Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place) (England) Regulations 2020
(4 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Bethell
That the Regulations laid before the House on 23 July be approved.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con) [V]
My Lords, I beg to move that the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place) (England) Regulations 2020 and the three instruments amending those regulations on the Order Paper in the name of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care be approved.
These regulations were made by the Secretary of State on 23 July and came into force on 24 July. The Government introduced the regulations to make it mandatory to wear face coverings in some indoor settings, such as shops, supermarkets and indoor transport hubs in England, and we have subsequently amended them to ensure that we continually took the necessary steps to protect public health as lockdown restrictions eased over the summer. Amendments were made on 8 August, 22 August and 28 August accordingly to extend the requirement to wear a face covering to a wider list of indoor settings now open to members of the public, providing clarity on who is exempt, the circumstances in which a face covering is not required and around continuing to ensure the enforcement powers given to police and Transport for London are reasonable and proportionate.
These regulations are helping to save lives. They are exceptional measures, brought forward to mitigate the unprecedented impact of the Covid-19 pandemic, and comply with all the Government’s obligations in relation to human rights. I urge the Chamber to approve these regulations and the amending regulations so that we may continue to use these powers to protect the public.
The people in this country have played and continue to play a vital role in helping us in our national effort to beat coronavirus. We therefore introduced these regulations to give members of the public the confidence to visit public indoor spaces safely and enhance protections for those working in these settings. This was explained by the Secretary of State when he addressed Parliament on 14 July and announced these measures, and reiterated this week by my ministerial colleague, the honourable Nadine Dorries, in the other place.
Since 24 July it has been mandatory to wear a face covering in indoor places such as shops, supermarkets and enclosed shopping centres. We have received positive support from the retail sector, including the chief executive of the British Retail Consortium, who has said that face coverings can
“make shoppers feel even more confident about returning to the High Street.”
Additionally, the chair of the Federation of Small Businesses has said:
“As mandatory face coverings are introduced, small firms know that they have a part to play in the nation’s recovery both physically and financially, and I'm sure this will be welcomed by them.”
The Government continue to review and refine their advice on face coverings, informed by the latest scientific evidence. Prior to these regulations, the Government had already been encouraging the public to wear face coverings in enclosed spaces where they may find it difficult to maintain social distance and come into contact with others they would not usually meet. Furthermore, face coverings have been mandatory on public transport in England since 15 June. While face coverings are not a substitute for social distancing and good hand hygiene, the scientific evidence suggests that when used correctly, face coverings may have some benefit in reducing the likelihood of those with the infection passing it on to others, particularly if they are asymptomatic.
As further sections of the economy have reopened and more people have been returning to work, we have amended the scope of the regulations to cover an extended list of indoor public settings such as museums, galleries and places of worship. Additional amendments aimed to provide further clarity to members of the public on where face coverings would be required, who is exempt and the circumstances which may constitute a reasonable excuse. The regulations have also been amended to help deter repeat offenders across public transport and indoor settings. Similar measures have been introduced across the UK with the requirement to wear face coverings in shops, other indoor premises and on public transport—and internationally in countries such as France, Germany and Spain, to name a few.
I will now outline what the regulations do and then set out the policies and processes underlying their development, implementation, monitoring and review. The regulations we are considering today require members of the public to wear a face covering in relevant places, such as shops, supermarkets, enclosed shopping centres, banks, post offices and indoor transport hubs. There have subsequently been amendments to include further indoor premises, including museums, galleries, cinemas, bingo halls, libraries, community centres, public areas in hotels, crematoria and places of worship.
The regulations do not apply to children under the age of 11 or to employees working in those settings. The wearing of any protective clothing or personal protective equipment by the workforce is a matter for their employers following a risk assessment and is part of their health and safety responsibilities.
The regulations include a definition of “shop” to ensure that this captures the majority of retail premises, as well as a list of further premises included and a list of premises excluded from the requirement to wear a face covering—for example, a gym. Those lists have changed as more premises have been able to open.
The guidance on GOV.UK describes a face covering as a covering of any type covering the wearer’s nose and mouth. People need to make or buy their own, and guidance has been published online that shows how to make and wear a face covering. We are asking people not to use medical-grade PPE, which should be reserved for health and care workers. However, someone wearing actual PPE would be compliant with the regulations.
While the Government expect that the vast majority of people will comply with the rules, as they have done throughout the pandemic, the regulations give powers to the police and TfL officers to enforce the requirement to wear a face covering. TfL officers may enforce only inside a transport hub. This could include denying entry to the relevant place and/or directing members of the public to wear a face covering. The police will use their usual “Four Es” approach: engage, explain, encourage, and enforce only as a last resort. In the event that a person fails to comply with a direction by a police constable or TfL officer, they are able to remove the member of the public from that relevant place.
The regulations also include powers for police constables, police community support officers or, in relation to the relevant TfL hub, a TfL officer, to issue a fixed penalty notice to anyone over the age of 18 who is in breach of the law. This is a fixed penalty of £100, reduced to £50 if paid within 14 days of a notice being issued. Amendments that came into force on 28 August allow for fines to double for each offence under these regulations or the equivalent regulations on public transport up to a maximum value of £3,200. This is intended to address repeat offenders across indoor settings and public transport. There is no reduction for early payment from the second or subsequent penalties. The National Police Chiefs’ Council data published on 27 August shows that eight fixed penalty notices were issued between 24 July and 17 August.
Although we want as many people as possible to wear a face covering, we recognise that some people are not able to wear one for a variety of reasons. The regulations exempt children under the age of 11, employees or officials acting in the course of their employment in their premises and emergency responders when on duty. Subsequent amendments to the regulations to extend the scope of indoor places led us to add an exemption for elite sportspersons acting in the course of their employment, training or undertaking competition, and pupils under the age of 19 undertaking education or training within a place of worship as part of the curriculum of a religious school.
Although there is no general exemption on health or disability grounds, we recognise that for some, wearing a face covering is not possible on medical or equalities grounds or would cause distress or difficulty, and that there are certain situations where wearing a face covering is not practical or reasonable. The regulations therefore make provision for “reasonable excuse”, which may apply in certain circumstances and which provides persons in those circumstances with a reasonable excuse for not complying with the requirements set out in the regulations.
The regulations set out a non-exhaustive list of specific circumstances that are considered to be a reasonable excuse for not wearing a face covering. This includes where a person is unable to put on, wear or remove a face covering because of a physical or mental illness, impairment or disability, or where a person is speaking to or providing assistance to someone who relies on lip-reading, clear sound or facial expressions to communicate.
We have also taken into account other circumstances where there is a reasonable excuse to fail to wear a face covering, or where a face covering can be removed for reasons of safety or practicality. Members of the public can remove their face covering to avoid harm or injury to themselves or others, to take medication and, if it is reasonably necessary, to eat or drink. People do not have to wear a face covering if they are entering a relevant place to avoid injury or to escape a risk of harm and do not have a face covering with them.
Employees in these settings can also ask a member of the public to remove their face covering for identification purposes. We have been working with stakeholders to make sure that staff and the public are aware of the exemptions in place and that some people may have a reasonable excuse for not wearing a face covering that may not be apparent. We are also clear that people do not need to prove that they are exempt from the requirements to wear a face covering or have a reasonable excuse, and they should not be challenged about this. Authorised persons enforcing these regulations are expected to use their discretion and judgment when considering reasonable excuses and exemptions in the circumstances.
These regulations have been supported by a communications campaign explaining where face coverings are mandatory, how to wear one safely and encouraging understanding and awareness of those who may not be able to wear a face covering. We have set out the full detail of this policy in our guidance.
As expected, reports indicate widespread compliance with the requirement to wear a face covering in relevant indoor settings, and surveys suggest significant public support. The Office for National Statistics public surveys showed that from 29 July to 4 September, at least 96% of adults in England had worn a face covering when shopping. This figure has remained consistently high. However, we should not expect participation to reach 100% as there will always be people who are exempt or have valid reasons why they cannot wear a face covering.
A review clause is included in the regulations, requiring a review of the need for the requirements imposed by the regulations within six months. A sunset clause is also included so that the regulations expire at the end of 12 months after the day they came into force.
We will continue to monitor the impact and effectiveness of this policy in the weeks and months ahead, and we will develop our approach to enforcement and communicating the policy as necessary.
Baroness Thornton
At end to insert “and that this House welcomes the introduction of the Regulations, but regrets the delay in bringing forward the Regulations as Her Majesty’s Government has advised the public to wear face coverings in enclosed public spaces since 11 May, announced that face coverings would be mandatory in shops from 24 July on 14 July, and laid these Regulations under the made affirmative procedure on 23 July; further regrets that this delay has caused confusion over where people will have to wear face coverings due to the absence of detailed legal requirements being available in advance; and notes the concerns of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in its 19th Report, published on 25 June, which urged Her Majesty’s Government ‘to ensure that the legislation follows on more closely from any announcement that they have made’.”
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, this amendment is by way of protest at how this issue has been mishandled by the Government.
I hope the House will understand that we on these Benches do not oppose the introduction of the wearing of masks, but we regret the truly incompetent way in which it is being done. We regret the delay in the regulations, as Her Majesty’s Government have been advising the public to wear face coverings in enclosed public spaces since 11 May and announced on 14 July that face coverings would be mandatory in shops from 24 July. They laid these regulations under the affirmative procedure on 23 July.
Further, we regret that this delay has caused confusion over where people have to wear face coverings, due to the absence of detailed legal requirements being made available in advance. The detailed regulations that employers, shopkeepers and others needed to know about to ensure that they complied with the law were published the day before the regulations became active, meaning that staff training, compliance and other such issues were dealt with without proper guidelines or information.
This is very serious. We want people to be safe and to follow the necessary restrictions, but they will not take the Government seriously and many will not obey the rules because of the lack of clear communication in a timely fashion. That is the cause of our regret.
In its 19th report, published on 25 June, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee urged Her Majesty’s Government
“to ensure that the legislation follows on more closely from any announcement that they have made”.
It said that
“even a short gap between regulations being laid and their coming into effect would better enable those affected to prepare, having seen the law’s actual detailed requirements (rather than just the headline announcement). While we fully understand the need for legislation to take immediate effect when imposing lockdown measures to protect public health, the justification is less strong when relaxations are being contemplated”,
as we have already said. The committee said that it was
“aware that a number of COVID-19 instruments enable powers that can be switched on or off according to current infection levels, or are subject to review every 21 or 28 days: it would assist the House and the Committee if the Explanatory Memorandum in such cases included specific information about how and where the outcome of any review is to be promulgated and how Parliament is to be informed of any change of status.”
The Minister needs to take these issues into account. The House needs to know whether any lessons have been learned; that is the point of my amendment.
Finally, I thank the Minister for calling me yesterday to explain that he was not going to be present in person today. I am sure that, wherever he is, he will be bashing those raves down. I beg to move.
Lord Greaves (LD)
My Lords, I support the amendment and thank the Minister for his thorough explanation of the new regulations and how they will work, which is very helpful. I particularly support the part of the amendment that
“regrets the delay in bringing forward the Regulations”
back in the spring. Indeed, I regret the fact that the Government were not advising people to wear face masks even earlier—in particular in the early days of the virus, when there was a lot of concern about the lack of PPE generally and face masks were a substitute for people in care homes and so on who could not get hold of proper PPE. Nevertheless, face masks were better than nothing.
I congratulate people all over the country who set about making them on their sewing machines at home and distributing them—particularly a group in Colne who call themselves the Maskateers and ended up producing thousands of face masks initially for free distribution to local care homes and so on when they simply had nothing else. It was appalling that this was necessary but highly commendable that they did it. When the care homes began to get proper equipment, they continued making them and made them available to the general public for a donation, which has been to the great benefit of the local hospice—so not everything is bad in what has happened as far as Covid is concerned.
When I was cut off by time in the previous debate, I was talking about the fact that in our borough we had got to the top of the league table of the incidence of positive tests and were working very hard indeed to bring it down. In his reply, the Minister talked about the need for dedicated local outbreak plans. The point I was making was that that was exactly what we had. A lot of people were working very hard, based on the accepted mantra of “test, test, test”, then “track, track, track” the contacts and follow up to make sure that they were are isolating. That is what we were doing.
That effective local work was destroyed in one day when the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State went on television and appeared to be blaming people who were not symptomatic for wanting tests. In our part of the world, with the full agreement of people at national level, we had been encouraging everybody to go and get tests so that we knew what was happening and where the problems were, and then—in the streets and areas where the main problems were—going and knocking on doors and getting people to do it. That is what I meant when I said that the Government had pulled the rug from under the work that was being done locally—and unfortunately our numbers are now going up again.
Baroness Hooper (Con) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the clarifications from my noble friend as to the purpose and operation of these regulations. I also welcome the opportunity to question him about them, even if it is ex post facto.
As someone who was reluctant to wear a mask, I now find them rather comforting, and I predict that when the weather gets really cold, mask wearing will become positively popular. On the whole in the United Kingdom, our rules so far in this respect have been less stringent than in some other countries. For example, in Spain, even in holiday resorts, the wearing of masks outdoors as well as in shops, restaurants and so on is compulsory.
However, as has already been said by previous speakers, and indeed in the previous debate, there is considerable confusion among the general public. I appreciate the need for flexibility and change to respond to changing circumstances, but it is essential to get the message across.
The Government have issued guidance in relation to all these regulations. Can my noble friend tell us how this guidance and advice is made available to the general public? Most people get their information from television, radio and newspapers, but it is often interpreted and rephrased, which sometimes adds to the confusion. Further, can my noble friend tell us whether guidance has been issued in other languages and whether the guidance includes advice about hygiene in relation to face coverings, which I fear could become a germ trap if not regularly cleaned?
To add to the confusion, I note that these regulations apply only to England. It is to be hoped that those living and moving on a regular basis across United Kingdom internal borders are not faced with different sets of regulations and penalties if they do not comply with them. Did any consultation take place with the devolved Administrations before the issuing of this guidance to avoid any such added confusion?
I look forward to my noble friend’s replies, not only to my questions but to the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, with which I have some sympathy.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, is now not participating in the debate, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Flight.
Lord Flight (Con)
My Lords, taking the Motions we are discussing now and the previous ones, there are 50 speakers in total. It speaks for itself that 50 people care about this particular area of legislation. I see it rather as Sweden versus lockdown, in that there are very much two camps of thought on this territory. Bit I start by congratulating my noble friend Lord Bethell on the thoroughness of his explanation today.
Sweden gets to be known as the herd immunity group. People are obliged to wear masks but there is no facility for fining them. The UK laid down statutory instruments requiring people to wear them, with fines if they do not. The face coverings are with the aim of reducing the spread of Covid-19 and the regulations include a list of places where people must wear face coverings. The regulations add places to be covered when they are reviewed every year. The approach is designed to shelter people from contact but does not grow immunity, whereas the Sweden approach is in essence to permit immunity to grow and so far looks as if it has been successful. Not many masks are yet compulsory. There is the key issue of older people who may have health failings such as asthma and diabetes and need full medical treatment. It will be interesting to see how Sweden deals with that aspect of things.
I conclude by saying that, properly managed, health masks work. I have a son who is training to be a doctor in New York. He and other young men and women are regularly in hospitals that are badly affected by the current problems. Remarkably, there is almost a nil incidence of paramedics working in his hospital being struck down by Covid-19. That says that masks work. They will work in the short term, but my worry is the long term and the potential repeat of the illness. That is where the Swedish approach needs more attention and application.
Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I promise I can tell the time. The Minister will have realised by now that there have been massive mixed messages. It is his job to get that sorted. We have heard that from both sides of the House.
I have a couple of questions to ask, then a couple on behalf of my noble friend Lady Andrews. Why are we still buying masks from China when there is clear evidence that, in the ordinary sense of the word, slave labour is used in some of the factories? My other point is that masks cover the mouth and nose. What about the eyes? I recall seeing a man in Wuhan back in January or February who said that when he went out shopping he covered his mouth and nose and wore his swimming goggles. Have the Government done any research, or seen any, on the effect of wearing spectacles on those entering hospital in the spring or summer months in respect of the virus?
My noble friend Lady Andrews, who regrets she cannot be with us, has a couple of questions, which I will ask in the time available. Can the Minister tell us in what respects the UK continues to follow the World Health Organization’s advice on medical personnel and medical masks, or on wearing masks in the whole community? Can he tell us what research is in process to establish the relative effectiveness of the three-layer fabric masks that most people in the community are now wearing? What tests are being done on filtration, for example? Are some materials better than others at keeping out viruses? Can this information be made available?
Also, would the Minister agree that it might be a good idea to ask universities to require students who return to campus to wear masks when attending any lectures, seminars and especially lab sessions, where social distancing might be harder to maintain? This would be one move to stop the UK always being behind the curve. I will refrain from asking any further questions and conclude to try to make up for the abuse of time that just took place.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, I support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. As I said in previous debates, we should not be debating these regulations so long after their introduction. Nevertheless, the debates we do have are important. I am convinced that the persistence of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, in helping the Government shift their position on face masks, albeit grudgingly, has saved lives. One just wishes that face masks, like so many other measures, had been introduced earlier than they were.
I have recently been travelling by train quite a bit and taking the tube. From my experience, South Western Railway is not doing a bad job. At present, trains are long enough to socially distance and there are regular announcements by guards on the trains. Mask wearing is now the norm on station concourses such as Waterloo, as I asked the Government for in July. One thing I will ask the Minister to take a look at is that you never see sanitising gel dispensers anywhere near ticket machines. It might be advisable to carry your own bottle, but not everyone will.
Most people comply with mask wearing, at least in the locations so far legislated for, but a minority still do not, even considering exemptions. This week, I counted four separate individuals in one uncrowded tube carriage not wearing masks. Some railway workers and shop workers, who often stack shelves and are therefore out in the open, are not doing so either. It is not mandatory, but it is inconsistent.
Wearing masks protects others. One wishes that the Government believed in this measure more, but the equivocal stance they take makes room for naysayers, including celebrities. The science is not ambiguous, as the Minister quoted the CMO as saying this week. I ask him to look at the summary by Jeremy Howard and Trisha Greenhalgh of more than 100 studies concluding the effectiveness of masks. In March, the head of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention said that the mistake Europeans were making was not wearing them. This week, the virologist Robert Redfield, director of the United States CDCP, said that face masks might be a more effective tool in limiting the spread of Covid than a vaccine. This begs the question of how masks could be deployed further to tackle the increase in cases we are now seeing. I suggest this could include groups of schoolchildren walking to and from school.
I also ask the Minster to take a look at a new study from Florida Atlantic University, which concludes that cloth masks are significantly more effective than either visors or masks with valves. Droplets get in under visors. Visors look smart, but too many are using them as an alternative, rather than an additional form of protection, as is mandatory for hairdressers. The Government’s guidance does not say much about visors; it could say more.
Lord Hayward (Con)
My Lords, I start by giving credit to Government Ministers who, despite all the difficulties, have faced an enormous, moving task throughout the last months. It is not something we know clearly about, and, as has just been indicated, the science changes. I have sympathy with what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, but equally, in these difficult circumstances the guidance is changing on a daily basis from one part of the world to another, as has just been indicated. We are discovering information about this pandemic from wherever it may happen to come, largely from university and medical centre research from all over the world.
As the Minister said, the regulations impose a duty—all regulations do—but they also send a message. The problem, as the noble Earl just identified, is that some are avoiding that duty and others are not receiving the message. I was interested in my noble friend the Minister’s use of the figure that 96% have used masks in shops. We can all phrase questions to get the answer we want. I suggest that the people doing those surveys should go to any supermarket or get on any bus in London, because the figures are nowhere near that. A businessman texted me this morning to say that it was a 30% failure rate. I would say that it is probably slightly less than that, but when I was coming in this morning the only person on the upper deck of the bus with me was not wearing a mask.
That comes the question of where the duty lies to apply the regulations. At the moment, the police have that duty. One of my neighbours is a night-time bus driver. He says that he would not dare attempt to apply it for fear of being beaten up, which one can well understand in inner-city London. However, he does not have the backing of the law in relation to the application. I believe that large shops and bus operators should be told that they must implement it and that they have the responsibility themselves. We cannot just ask the police to impose the regulations. I therefore ask for strict implementation in some places.
On the other hand, I note that my noble friend Lord Robathan is due to speak. His wife is the leader of Westminster Council. I was in Soho the other day, which is absolutely moving and alive. I suggest that some of those who operate the regulations in this House should visit to see how they are applied in Westminster. Having said that, I make one concluding observation: another part of the regulations would be that, in stress areas, people should be required to wear masks when walking on the streets alongside restaurants.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]
[Inaudible.]—but on four separate occasions, on 8, 24 and 29 July, and again on 14 September, I raised the issue of valves on masks. I have argued consistently throughout that the only people who should wear valve masks are medics working in a clinical setting. Therefore, for the fifth time of asking, as they say, will Ministers rule out N95s and other valve masks, apart from in clinical settings? They serve to protect only the wearer and not potential aerosol-contaminated recipients. Valves leak. Valve masks are designed to make it easier to breathe out because their one-way valves release exhaled air without forcing it through a filter. There are now far too many valve masks in circulation, giving the public an exaggerated sense of safety.
I appeal to the Government to please address this issue. A flood of well-documented material is available for officials to consider. The research review document Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review deals with transmissibility in both pre-symptomatic and asymptomatic cases, and, in particular, with the filtering characteristics of masks. Officials should read it.
However, of particular interest is the position in San Francisco, where a public health emergency order has been issued, stating:
“Violation of or failure to comply with this Order is a misdemeanor punishable by fine, imprisonment, or both.”
The order defines non-compliant masks and states:
“Any mask that incorporates a one-way valve … that is designed to facilitate easy exhaling allows droplets to be released from the mask, putting others nearby at risk … must not be used to comply with this Order”.
How do Ministers respond to that?
On associated matters, I also ask that Ministers review my Question to the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, of 9 September, reported at col. 785 of Hansard, on legal liability and that I be given a full, considered response. I also ask that the Minister respond to my question on the use of positive-pressure masking systems, which I raised on 24 July with the noble Lord, Lord Bethell. My noble friend Lord Rooker raised the issue of three-layer fabric masks—the subject of a question from my noble friend Lady Andrews. I hope that Ministers can reply comprehensively to that particularly important question.
Baroness Noakes (Con)
My Lords, I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said about delays in making regulations and parliamentary scrutiny. However, I cannot support her amendment, because it starts by welcoming the regulations, which I do not.
The Government have been all over the place on face coverings. Way back in March, the Government’s scientific advisers, led by the Chief Medical Officer, were clear that masks should not be worn. Not only was there no evidence of widespread benefit from wearing masks but the disbenefits were acknowledged—for example, that they trap the virus close to the face. As I understand it, the CMO and his team still believe that, at best, the evidence is ambiguous, although as the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, showed us earlier, a variety of scientific views is available.
The World Health Organization—another body which has not covered itself in glory in the coronavirus outbreak—did not recommend the widespread use of masks until early June, and even then its advice was firm only in relation to the wearing of medical-grade masks by health professionals and those who are symptomatic. In relation to the general public, there was merely a recommendation for Governments to encourage the wearing of masks where community transmission could occur. The WHO said that there was still no firm evidence that the wearing of non-medical-grade face masks was effective and that social distancing and hand hygiene remained the key defences.
As is typical of this Government’s response to the virus, they were not content with guidance or encouragement, but went the full distance with legal requirements and fines. They started with public transport in June and went on from there in July and August with the orders before us. They have even increased the maximum fines.
The results are not logical. I cannot be fined for not keeping a two-metre distance in a supermarket queue or for not washing my hands, both of which are said to be effective actions in containing the spread of the virus, but I can be fined for not wearing a face covering, even though the evidence for efficacy is lacking. In addition, the regulations allow any old face covering, even though it could be dangerously soiled or inherently ineffective, such as a single-layer gauze face covering. This is policy-making at its worst.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]
My Lords, debating these instruments after the event and after the earlier messaging against masks is a sorry state of affairs. I wish that there had been encouragement of voluntary wearing of cloth coverings at an earlier stage.
I am not a medical expert, although I am a physicist and mathematician with some experience in the spreading computations that are relevant for viruses. I also practised for over 25 years as a patent attorney, where I learned that it is often necessary to deal with and protect inventions at a stage well before the high level of academic proof is reached—indeed, adherence to academic levels of proof has held back until too late some commercial exploitation of university research. Against that background, I cannot help but think that the need for academic levels of evidence, prevailing over a precautionary principle, in the matter of masks did not serve us well.
There is a reason we have the adage “Coughs and sneezes spread diseases”. The science is pretty clear that Covid is spread by droplets that come out of infected people’s mouths or noses when coughing, sneezing, talking and even breathing. If coughing into your elbow or a tissue is a safeguard against spreading, it seems logical that so is a mask. What was wrong with a precautionary principle? I have no evidence that my young grandchildren will run into a road and get hurt, but I hold their hands just in case.
The Government followed the line taken by the WHO about there being mixed evidence and there was panic about using up supplies of PPE, but it is astonishing how little face coverings were discussed in NERVTAG and SAGE, with minutes recording reasons to oppose masks rather than any precautionary principle. The reasons were that they would create fear and anxiety but also a false sense of security; that they would lead to the abandonment of hand washing and social distancing, although there was no suggestion that they might be a visual reminder; and that they would lead to more touching of faces, although in my own case I found them quite good at reminding me to do it less. The “not to mask” reasons were not tested to levels of academic rigour and confused the message just in time for the U-turn and compulsion, with, most probably, lower levels of adherence as a result.
Lord Blencathra (Con)
My Lords, I support these regulations, but I urge my noble friend the Minister to go further and simplify the rules on wearing face masks.
First, I agree 100% with my former Cumbrian sparring partner, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. Yes, I know that there is often a huge sigh when he makes the same point over and again, but I think that he is absolutely right: face masks should be worn by everyone, every time and in every place, except when in one’s own home or when eating or drinking in a properly socially distanced establishment.
The government line is that there is no conclusive evidence that face masks work. However, if that is the case, why have all medical staff for the last six months made such a terrible fuss when they have not had enough of them? Every doctor and nurse wears a face mask, and, if they work for the medical profession, they can work for everyone else. There is good evidence that, even if they do not stop the inhalation of every droplet, nevertheless they reduce the overall load of infection inhaled. There is now cast-iron evidence that the initial intake of the virus is the crucial thing between a mild infection and a life-threatening one.
Just as I approve of simplifying all those bubble rules that we had into a rule of six, so I approve of simplifying all our face-mask-wearing rules. I ask my noble friend to tell the media to stop whingeing about not meeting granny at Christmas. Christmas is three months away and anything can happen in the meantime.
On a train, passengers and crew wear masks most of the time, but shop assistants are exempt, it seems. I was in a shop last week and every shopper was wearing a mask, but a guy filling the shelves had no mask and was coughing and wheezing like an old sheep with lungworm. How does that encourage others to obey the law? I am a libertarian and—the Lord Chairman would strongly disapprove of this—if someone kills themselves with 60 cigarettes a day, I do not mind so long as it does not affect others and I do not have to pay for it. That is why I deeply resent those who are guzzling themselves obese and expect NHS taxpayers to pay the bill for their diabetes treatment. So I do not care if people cram themselves into a ghastly Ryanair flight or pack a pub and get Covid-19—it serves them right—but I care very deeply indeed that they are infecting other innocent people, such as their more elderly relatives, their friends and their workmates.
For many years, we have seen oriental tourists in London warning masks. It is nothing to do with Covid-19, but out of courtesy because they have a cold and do not want to infect others. I commend that oriental courtesy and culture. It is high time everyone in this country did the same every time they are outdoors or in public places with no exemptions, except for a few medical exemptions, and no excuses. Report them instantly and hit them hard with penalties when they do not comply.
Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I shall address issues of messaging and compliance, which are key areas of concern in any public health intervention. They are not effectively addressed in the documents before us today and cause confusion, as stated by my noble friend Lady Thornton. I realise that coronavirus is a complex infection, but intervention measures must not be complex, otherwise they will not be understood and complied with.
In the UK, we have had many public health campaigns which have been highly successful, such as the HIV/AIDS campaign many years ago, when the Lord Speaker was Secretary of State for Health and insisted that messages should be timely, accurate, straightforward and targeted not only at the general population but at those considered to be most at risk. The teenage pregnancy strategy targeted at-risk groups with information, but also worked in communities and with local teachers and health workers on board.
How does this relate to face coverings? First, the messages being given out are too complex. Many people are confused or do not think that the warnings are applicable to them. People must trust the messages and those delivering them in order to co-operate. Local involvement in messaging and action is essential. I have seen the advantages of the wearing of face coverings expressed in simple diagrams which show how rates of infection are highly affected if two people in proximity wear a mask. I have not seen this simple diagram or simple information about why we should wear face coverings displayed in public places anywhere. It is all about warnings, with too little information and encouragement.
How are the Government targeting younger people? Are there messages on social media? Are students, for example, receiving approaches which are young people friendly? Can the Minister clarify what the recommendations are for schools and whether they are likely to change? I am aware that the World Health Organization has recommended that pupils above the age of 12 should wear masks, but the Government seem happy that other restrictions are satisfactory. Is that still the case?
I now have a question about public transport. How can repeat offending be identified? I hear announcements on trains saying that masks are compulsory until passengers leave the station, yet I have now consistently seen at least half the staff on a station not wearing a face covering. What kind of example is that? Yesterday, on leaving Victoria station, I encountered a tourist group of around a dozen people aged between 20 and 30 without face coverings, mingling without any distancing. As I said earlier, messages have to be simple, consistent and believed. Why are messages not getting through? If penalties are to be a deterrent, how will this be made more effective?
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]
[Inaudible] the regulations and amendments that the Minister has moved, together with the clarity they bring. However, in future we should seek to ensure that regulations swiftly follow any announcement. My family tell me that too often they see young people, particularly young men, not wearing masks when required. This selfish behaviour puts others at risk. With the rise in the number of cases of coronavirus infection, compliance with the regulations is essential. I ask the Minister what more can be done to educate people and encourage them to wear face masks.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of these statutory instruments. Undoubtedly, face masks or coverings are an important defence mechanism in our joint fight against Covid-19. However, I agree with the amendment to the Motion tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the views of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee that the legislation needs to follow more closely any announcement that has been made. This is viewed as an obstacle to parliamentary scrutiny. In this debate and the previous debate, many noble Lords articulated the view that we are affirming and approving regulations well after the time that they have been implemented. In my view, that is not good for parliamentary democracy.
I have several questions to pose to the Minister. If he is not able to answer today, perhaps he will do so in writing. Will he specify how the machinery of government will ensure that the process of scrutiny can be enabled more quickly and that announcements will be made in a more timely manner after the legislation has been enacted, recognising and acknowledging the fact that we are in different, challenging times? Undoubtedly, the three approaches of social distancing, hand washing and face coverings are still sound advice, but they have to be accompanied by a very sound track-and-trace system. Will the Minister highlight how robust, resilient and adequate the current system is, and whether any assistance is being obtained from other countries in this operation?
However, people will be satisfied, content and happy about going out only when there is a vaccine for Covid. What progress has been made in ensuring, first, that the flu vaccine will be made more widely available this autumn via the NHS? What progress has been made on developing global vaccines? What is the estimated time for their ability? According to the World Health Organization:
“172 countries and multiple candidate vaccines engaged in Covid-19 vaccine Global Access Facility.”
What is the up-to-date position, and when is it likely that such a vaccine will be available in the UK? What will be its method of distribution throughout Britain and the devolved regions?
Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con) [V]
My Lords, as previously acknowledged by my noble friend Lady Noakes, there is not yet definitive evidence of the efficacy of face masks. But if wearing them potentially helps protect others from the virus, that is something we should all want to do. However, we should not ignore the fact that mandating their use is a controversial policy, which at worst compromises individual liberty and at best is a considerable inconvenience which could discourage some people from going about their normal business, be that travelling on public transport, attending church or simply getting back to the shops. On that basis, will the Minister say whether any consideration has been given to when the Government might lift the mandatory wearing of face coverings in certain circumstances? For instance, will it be based on the Covid alert level reducing? If so, will they announce any change so that the wearing of face masks does not end up becoming a social norm by default?
Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I very much support the amendment to the Motion in the name of my noble friend Lady Thornton. I agree with many of the comments that have been made; I pick out my noble friend Lady Massey, who said a lot of things with which I agree.
We must avoid inconsistency. If there is inconsistency in applying advice, guidance and compulsion in the use of face masks then the public will not support it. It is essential that the public understand what is going on. In my experience, I have seen members of the public being pretty good about going into shops, and I understand that on public transport they are not bad, but there are lapses.
I have a number of questions. Why do employees, particularly in shops, not have to wear face masks? It is a signal to customers if the staff in shops are wearing masks, and in a way it encourages sloppiness if they are not wearing them while we have to.
The public need to understand what the benefits are. Are the benefits for the wearer or for the person they are talking to? I wonder whether I should have a T-shirt made that has on the front, “My mask protects you”, and on the back, “Your mask protects me”. Does the Minister agree that that reflects the policy?
Should we not make masks compulsory outdoors, certainly in cities? I believe that is the case in parts of France and parts of Spain. Walking along a shopping street before even going into a shop, one comes into contact with many people. Why not make masks compulsory in shopping centres, where we would protect people going shopping? I understand that the practice varies from one country to another and that is why there is uncertainty.
I asked a question about police powers in the earlier debate, but I do not think the Minister answered it. What are the police powers in this? If they see people walking into shops, is it the shopkeeper or the shop staff who should say, “Get out unless you have a mask on”, or should the police be invoked into doing that? A similar question applies on public transport.
My main plea is the one that I started with: there must be consistency and there must be understanding on the part of the public. That way, we can make the policy work.
Lord Robathan (Con) [V]
My Lords, since the beginning of this crisis we have been exhorted to save lives, a slogan that we all understand and we all support. Not far from where I am sitting, Oadby and Wigston Borough was put back today under restrictions, while there has been a lockdown again in Leicester itself, which is next door. Leicester is a serious area for Covid. However, the last death from coronavirus in a Leicester hospital took place on 31 August. Could the Minister please explain that evidence?
It is not infections as such that matter, although they are of course relevant and important, but hospitalisation and death. Could the Minister now answer the question that I asked last week: how many people under the age of 65, without underlying health conditions such as diabetes, have died in the last six months? I believe that some 6,000 people under the age of 65 have died, but how many were actually healthy? Remember that 11,000 people die every week in this country.
On face masks, as my noble friend Lady Noakes, whom I support, mentioned, the WHO said until 6 June that there was “no evidence” that healthy people should wear masks. On 4 March Chris Whitty said that
“our advice is clear: that wearing a mask if you don’t have an infection reduces the risk almost not at all. So we do not advise that.”
On 28 April, Matt Hancock said that the evidence was “weak”. On 15 June he decided to make masks compulsory on public transport and on 24 July compulsory in shops, yet on 28 August the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Jenny Harries, said:
“The evidence on face coverings is not very strong in either direction.”
On 14 September face coverings were made mandatory in indoor public places in Wales but they had not been for the previous seven weeks as they had been in England. Even SAGE said that
“there is a small benefit but it’s based on very weak evidence.”
Indeed, back in the spring we were told that face masks could actually increase the amount of virus that an infected person inhaled and therefore might be dangerous. I think we can all agree that this has been confusing.
In this public health crisis, we need courageous political leadership. Self-evidently, the scientists do not agree, so we cannot follow the science. We can only follow the evidence of serious harm and death. What evidence is there that face coverings are saving lives? My own view is that many of those who died earlier in this epidemic were likely to have died anyway and that, while it is tragic, they were the most vulnerable. It is contradictory to say, “Go back to work and take the Underground but be afraid, be very afraid and wear a face mask”. This policy is confused, contradictory and not based on any clear evidence.
I took advice on dividing the House on this measure but these rather ridiculous non-debates make it difficult. It would have been somewhat self-indulgent. I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, may do so but, like my noble friend Lady Noakes, I cannot support something that says I support the measures. We need clear, courageous leadership based on strong evidence to get us out of this crisis. I fear that we have yet to see a clarity of policy on coronavirus.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, regarding the Coronavirus Act passed in March, the Joint Committee on Human Rights made the following statement about the powers the Government assumed for themselves under that Act:
“Such extreme measures can only be considered lawful, justified, necessary and proportionate if (1) the threat from disease and death remains sufficiently significant to justify such extraordinary measures; (2) the measures only interfere with human rights and civil liberties to the extent necessary; (3) the measures are enforced in a clear, reasonable and balanced manner; (4) enforcement is authorised, and does not go beyond what is prohibited, by law.”
We can all agree on the first point. There is a very real threat from this virus but, six months on from the passing of that Act, we have to question the Government on the three other aspects pointed out by the Joint Committee.
On the previous set of regulations we debated this morning, the Minister said, “We now understand the nature of transmission of the virus”. If that is so, when will he publish the evidence that lies behind that statement? While the Government may understand it, individuals do not. I come from the standpoint that most people in this country want to do the right thing to protect themselves, their families, other people and their businesses, and they are genuinely confused about what to do.
Having looked at these regulations, with all the exemptions in them I do not think it would have been possible to make it much more difficult for anybody trying to enforce them if you tried. Therefore, given that we are now way behind on scrutiny as it should have been done, we are at a point where we can ask what their effect has been in practice. How many fixed penalty notices have been issued under these regulations? Who are the main recipients of FPNs, and in what areas? What information do the Government have about compliance rates in different types of venue, such as places of worship versus clinics or pubs? It is important that we get that information to inform the next set of regulations, which will inevitably follow from these.
How many court proceedings have been initiated under these regs? Again, what are the characteristics of the people who are being taken to court? How many fixed penalty notices have been given because of a failure to wear a mask on public transport? I too sat on a Tube train yesterday with two people not wearing masks. Everybody’s response was typically British; we did nothing but read the paper. The people may well have had a good reason and an exemption—I have no idea—but nobody there knew.
I want to come on to the key issue of communication. The Government have been communicating in difficult circumstances, but overall I think their communication has been extremely poor. The new regulations for the north-east came into force last night, but they were still not up on the government website this morning. They are on legislation.gov.uk—but individuals, people running businesses and local authorities would not know what they were supposed to be doing and how they were supposed to comply. Leeds asked for a limited restriction for a particular purpose, because it could see a reason for it, but that was turned down by central government for no good reason.
The Government have spent an awful lot of money; they have spent £840,000 with one company run by close associates of Dominic Cummings and Michael Gove. I have to ask on what basis its work will be evaluated, because the Government’s communication has been confused and inconsistent. If you compare it with some of the international comparators, such as Italy—not a nation generally known for a compliance with the law—it has had very clear messaging, and rates of compliance are very high.
The rule of six is a nonsense, and I think that people have worked out for themselves that it is arbitrary nonsense. Six individuals from different households meeting up every day, and six other individuals the next day—there is no way in which it makes sense, particularly in the absence of effective and timely test and trace data.
Earlier this week, on an Urgent Question, my noble friend Lord Scriven as asked why the Local Government Association did not receive local lockdown plans notice until one hour before the announcement. The Minister’s response was telling; he said
“it must have been the last one on the list”.—[Official Report, 14/9/20; col. 1000.]
That has been the fundamental problem all the way through: central Government think that they and their mates know better than the people who work in local government or the local public service agencies who are going to have to implement this.
I suggest to the Minister that, if he cannot answer my specific questions now, on this occasion can he write to me? We have to stop more daft ideas such as Covid marshals and come up with a coherent plan to work with local government in ways outlined by my noble friend Lord Greaves. This legislation is going to be reviewed, and it needs to be reviewed on the basis of evidence, not wishful thinking by government.
Lord Bethell (Con) [V]
My Lords, I thank all those involved in this debate for a really important contribution. This face-coverings debate is always a very tough one. It is tough because in many of our areas of response to Covid we have really clear evidence-based decision making. In the area of lockdowns, we have a huge amount of information from the ONS, REACT and our test and trace system. With the clinical trials of our therapeutics, we have incredible data from patients and from recovery. We have a numbers-driven approach to a lot of the response on Covid, but in this area of masks—there is no two ways about it—it is heavily contested. The proof points on whether masks make a difference are not proven. Different groups have different perspectives. Therefore, we are left to rely on principles of common sense, taste and preference, and those are not the principles on which we can run an effective epidemiological response to this horrible disease.
Our epidemiological response has two levels. The first and by far the most important level is reliance on hygiene and social distancing—the “Hands, Face, Space” protocol. That is the one that will beat the virus and it is the one advocated by the CMO, and the CMOs from all the nations of Britain, and it is our primary front in our battle against Covid. The second tier is test, trace and isolate, which is effective and important for surveillance, and is proving to be impactful in breaking the chain of transmission.
Turning to face coverings, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. Like my noble friend Lord Blencathra, I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. He has provided evidence-based commentary and been an advocate, in very reasonable terms, for the wearing of face coverings and we are grateful for his characteristically energetic contributions. I hope to answer his specific questions in turn.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, put it well. We cannot lean on clinical trials and scientific modelling to provide clear-cut solutions on this one. Where does that leave us? Since 11 May, we have brought in a proportionate and evolving strategy on masks. It has been brought in in a way which does not compete with social distancing and hygiene as the Government’s priorities. The messages we have put forward on face coverings are designed so that they do not confuse the public about their importance. My noble friend Lady Sanderson put it really well. We cannot give the public the idea that wearing a mask is in any way a defence against the disease or an effective substitute for social distancing. If we did that, we would be blowing up our first line of defence.
Turning to noble Lords’ questions, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, made a strong point about valves. These are typically used in medical PPE, where they are highly regulated, but he has observed, as I have, their clumsy use in retail face coverings. Any face covering that fails to stop the transmission of droplets is not achieving its basic objective and would therefore be in breach of our guidelines, which are clear. We will look into whether further communication is needed on this point.
Many noble Lords, including my noble friend Lady Hooper asked about compliance. As my noble friend Lord Hayward, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and others have stated convincingly, the ONS statistics on compliance do not completely align with one’s personal experience. We therefore took the decision to strengthen the penalty system for face-covering regulations to discourage non-compliance, in particular for repeat offenders. The laddering of fines which was brought into force on 28 August has coincided with a massive increase in the public’s use of face masks, or at least that is my perception.
As several noble Lords have rightly argued, it is important that people who are exempt are not accosted or abused in any way. I welcome the appeals made in this Chamber for “No mask” badges for those who are exempt. I celebrate the fact that a design for such a badge is published on GOV.UK.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, have accused the Government of mixed messages. We have worked hard to communicate well on this, but we are competing with our principal messages of social distancing and good hand hygiene. For that reason, we have not put the marketing and messaging about face masks at the top of our messages.
A number of noble Lords asked about recent research. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is entirely right. In August, the WHO updated its guidance on,
“specific considerations for the use of non-medical masks, also known as fabric masks, by children as a means for source control in the context of the current … pandemic.”
It also advises on the use of medical masks for children under certain conditions. We are seeking to follow that guidance.
In August, SAGE SPI-B reviewed evidence which suggested that mandating face coverings was one of the key behaviours to help deliver Covid-safe large events in large venues. This is in conjunction with other behaviours, including regular handwashing and social distancing.
Other research has been published by the Health and Safety Executive for the benefit of employers. This includes research on the effectiveness of surgical masks against a range of airborne particles and older research to help inform greater compliance with wearing face masks. Further research is being funded by UKRI about the effectiveness of face coverings and face masks and the factors underpinning compliant behaviour with face-covering regulations. Emerging findings are published on the UKRI Coronavirus Hub. I encourage all those with an interest in the area to keep track of that source of evidence.
In September, SAGE reviewed evidence which suggested mitigation of the risk of transmission of the virus in higher education settings through measures including face coverings. This is particularly in educational settings and areas of universities where social distancing may be more difficult.
In response to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, about testing, let me clear that we are by no means at the end of our ramping-up of testing. His testimony about his experiences in Pendle is powerful, and I would be glad to meet the noble Lord to discuss them.
My noble friend Lady Hooper raised an important point about ensuring that guidance for face coverings is clear and communicated to all. I reassure her that we will publish accessible guidance, including in other languages, which will cover how, when and where to wear them safely.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, asked specifically about the use of face coverings in schools. The Department for Education has updated its guidance on wearing face coverings in schools following both the WHO and SAGE statements on children. The Government’s priority is to get children back to schools and colleges safely.
The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, asked about a potential Covid-19 vaccine and when it might be possible. I reassure her that the department, along with NHSI and PHE, is currently planning for the delivery of any successful vaccine candidate.
We keep the area of face coverings under close review. The public mood on this has shifted considerably. We are aware of a more nuanced understanding about the use of face coverings by many in the public. We will revisit this subject regularly. This has been an informative and powerful debate. I hope therefore that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, feels able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
I thank the Minister. I want to pick up on the previous debate, when the Minister was concerned to assure the House that the Government listen carefully and take account of these debates. This discussion—and that which has gone on for many months about face masks—is probably one of the very few times when we can say, particularly if I might pay credit to my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, that we possibly have influenced government policy. I hope that the Minister will take on board, as he said he would, the remarks of my noble friend about the types of face mask, because he is definitely an expert in these matters.
I wish this were true of all the other issues. The discussion about face masks began very early in this pandemic, in late April and early May. The statutory instrument that we are discussing today was laid in July. There seems to be no reason why we could not have taken it through the normal parliamentary process in that time and not be playing catch-up two months later. That is the reason for my amendment.
As someone who travels on public transport almost every day, I recognise that there are clear problems, as the Minister and many other noble Lords have said. We need a major public information campaign about the wearing of masks. I have seen no enforcement whatever. On saying that ONS data shows huge compliance, as the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, said, it depends when you look. On my tube this morning, there were two young men—one sitting opposite me—neither of them wearing a mask. I offered them masks, because I carry spares—I confess that I have become a bit of a mask monitor. I said, “You haven’t got your mask on. Would you like one?” One of them took a mask out of his pocket and immediately put it on. The other got off the train. I completely agree with the Minister that you have to be careful, because there are people who cannot wear masks. One way of getting around that is just to offer one to somebody who does not have one and see what happens.
It is also my observation that those not wearing their masks on the Tube are, mostly, blokes. They also do not pull them over their noses, which makes them almost completely redundant. An educational programme, and possibly the pictures on the Tube, should show that you must put your mask over your nose. This is important because, as children have gone back to school and people are returning to work, social distancing has become almost impossible on the Tube and on buses—wearing a mask is therefore much more important.
I wonder if it might be an idea for all Ministers, their advisers and special advisers to travel on public transport for a week. Perhaps then they might understand the challenge and realise that people will increasingly feel unsafe unless masks are worn regularly and there is compliance.
The Minister mentioned the exemption card template, which I think is an extremely good idea. I hope that the Government will put some resource into making sure that that happens as often as it can.
Although enforcement is a matter for the police and specified officials, the government guidance says that:
“Businesses should take reasonable steps to encourage customer compliance”.
Can the Minister explain to me in writing—since he cannot come back to me; it is not often that I get the last word, but I do today—what that means in practice?
Many people find mask wearing uncomfortable, but they are complying. The Government need to recognise that this shows that the vast majority of people in the country really are willing to do almost anything to try to deal with this pandemic. Wearing masks will be with us for a long time to come, I think. We need to recognise that this is an important part of ensuring safety for all of us and our families.
I thank noble Lords for their support for my amendment, particularly my noble friends Lord Dubs, Lord Rooker, Lady Massey and Lord Campbell-Savours, and others. My amendment to the Motion was put down as a sentiment of frustration over the way these statutory instruments are being handled. That frustration has been well expressed by noble Lords. I hope that the Minister has heard it, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.