects under section 3, measures to be taken to ensure that local communities benefit directly from low carbon and renewable energy projects operating within their area.”
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to set a strategic priority for measures to be taken to ensure local communities benefit from low and renewable energy projects operating in their area.
Pippa Heylings
The objects of Great British Energy need to be wide-ranging and flexible so that it can be innovative and pivot where necessary. But one issue, which the Liberal Democrats also raised during the oral evidence sessions, is community energy: that which is owned, managed and generated by, and brings benefits directly to, the community. We propose this amendment for the Government’s serious consideration because the founding statement for Great British Energy says that local communities will derive benefits. That is not just in the five functions but part of the purpose of Great British Energy. Juergen Maier says in his foreword to the founding statement that Great British Energy will actively co-invest and support communities to generate energy. That is fundamental. As most of the rest of the provision is for large-scale clean energy projects, it is critical to include the amendment in the objects, given that communities are included in the five functions in the foundational statement.
Olivia Blake (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)
I thank the hon. Lady for her opening remarks on the amendment. Is there anything in the Bill that would preclude the kind of support for community energy projects that we have discussed in Committee so far?
Pippa Heylings
The debate so far has all been about the ability to delimit what limits Great British Energy, but that allows for everything else that has not been mentioned. However, it is critical to reassure everybody that Great British Energy is about both large-scale clean energy projects and community projects. I do not think the amendment would change or limit Great British Energy any further; it would add to the understanding of the objects. I do not think it would in any way pervert the flexibility in the wide-ranging objects; it would bring the necessary emphasis and balance between large-scale and community energy projects.
Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)
I rise to speak to amendment 2, tabled by the hon. Member for Bath, which seeks to include community energy in the objects of the Bill. The amendment has gathered support from across the House. I find it encouraging that so many hon. Members understand the important role that community energy schemes play in our energy sector and our mission to make Britain a clean energy superpower.
Community energy schemes currently generate 0.5% of the UK’s electricity. However, studies by the Environmental Audit Committee show that they could grow twentyfold in the next 10 years. They not only power many homes but reduce our dependence on energy imports and support the development of critical local infrastructure, and of course they create local jobs. It is clear to me that community energy schemes play a key part in tackling climate change. I have seen at first hand in my constituency of Monmouthshire great schemes such as the community solar project at Bridges community centre, which saves the centre money, which can then be reinvested in the community.
Further afield, in Bangor Aberconwy, we have Ynni Ogwen, which does fantastic work to produce electrical energy from hydro power using the Ogwen river. Again, the profits are used to fund community and environmental projects in the community. My commitment to community energy is clear, as is the Government’s. We are inviting communities to come forward with projects and to work with local leaders and devolved Governments to ensure that local people benefit from energy production.
Although the amendment is well intended, it is not necessary. The Government and the chair of GB Energy himself made it clear at the evidence session on Tuesday that community energy will be a “core part” of GB Energy.
Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)
I want to join in the conversation about community energy, which I know is very important to the county that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire and I share. Lots of great initiatives are going on there. Having read the amendments and thought about them this morning, I am deeply encouraged by the comments that the Minister and Juergen Maier made in our session earlier in the week.
I think I am the only Co-operative MP here—[Interruption.] I can see my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar indicating that she is one, too. As someone who has worked in the co-operative energy sector for much of my adult life, this is the first time in many years that I have seen a Government genuinely committed to community energy and working with the mutual sector to deliver that. I am proud of the work that the Co-operative party and the Labour party have done to bring forward GB Energy and work with the co-op sector.
In recent weeks, as we have prepared for the Bill, I have met Central Co-op, Midcounties Co-op, Unity, Greater Manchester Community Renewables, and a range of agencies that are fully behind the Bill because they see the power of it. The scale of the Government’s ambition is clear. The Secretary of State himself has said that the local power plan will deliver the biggest expansion of community energy in history. It would also be remiss of us to consider the amendment without acknowledging the local power plan, which is part of GB Energy’s founding statement, which includes a clear commitment from the chair, Juergen Maier:
“We will be investing in community-owned energy generation, reducing the pressures on the transmission grid while giving local people a stake in their transition to net zero.”
The local power plan is also listed in GB Energy’s three initial priorities.
Although I sympathise with, and support and wish to work with, the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire on community energy in Cambridgeshire in the localities that we operate in—it is really important that we keep a focus on that—this is a Bill that will transform our energy. The co-op movement is behind it and communities are behind it. It is important that we drive the Bill forward, so that it enables the local power plan, rather than—as it is almost the festive season—treating it like a Christmas tree, which is what I worry some legislation can become like. There are so many baubles that we could put on this legislation, when we should let the majesty of the tree speak for itself. We should get on and pass it, by Christmas or in six months or however long it takes. Community energy is coming, and we do not need an amendment to tell us it is on its way.
Uma Kumaran (Stratford and Bow) (Lab)
It is really good to see this cross-party support for community energy. I am sure all Members here today can speak to brilliant innovations in their constituencies. I have one in my constituency of Stratford and Bow, Community Energy Newham: its vision, very much like that of the Government, is to provide clean, affordable energy to homes and public buildings across the borough of Newham.
As we heard extensively on Second Reading, GB Energy will be owned by and for the British people, to help to promote energy independence, as well as to maintain Britain’s standing as a global leader. I echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouthshire. The Bill has already baked in the fact that community energy will be possible. We heard extensively from our witnesses that if the Bill does not give GB Energy the ability to innovate and advance, or to be flexible, there may be constraints in the years ahead. That is why we do not need the amendment.
Community Energy Newham is looking to provide our local library with a cleaner source of energy. As I said, many Members have exciting projects in their constituencies. That is why it is so important to maintain this cross-party support for the Bill and get it through as quickly as possible, so that not only our constituents but the whole country can benefit from Great British Energy.
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
I rise to reinforce not just the evidence that we heard from the Minister and Juergen Maier about the commitment to community energy, but the evidence we heard from private companies about foreign Governments that are willing to allow communities and municipalities to take a share in community energy.
None of what is in the Bill or what GB Energy proposes will happen without communities being involved. Communities will have to be involved at every stage —in generation, in transmission and in the purchase of the energy—otherwise we will find ourselves fighting communities every step of the way. It is vital that communities are involved. They are not just knocking at the door; they are taking over.
My constituency, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, has the largest number of community-owned windfarms in the UK. They serve as a template for what could happen across the rest of Scotland and Britain if communities are engaged and take on the challenge of producing their own power.
I was delighted with what the Minister said in the evidence session on Tuesday: GB Energy will be there to enable and help communities to get on the grid, get over the planning obstacles and the legal and financial obstacles that are sometimes in their paths. I think we should allow GB Energy to be set up and to get on with its business, and to enable communities to be engaged and involved not just in the production of energy, but in earning and reaping some of the profit that we will see from the wealth of wind.
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
The witnesses we heard from on Tuesday demonstrated a near-enough consensus that the Bill provides the chair, the board and the executive of GB Energy with the necessary flexibility to make sensible decisions, which include—and as has been backed by the Government and the current chair—the ability to back projects such as community energy. All of us should take reassurance from that.
There is a bigger point of principle on the amendment. We as Members should have the humility to recognise where the limitations of our own expertise reside. We do not want MPs setting the details—dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s—of how GB Energy should operate. The whole purpose of this legislation is to set up an autonomous, dynamic and fast-moving company, wholly focused on the 2030 mission and the Government’s wider aims and objectives for the net zero, energy transition and energy security agendas. We want to provide GB Energy with the full flexibility and freedoms to enable it to do that, and we heard that point from witnesses.
My constituency of Whitehaven and Workington demonstrates the full range of opportunities that GB Energy could support, whether in the earlier stages of research and development of projects, or by linking with nuclear—not just decommissioning but hopefully new nuclear energy. We were home to one of the first offshore wind farms at Robin Rigg, which is an RWE wind farm. That will come to the end of its life, and there are big questions about its future. All the opportunities of west Cumbria demonstrate that we need GB Energy to have full scope and freedom. It should not be for Members of this House to set that scope in detail. The Bill, backed by the witnesses and with the wisdom of the Government, is set up with that intention.
Michael Shanks
Amendments 2 and 9 seek to add provisions on community energy to the Bill. As I have said in a number of answers in Parliament and in our session on Tuesday, support for community energy is something that I absolutely share, and it is clearly shared by a number of hon. Members across the House. It will be an integral part not just of Great British Energy, but of the Government’s entire energy strategy. That is why the local power plan is a key part of Great British Energy’s delivery model, and it goes broader than GB Energy, to every other part of Government policy on energy.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar pointed out, it is essential that communities are involved. It is not a nice-to-have; it is critical. If we are to build the infrastructure we will need in future, we want communities across the country to reap the rewards. A key part of that is community-driven projects and community-owned projects.
Andrew Bowie
Last year, almost to the day, we launched the £10 million fund for community energy projects, building on the success of previous community funds, to be delivered through local energy hubs. How does the Minister envisage Great British Energy working with those local hubs to deliver those community projects that we announced funding for last year?
Michael Shanks
That is a really helpful point. The community energy hubs that already exist are certainly something that we want to build on. The £10 million commitment is welcome. We have committed more than £1 billion to the local power plan over this Parliament, but we are building on what is already there, such as the local hubs. In Scotland, there is the community and renewable energy scheme, where we are already working with the Scottish Government to look at how we can jointly fund the project. It is really important that we work to build on what is already there.
The Government will not be supporting amendments 2 or 9 today. Amendment 2 seeks to insert an additional object to clause 3 specifically about community energy. As a few hon. Members have said, the purpose of the Bill is to set up the confines of Great British Energy as a company in as little detail as possible. We are not seeking to fill the Bill with every possible mechanism the company could use or every possible priority it could have. We are clear that we are setting up the minimum necessary provisions for Great British Energy to function.
My hon. Friend the Member for Whitehaven and Workington made the really important point earlier that we are not seeking to set in train, for however long GB Energy will deliver projects, our objectives right now, in 2024. We want to give it the most minimal possible scope, so that it can go forward in an agile way and move into areas that, at the moment, we may not think are critical. Community energy will change over time—it already has changed with regard to the models we are using.
There is nothing in the Bill that excludes communities at all. The production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy extends to large-scale offshore programmes, but I do not think we should discount communities’ involvement in those. There are some really good models around the world. In Denmark, 20% is now expected for community ownership, so there are models of large-scale projects as well, although as the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire rightly said, much smaller-scale generation projects that directly benefit local communities should sit alongside that.
Amendment 9 would require the Secretary of State to specifically set, as a strategic priority, measures to ensure that local communities benefit from low and renewable energy projects operating in their area. As we will discuss later, the Secretary of State will outline Great British Energy’s strategic priorities to ensure that it remains aligned with Government policy on energy more generally. The first statement, which we will make as soon as possible after Royal Assent—before Christmas, as was said earlier—will focus on driving clean energy deployment, creating jobs, boosting our energy independence and, crucially, generating benefits for UK taxpayers.
We have been clear that that process—I will say more about this later—will include consultation with Ministers in the devolved Administrations. We are already working on community energy with the devolved Administrations in Wales and Scotland, in particular, which are doing great work on it.
Clause 3 sets out the parameters for Great British Energy to carry out the five key functions that we outlined in the plan for it, one of which is to deliver the Government’s local power plan. We are very clear that Great British Energy’s role in delivering the local power plan will be to support and champion local community groups. In my evidence on Tuesday, I built on the comments of a number of our witnesses and said that there are two strands to our proposal. GB Energy will provide some of the funding, but it will also have a critical role where communities can access funding but lack capacity. I am thinking in particular about rural communities and local authorities across the country that previously had in-house energy expertise but are no longer in a position to lead on some of these projects.
There are great municipal schemes across Europe, and we would like to see some of them in this country. That will require GB Energy to provide funding and, crucially, capacity building.
Torcuil Crichton
I am pleased to hear that the Minister has such enthusiasm for municipal and community schemes. There are examples in my constituency of communities that have come together. There are three community-owned estates on the west side of Lewis with a plan for nine turbines generating 43 MW. That could bring in £4 million into that community, but it needs need pump-priming and help to get it there. Similarly, onshore windfarm schemes have been proposed and are in planning, with the offer for municipal and arm’s length companies of local authorities to take shares of up to 20%, as the Minister said. That is the kind of thing that GB Energy could do if we just get through this Bill.
Michael Shanks
I take my hon. Friend’s point in the spirit in which it was intended and not as an attempt to rush me through the rest of these proceedings so we can get the Bill up and running, but we will move at pace. Every time he speaks, he is very good at reminding me that I need to visit those projects in Lewis with him at some point. He is absolutely right that it is important that we give communities, in whatever form—local government, local island communities, villages or towns —the ability to come together with the capacity to deliver on their energy potential.
I fundamentally believe that the Bill is at the heart of what the Government desire to do on the local power plan and community ownership more generally. We are absolutely committed to community energy, including through things such as what the Co-operative party has put forward. There is nothing in the Bill that prevents that from happening. For those reasons, I hope that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire will withdraw her amendment.
Pippa Heylings
It is wonderful to hear hon. Members say how supportive they are of community energy and give examples from their local areas. In Cambridgeshire, the expertise is still there—it is absolutely amazing. We have community energy projects, including wind energy, and a whole village has an off-grid heat network, which is a national case in point.
I ask the Minister once again to take into account the cross-party support for the amendment. It is not a bauble, nor is it about crossing t’s and dotting i’s; it is about public ownership models. At the moment there is real concern, because although we talk about the great things happening, in the latest meetings we have held with advocates of community energy, we have been told that it is in crisis. Although GB Energy is removing the barriers to large-scale clean energy projects, there are barriers to community energy, which is why we have so few new community energy projects, in contrast to the past. We need investment, but it is not just about the money and capacity. It is about the rights—the ownership model and the right not only to generate but to sell locally, with an equal cost to connect.
Torcuil Crichton
I take the hon. Member’s point about rights. Usually, land rights prevent communities from taking a stake in energy projects. Community-owned land, which we have plenty of in the Western Isles and across Scotland, is the key—land that the community has ownership of.
The other problem, which I am sure GB Energy should and will unlock, is access to the grid, to get community companies on to the grid; GB Energy and regulation from the Department should be crucial to achieving that.
Pippa Heylings
I thank the hon. Member for making that point about the cost for communities of connecting to the grid, which makes it completely unviable for them to do so. It is not about capacity; the communities know what they want to do and are ready to do it. Unfortunately, although there is a right to sell energy locally, the cost of connection makes it completely unviable.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
An additional problem is that small community energy projects cannot provide directly—cannot sell directly—to the consumer. That is one of the major problems. Therefore, the Government should really put their mind to it and accept our amendment, so that we can assure our communities that the Government are really serious about this issue. Does my hon. Friend agree?
Pippa Heylings
I very much agree. Indeed, I find it very hard not to agree with my hon. Friend, who tabled the amendment.
We are obviously waiting to see the local power plan. We hope that it contains detail not only about the benefits, as with the Scottish and Welsh examples, but about the ownership model empowering local communities to do this work.
Given the cross-party support for the amendment, I will not withdraw it.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Pippa Heylings
I beg to move amendment 10, clause 3, page 2, line 18, at end insert—
“(e) an emergency home insulation programme with targeted support for people on low incomes, and
(f) the expansion and development of renewable energy and technology.”
This amendment would set objects for Great British Energy of facilitating, encouraging and participating in an emergency home insulation programme with targeted support for people on low incomes, and the expansion and development of renewable energy and technology.
As I understand it, the Bill’s scope has changed, enabling us also to consider the customers in all of this and the benefits to customers from the creation of Great British Energy. For that reason, the issue of home insulation should be considered.
The need for Great British Energy and the demand for the energy that is being created is also generated by the amount of energy that leaks from cold, draughty homes. We are approaching winter now. In my constituency of South Cambridgeshire and, I am sure, in constituencies across the country, including those represented by Members of this Committee, a large number of people, many of them vulnerable, are in cold, damp homes. Although those people may be able, through their local authority, to have some renewable energy features and insulation added to their home, a proper emergency home insulation programme—not just for this winter but for the long term—is not being considered.
As we know from the Climate Change Committee, the calculation of the demand for energy generation changes when we look at the amount of energy lost through heating homes. We would need to generate less energy if we managed our home insulation programme. I therefore think that it is within scope to show not only the price of people’s bills but the standards under which they are living in their homes, and the amount of energy being lost without a home insulation programme. I know that the Government have their warm homes plan, which we will see in the spring, but we should consider home insulation within energy efficiency, given the importance of GB Energy to the consumer.
Olivia Blake
This is a really valuable discussion, even if the amendment does not make it into the Bill. In the last Parliament, I served on the Energy Bill Committee. Conservative Members will remember the hours and hours of debate—it felt like days, months, years—about wider energy policy, and unfortunately there was nothing on reducing home energy use through insulation. I pay tribute to the wonderful Alan Whitehead, who kept us all entertained as the shadow Minister on that Committee. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] He was a very good man and gave a lot to this subject in particular.
Although I understand why the amendment has been tabled, this discussion is related more to wider energy policy than to the setting up of GB Energy. I understand why it has come up and it is good that we are discussing it, because it is a matter not just of energy efficiency but of human health. Sir Michael Marmot published a paper this year, reiterating the very human cost of poor-quality housing and the fact that so many homes in the UK have an energy performance certificate under level C. That is why I am pleased that in the run-up to the election we were championing the warm homes plan. I very much look forward to that, and I think it will cover the concerns of the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire.
The Bill focuses not only on reducing emissions, but on reducing the use of energy within the objects. We have covered the issue with the words “energy efficiency” in clause 3(2)(c). I know that that sounds quite limited, but there is much more to energy efficiency than loss within our homes; it is also about loss of energy within the system, so it is right to have a broader framing of energy efficiency within the Bill.
Andrew Bowie
I will not detain the Committee long, but I want to express the Conservatives’ support for the Liberal Democrat amendment, primarily because of our concern about the impact of the removal of the winter fuel allowance from so many pensioners this winter, and the fact that the warm homes plan, as welcome as it is, will not be up and running until next spring, which leaves considerable concern over what might happen in and around this winter.
Those pensioners should be at the forefront of our mind as we look towards winter and as we are discussing an increase in the number of well-insulated homes in this country—on which, by the way, we had quite a good record when we were in government; we increased markedly the number of homes at EPC level C or above. For those reasons, we will support the amendment if it is pressed to a vote.
Torcuil Crichton
It is difficult to argue against home insulation, but I do not know whether we need legislation or an amendment to the Bill to achieve it, particularly when it is happening already in community-owned power companies such as Point and Sandwick Trust in my constituency. The company raises £1 million a year for its community, and distributed in the last 18 months £250,000 to people living in fuel poverty, to help with home insulation and heating costs. That is the template, the model and the example that GB Energy could help and sustain without need for the amendment.
Andrew Pakes
I share huge empathy with the sentiments behind the amendment, but I believe that the answer to home insulation sits not in the Great British Energy Bill, but in the wider clean power and clean energy mission. I find it quite rich for Opposition Members, who used to be in government, to talk about supporting an emergency home insulation programme when they decimated the apprenticeship programme that delivered the workforce that could actually insulate our homes.
Andrew Bowie
The record of the last Government was that we increased the number of homes that were insulated in this country to EPC C or above from 14% to more than 50% over our time in government. That is a record of which we can be proud. Can we do more? Absolutely—that is one of the reasons why we are actually backing the Liberal Democrat amendment—but I think that to castigate our record as somehow disgraceful, or to say that we did not deliver for the British people, is wrong. I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw or rethink his remarks.
Andrew Pakes
I thank the hon. Gentleman for being kind to me in the first intervention that I have ever taken in this House, but I will stick to my point: that we could achieve so much more in this country. We would be having a fundamentally different conversation about insulation efficiency and renewable energy if we had not gone through the last 14 years, in which budgets were cut. There are young people in my constituency of Peterborough who could have contributed, by moving from blue-collar to green-collar jobs, if we had had a further education system that was functioning and could train them—if we had a home insulation system that had a workforce that could get out and deliver.
Whatever we say in any resolution, motion or primary legislation in this place will not be enacted unless we have a people plan that delivers for it. That is why delivering on this issue should come in a different piece of legislation, even though I have huge empathy with the sentiments expressed by the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
Although I entirely agree with the importance of the warm homes plan, I am getting really concerned that we are losing focus. We are looking to create a Bill that allows the scope and flexibility to ensure—I am glad the Minister mentioned this earlier—that the UK taxpayer gets the best bang for their buck. As the expert witnesses consistently testified, one of the key benefits of the Bill is that it is not overly or unnecessarily prescriptive and allows the scope to develop the strategic priorities, referred to in clause 5, that focus on ensuring that we get this right. I look forward to speaking to the Minister in due course about those priorities. GB Energy will work alongside and in partnership with the private sector, but we must avoid trying to be too prescriptive in a specific Bill focused on this area.
Wera Hobhouse
The hon. Gentleman is a new Member of Parliament; I have been here a little longer. Those of us who have been here longer always want to ensure that something is in statute—in law—because we parliamentarians are always a little wary of leaving it to a further document that may or may not come. We would like to see some assurances in law to ensure that whatever has been promised will actually happen. Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern?
Perran Moon
I am absolutely delighted that the Government are already talking about the warm homes plan. We have a plan, and it is coming through; we have talked about it coming through in spring. Today we are talking about the Great British Energy Bill, and it is really important that we retain the focus on ensuring that the Bill has flexibility, so that we can see the strategic priorities delivering on GB Energy specifically.
Michael Shanks
The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire has rightly and passionately outlined the scandal of people living in cold homes and poorly insulated homes. She is right that it is an absolute scandal.
Stephen Flynn
The Minister is being generous with his time, as always. It is a scandal that people are in cold homes. Why is he supportive of the Government taking away the winter fuel allowance?
Michael Shanks
The right hon. Gentleman is combining two different things there.
Michael Shanks
It is not within the scope of the Bill, but I am happy to answer the question. Whether or not there is a winter fuel payment, people are still living in homes that are poorly insulated, including in Scotland where the right hon. Gentleman’s colleagues have cut consistently, year after year, the budget that delivered insulation programmes in Scotland.
Michael Shanks
They cut more than £100 million last year to plug gaps in their own budget. If we are looking at energy efficiency, the right hon. Gentleman could look closer to home at what his own Government in Scotland are doing.
To return to the Bill, I want to address both paragraphs in the Liberal Democrats’ amendment 10. First, the new object proposed in paragraph (e) would mean that Great British Energy’s objects included facilitating and participating in emergency home insulation programmes. Several of my hon. Friends have pointed out that although those programmes are incredibly important—I will come in a moment on to what the UK Government are already doing on the issue—it is important to detach the Bill from every other part of our energy policy. Although I totally understand the perspective that says, “These issues are important. Let’s put them on the face of a Bill to say so,” it is really important to say that the Bill itself does matter. This is about setting up and delivering the Great British Energy company. It is not the answer to every single part of the energy system. There are places where we are already moving forward on home insulation programmes, such as the warm homes fund, and it would be more appropriate to talk about those matters in that connection.
That is not to downplay the importance of the issue. As a Government, we are committed to taking bold action. Within the first 100 days, my colleague the Minister for Energy Consumers, my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Miatta Fahnbulleh), has outlined the work that we will do on this. The warm homes plan that we have announced is the most ambitious such plan ever. It will be implemented from the spring, delivering cleaner, cheaper energy in the process and ensuring that people, particularly in those low-income households where fuel costs already account for a disproportionate amount of income, can spend less money on them because their home is insulated and warm. That is a right that everyone should have.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
Does the Minister appreciate that although in the run-up to the election it was assumed, or said, quite often that GB Energy would save households £300, that figure seems now to have been dropped? Is this not a mechanism to ensure that low-income households see some benefit from the Bill? They will not necessarily take the Government’s word for it that it may come later, when we have already seen announcements such as the figure of £300 being dropped.
Michael Shanks
We have not dropped any announcement on reducing bills, but GB Energy was not going to be the single thing that would deliver that; it was the Government’s whole energy strategy. It is important to say that. I said in my evidence to the Committee on Tuesday that GB Energy is an important part of delivering that, but it is not a silver bullet. It will not be the thing that deals with every single aspect of our energy policy. It is also about what we are doing, for example, around increasing the renewables auction to get more cheaper energy on to the grid. It is about what we are doing around planning, consenting and connections. All that work is related to bringing down bills in the long term.
The Conservative party—the party that was in government when all our constituents suffered some of the highest price spikes that we have ever experienced—has to recognise, as it did for many years until it moved away from this policy, that the only way to reduce our dependence on the volatile markets that have led to increases in bills is to move towards greener, cheaper energy in the long term. That is what GB Energy is about delivering, that is what will bring down bills in the long term, and that is what we continue to deliver through this Bill.
I turn to paragraph (f) of amendment 10, which I am afraid we cannot support today, partly because it says what is already in the Bill on expanding renewable energy and technology. The Bill itself facilitates exactly those points and defines clean energy as
“energy produced from sources other than fossil fuels.”
That existing object already enables Great British Energy to drive the deployment of clean energy, helping to boost our energy independence, create jobs and ensure that communities reap the benefit of home-grown energy. Therefore, as a whole, amendment 10 is unnecessary, as the Bill already enables all of those points in clause 3.
The words of the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire are heartfelt and have been genuinely heard; I hope she gets that sense from all my hon. Friends and me. Such initiatives are an important part, not of GB Energy in itself, but of the whole Government’s mission to make communities in their households much safer from the lack of insulation and cold homes from which they are suffering at the moment. For those reasons, we will not support the amendment, and I hope that the hon. Lady will not press it.
Pippa Heylings
I thank all hon. Members for their serious consideration of the amendment. The hon. Member for Sheffield Hallam said that it was important to consider the role that energy efficiency plays within overall demand. I agree that it is part of the wider policy, but I think it is also critical in the context of GB Energy, because there is room for interpretation of clause 3(2)(c), which is about energy efficiency, as in energy efficiency in the process of generating energy.
Michael Shanks
In summary, clause 3 is about restricting Great British Energy’s activities to those specifically listed in the Bill, around “facilitating, encouraging and participating” in clean energy projects, reducing greenhouse gas emissions, improving energy efficiency, and ensuring energy security in the long term. Clause 3 thus provides the framework for Great British Energy to carry out the five functions outlined in its founding statement.
I turn to the objects set out in clause 3. Clause 3(2)(a) will enable Great British Energy to facilitate, encourage and participate in clean energy projects. Clean energy is defined in the Bill as
“energy produced from sources other than fossil fuels”.
The object will enable Great British Energy to drive the deployment of clean energy, helping to boost our energy independence.
Clause 3(2)(b) will enable Great British Energy to facilitate, encourage or participate in projects that would contribute to the reduction of greenhouse gases from energy produced from fossil fuels. Building on some of the evidence we heard on Tuesday, I want to be very clear that that includes, for example, projects relating to carbon capture and storage, or blue hydrogen.
Clause 3(2)(c) will enable Great British Energy to deliver measures to improve energy efficiency. That could include, for example, supporting demand reduction through the local power plant.
Clause 3(2)(d) will enable Great British Energy to respond to any future energy crisis, and deliver measures to support the long-term security of supply. Great British Energy is part of a bold, long-term strategy to harness our nation’s clean energy potential, and ensure that we reduce our exposure to the volatile fossil fuel markets.
Through those objects, clause 3 provides the framework from which Great British Energy can carry out its five functions. Although the five functions are set out in the founding statement rather than in the Bill, it would be helpful to refer to them in the context of clause 3. First, Great British Energy will invest in and own energy projects. Secondly, Great British Energy will lead projects through their early development stages, to speed up delivery while capturing value for the British people. Thirdly, Great British Energy will deliver our local power plan, working with local authorities, combined authorities and communities to deliver the biggest expansion of community owned energy in British history. Fourthly, Great British Energy will work with industry to develop supply chains across the UK to boost energy independence, but also, crucially, to create good, well-paid, trade unionised jobs.
Andrew Bowie
On the point about supply chains, the sustainable industry rewards were being designed to come with the next auction round next year. How will GB Energy work alongside the existing frameworks to deliver those sustainable industry rewards, to ensure that we build up the domestic supply chain that everybody across the parties wants?
Michael Shanks
That is an important point. We will announce more about allocation round 7 in due course, and how our industrial work and British jobs will work together to create those supply chains. It is an important point about the broad nature of what we want to do: to give confidence to industry that a pipeline of projects will be coming long into the future—beyond 2030, actually, although that is our initial key target—so that it is worth investing in and building the factories and supply chains in the UK. Great British Energy will be part of that, but it will certainly not be the entirety of it. We are working with the national wealth fund and the UK Infrastructure Bank to deliver more of those projects in the UK.
The final function, which the shadow Minister will appreciate, is that Great British Energy will help advance the work of Great British Nuclear. We will say more in due course about exactly how those two organisations work together. Those five functions enable Great British Energy to deliver on its clear mission of driving forward clean energy deployment, boosting our energy independence, creating good jobs and ensuring that UK taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean and secure home-grown energy.
Wera Hobhouse
Will the Minister confirm that he said that we might cross-reference the five functions in the Bill? In that way, people will be clear, for example, that community energy is cross-referenced in the Bill as one of the five functions. Did he say that earlier?
Michael Shanks
No, I did not say that. What I was saying was that the context of the objects in the Bill is given by the functions that we set out in the founding statement. It is clear that those founding principles of Great British Energy, which the Secretary of State announced in that founding statement along with the start-up chair, Juergen Maier, will be largely what drives the initial statement of priorities for the company.
The objects themselves are around creating restrictions on what Great British Energy can do. We have left them deliberately broad so that the company is able to move in and out of different spaces. I am not sure whether the hon. Lady was here earlier, but we said clearly that there is nothing in the Bill that precludes community energy at all. I have repeated a number of times our absolute commitment to that and to the local power plan.
We will turn to clause 5 in due course, but it is relevant to the point we are discussing. Great British Energy will, of course, be operationally independent—a model adopted by a number of different companies; it is important for it to have its own board of experts in their fields. However, the Secretary of State will be able to set the company’s strategic priorities, which we will debate later. That is to ensure that although Great British Energy is operationally independent, it is setting out the functions in its founding statement while remaining agile to the Government priorities of the day. Importantly, it is a vehicle for delivering the central points of Government policy, including community energy, energy efficiency and many of the other things we have talked about. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 4
Financial assistance
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Michael Shanks
Great British Energy will be operationally independent, with the Secretary of State as the sole shareholder. To operate, Great British Energy clearly needs funding, and clause 4 will give the Secretary of State the power to provide financial assistance to Great British Energy. That is so that GB Energy can take action in line with its statutory objects set out in clause 3, including financing its investments, joint ventures and day-to-day running costs.
To be clear, our intention is that Great British Energy will become financially self-sufficient in the long term. Great British Energy will invest in projects and expect a return on investments, generating revenue and delivering profits that benefit the public. It will also create tens of thousands of good jobs. However, it is prudent to ensure that the Secretary of State has the power to provide further financial support if required. Just as private sector companies would rely on the financial strength of their corporate groups to raise funds, there could be a case for providing Great British Energy with further financial support for specific projects in the future. The clause will enable that.
I assure the Committee that any further financial assistance to Great British Energy provided by the Secretary of State will of course be subject to the usual governance and control principles applicable to public sector bodies, such as His Majesty’s Treasury’s “Managing Public Money”.
Finally, in the highly unlikely situation of Great British Energy facing financial difficulty, the powers set out in clause 4 would allow the Secretary of State to step in to help prevent any disruption to Great British Energy’s intended interventions. I commend the clause to the Committee.
Andrew Bowie
I am comforted that the Minister thinks it very unlikely that GB Energy will get into any financial difficulty. But let us look at state-owned energy companies around the world. Just last year, for example, EDF—a fantastic company investing a lot into the United Kingdom—had to be bailed out to the tune of about €20 billion. Although I am comforted by his assurance, I think we would like to see a little more evidence for that assertion before moving forward.
The Minister says that any financial assistance will be governed by the usual processes of being accountable to Parliament, and that the Secretary of State would be, should that be the case, but clause 4(3) states:
“Financial assistance under this section may be provided subject to any conditions the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”
Should it not be conditions that Parliament considers appropriate? Will the Minister expand more on what those conditions might be?
Michael Shanks
I am always willing to give the hon. Gentleman comfort, in this and many other things. On both those points, the Bill quite rightly says that it is subject to any particular requirements of the Secretary of State. That is about saying that, instead of giving money to a company without any requirements, requirements will of course be put on what that funding is for—a fairly standard thing that I think we would expect.
On the broader point about parliamentary scrutiny, there are of course a number of mechanisms through which Parliament can bring scrutiny to these decisions. As I have already said, it will be outlined that any additional funding that should be given to GB Energy in the future will be in the course of the normal processes of any financial transactions that the Government undertake.
I think this is important, though: the hon. Gentleman has used the EDF example on a number of occasions, but he does not often reference the other side of the equation —hugely successful state-owned companies around the world. The truth, in all this Bill, is that for the first time in more than 70 years we are delivering a publicly owned energy company in this country, in the same vision as many of the publicly owned energy companies that are hugely successful around the world and delivering huge returns to their taxpayers every single year.
We are starting off GB Energy on a much smaller scale —of course we are—but, in time, we see it as a vehicle for delivering some of the huge successes that those companies have, and delivering a huge return to the public. We believe that public ownership of infrastructure is a good thing, and we hope that we can convince hon. Members across the House that this is the right thing to take forward.
Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move amendment 11, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include the reduction of household energy bills by £300 in real terms by 1 January 2030.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 12, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on the progress made by Great British Energy towards the strategic priority of reducing household energy bills by £300 in real terms by 1 January 2030.
(b) A report under paragraph (a) must include a projection of how Great British Energy’s activities are likely to affect consumer energy bills over the following five years.
(c) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.
(d) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Amendment 24, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include a priority to reduce household energy bills by at least £300 in real terms.”
Andrew Bowie
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq, and a privilege to be back in another Committee Room debating a Bill on energy—we did not do enough of that last year.
Amendment 11 would provide a specific strategic priority for Great British Energy to reduce the average household energy bill by £300 in real terms by 1 January 2030. Amendment 12 would require an annual report to be laid before Parliament on how GB Energy activities are affecting household energy bills. The often repeated claim that the purpose of GB Energy was to save each bill payer £300 on their energy bill seems to be conspicuously absent from the legislation before us, which states that the objects of GB Energy are only to facilitate, encourage and participate in the production of energy, the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, improvements in energy efficiency and measures for ensuring security of supply.
This morning, we checked the Labour party’s website. It still says:
“Great British Energy is part of Labour’s Green Prosperity Plan”,
which will
“cut bills by £300 on average and deliver real energy security.”
On 19 June, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said on Twitter:
“Great British Energy, a publicly owned energy company, will cut energy bills by up to £300.”
On 24 May, the now Prime Minister said on ITV’s “Good Morning Britain”:
“Well, we want to, as you rightly say, set up Great British Energy. That is a publicly funded, publicly owned company, which is owned by the taxpayer, making money for the taxpayer”,
and that it would reduce household bills by—he claims —£400. It is a little surprising that this has not made it into the legislation setting up Great British Energy, given that it was a prime reason for the delivery of this company in the first place.
Josh MacAlister
Can the hon. Member cite any legislation from the past 14 years that included a specific financial saving, to illustrate his point that it would be appropriate to put that in a piece of legislation? Does he not accept that his quote from the Labour party’s website includes the words “part of”—the point that the Government have made all along?
Andrew Bowie
The fact is that the Labour party has brought forward this legislation and is creating this company—a company that the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Labour candidates, now MPs across the country, claimed time and again through the election would cut bills by £300. It was one of the reasons why Labour is creating the company in the first place, so it is surprising that it did not want to put the £300 as a specific object in the Bill, given that it was so proud of the fact that this would deliver the savings it said it would.
Torcuil Crichton
I, too, have been checking online—with Full Fact, which discloses that the £300 figure that the shadow Minister raises is not based on Labour’s plans; it comes from a report from an energy think-tank Ember, and it is an estimate of what people would save. There was no Government commitment—there never was a Government commitment—to such a figure.
Andrew Bowie
That might be in Full Fact, but if the hon. Member goes to Channel 4’s “FactCheck”, he will see that it says:
“During the election campaign Labour suggested bills would be brought down around £300 a year”
through its “net zero energy plans”, including the creation of GB Energy. The Prime Minister said:
“Yes, I do. I stand by everything in our manifesto and one of the things I made clear in the election campaign is I wouldn’t make a single promise or commitment that I didn’t think we could deliver in government.”
So the question is this: will energy bills be cut by £300 by 2030 and, if so, why is that not in the legislation before us?
Andrew Pakes
The hon. Member sets great stock in saying what this Government might do. To give us context, can he tell us what his Government did? Did bills go up or down in his tenure as a Minister?
Andrew Bowie
While we were in government, we paid half of every single person’s energy bill in this country to get us through the energy crisis, which was created as a result—
Andrew Bowie
It was created as a result of the invasion of Ukraine by Vladimir Putin, as everybody in this room knows. I know that out there in the country, constituents would like clarification that that remains an express aim of GB Energy, especially the cutting of £300 from their energy bills and particularly for the pensioners out there who are having that exact amount removed from them by this Government, as one of their first acts having got into power.
The Secretary of State has reiterated that clean energy will deliver cheaper energy; it has been repeated in the House, on the campaign trail, in videos and in leaflets. I believe it is important to enshrine accountability to that ambition in this Bill, which will create the institution of Great British Energy. We must introduce a mechanism by which the Secretary of State and GB Energy are accountable to households.
Olivia Blake
Surely the shadow Minister agrees that Great British Energy will reduce the costs of energy, because the types of energy projects in which it will be investing will be of lower-cost energy production and we will be less reliant on foreign fuel markets, which have been very volatile for a range of reasons. I accept what he says about what he did as Minister in the last Parliament, but this Government, in our first piece of legislation, are acting to create a vehicle that will enable us to get much further.
We have had a very successful auction, compared with the absolute farce of an auction at the back end of the last Parliament, for clean energy projects that are cheaper and will hopefully deliver on a scale never seen before in this country. I am proud to stand here and say that I think the amendment is not necessary. It is playing quite cute with the rhetoric around this question; it should be withdrawn, because it is playing politics rather than tackling the substance of what the Bill is intended for, which is very serious, as we face a climate and nature emergency.
Andrew Bowie
I do not disagree entirely with the hon. Lady. I think we should be aiming to reduce the cost to taxpayers, and that investing in new cleaner technologies, including nuclear, will see energy bills fall in the long run—so why not have that as one of the objects of the company in the Bill? The Bill states that the objects of Great British Energy will be
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from energy produced from 15 fossil fuels…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
There is not one mention of reducing consumers’ bills. Surely we want to enshrine that in the legislation, if that is indeed one of the aims of the creation of this company.
My amendment 12 would include the necessity to present
“a projection of how Great British Energy’s activities are likely to affect consumer energy bills over the following five years.”
Transparency and accountability should be key to the operation of GB Energy, particularly when the investments and activities that the organisation undertakes have a potential impact on household bills for every family in this country. Thank you for allowing me to speak to the amendment, Dr Huq; I do so to ensure that the Bill makes provision for GB Energy to be held accountable on its aim to reduce energy bills for households.
It is in the best interests of GB Energy and of the British public that the company have a clear directive to ensure, through investment in clean energy technology, that the cost of household energy is reduced. Labour MPs made clear the intention of GB Energy to reduce bills—indeed, they campaigned extensively on the £300 reduction—so I hope that they will support amendment 12, which would support them in achieving that goal, along with including provisions on accountability and transparency to the public on the overall impact of GB Energy’s investments on consumer bills.
Stephen Flynn
I rise to support amendment 24, which is broadly similar to the shadow Minister’s amendment 11. I am intrigued by the discussion that we have had, various aspects of which appeared to disagree with evidence we have heard.
First, the hon. Member for Sheffield Hallam, if I picked her up correctly, made great play of the fact that GB Energy will reduce costs. Yet just a couple of days ago, each and every one of us was in the room with the chair of GB Energy, who was very clear that reducing bills
“is not the scope of Great British Energy”.––[Official Report, Great British Energy Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2024; c. 6, Q5.]
We can all watch the footage online, and we can all read Hansard.
Secondly, the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar made the argument that the £300 promise was not actually a promise. Which is it? Will it or will it not reduce costs?
Olivia Blake
I think the right hon. Member is purposely misunderstanding my comments. It is obvious: is the cost of cheap, green energy lower or higher than the costs that we have seen in the oil, gas and coal markets? It is as simple as that. Is it cheaper? Yes, it is. Doing things like Great British Energy will help produce more cheaper, cleaner, greener energy.
Stephen Flynn
The hon. Lady misunderstands my point. I do not disagree with that; in fact, I would like to see the Government go further and separate the price of electricity from the price of gas as they promised. That is one of the reasons why the Tories allowed people’s energy costs to soar, irrespective of their narrative about extenuating circumstances far outwith all our control. The point that the hon. Member for Sheffield Hallam made, quite clearly, was that GB Energy would reduce costs. Juergen Maier, the chair, said that that was not the scope of GB Energy. Which is it? The two things cannot be true at exactly the same time. We cannot say that something is going to happen and then say that GB Energy is not going to do it.
The crux of all this is that the public have expectations that GB Energy will reduce their energy bills by £300. Government Members can argue that that was not the promise; if that was not the promise, they were very quiet about it when they let the public believe that during the election campaign. If the public believe that, the Government need to deliver on the commitment that they made, and they should learn a lesson. The Conservatives made promise after promise after promise, and they failed to deliver when it came to energy. [Interruption.] Does the Minister wish to intervene?
Michael Shanks
I am very happy to. The right hon. Member talks about promises in an election campaign. He may distance himself from some of the promises that his Holyrood colleagues make—at least at the moment, until he makes his move—but it is important to say that, time and again, his own party made promises in its 17 years in power. We have committed to lowering bills, and as I will outline in a minute, we will continue to commit to that. GB Energy is the vehicle for doing that. I am delighted that he has pledged support for it today. That, along with all the Government’s policies, is how we will reduce bills in the long term.
Perhaps the right hon. Member should take a bit of a lesson from us about promises in election campaigns and how to win them, which is not to promise to set up a publicly owned energy company in Scotland and still not have done so 15 years after it was announced. We are doing it now within 100 days.
Stephen Flynn
I admire the Minister’s attempt to compare GB Energy, as supposedly a producer and generator of energy, with an organisation that could have sold electricity—
Stephen Flynn
Of course it did not do anything, because the capital was not there to do that. If it had existed under the price shock that the Tories brought in for all of us, it would not have been able to function, in the same way that so many others in the private sector were not able to function. The Minister is trying to equate two things that are not comparable. When he rises to his feet, as he seems very keen to, perhaps he will confirm, first, when bills will fall by £300, and secondly—as he failed to do the other day—when they will come down at all.
Before the Minister interrupted so pleasantly, I was pointing out to Government Members that the Conservatives made promises on energy that they failed to deliver. The public have high expectations—so get on and deliver.
Michael Shanks
We will not support the amendments tabled by the shadow Minister or that of the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, but it is important to say why. As several of my hon. Friends have made clear, putting specific figures into a Bill is not what any Parliament does, but it is important to set out the objects, purpose and vision of GB Energy, as it will play a crucial role in bringing down bills in the long term and preventing the price spikes that we and our constituents still face.
Andrew Bowie
The Minister is being generous with his time, and I appreciate that; he is a generous individual. If he will not commit to a £300 cut, why will he not stipulate that one of the objects of GB Energy is to reduce consumer bills? That is one of the arguments that Labour used in favour of its creation throughout the election, and indeed afterwards. Why will he not consider at least putting on the face of the Bill a commitment to reduce consumer bills?
Michael Shanks
For the reasons I have already outlined, that is implicit in the policy; it is why we are doing it. I think the shadow Minister agreed in response to one of my hon. Friends that this is a useful approach to reducing bills, and the push towards green energy is important.
Michael Shanks
The shadow Minister nods in support. I look forward to his support for the Bill as a vehicle for delivering it.
Michael Shanks
He stops short of that.
The shadow Minister spoke earlier about the rising bills caused by Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, as if somehow the UK had no vulnerabilities that particularly exposed us to that invasion. Of course it was an external factor, but it led to huge price spikes in this country, and we are still exposed to volatile fossil fuel markets. We are determined to push towards energy security through cleaner green energy. That is moving at pace—our recent renewables auction was the biggest we have ever had, with 131 projects—and Great British Energy will drive that forward.
Harriet Cross
We have already discussed the financial assistance in the Bill. It is therefore anticipated that there may be financial strain. Given that the objects in the Bill do not include reducing bills, what guarantee is there that reducing bills will be a priority if and when finances become tight?
Michael Shanks
On the financial point, the Bill is an enabling mechanism, like a number of other pieces of legislation, including the UK Infrastructure Bank Act 2023, which the hon. Lady’s party introduced in government to allow the Secretary of State to give additional funding to companies. We said throughout the election that we would reduce energy bills, and we stand by that, but we cannot flick a switch. The idea that some Members have put forward that somehow, after 14 years of chaos from the Conservative party, a Government can come in and, within 100 days, turn everything around overnight is simply and deliberately disingenuous. Conservative Members take no responsibility for the actions of the previous Government.
We are putting in place as quickly as possible the basis for delivering energy security in the long term and removing volatility from our energy market, so that we can deliver cheaper bills for everyone in the long term. We made no pledge during the election that we would do it in 100 days, a year or two years, because we know fine well that that commitment will take time. But it is the right journey for us to be on, and it is right that we have started by building the energy resilience we need in the system.
Stephen Flynn
I do not think that my Commons colleagues and I would suggest that the Government should have reduced energy bills within 100 days, but, my goodness, they have just gone up by 10%. The Minister says that it will not happen within a year or two years, so I would be keen, as would the public, to know broadly when he expects energy bills to come down. I do not say that from an angry position; I want the public to have a bit of clarity about his objectives.
Michael Shanks
It is an important point, and I take it in the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman says he intends it, but nobody is in a position to say what will happen to bills on a particular date. They will start to come down as our exposure to more expensive forms of energy is reduced, but the price cap has already increased because we continue to be exposed to those international markets, and there are actions taken by the previous Government that will continue as we move into the winter. We are doing everything we can to turn that around as quickly as possible.
The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as anyone that at the next election we will absolutely be judged on this and on a whole series of commitments that we have made, as any party is judged on its commitments in elections. We stand by that. We are doing everything we possibly can to deliver the change that is necessary. It will bring down bills in the long term. It will be difficult— I am not suggesting that it will not—but it is a commitment that we have made and it is one that we will work towards.
Harriet Cross
Just for clarity, will the other changes that Labour is bringing in, such as ending North sea licences, increasing and extending the windfall tax and ending investment allowances, make us more or less secure in the meantime, before GB Energy is set up? Will they expose us more or less to the international market?
Michael Shanks
We are moving slightly off the Bill, but that is an important point; we have spoken about it before, and I am very happy to keep speaking about it. The difference is that, whether gas comes from the North sea or from international markets, it is traded on an international market. We pay the price whether it comes from the North sea or not. That is why the price spikes have been so important.
Michael Shanks
I fully suspect that in my time as Energy Minister, I will come back to the hon. Lady’s question. It is an important one, and I am very happy to discuss it.
Turning back to the amendments, we have been very clear that the creation of Great British Energy is about helping us to harness clean energy and reduce our reliance on volatile fossil fuels. But it is important—with the patience of the Chair—to outline the other things that we are doing, more broadly than Great British Energy and the Bill. It is important that Labour’s reforms dovetail with what Great British Energy is doing, particularly the review of market arrangements started by the previous Government. We will conclude that work.
We will continue to deliver the warm home discount, which provides a £150 annual rebate off energy bills for eligible low-income households. We are also looking at the burden placed on bills by standing charges, which still make up too much of so many people’s bills; the Minister for Energy Consumers, my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham, is looking at that now. We are working with Ofgem to look at how we can reduce that.
There is a series of measures that are all important and that all work towards the same goal. GB Energy is one of those, and it is important that we implement it as quickly as possible so that we can move forward with increasing our capacity for cheaper energy and reduce bills in the long term. For that reason, the amendments are not necessary.
Andrew Bowie
The Minister has our full support on the broad approach that he is taking on market frameworks, standing charges and working with Ofgem, given that we started that work when we were in government. However, a commitment to work towards reducing consumer bills, and specifically the £300 reduction that the Labour party promised during the election would result from the creation of Great British Energy, should be in the Bill. That is why our amendment is essential. I will press it to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Great British Energy Bill (Fourth sitting)
Thursday 10th October 2024
(6 days, 13 hours ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 View all Great British Energy Bill 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 10 October 2024 - (10 Oct 2024)
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 9 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 11 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 3 / Noes: 10 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Chair
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I assume that by now everyone is an expert in Standing Committees and knows how procedure works, but for the record, although I am sure this has been explained already, amendments are grouped in debating order, not sequential order, so you may find that something will be voted on much later than it is debated, because it appears in the Bill later. If you are worried, ask; otherwise, assume that we shall vote on the right things in the right place at the right time. Although I do not know what I am doing, the Clerks most certainly do. If in any doubt about that or anything in the way of procedure— I notice that one or two new Members are in Committee —please do not hesitate to ask. I shall not know the answers, but the Clerks will.
Because it is so warm, anyone who wants to take their coat off is welcome to do so. [Interruption.] I am tempted to say, “Run around to keep warm,” but unfortunately here you cannot.
Clause 5
Strategic priorities and plans
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
That I beg to move amendment 13, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include ensuring that wholesale electricity prices must be lower in real terms on 1 July 2030 than the day on which this Act is passed.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 14, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on the progress made by Great British Energy towards the strategic priority of reducing wholesale electricity prices in the United Kingdom.
(b) A report under paragraph (a) must include a projection of—
(i) how Great British Energy’s activities are likely to affect wholesale electricity prices in the United Kingdom, and
(ii) the likely effect of the projected wholesale electricity prices on consumer electricity bills over the following five years.
(c) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.
(d) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Amendment 19, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State within three months of each investment it makes on the impact that the relevant investment is projected to have on wholesale electricity prices over the following ten years.
(b) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Andrew Bowie
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. The amendment would bring to the Bill a concrete objective for Great British Energy to reduce the wholesale price of electricity. I am pleased to move this amendment, which will introduce a specific strategic priority to reduce wholesale electricity prices and to require that an annual report is produced on how Great British Energy’s activities are affecting wholesale energy prices and therefore consumer electricity bills.
Further to the discussion earlier about the impact of Great British Energy on bills, notable by its absence, sadly, is a purpose for GB Energy to reduce wholesale electricity prices. As we noted earlier, the Bill states that the objects of GB Energy are only to facilitate, encourage and participate in the production of energy, the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, improvements to energy efficiency, and measures for ensuring the security of supply. It would be remiss of the Government not to include the ambition to reduce the wholesale price of electricity as a strategic priority of the company.
Why is reducing wholesale electricity prices important? Wholesale costs account for about 60% of a customer’s energy bill and are a major consideration in suppliers’ retail pricing decisions. In the two years since Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, we have seen the sizeable impact of the international energy crisis on bill payers in the United Kingdom. Tensions rising in the middle east could very much affect our domestic energy costs, so it is more significant than ever that we take into account the impact that Great British Energy could have on wholesale electricity prices to reduce consumer bills as much as possible.
It should be incumbent on Great British Energy, through its investments and its part and full ownership of projects, to drive down wholesale electricity prices to the benefit of UK bill payers and businesses. In winter 2022-23, the Conservative and Unionist Government paid half the country’s energy bills to protect households from the worst of the energy shocks triggered by that war in Ukraine. Energy bills, alongside the pressures of inflation, have been a consistent worry for all our constituents. We also have the highest energy costs for industry in Europe.
The Government have outlined that their plans to tackle future energy security, to reduce bills and to lower wholesale prices for electricity hinge on the creation of GB Energy. Therefore, it would be prudent to write into the Bill the strategic priority to reduce wholesale electricity prices. On Tuesday, we heard from the chair of GB Energy that
“Every megawatt and gigawatt of renewable energy that we put on the grid will help to bring bills and prices down.”––[Official Report, Great British Energy Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2024; c. 6, Q5.]
I agree. Therefore, it has been intimated that that is indeed a strategic priority for GB Energy, and the Bill ought to reflect that.
This group of amendments also introduces the requirement for the Secretary of State to give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report on its progress.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
I have an honest question. Since energy is sold in a daily, 10-minute or whatever market, and that market operates, how can the Government ensure that the market behaves in the way they want it to behave? Is that question useful? I want to understand what the hon. Gentleman’s amendment will actually do to guarantee the price, since British energy operates in a market.
Andrew Bowie
That is an important question. I think we all agree that the reason the United Kingdom was so exposed to the energy price shocks that the entire western world has experienced over the past two years was our overreliance on the highly volatile fossil fuel market. Building new technologies to drive us towards a cleaner future and lower bills is therefore important. Our exposure to the market to which the hon. Lady refers had an adverse impact here in the United Kingdom. Just as stating in the Bill that a reduction in bills is important, the reduction of wholesale electricity prices should also be a stated object in the Bill. If GB Energy is to do anything, alongside all its other strategic objects, surely it must be working towards a reduction in electricity prices. We would therefore like to see that on the face of the Bill.
Wera Hobhouse
The hon. Gentleman is being generous in giving way. Would that not be a clear state intervention in the market?
Andrew Bowie
I do not think so, but the creation of the company is a state intervention in the market. That is one reason we on the Conservative Benches disagree with the Bill. We think that we can drive up investment in renewables and new technologies in this country by allowing companies the freedom to invest and by creating the best environment for private investment in this country. That is what we did when we were in government. That is why we have the first to the fifth-largest offshore wind farms in the world, and that is why we cut emissions faster than any other country in the G7, at the same time as growing the economy. That is a record that I am very proud of, and I worry that this state intervention in the market will have a negative effect.
We are debating the creation of GB Energy and this Bill. As part of that, a reduction in electricity prices should be one of the strategic aims.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
The Conservative party in government—I do not know whether opinion has changed—had little regard for private businesses. On Tuesday, however, we clearly heard expert witnesses from private businesses consistently testify that one of the Bill’s key benefits is that it is not overly and unnecessarily prescriptive, so it allows the scope to develop the strategic priorities that focus on ensuring that we get this right. The amendment is completely unnecessary, because it is yet another example of being overly prescriptive, which is not what businesses asked for on Tuesday.
Andrew Bowie
I completely agree that we should not be overly prescriptive of business, but one of the strategic objectives in setting up this company should be to work towards a reduction in wholesale electricity prices. The Bill sets out everything else that the company will seek to do, so why not add that to the Bill as an objective for the company in the long run? I do not know why there would be any disagreement with including that objective in the Bill, given that we all agree that electricity prices and the cost of doing business are far too high in this country. Surely, therefore, GB Energy should be working towards that objective—hence I think the amendment is necessary and we have moved it today.
On the requirement on the Secretary of State to give a specific direction to GB Energy, we think that it should report its progress on the priority of reducing wholesale electricity costs to Parliament. Amendment 19 would also introduce the requirement for GB Energy to report to the Secretary of State within three months of every investment on the projected impact on wholesale energy prices over the next 10 years. It is essential that we in Parliament, Government and Great British Energy take a sufficiently long-term view of the decisions and investments that will impact wholesale electricity prices and, therefore, consumer bills and the cost to industry in the years and decades to come. Those are the reasons for our amendments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Michael Shanks)
It is a pleasure, Sir Roger, to serve in this Committee under your—
The Chair
Order. In case hon. Members are not fully aware, ordinarily we would call any Member on either side of the Committee before calling the Minister. It is not the same procedure as on the Floor of the House, where we would normally call, in this case, the Opposition and then the Government Front Bench. That is why I paused slightly to see whether anybody wanted to intervene.
Michael Shanks
I will take the amendments in turn, starting with amendment 13, tabled by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine. The creation of Great British Energy allows us to harness clean energy and have less reliance on volatile energy markets. I must resist the amendment for a number of reasons. Parts of the various amendments are linked, so I will deal with what they have in common.
First, a founding principle of Great British Energy is that it should be operationally independent. The Bill is clearly about making the minimum necessary provision to establish the company. Adding further unnecessary detail, as we have talked about with regard to various amendments today, risks restricting the company in carrying out its activities and going against our commitment to the British public. The hon. Gentleman will be familiar with this model of legislation, given his involvement with pieces of legislation such as on the UK Infrastructure Bank. We heard from a number of witnesses on Tuesday that they want the Bill to be broad enough to allow Great British Energy to move into different opportunities as they arise but, clearly, the focus we have set out for it concerns the long-term energy security of the country and bringing down bills.
Secondly, the Secretary of State has the power—we will come on to this, I have no doubt—to set the strategic priorities. It is right that the statement of strategic priorities sets out what Great British Energy’s objectives are. As the hon. Gentleman knows, because he and other hon. Members have referred to it at various points, we live in an increasingly unstable world. The last few years have brought that to the front of our consciousness. Our energy security and the protection we need to give to bill payers mean that we need to speed up the transition from fossil fuels to home-grown clean energy. We are unwavering in our commitment to that as a long-term project and a cornerstone of our sustainable plan to safeguard bill payers for good.
In speaking to these amendments, the hon. Gentleman referred to our witnesses on Tuesday and the fact that putting more green energy on the grid reduces overall costs. I agree with him on that, but it is therefore important to recognise that Great British Energy is a vehicle to speed up that process. Measures under the previous Government, of which he was of course part, made that more and more difficult—for example, the onshore wind ban, which one of his colleagues said was “always mad”. We need to recognise that this is a change of direction. If we agree that the only way to bring down bills and reduce the wholesale cost for good is to move to more secure home-grown green energy, we need to have the full commitment of Government to deliver that.
I will now turn to amendment 14, which would require the Secretary of State to give
“specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report…on the progress made by Great British Energy towards”
electricity prices. The report set out in the hon. Gentleman’s amendment must be made within two years of Royal Assent. We will resist the amendment today, because we think it is unnecessary.
As I have already outlined, the shift to clean energy is about increasing home-grown power and accelerating the reduction of our exposure to international markets. Broader than Great British Energy, the Government are running a series of programmes and reforms to pass on cheaper renewables to consumers. For example, as we mentioned earlier, there is the review of electricity market arrangements.
As a publicly owned company, Great British Energy will be accountable through regular reporting to the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero. Furthermore, like other arm’s length bodies of Government, it will be accountable to Parliament, but will operate independently, at arm’s length, from Ministers. That is important, because the point of setting up a publicly owned energy company independent of Government is to bring in the skills and experience of an executive board and staff who will not be directed day to day by Government, but will, of course, work within the parameters that we have set it. As I have said in response to a number of amendments today, adding further unnecessary detail risks restricting the company in carrying out its activities, and is against what we have said in setting out the Bill.
Andrew Bowie
I have nothing to add, other than to inform the Committee that we will press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Chair
I am not sure whether Dr Huq referred to this in the morning, but before we proceed, I will say that ordinarily, at the end of a clause, there is a stand part debate on whether the clause, or the clause as amended, should stand part of the Bill. That debate is in the gift of the Chair. I am usually pretty relaxed about this, and I dare say that Dr Huq is as well. I understand that there was a fairly comprehensive debate on the first group of amendments this morning, so my impression is that we will probably not require a stand part debate.
The quid pro quo for that is a degree of flexibility when we come to talk about things, because very often matters overlap. I have always said that as far as I am concerned, you can have a stand part debate on the first group of amendments if you like, because very often the greater includes the lesser, but you cannot have your cake and eat it—you cannot do it twice. Hon. Members should bear in mind that if there are things that they want to say, it might be a good idea to say them, because they probably will not get the chance in a clause stand part debate. I hope that that is clear.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move amendment 15, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include the creation of 650,000 new jobs in the United Kingdom by 2030 resulting directly or indirectly from Great British Energy’s pursuit of its objectives under section 3.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 16, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on the progress made by Great British Energy towards the strategic priority of creating 650,000 new jobs in the United Kingdom by 2030.
(b) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.
(c) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Andrew Bowie
The amendments would create a specific strategic priority for Great British Energy to create 650,000 new jobs in the United Kingdom by 2030, and require the production of an annual report on the progress of meeting that strategic priority.
It is worth our while this afternoon to take some time to consider the achievements of the previous Conservative Government in driving towards a cleaner energy future. It was a Conservative Government, under Prime Minister Theresa May, who legislated for net zero in 2019. It was a Conservative Government who began and created the contract for difference process, which was looked at with awe by the world at that stage—
Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Torcuil Crichton
Was it not also a Conservative Government who refused to take the decision to give Harland & Wolff the funding that would have kept it open and avoided administration and now sale, and who left that hard decision to the incoming Labour Government?
Andrew Bowie
As the hon. Gentleman knows, there are many hard decisions to be taken in government, and every decision that the Government have to take has to provide value for money for the British taxpayer. I know that this Government recognise that, given the decision they have taken to remove £300 from every pensioner in the country—something I think they will come to regret.
As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, the Conservative Government built the first to fifth largest offshore wind farms in the world, ended coal for power generation and halved emissions at the fastest rate of any G7 power. In that regard, I know that everybody in the room is proud of the record of the Conservative Government just gone and will champion it in our work as we move forward.
Nevertheless, the issue of skills, and the lack of the skilled workforce required to deliver the next phase of the transition, was always at the forefront of Ministers’ minds. Indeed, because of that we established the nuclear skills fund when I was the Minister responsible for nuclear.
Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman has forgotten to mention the onshore wind ban, which is really important. If he wants to celebrate his record, let us celebrate it in the full glare of light. Does he agree that one of our big challenges in this country is that we failed to make any progress on nuclear in the last 14 years? We talk about new jobs, but we are losing skilled engineering and nuclear jobs in this country today because they are going to other countries, because those countries are making the progress that we have failed to make.
Andrew Bowie
The hon. Gentleman draws me on to nuclear, which is a dangerous place for me to be drawn, as the Minister will know, because we could spend all afternoon talking about the Conservative Government’s legacy on nuclear—
Andrew Bowie
You might have other ideas, Sir Roger. The legacy is the creation of Great British Nuclear; the beginning of the small modular reactor down-selection programme; the development consent order move in respect of Sizewell C; £200 million invested into high-assay low-enriched uranium fuels to be developed here in the United Kingdom; moving forward at pace with Hinkley Point C; and a commitment to build a third gigawatt-scale reactor at Wylfa—something that this Government have abandoned. It is not the Conservative party that the nuclear industry has a problem with; the industry is now worried about the go-slow on nuclear being implemented in this country by the new Labour Government, because of their obsession with putting all their eggs in one basket of renewables and not looking to the wider benefits of investing in nuclear as well.
On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the onshore wind ban, we delivered everything that I have listed while respecting the rights of communities in this country not to have the countryside where they live, and that they respect and enjoy, industrialised. That is why we had stipulations on communities having a right over what was built in them. I stand by that. It was a good policy and we still halved our emissions faster than any other G7 nation.
When we were in government, we established the nuclear skills taskforce to address the skills gap of 250,000 people that the nuclear industry alone would have were we to deliver all the projects we seek to deliver in defence and energy. We all know that clean energy technology brings employment with it. Estimates for job creation in the transition range from 136,000 jobs to 725,000 jobs by 2030. We all know how beneficial clean energy technology can be for local communities when it comes to employment. Projects such as Sizewell C drive investment—it will bring as many as 25,000 new jobs to Suffolk, and there are already 1,000 apprenticeships in the area. These are high-paid, high-skilled jobs that deliver for the community.
We have heard from the Labour Government that GB Energy will create 650,000 new jobs. On Tuesday, when I asked the chairman, Juergen Maier, about the number of jobs to be based in Aberdeen, he told us that it would be hundreds or even 1,000. I hope that Aberdeen will benefit significantly from being the base for the HQ of GB Energy and that that is not merely paying lip service to a community that is losing out in investment, prosperity and employment opportunities as a result of the energy profits levy increases, the lack of investment allowances, the disinclination to offer new licences in the North sea and the impact that that will have on investment in the transition.
I represent a constituency near Aberdeen, where a significant proportion of constituents are employed in the oil and gas industry directly, or indirectly in the supply chain. The potential for new jobs and the preservation of existing jobs are deeply personal to me and other MPs in the room. In fact, 65,000 people in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire are employed in that industry and in the supply chain, so I know how impactful on communities those jobs are. I therefore move that we include the creation of 650,000 new jobs as a strategic priority for GB Energy, as well as including the requirement to report on the progress made towards that ambition. If we do not deliver the new jobs and do not ensure that as we move through the transition, those working in the oil and gas industry will have jobs secured into the future—as well as creating the new jobs by delivering the projects we were seeking to, as I know the Labour Government seek to—we will have failed in all our shared ambitions.
Olivia Blake (Sheffield Hallam) (Lab)
The shadow Minister’s amendment seems to be a bit of a fig leaf over the failure of the previous Government to secure good, high-quality, unionised jobs in the green energy sector. We need only look at offshore wind. I have cited these statistics before, but in 2010 some 70,000 jobs were promised from the UK offshore wind sector. Unfortunately, 10 years later, it had delivered only 11,900, which is only 5,600 more than were achieved by 2014.
The capacity of offshore wind went up by a huge percentage under the previous Government, for which they should be commended, but their strategy in the past 14 years meant that while they were building offshore wind, they were also offshoring all the jobs that went with it. There was no strategy to cultivate labour-intensive sections of the supply chain; the majority of jobs went abroad. Not enough went into supporting the creation of servicing jobs in the UK. Furthermore, in another element of policy, the embarrassment and failure of the green homes grant truly laid bare the fact that we did not have the right industrial strategy—we had no industrial strategy to support the creation of jobs in those industries or to support a Government intervention such as the green homes grant.
A lot can be said about the opportunities that GB Energy offers. On Tuesday, the TUC agreed that GB Energy would be an enabler for a just transition for those currently working, but it is also my belief that this is a real opportunity for new jobs for the next generation. We have real potential to lever in a huge opportunity going forward to be a main player internationally in some of our emerging technologies.
I am proud to represent a constituency in Sheffield, where we have a lot of research capacity in many different areas related to energy, from battery storage to hydrogen and new nuclear. A lot of research is happening. Such innovation is important to allow for manufacturing jobs to spin off from the primary research.
The amendment is all well and good, but I think it is a little bit rich coming from the Conservative shadow Minister, given the abject failure to deliver on the jobs that we were promised under the previous Government.
Andrew Bowie
I have said publicly on the Floor of the House and in other places that we did not see the creation of the jobs that we wanted as a result of our revolution in energy production here in the United Kingdom. As I said, we have the first, second, third, fourth and fifth largest offshore wind farms in the world, which is a source of great pride, but the jobs onshore created as a result of that simply did not come about, hence why we were moving towards the creation of the sustainable industry rewards and were encouraging companies to invest and create the jobs. If the hon. Lady agrees that we should have done more to create jobs, surely she also agrees with the purpose of the amendment, which is to ensure that GB Energy will have as one of its stated aims the creation of 650,000 jobs in new and emerging technologies.
Olivia Blake
I would not want to limit the possibilities of GB Energy with a number. It is a big number that the hon. Gentleman has put here but, to be honest, there are huge opportunities in all the energy areas—especially in the supply chain within the UK, but also in the transition of jobs. It is really important that we take it in the round and allow GB Energy to play its role. Not all jobs will come from GB Energy; they will come from the much broader investments that we will see over the next decade. We have had a lost decade in this regard, and there is a lot of skills work that needs to come.
Michael Shanks
I will start where the brilliant speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Hallam left off. It is a bit rich for the Opposition to talk about fixing the issue with jobs in the renewables sector that they failed to fix for 14 years. First, I take the issue that the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine raised about jobs in Aberdeen, because it is an extremely important subject, but I think he confuses two things— I would suggest perhaps deliberately. Juergen Maier clearly said on Tuesday that the headquarters of Great British Energy in Aberdeen will have jobs in the hundreds, perhaps expanding in the years ahead, but that the jobs created by Great British Energy are much more than the headquarters. We have always said that it is the investments that Great British Energy makes that will invest in jobs in Aberdeen, in the north-east of Scotland and right across the UK, in the tens of thousands. That is important to separate out.
The hon. Gentleman’s point about the transition is really important, both to the Bill and more broadly. He is right: long before this Labour Government were elected, there was a transition under way in the north-east of Scotland. It is a declining mature basin. It is important that we now take seriously what that transition looks like, and that will require tens of thousands of new, skilled and—crucially, for the north-east of Scotland in particular—well-paid jobs. That is what we are attempting to do with Great British Energy but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Hallam says, Great British Energy is not the only vehicle for it. We have deliberately said that we will set out an industrial strategy, because we are not a Government who think that manufacturing jobs in this country and an industrial strategy are an irrelevance. Actually, they are critical to our economic future.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
The Minister has tempted me to have a look at what Juergen Maier said. I asked him very clearly how many jobs would be in Aberdeen. His response was quite clear:
“It will be in the hundreds; it may eventually be 1,000 or more in the HQ.”––[Official Report, Great British Energy Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2024; c. 6, Q4.]
The HQ is, of course, Aberdeen. That would run contrary to what the Minister has just said.
Michael Shanks
That is not what I said at all. What I said a moment ago is exactly the same, which is that in the short term—in the start-up phase of the company—there will be a few hundred people. That is exactly what Juergen Maier said. In future, our aim—particularly with the right hon. Gentleman’s support, which I was not expecting at the start of today—is that it will grow even further, into a much bigger company. As a result, we expect that there could very well be thousands of jobs in the headquarters in Aberdeen. I am not ruling anything out or limiting the potential of Great British Energy, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is not either. I make this point again, for the benefit of the right hon. Gentleman: critically, that is not the limit of the jobs that will be created by Great British Energy. It is important to recognise that the jobs potential will come from the investments and partnerships that it makes.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
The second part of the amendment states that the jobs should be created by 2030. That timescale is really important, because it ensures that the expertise we have now can be retained to help build these jobs of the future. Even if the Government will not commit to the figure, will they look at the timescale, which will give the industry certainty?
Michael Shanks
For reasons I will come to in a moment, we will not agree to the amendment because we will not put timeframes and numbers in the Bill—we do not see those in any piece of legislation from the previous Government or any other Government, and for very good reason. However, the hon. Lady is right that this decade is absolutely critical for this issue. That is why I am taking it very seriously, and will happily have conversations with her about how we get these jobs as quickly as possible. The timeframe for that is important, but it is also important that we start with building things such as Great British Energy, which I hope she will support, and our broader policy around the office for clean energy jobs, our industrial strategy and our increased investment in things such as the renewables auction.
To come back to what the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine said about offshore wind, he took some credit for it, but of course his Government have to take responsibility for the complete failure on offshore wind in the last auction. We have turned that around with some really successful projects and want to build considerably more in the future. He gave an absolute masterclass for a new Minister like me on how to speak to something—the onshore energy ban in England—that I know he does not believe in, because he is a smart guy.
The reality is that that was ideology over delivery of something critically important. Now, we have inherited not just a lack of projects that would help us towards clean power and deliver jobs right across the UK, but an empty pipeline of projects, given the length of time where wind in England was banned. It is a ridiculous policy that I do not believe for a second the hon. Gentleman supports, but it was a very good example for me on how to deliver a line.
As I said earlier, this clause is specifically about giving very particular, rare directions in urgent or unforeseen circumstances. It is not a clause we expect the Secretary of State to be using regularly. That is important, because I suspect that if it was phrased in any other way, the hon. Gentleman would quite rightly propose an amendment limiting the powers of the Secretary of State to doing exactly that. This clause is about ensuring that Great British Energy has the space to fulfil its strategic priorities. Amendment 16 would widen that intention by adding a long-term goal.
More broadly, and relevant to both the hon. Gentleman’s amendments, I repeat that the aim of Great British Energy is to be operationally independent from Government. The Bill focuses solely on making the absolutely necessary provisions to establish the company. Adding further unnecessary detail—detail I know the Conservative party would not dream of adding to any of its own legislation—risks restricting the company in carrying out its activities and goes against what we have said. That sentiment was supported by almost every witness, including on specific questions about this matter, where I think people were hoping for different answers. Every single witness confirmed that the Bill is in the right place here. For those reasons, and many others, we will not be supporting the amendments.
Andrew Bowie
In confirming that we will be putting the amendments to a vote, I put on the record my congratulations to the Minister, because he may have achieved what I thought was unachievable: getting the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South to welcome and support something with “Great British” in its title. That is a quite a significant achievement, if I may say so.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Andrew Bowie
I beg to move amendment 17, in clause 5, page 3, line 8, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The statement of strategic priorities under subsection (1) must include developing supply chains within the United Kingdom in the pursuit of Great British Energy’s objects under section 3.
(b) ‘supply chains’ means the network of individuals, organisations, resources, activities and technology involved in the creation and sale of a commodity connected with Great British Energy’s objects under section 3.”
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 18, in clause 6, page 3, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A)
(a) The Secretary of State must give a specific direction to Great British Energy that it must report to the Secretary of State on the progress made by Great British Energy towards the strategic priority of developing supply chains within the United Kingdom.
(b) A report under paragraph (a) must be made within two years of the date of Royal Assent to this Act and annually thereafter.
(c) The Secretary of State must lay a report made under paragraph (a) before Parliament.”
Andrew Bowie
Amendment 17 would introduce a specific strategic priority for Great British Energy to develop UK energy supply chains and require that an annual report be produced on the progress towards meeting that strategic priority.
We believe it is essential that our transition to net zero does not increase our reliance on foreign countries, foreign supply chains or, in particular, hostile foreign countries. We all want to see a “made in Britain” transition, where our offshore wind turbines are constructed by British manufacturing companies, are erected by highly skilled British workers and deliver clean, cheap energy for British homes and businesses. That is why I have tabled amendment 17, which would make establishing domestic supply chains a strategic priority for Great British Energy.
In the transition to net zero, we are presented with a great opportunity for investment and new jobs. As with employment, we must ensure that it is people in these islands and domestic companies that will benefit from the increase in investment that we hope to see in the new technologies in the coming years. We must not outsource our energy transition. In this transition, we will need steel for our turbines and oil for our turbines. The transition is one that spans the energy industry and incorporates the North sea.
Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)
The hon. Member mentions steel. While his party were in power for 14 years, they had the chance to intervene and support the workers at Llanwern and Port Talbot, many of whom live in my constituency. Does he not agree that if his party had done more during their 14 years in power to support those workers, we would have much greater capacity to produce our own steel and for the transfer to green steel, which would help us to have a stronger UK-based energy industry?
Andrew Bowie
I am very proud of everything that we did in government to support our steelworkers and those communities around the country that depend on those jobs. It is desperately sad to see what has happened in Port Talbot recently. That is an example of what we must avoid moving forward, and something that we must avoid happening in the North sea, for example, where workers engaged in traditional industries are fearful about where their jobs sit in the forthcoming transition. Although I do not agree that we did not do everything we could to support steelmaking at Port Talbot, I do think that it is an example to learn from and one that we must avoid in the future.
Torcuil Crichton
What the shadow Minister is describing sounds like an industrial strategy—something that we have been missing for 14 years.
Andrew Bowie
Well, not quite. We did have an industrial strategy. We had a Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. It is not an industrial strategy. The amendment aims to establish within the strategic priorities of this company a commitment to deliver a UK-based supply chain, which is something that we sought to do while in Government, with the sustainable industry reward scheme that will launch next year with the auction round for the contracts for difference, and through other programmes and investment opportunities that we were seeking to see come to fruition. I am very glad that this Government seem to be taking the challenge in this regard just as seriously as we did.
The transition we are in just now spans our entire energy industry and incorporates the North sea and our homegrown petroleum outputs. As noted by the Climate Change Committee, we will need oil and gas for decades to come, not just as an energy baseload but as a key component in the transition and in the technologies for the transition.
In our electric vehicles and our batteries, we will need lithium. In 2023, Cornish Lithium opened Britain’s first lithium mine in Cornwall, with £53.6 million investment led by the UK Infrastructure Bank, which we established in 2021, to invest in our domestic supply chain, our clean technology supply chain and our energy future.
In our solar panels, we need silver, indium and copper. In our grid systems, we need kilometres and kilometres of copper. In fact, renewable energy will drive 45% of copper demand by 2030. Our reliance on China for low-cost, clean technology and minerals should worry us all. In 2022, we imported 64% of rare earth metals and 49% of lithium batteries from China.
Andrew Bowie
I would be delighted to give way to the hon. Member for Cornwall.
Perran Moon
The hon. Member for Camborne, Redruth and Hayle—but I take the shadow Minister’s point. As he said, it is important to consider that an awful lot of our critical minerals are imported from the other side of the world, from Australasia and China, but that in Cornwall we have massive deposits of tin, lithium and tungsten. Does he agree that one opportunity that might come from GB Energy is to expand British jobs in Cornwall and areas that are extremely deprived? In that respect, might he support GB Energy?
Andrew Bowie
The hon. Gentleman almost had me —I was almost there. We support creating new jobs in Cornwall. The opening of the mine last year was an incredibly positive step. It was delivered as a result of the UK Infrastructure Bank and the £53 million investment that we drove. The future for Cornwall is incredibly bright when it comes to critical minerals and its ability to supply UK projects and, moving forward, to export across the world. We have not even touched on the potential of geothermal in Cornwall, which is huge and extensive. Cornwall will match only Aberdeen in its importance on our energy journey—nearly match, but not quite.
We need to ensure the supply chains required. The building of clean energy infrastructure will benefit British companies with as much domestic involvement in supply and manufacture as possible. Not only does that safeguard our energy future against the impacts of disruption to the international system, such as we saw during the pandemic, but it reinvests the capital at Great British Energy’s disposal into UK supply chains. Supply chains are a vital component of the employment opportunities here in the UK, as well as our energy security in future.
Harriet Cross
Does my hon. Friend agree that the supply chains that we have are used to delivering large-scale multimillion-pound projects? That is important not only for home-grown jobs, but for the success of GB Energy and any infrastructure and skills that will come out of it. We need our home-grown supply chain, which is world renowned, to help deliver this.
Andrew Bowie
My hon. Friend and constituency neighbour is absolutely right. I completely agree. She is a doughty champion for supply chain jobs based in her constituency, in mine, in that of the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South and in others across the country. One reason that we have been so critical of this Labour Government’s North sea policies—the extension and increase of the energy profits levy, the removal of investment allowances, the removal of further licences in the North sea—is the impact on the domestic supply chain jobs that exist already and, by the way, on the high-skilled jobs that will deliver the cleaner energy future that we all want to get to.
That is why I and others in Committee have been so critical in the past—it is not that we do not want to see the transition; it is that we want the oil and gas industry, and those people in the supply chain who are employed by it now, to be a part of that transition. Without a successful domestic oil and gas industry or domestic supply chain, we will not deliver any of the projects that we are speaking so glowingly about in Committee and over the past few weeks, months and years. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon and Buchan says, it is critical for the supply chain to support net zero transition.
Security of supply chain is absolutely relevant to the objectives of GB Energy and should be included as a strategic priority, hence the amendment. I also tabled amendment 18, which would introduce the direction for GB Energy to report to the Secretary of State on the progress being made towards developing domestic supply chains.
Michael Shanks
I am enjoying this debate more and more. I feel that by the end of today, or Tuesday at a push, we may get the hon. Gentleman’s support for Great British Energy. I look forward to that.
The very argument that the hon. Gentleman has put forward for both amendments emphasises the absolute failure of 14 years of his Government. The very fact that he is making those points emphasises how much they failed. I welcome the realisation, albeit somewhat late, that manufacturing in the UK and having jobs in this country delivering for the energy future are important. The Kincardine wind farm off the coast not far from his constituency—perhaps it is in his constituency—is a very good example. It was towed into place, with all the jobs offshored somewhere else. That example that shows why we need to do things differently. Great British Energy and our industrial strategy are part of that.
While I could spend this time criticising the previous Government, I will simply welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman has showed up to the party at all. This is a key part of what Great British Energy will do. The supply chains are critical, because 80% of the jobs in the oil and gas industry are in the supply chains, and the good, well-paid jobs we need for the future will be there too. I think it might have been the witness from the GMB who made a very good point about jobs in welding. That is a good example of where we can have real, well-paid jobs for the future if we invest in those skills now, and that is exactly what Great British Energy will do.
However, Great British Energy is not the only part that will deliver on those jobs. The Department for Business and Trade is also working at pace to develop an industrial strategy that will include detailed work on the supply chains, and we are working through the various taskforces launched under the previous Government and continued by this Government. For example, on the solar taskforce we have been looking clearly at how we can bring those jobs to the UK. The hon. Gentleman rightly talked about the security of where some of those manufacturing jobs are in the world—places in the world that we would rather they were not. Bringing some of that manufacturing capacity to the UK will be difficult in some of those industries, but it is important to do it so that we have resilient, diverse and sustainable supply chains.
My Department has also established an office for clean energy jobs, which will focus on developing the skills and the training for the workforce in core energy and net zero sectors around the transition, but also, critically, on bringing on the next generation of apprentices and workers in the skills and jobs that we did not know existed until the last few years. That will ensure the sustainability of our supply chains and meet our mission to make the UK a clean energy superpower.
Although it is welcome to hear the commitments from a Conservative party that has had something of a conversion on this issue, we do not think that amendments 17 and 18 are necessary to the Bill, because the Government are already committed to delivering our intentions.
Andrew Bowie
I do think that the amendments are necessary. If we are to go through the process of creating this company, we should set out as one of its objects the creation and sustainability of a UK-based supply chain, and indeed of the manufacturing jobs that come with that. For that reason, I will press amendment 17 to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
Stephen Flynn
I beg to move amendment 4, in clause 5, page 3, line 10, leave out subsection (3) and insert—
“(3) A statement under subsection (1) or a revised or replacement statement under subsection (2) will not take effect unless a draft has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”
Before I begin my remarks, it is probably best that I correct the record on behalf of the shadow Minister. It is not just in relation to Great British Energy that I have expressed some positivity; I did once watch “The Great British Bake Off” as well.
That aside, it was put to me by some members of the Labour party back in Scotland that I was not supportive of GB Energy, because I did not go through the Lobby with the Government some weeks ago, as I think the Minister referred to in his remarks today. The reason I did not go through the Lobby with the Government that day was that I was not entirely sure what GB Energy was going to do.
In fact, based on the information before us in this Bill, I am still not entirely sure what GB Energy is going to do in practice; it seems to be all things to all people. In principle, perhaps that is not a bad thing, and those who gave evidence to us put forward a number of positive arguments of the necessity for that to be the case, whether in relation to production, generation, the supply of energy or the community projects that Members have spoken about at length.
The purpose of my amendment is to ensure that the House of Commons is fully apprised of exactly what the Secretary of State intends GB Energy to achieve. That will be hugely important, particularly in the context of Scotland, because much of what has been discussed in relation to GB Energy, and the opportunities that may or may not exist, will ultimately be intrinsically linked to the success of projects in Scotland, where the majority of the UK’s renewable energy resource sits. Indeed, I think the director of the Confederation of British Industry said that it is a “golden ticket” to economic growth for the entire UK. Imagine what an independent Scotland could achieve in that context.
The point of the amendment is to ensure that the House of Commons is able to fully appraise the direction that the Secretary of State wishes to take. That might cause Labour Members some consternation, because they have just been elected with a massive majority and may well be able to set out their strategic vision, but they need to remember that they will not be in government forever. They will at some point be replaced—I am not entirely sure who will replace them; there is a decent suggestion that it will probably be by the Lib Dems rather than by the Conservatives, based on the leadership candidates.
However, the amendment would ensure that future parliamentarians and future groups of politicians will be able to apply the same scrutiny that I expect of Government today. I think it is good practice. In years to come, should the Conservative party, the Lib Dems or perhaps some other nefarious party come to control the UK state, they should not be able to do anything contrary to the wishes of Parliament without its having the ability to shape the future of what will hopefully be a successful intervention into the energy market, albeit one with very small amounts of money to drive forward the multiple goals that it seeks to achieve.
Michael Shanks
The right hon. Gentleman tempts me into discussing both independence and the future of the Conservative party, but for your sake, Sir Roger, I will not go into either, although I hope there will be such opportunities in the future. I will make two points in response to the amendment, and there is a broader point, which I will stay off for the moment, that we will return to in the next series of amendments around the role of the devolved Administrations—
Michael Shanks
The devolved Administrations in terms of the Governments—I thank the right hon. Gentleman.
The first thing to say is that the statement of strategic priorities cannot overrule the objectives in the Bill. If an incoming Government—I will not say “nefarious” or otherwise—were seeking to use Great British Energy for a whole other purpose, they would not be able to, because the legislation sets out exactly what it will be used for, and that will be in the articles of association. Those objects set the overarching framework for Great British Energy’s activities and it is right that this framework is in legislation passed by Parliament and debated here today in clause 3.
Were we to move to a point where we required parliamentary approval of the statement of strategic priorities, which is only designed to provide direction in the priorities that the Government sets for the company, we would create unnecessary burdens on the company. Going back to the points in the Lib Dem amendments from earlier, I am concerned that, rather than Great British Energy getting on with delivering, we would end up in a constant cycle in which people add various things—I think someone said “baubles” earlier on, but I am not sure that I will continue that metaphor—into the statement of strategic priorities that would take away from it actually delivering the objects that we will hopefully pass in this Bill.
Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)
Taking away labels such as “nefarious” or “baubles” and moving to the serious intent of our interventions, this is about scrutiny, and I take the point from the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South in that respect. We heard from witnesses that if the objects remain broad, they are reassured that all their issues will be contained within the statement of priorities. Will the Minister reassure us about the engagement that will happen prior to the development of those priorities? If it will not happen through the House, what will the process be? Instead of baubles, we may find bits of home-made tinsel hanging on this majestic tree, which is not exactly what was bought in the shop, to continue the metaphor.
Pippa Heylings
British-made and home-made. I think the serious issue is the extent to which there is reassurance that a statement of priorities, which everybody is accepting will be within the remit of the objects, will fulfil expectations and not steer into areas in which there will be duplication.
Michael Shanks
I think my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough has a lot to answer for, with the metaphors that have now started, but the hon. Lady makes a serious point. I would just gently challenge one point that she makes. The statement of strategic priorities is not about giving every detail on all the objects. The direction of the company is already very clear. The reason that the objects have been left broad is so that the company can explore opportunities in all those areas without having to come back and get direction on every single point.
Michael Shanks
I will answer the previous intervention first. The point of having an independent company—this is why it is used as a mechanism by Governments of all types—is that it can have the flexibility to move. That flexibility is within the very strict parameters set by Government, but with a broad scope to move into opportunities as they arise.
Wera Hobhouse
I thank the Minister for giving way. The second part of his reply answered what I am worried about, and what we as a Committee have been worried about all along, which is parliamentary scrutiny. Will the Minister advise at what point that parliamentary scrutiny can be exercised?
Michael Shanks
The hon. Lady is well versed in how Parliament works, and there are a number of mechanisms already open to Parliament to scrutinise the work of the Department and the Secretary of State. Indeed, the transparency around clause 5 is that this will be laid before Parliament in the same way that the priorities for the UK Infrastructure Bank and various other independent companies are laid before Parliament.
On the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire’s second point, which I did not get to and is a very fair point, we are not seeking to design something behind closed doors that has no engagement. I have taken a lot of meetings in the three months that I have been a Minister, and I am very happy to take many more. We want to hear a broad range of views on this and we are happy to discuss it, but there is a balance between having an open approach to how we create, draft and bring ideas together, and ending up with a document—in the end, it will not be a huge document—that just goes round a process for months on end and stops the company from getting on with what we want it to do.
We heard from all the witnesses on Tuesday that speed is important; we do not want to waste any time, and I think that the Liberal Democrats support that approach. We want to get on and do it, and that is important. As I said earlier, I will come on to the point about the devolved Governments and the engagement that we plan with them in due course.
Furthermore, in setting up a company, the company is subject to all the requirements that other companies are, in terms of Companies House and having to produce annual accounts and an annual report. The activities of the board will also, of course, be available so that people can see what decisions the company is making. It is important that this company is at arm’s length from Government but has all the benefits of being publicly owned, in that it is required to manage the stewardship of public funds in a careful and accountable way.
In my view, the amendment is unnecessary, as the processes are already in place to scrutinise the work of Great British Energy and the work of the Department more generally. We will not be accepting the amendment today.
Stephen Flynn
I thank the Minister for his reply. I gently suggest that, if he were still sitting on the Opposition Benches, his view would be slightly different. I simply remind him in that context that he will not always be sitting on the Government side. If a future Secretary of State decides to change the strategic priorities of Great British Energy, then I am sure, at that point, he and his colleagues would like to have the ability to review, revise and discuss that within the democratic structures that we have. On that basis, I will press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Chair
I think that we can safely say that the Noes have it.
Question accordingly negatived.
Stephen Flynn
I beg to move amendment 5, in clause 5, page 3, line 12, leave out “consult” and insert
“seek and gain consent of”.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 7, in clause 5, page 3, line 28, leave out “(4) to (6)” and insert
“(5) and (6) or to gain consent imposed by subsection (4)”.
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 5.
Amendment 6, in clause 5, page 3, line 29, at end insert—
“(7A) The Secretary of State must by regulations provide for a process by which consent can be signified under subsection (4).”
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 5.
Stephen Flynn
These amendments are hopefully self-explanatory to Members. I am extremely keen to hear the Minister’s thoughts on them. As I referred to in my initial remarks, much of the success of the UK’s energy sector will be derived from the success of renewables projects in Scotland, whether that is the continuation of onshore wind, further development of fixed-bottom offshore wind, floating offshore wind, pumped storage hydro, green hydrogen, blue hydrogen, tidal, wave, and so on. The sun sometimes shines as well, so we might get some solar panels in there too—perhaps just in Na h-Eileanan an Iar, though, as opposed to Aberdeen.
I know that the Minister has been engaging proactively with my colleagues in Scotland, that there have been a lot of positive discussions, and that Mr Maier was up with the First Minister in recent weeks to discuss the future outlook for GB Energy. If the respect agenda that the new Labour Government appear to have put in place is to mean something, it is important that they are willing and confident enough in their arguments to seek the fulsome consent of the Scottish Parliament—not just the Scottish National party, because I am conscious, as I said earlier, that it may not always be the Scottish National party that is there.
Torcuil Crichton
I rise not just to reassure the right hon. Gentleman that the sun does shine in the Western Isles, but to note that these amendments seem quite complex—blocking amendments, actually, that would prevent the business and progress of GB Energy. They read a bit like last year’s script because, as he mentioned, the Scottish Government and the UK Government work hand in hand now. My friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, and the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, who is a frenemy, speak on a regular—daily or at most weekly—basis. The Governments work together, rendering these clauses unnecessary.
Stephen Flynn
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, although I am a bit disappointed that he regards seeking the consent of Scotland’s nationally elected Parliament as a blocking amendment. That is quite a Westminster mentality that he has adopted already in the few short weeks that he has been here—perhaps that is an indication of where his party intends to go in the months and years to come. Notwithstanding that, because I do not believe it was a necessary or helpful intervention in that context, I would be very keen to hear from the Minister on why he does not believe he should seek the consent of Scotland’s Parliament.
Michael Shanks
These are very important amendments, as I alluded to when discussing the last group of amendments. Since I became a Minister, I have worked very hard to reset the relationship. Indeed, the Prime Minister’s first official visit was, deliberately, to Scotland. He has set a clear expectation that all Ministers should be engaging with not just the Scottish Government but the Welsh Government and the Administration in Northern Ireland. That is particularly important in the energy space, because our priorities are broadly aligned. There are slight differences in targets and projects, but we all want to move in the same direction across all Governments of the United Kingdom, which is beneficial.
Andrew Bowie
I must take issue with some of the language about this reset—the normalisation of relations and the new respect agenda. We had an incredibly constructive working relationship with the Scottish Government while we were in government. Indeed, had we not, none of the projects that we see established now—we have talked about having the first to the fifth-largest offshore wind farms—and none of the discussions we are having about new technologies would actually have gotten off the ground.
A lot is made of the fact that the new Prime Minister’s first visit in office was to Scotland, but it was also the first visit of Prime Ministers Theresa May, Boris Johnson and my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak). Our commitment to working with the Scottish Government was demonstrated by what we delivered in our time in office. I very much hope that the Minister continues to enjoy his relationship with the Scottish Government, although I worry that as we move towards 2026 and the devolved election, this new warm relationship between the Labour party and the Scottish National party may become somewhat chillier.
Michael Shanks
I would have stopped short of the hon. Gentleman’s final point, which I will not repeat; I think that was more to salve his own conscience than to add any value to the debate. He may want to speak to the other side about some of those discussions to get a sense of whether the joyous relationship that he described was reciprocated. The fact is that if we want to achieve outcomes across the UK, whatever the political differences—they are significant, and he is right that they will become more significant in the few years ahead—we still need to be the grown-ups in the room and work to deliver them. My engagement has been very much around how we bring in the views of Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish colleagues.
Catherine Fookes
It is a bit rich hearing the Opposition talk about how to work with the devolved Administrations. I am pleased to see in the Bill that Welsh Ministers will be consulted. The previous relationship between the Conservative Government here and the Labour Government in Cardiff was appalling. Often, the phone was not picked up to Mark Drakeford when he was First Minister. Could the Minister confirm that he will work with the Welsh Government and with our organisation, Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, which is similar to Great British Energy, and how he will do that?
Michael Shanks
I thank my hon. Friend for her well-made point. Across the UK, we are resetting the way we do these relationships. It is not just the visits and set-piece moments; it is the day-to-day engagement and agreement. There is fulsome discussion and disagreement, but it leads to the view that, actually, we generally agree on the same outcomes and want to work out how to work co-operatively to achieve them. That is what the public would want us to do across these islands.
I will point out some of the engagement we have already had. The First Minister met recently with the start-up chair of Great British Energy and the Cabinet Secretary. I have met the Cabinet Secretary almost every week that I have been in post. It is important to talk through these issues and we think that consultation on the statement of strategic priorities is incredibly important.
I object to the amendment to move to a consent process for exactly the same reason that I gave in answer to the previous point. It is not that I do not want any engagement, but that I do not want us to get tied up in a process. In our engagement with Scottish colleagues, the challenge is how the Government reflect the view of the Scottish Parliament without everything going back through a process in committees. My real worry is that we get tied up in months and months of engagement, trying to find dates in calendars to discuss elements of the strategic plan, and do not actually get on with delivering things.
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
The right hon. Member for Aberdeen South made an important point about elected representatives from Scotland having a role in the strategic priorities for Great British Energy. But this is the United Kingdom Parliament, in which we have good and appropriate representation of Scottish electors, and very strongly and proudly so on the Labour Benches. Surely the UK Parliament and the UK Government are well-positioned to reflect the interests of the whole United Kingdom rather than, as the Minister is indicating, going through multiple repetitive processes that would hamper the ability of Great British Energy to achieve the goals that the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South surely wants for his own constituents.
Michael Shanks
I take that point. I will come back to the role of the UK Government in Great British Energy in a moment, as it is important. Of course I want to engage with Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish colleagues in this place, but I also want to find a way to engage constructively with the devolved Parliaments and Administrations, not just on the statement of priorities but far beyond that. We have already had conversations about how the board of Great British Energy might engage with the Scottish Government on a more regular basis. We are very open to those ideas, but—to come back to this point briefly—it is important that Great British Energy is funded and directed by the UK Government and therefore ultimately responsible to the UK Parliament.
Andrew Bowie
I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being incredibly generous with his time. Subsection (6) deals with Northern Ireland in the context of what we are discussing. Energy is a devolved competency within Northern Ireland, which works on an all-Ireland grid to deliver electricity on the island of Ireland. Is that the reason the language in that subsection is slightly different? It refers to consulting the Department for the Economy, as opposed to consulting Welsh Ministers and Scottish Ministers in the previous two subsections. How will GB Energy and the Department interact with our Northern Irish colleagues, given that GB Energy will be a body of the UK Government and paid for by UK taxpayers, but will have very little role in delivering energy in Northern Ireland?
Michael Shanks
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that important point. Early on in the development of the Bill, we had a genuine conversation with the Northern Irish Executive about whether Northern Ireland should be included in the Bill at all, on the basis—exactly as he says—that energy is completely transferred in Northern Ireland. We agreed that it was better to keep Northern Ireland in scope so that some of the benefits may come to Northern Ireland, in particular around skills and supply chains, but clearly the relationship will be very different. We do not anticipate Great British Energy funding specific projects, for example, for the reasons that he outlined.
The broader point here is a reiteration of an earlier point: Great British Energy will not have special powers compared with any other company. It is therefore important to recognise that if Great British Energy is delivering projects in Scotland, it will have to conform to Scottish planning and all the other regulations and consenting regimes in Scotland exactly as any other company operating in Scotland would. It will not have additional powers to supersede any of the regulations set by the Scottish Parliament. That is important because, clearly, although the funding will come from the UK Government through Great British Energy, the delivery of those projects, if in Scotland, will largely be the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament through the environmental planning and consenting regimes. Great British Energy will not have additional powers to supersede any of those regulations.
Stephen Flynn
I do not know whether I misheard the Minister’s last point, but I am not sure that we should view consulting the Scottish Parliament as burdensome. In fact, with both the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Senedd, and indeed with the Northern Ireland Assembly, there is a benefit for the United Kingdom in being proactive in its positive engagement with the devolved Governments and Administrations on these isles.
Notwithstanding that, I am pleased that I have been able to get this matter on the record. It is not unusual for this sort of provision to appear in legislation that applies across the UK that may carry implications for the devolved areas. In that regard, I will not press the amendment to a vote. However, I say to the Minister that my colleagues and I will hold him to account on this. As he knows, the delivery of projects relies on the Scottish Government and the UK Government working in practice on planning, consenting, the Crown Estate Scotland and the associated infrastructure. I would hate to see a situation where the strategic priorities of GB Energy, and the whole of the UK Government, change and they seek to impose their will on the Scottish Parliament in the way the previous Government did, which is why we did not have positive relations.
Michael Shanks
I agree with the broad arc of what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, but there is no mechanism for Great British Energy to impose anything on the Scottish Parliament. The whole point I was making is that it is important to recognise that Great British Energy has to operate within whatever framework any Scottish Government set for it.
Stephen Flynn
Forgive me, Sir Roger; I think the Minister and I were in agreement there. The point I was making was that a future Secretary of State may seek to change the framework of GB Energy, and that would cause me concern in that regard. However, as it stands, I am content with the Minister’s comments and will not seek to press the amendment to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Chair
I am satisfied that matters arising from clause 5 have been adequately debated, so I do not propose to call a stand part debate.
Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Anna Turley.)