Lord Thomas of Gresford
Perhaps it could be used as a criminal law concept. Perhaps the lawyers would like to think about it. I follow what the noble and learned Lord says on that.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, this amendment would introduce a time bar on bringing prosecutions against members of the Armed Forces, shielding them from prosecution for their actions while engaged in military operations outside the United Kingdom. The time bar would apply to their acts where more than 20 years had passed since those acts took place.
It is important to be clear, as noble Lords have observed, that the amendment would prevent personnel being prosecuted under either the service justice system or the civilian criminal justice system. It would cover all offences, not only against civilians or prisoners of war but against members of our own Armed Forces; for example, if evidence eventually came to light that a soldier had murdered another soldier while on operations, there could not be a trial if more than 20 years had passed.
I have much sympathy with the reasons that I know underlie the amendment. If criminal allegations are raised many years after the events in question, witnesses may be dead, memories may have faded and documentary evidence may have been lost. Indeed, those difficulties can be encountered even after a few years, never mind many years. However, I was grateful for the comments of the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the two noble and learned Lords, among others. Members of our Armed Forces engaged in military operations must be subject to the rule of law and I cannot support a blanket ban on prosecutions of members of the Armed Forces after a stated period.
As the Committee is aware, the Armed Forces Act 2006 contains a system of service law that applies to members of the Armed Forces wherever in the world they are operating. This makes provision that a member of the Armed Forces commits a service offence if he or she commits any act overseas which would be an offence under the law of England and Wales were it done here. I am afraid I cannot see on what principle we should make an exception from the criminal law for those in military service overseas.
It is worth emphasising that, in both the civilian and service justice systems, when considering any case prosecutors are required to consider not only whether there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction but whether a prosecution is in the public interest. It has never been the rule that a prosecution will automatically take place once the evidential stage is met. Similarly, in the service system prosecutors are required to consider whether a prosecution is also in the service interest, including service interest factors. Clearly, if the offence is more serious, the public interest for a prosecution is more compelling.
It should also be noted that before a former member of the Armed Forces can be prosecuted for a criminal conduct service offence in respect of things that they did during their service, the consent of the Attorney-General must be obtained if more than six months have passed since they left the Armed Forces.
I am of course aware of the concerns expressed by the noble and gallant Lord over investigations by the service police of events in Iraq many years after those alleged events. In many of these cases, the allegations were not made immediately—for reasons which are not always clear. I assure the noble and gallant Lord, and the Committee, that intensive efforts are being made to bring these investigations to a conclusion as soon as possible. We are investing considerable resources in this area. We are looking at streamlined processes to ensure that those cases without substance are weeded out quickly, and so on. The Iraq Historic Allegations Team is doing an excellent job given the difficulties it faces. It has completed a number of investigations.
I do not believe for a moment that this process will still be in progress when the 20-year limit envisaged by the new clause would be reached. Indeed, the only theatre in which, so far as I am aware, criminal investigations or prosecutions of soldiers or veterans are in progress relating to events from more than 20 years ago is Northern Ireland, which is excluded from the scope of this clause because it covers only operations outside the UK.
I also assure the Committee that, while the Ministry of Defence will discharge its duty to provide any information in its possession relevant to such police investigations, it will also provide effective support, legal and pastoral, to veterans who may find themselves facing investigation for matters related to their duties. Although, I repeat, I sympathise with the concerns behind the new clause, in principle it would be wrong to provide an exception to the criminal law for members of the Armed Forces serving overseas in this way. On that basis, I hope that the noble and gallant Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Empey (UUP)
The noble Earl referred there to hoping that investigations would be brought to a speedy conclusion. Could he confirm that the Iraq investigation team will continue its operations until at least 2019? Also, on Northern Ireland, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, pointed out that some 40 years or more after the event a team of 30 detectives has been operating for the last three years doing nothing but pursuing these particular individuals, whereas the people who were the primary perpetrators of violence were away in the smoke many years ago.
Lord Tunnicliffe
The noble Earl seemed to say something fairly profound there about support for service personnel who may come under investigation in the Iraq cases et cetera, and about legal and historic pastoral support. Could he flesh that out, particularly the extent of legal support that he sees being provided? I recognise that might require a somewhat delicate answer so a written response could be more appropriate.
Earl Howe
I shall be happy to write to the noble Lord with further and better particulars on that issue. I add to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that the aim of the Iraq Historic Allegations Team is to try to compete the majority of its investigations by the end of 2017. The team believes that that is within its grasp, although it may slip. I hope that is helpful as an indication of the timescale to which it is working.
Lord Tunnicliffe
Following the precedent of other Bills, when the Minister writes to me could he copy in any other noble Lord who has participated in the debate?
Lord Craig of Radley
My Lords, first, I thank all those who have spoken in this short debate. I made it very clear that my amendment was meant to be no more than a probing one, and I certainly did not expect the Minister to accept it as it was written or even close to what was written. But I am particularly grateful for the support that I have had for the thought behind what I was trying to get at, and I hope that the Ministry of Defence and the rest of the Government will continue to give this very close attention and not just park it as too difficult to deal with. It really does need to be dealt with. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Touhig (Lab)
My Lords, we all agree that having a healthy meal and good food inside us is important for increased productivity and performance. Not for nothing did Napoleon say that an army marches on its stomach. In the Armed Forces, being able to perform at your best is paramount to the role of those we ask to serve our country. Labour introduced the pay-as-you-dine scheme for the Armed Forces in 2006. I cannot remember whether I started it as a Minister, but I was certainly around as they were planning it. As noble Lords will know, I left the ministry soon after that, but that is nothing to do with this piece of legislation.
If required, service men and women who are single and live in service accommodation pay for their own meals when not on active duty, meaning that they would pay only for the meals they actually eat. Under the pay-as-you-dine system, they are responsible for their own meals and making healthy choices, which the Ministry of Defence encourages.
There have been many concerns about the scheme. Some report that it disadvantages the lowest paid in the Armed Forces, as they often run out of money to pay for their food at the end of the month. Others are concerned that individuals may not be following a healthy diet as a result of choosing and cooking their own food, and some, as is highlighted in the noble Earl’s amendment, are concerned that pay as you dine leads to a decline in camaraderie, as personnel of all ranks are not all eating together any more and are instead eating alone or in small groups. I do not want to say more about these concerns at this stage, although I recognise they are perfectly legitimate and should be addressed.
I suggest to the noble Earl that if he is not successful in persuading the Minister of the merits of his amendment, he should press for the information he is seeking to be included in the Armed Forces Covenant Annual Report. That comes out every year. We would then not need primary legislation. It would mean it would be reported every year, people would see it, it would raise the profile of the issue and some of the noble Earl’s concerns could then be better addressed. The Armed Forces covenant is our obligation to the military, and it is likely that this issue will get greater attention if we were to do it that way.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I welcome the initiative of my noble friend in reminding us that the health and well-being of our Armed Forces are especially important. Pay as you dine was adopted by the Armed Forces in 2005, as the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, mentioned. It replaced the deduction of food costs taken directly from pay at source, regardless of whether meals were taken or not.
At the moment, catering is provided for under the catering, retail and leisure contracts. Our industry partners are required to provide a core meal at each meal service of the day. Food is charged at cost, and contractors do not make a profit on the food they provide. Core meals served at breakfast, lunch and dinner provide a nutritious and balanced menu cycle. Throughout the day, when taken at each meal service, core meals provide 3,300 calories per day at a daily price of £4.79. A range of alternative meal choices is also available outside the core meal price.
We believe it is important to give service personnel the choice about how and where they spend their money with regard to food. We fully recognise that sometimes service personnel like to take their meals in a different environment, to visit their local shops to choose what they want to eat and even to cook their own meal. We have no reason to believe that this has a detrimental effect on unit cohesion, although I would not seek to belittle that as an important issue.
However, we recognise that some service personnel are not good at choosing a healthy diet, whether they are living in single living accommodation or not. This is, of course, not a problem that affects just the Armed Forces—it is a reflection of wider society and there is much concern about unhealthy lifestyles generally—but we aspire to bring about change and we acknowledge the need for members of the Armed Forces to be better informed.
We are therefore working in partnership with Public Health England to produce some lifestyle guidance for service personnel. In parallel, the services are developing a new programme to educate personnel in healthy lifestyle choices, including diet and nutrition, and encourage a change in their behaviours. Dieticians, general practitioners, physical development experts and public health consultants are among those who have contributed to this work. I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, on ration packs.
I thank my noble friend for his interest in the pay as you dine system, but I do not believe his amendment is necessary. However, there is no sense of complacency here. Various assurance activities related to the system take place, including contract monitoring, site visits, reviews, customer engagement and assurance by single-service catering subject-matter experts to evaluate and improve the service provided. I hope that, with that measure of reassurance, my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment, but naturally, if he feels that there is any more information I can provide him with, I shall be happy to do so.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate. The thing that slightly worries me is that the Minister did not offer to give us any information from any reviews. He said that reviews had taken place, and presumably those review reports could be obtained under FoI, so there does not seem to be any good reason why we should not see a copy of the relevant review, just to see how it is going. Maybe the Minister would like to reflect on that to see whether there is something.
Earl Attlee
I thank the Minister for that undertaking. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, tempted me to table a suitable amendment relating to the Armed Forces covenant and the requirement to produce reports. My ration of unhelpful amendments is strictly limited, so I do not think I will be doing that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I very much welcome the interest of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, in this issue, and his reminding us that the welfare of those who join the Armed Forces under the age of 18 is especially important. I begin by assuring noble Lords that we take our duty of care for entrants aged under 18 extremely seriously. Close attention has been given to this subject in recent years, especially after the tragic deaths at Deepcut. We have robust, effective and independently verified safeguards in place to ensure that under-18s are cared for properly.
I should perhaps make it clear at the outset that all service personnel have, since 2011, a statutory right to claim discharge up to their 18th birthday. The right of discharge is made clear to all service personnel on joining the Armed Forces. I will say something more about that shortly. Before I do, I need to say to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that I do not share the negative slant that he sought to cast on the enlistment of minors. We are very clear in our belief that junior entry offers a range of benefits to the individual, to the Armed Forces and to society, providing a highly valuable, vocational training opportunity for those wishing to follow a career in the Armed Forces.
The noble Lord mentioned educational attainment. The provision of education and training for 16 year-old school leavers provides a route into the Armed Forces that complies with government education policy, while also providing a significant foundation for emotional, physical and educational development throughout an individual’s career.
There is no compulsory recruitment into the Armed Forces. Our recruiting policy is absolutely clear: no one under the age of 18 can join the Armed Forces without formal parental consent, which is checked twice during the application process. In addition, parents and guardians are positively encouraged to be engaged with the recruiting staff during the process. We also recognise that not all those recruited find that they are suited to life in the Armed Forces. In 2011, the Armed Forces terms of service regulations were amended to provide all service personnel under the age of 18 with the right to claim discharge up to their 18th birthday.
I wish to allay any concern that discharge as of right is ineffective. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the ways in which discharge is facilitated. The Army recruits the majority of under-18s. I assure the Committee that every junior soldier arriving at the Army Foundation College in Harrogate is briefed by the permanent staff on their rights to discharge. Junior soldiers sign and retain the personal terms of service record of briefing and understanding, and the college retains a copy. The brief and document clearly set out the right to discharge and the process to be followed. During the reception day, the junior soldiers’ company commander briefs all parents and guardians in attendance on the processes involved in discharging junior soldiers, who have ample opportunity to seek advice on discharge outside their training team from the extensive welfare staff network and from fellow junior soldiers—particularly those in the senior intake.
Regardless of whether they are still in training, the regulations provide that for the first six months of service a person may claim discharge by giving not less than 14 days’ notice in writing to their commanding officer after an initial period of 28 days’ service. At any other time after six months’ service, those under the age of 18 who wish to leave must give notice in writing to their commanding officer who must then discharge the under-18 within the next three months. For those who give notice just prior to their 18th birthday, this means that the latest they will be discharged is at 18 years and three months of age. Those three months represent a cooling-off period, to avoid the unintended consequence of a decision made in the heat of the moment—say after just having failed a test or while feeling homesick.
A shorter period may well be agreed with the commanding officer, but three months provides the under-18 with a period of due reflection and the right to rescind their request for discharge. This process ensures that individuals under the age of 18 have an appropriate period of time to consider their decision to leave, and offers flexibility depending on individual circumstances. Voluntary discharge accounts for approximately 65% of those who do not complete the course at the Army Foundation College. I can also say that the college has routinely discharged those who are unhappy but may no longer claim discharge as of right, because clearly it is not in the Army’s interest to retain those who feel that way.
I also wish to say something about those who leave early. Indeed, I quote from one of Ofsted’s reports, which says:
“Early leavers receive very good additional support in developing job search skills, writing CVs and researching further education opportunities … families are kept well informed at all stages of the process, and appropriate help is sought to look after children”.
On those who choose to stay, all recruits aged under 18 receive key skills education in literacy and numeracy, should they need it, and all are enrolled onto apprenticeships. The Armed Forces remain the UK’s largest apprenticeship provider, equipping young people with valuable and transferable skills for life, based on structured training and achievement. Over 95% of all recruits, no matter what their age or prior qualifications, enrol in an apprenticeship each year.
The Armed Forces offer courses in a wide range of skills, such as engineering, information and communications technologies, construction, driving and animal care. Ofsted regularly inspects our care of newly-joined young recruits, and we are very proud of the standards we achieve. We welcome this specialist confirmation that we treat our young recruits well.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The protection and welfare of our young people, as is required by Article 3, are important. The Armed Forces are careful to ensure that appropriate mechanisms are in place to comply with the law and to afford special consideration of the needs of under-18s. This extends to the service justice system, where appropriate.
What does that amount to in practice? Commanding officers are provided with guidance on the care of service personnel under the age of 18. Guidance covers supervisory arrangements, risk assessments, welfare and mentoring, and contact with parents and guardians. It also covers such things as prohibiting the sale of alcohol and tobacco, the requirement to provide an appropriate adult for those who are arrested and, of course, the right to discharge. I should also remind the Committee that service personnel under the age of 18 are not deployed on any operation outside of UK, except where the operation does not involve personnel becoming engaged in, or exposed to, hostilities.
During the Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill, the Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Nick Carter, described the recruitment of young people as “incredibly positive”. I take pride in the fact that our Armed Forces provide challenging and constructive education, training and employment opportunities for young people while in service. I suggest that this is the right end of the telescope through which to look.
The Armed Forces Covenant Annual Report is about the effects of service on service people. Those under the age of 18 are well within the definition of service people, but this amendment would require the Secretary of State to give particular consideration, every year, to the effects of service on those under 18 years of age. It would also require him to have particular regard to those effects right through until the individuals become veterans. It obliges us to treat those who joined under the age of 18 as a separate category throughout their service and perhaps throughout their lives. I am not persuaded that this would be right or appropriate. It is perhaps relevant to mention that in July 2015, the High Court dismissed a judicial review brought by Child Soldiers International—CSI—alleging that the enlistment of Army recruits aged 16 to 18 was in conflict with the equal treatment directive.
I do not believe that this is an appropriate distinction to build into legislation, but I nevertheless hope that my remarks have been reassuring to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, in so far as he can be reassured on this topic. I am happy to circulate the letter that I sent him if it has not already been circulated. I am glad it was helpful to him. On that basis, I hope the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his characteristically full and sensitive reply. I shall just say that there are at least two letters, not just one, that should be available.
Let us be very clear about this: I made it plain in my introductory remarks that I am open-minded on this issue. I can see advantages and I can see social advantages. It is very easy for people in caring, comfortable, middle-class life to be worried about others and to raise issues that concern them, but when you look at the harsh realities of life for some of those who are recruited, it perhaps brings a different perspective to the situation because what are the alternatives? They are gangs, drugs and goodness knows what. We must be realistic about this.
My concern is that we have the highest standards and that these are all the time transparent. I cannot for the life of me see why it would not therefore be very sensible to have an arrangement in the Bill which enables this scrutiny to take place. We in Parliament have special responsibilities as custodians of these children. It therefore seems very important indeed that this issue should be openly discussed and evaluated.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, I will be brief. This debate is very important and shows that there has been a degree of overlap between inquests into the death of an individual and inquiries into perhaps wider problems that have arisen in conflict.
I spent 27 years working in newspapers and publishing before entering the House of Commons. I know only too well from my time as a young journalist covering inquests how important they were to a grieving family who had sometimes lost a loved one in the most tragic circumstances. With that experience of observing, I am not sure that inquests brought closure to a family coming to terms with a sudden and unexpected death but I have no doubt that they contributed to a sense of healing and understanding that the family was desperate for—an understanding of what happened and why some tragic death occurred to a son, daughter, husband or wife.
To no other group is that more important than to service families. A service family worries and frets as soon as its loved ones are sent on deployment somewhere in the world to defend Britain’s interests. We all agree that we have a duty of care to those who serve in our Armed Forces but we also have a duty of care to the families of those who serve. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, made clear that this is a probing amendment, really seeking to find out more about the present way in which these things operate. That is important and this is a step in the direction. It is fully supported on this side.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I found this an extremely interesting debate and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, for his proposal and his interest in ensuring that the death of a service person such as described in his amendment, where that tragically occurs, is reported to a coroner quickly for thorough investigation.
I listened with care to the views expressed by my noble friend Lord Attlee and the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, putting the opposite case. Our view is that reporting a death to a coroner is no more than the families of those killed in these circumstances deserve. The first thing I would like to do is reassure the noble Lord that the Ministry of Defence works hard to support coroners in all investigations connected to the Armed Forces. I am very happy to outline the current system, and I hope that I can reassure the noble Lord that that system is working well.
As I am sure the noble Lord will be aware, in the United Kingdom, where the death of anyone—whether subject to service law or not—is believed to have occurred by violent or unnatural means, there are already requirements in relevant legislations in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland for those deaths to be reported to the coroner or equivalent without delay. Naturally, the Ministry of Defence complies fully in the case of Armed Forces deaths, wherever and however these occur.
In England and Wales and in Northern Ireland, where the coroner believes a death to have occurred as a result of violent or unnatural means, the relevant legislation requires him or her to conduct an inquest. In Scotland, the procedure is called a fatal accident inquiry. I should just make clear that an inquest is an independent judicial inquiry conducted in England and Wales by a coroner into the facts surrounding a death that is sudden, unexpected or unnatural. Her Majesty’s coroners have a vital task giving certainty and reassurance to the bereaved and meeting the public interest by determining the facts of death where the circumstances were violent, unnatural or unknown. The Ministry of Defence will provide as much support as the coroner needs, and the Defence Inquest Unit has an important role in offering that support.
In recent years, a number of measures have been introduced to improve the inquest process for bereaved families of service personnel. These have included, in particular, measures to tackle delays in cases coming to inquest, including completion of inquests within six months wherever possible and flexibility to transfer investigations to another coroner. With regard to deaths of those serving overseas, there is a similar requirement, under existing legislation, for the authorities to notify the coroner. Once the deceased has been repatriated to England and Wales, the coronial process runs the same way as a death that occurred here.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, helpfully reminded us of the arrangements that applied in Scotland. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, will, I am sure, be aware that until recently, not all service deaths in Scotland would have been subject to a fatal accident inquiry by the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. However, with effect from 14 January 2016, the introduction in Scotland of the Inquiries into Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths etc. (Scotland) Act 2016 ensures that all unnatural or violent deaths that occur as a result of a person’s duties will be subject to a fatal accident inquiry.
Concerning the scope of a coroner’s inquest, this is determined by the individual coroner on the basis of the evidence available to him or her. Where a coroner considers that the deceased’s right to life was not protected by the state, then the coroner is required to widen the scope of the inquest—or fatal accident inquiry in Scotland—to investigate the broader circumstances of the death. The Ministry of Defence will do everything possible to support the coroner, whatever the scope decided upon.
I hope that I have explained that the legal framework that the noble Lord’s amendment is aimed at achieving is already in place. I listened with care to my noble friend Lord Attlee’s concerns and those of the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, about the utility of inquests into the deaths of those subject to service law. I hope that they will allow me to reflect on what they said and to write to them with my considered observations. I will, of course, copy my letter to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. With those remarks, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, will agree to withdraw his amendment at this stage. Of course, if I can supply him with any further information on this subject, I would be glad to do so.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s response to my amendment. I have a wicked question to ask him, following the point made by the noble Lord, Lord West, about what happens if we start taking large numbers of casualties, especially if the circumstances of each casualty are different. Suppose in 100 days of an operation we take 10 fatalities per day. We are in for 1,000 inquests, and the circumstances of each one are different. Presumably at some point as a conflict escalated from peacekeeping to warfighting and, to put it bluntly, it was not going very well, we would have to suspend the system of inquests. It would be ridiculous—God forbid we could have 5,000 outstanding inquests! We would get to a point where we would have to stop the inquest system. That proves my perverse law that the scrutiny of each casualty is inversely proportionate to the number of casualties we take.
Earl Howe
My noble friend is right that that is a question from left field because I do not think I can answer him substantively today. Clearly, in the circumstances that he outlines the coronial system would be overwhelmed and one would have to consider the best way of arriving at the end point that we would all wish to see, which is that for all those deaths, no matter how many, an explanation is provided to families of how those people died and what lessons were to be learned from that. I do not think I can usefully speculate in these surroundings about what might happen in particular circumstances, but I will reflect on my noble friend’s question, and if I can give him a better reply in the letter that I have undertaken to send to him, I will be happy to do so.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for setting out the rationale for his Amendment 18. However—without, I hope, disappointing him too much—I am not convinced it is necessary to set out in the Armed Forces Bill a statutory requirement for the Defence Council to issue guidance on when a member of the Reserve Forces is on or off duty.
We ask a great deal of our reservists, who, in many cases, attend training and fulfil military duties alongside their full-time civilian employment, as well as committing to deploy on operations when they are required to do so. It is self-evident that in return for this dedication, the MoD needs to make it clear how members of the Reserve Forces will be treated and supported when they are on mobilised service or training, or travelling to and from their reserve centre. Principally, we set this out because reserve service is not risk-free and we need to be able to give reassurance that we will support people properly if they suffer an injury or illness during service.
When is a service man or woman subject to service law? Section 367 of the Armed Forces Act 2006 sets this out:
“Every member of the regular forces is subject to service law at all times”.
The position for reservists is different. Reservists are subject to service law in the following circumstances only: when they are mobilised—called out; when they are in full-time reserve service; when they are undertaking any training or duty; and when they are serving on the permanent staff of a reserve force.
Single service regulations, which are made under the Reserve Forces Act 1996 for each of the reserve forces, already define the circumstances in which a reservist is to be regarded as on duty. As might be expected, this includes during Armed Forces training but it also includes time while they are on MoD premises for the purpose of training, or time spent travelling to and from training or duty for which they are entitled to claim payment. Travel to a mobilisation centre in answer to a call-out order is also regarded as duty. The regulations are principally intended to define the MoD’s liabilities in the event that a reservist sustains an injury at any of these times.
Of course, the actions of a reservist at a time when they are not on duty may none the less be relevant to their service; for example, reserves regulations stipulate that officers may at any time have their commission terminated, be called upon to retire, or be called upon to resign their commission because of misconduct, whether or not that misconduct took place during training or other duties. It is also fully understood by reservists who are present on service premises at times when they are not on duty—for example, those making use of unit gymnasium facilities in their own spare time—that they are to conduct themselves at such times in the same manner as they would were they on duty.
It is worth clarifying that the practice of payment of members of the Reserve Forces for training or other duties in increments of a day’s pay, half a day’s pay or a quarter of a day’s pay is not directly linked to the issue of when during that day the reservist is on duty. Thus a reservist who works an eight-hour day will receive a full day’s pay for it—the same payment as he or she would receive for working for all 24 of the hours in that day. However, that does not mean that the reservist who works an eight-hour day is on duty for all 24 of the hours in that day. It might be considered odd to suggest that they would be. It would be surprising to suggest that a reservist who left their reserve unit at 1600 on a Saturday after completing an eight-hour day and returned to their civilian life—and perhaps their civilian employment—would still be on duty until midnight.
For the reasons I have set out, and given that existing regulations already contain provision for when members of the Reserve Forces are on duty, I hope my noble friend will be reassured and will agree to withdraw his amendment.
I turn now to the amendments which would make provision with respect to members of the Armed Forces who encounter civil emergencies or terrorist attacks. Amendment 19 makes provision with respect to members of the Armed Forces who take it upon themselves as individuals to intervene to help in civil emergencies where they have received no orders to do so. I am sure this is intended to encourage them to intervene in such circumstances. In the case of members of the Reserve Forces, this would include interventions when they were not otherwise on duty. However, it would apply only to reservists who were in uniform and were either on duty, were intending to be on duty that day or had been on duty that day.
I read subsection (3) as intending to allow provision to be made to place service personnel under an obligation to intervene in certain circumstances. Subsection (4) would offer those who intervene indemnities from legal action. Amendment 20 makes similar provision with respect to intervention of members of the Armed Forces during terrorist attacks. This new clause would apply to reservists and members of the regular forces whether or not they were in uniform at the time.
The first point to make is that the criminal law provides protections for members of the public who use force for the purposes of self-defence, defence of another, defence of property, prevention of crime and lawful arrest, although the force used must be reasonable in the circumstances. Thus a member of the Armed Forces, whether in uniform or on duty or not, who intervenes during a civil emergency or a terrorist attack and uses reasonable force for any of the purposes to which I have just referred has a defence to charges under the criminal law.
However, Amendments 19 and 20 suggest that my noble friend is concerned that a person who intervenes in an emergency situation to prevent loss of life, serious injury or serious damage to property may be at risk of being sued in the civil courts. We think it highly unlikely that a person who did what they honestly believed was reasonable and necessary in the circumstances, during a civil emergency or a terrorist attack, to prevent loss of life, serious injury or serious damage to property could be successfully sued in respect of injury or damage caused by them in doing so.
It is not immediately apparent why an off-duty member of the Armed Forces who decides to intervene to help in a civil emergency or a terrorist attack should be in any different position in law from any member of the public who does so. No doubt contrary to my noble friend’s intention, the amendment might in fact make a claim in respect of the actions of a member of the Armed Forces more likely, because those actions would not simply be those of a member of the public in their private capacity but would instead be those of the Armed Forces.
Another concern that I have with these new clauses is whether, if a member of the Armed Forces intervened in a situation and was then deemed to be on duty and perhaps somehow under orders, there could be a risk that they could find themselves not supported but actually challenged by the chain of command as to the usefulness or otherwise of their intervention. While we would not want to deter off-duty members of the Armed Forces from intervening in a personal capacity in an emergency situation, we do not think that it would be appropriate for them to be duty-bound to intervene or to think that they were. Would we want an unarmed, off-duty member of the Armed Forces to think that they were duty-bound to tackle heavily armed terrorists and that they might face disciplinary action should they fail to do so?
We should also not rule out the possibility that their efforts, however well-intentioned, may not necessarily be welcomed by the police or other emergency services. It is long-established that it is only in very exceptional circumstances that members of the Armed Forces should deploy in an official capacity on the streets of the United Kingdom. The civilian emergency services rightly have primacy in such matters.
The notion that individual service personnel may deploy as members of the Armed Forces on official duty not under orders but instead, in effect, on their own say-so would also represent a very significant departure from very long-established practice, under which the use of service personnel is authorised and regulated under orders through a chain of command. I am afraid that it is a departure that the Government cannot support.
I also note that Amendment 20 would purport to allow members of the Armed Forces to use,
“all necessary steps to neutralise”,
an attack. The criminal law allows only the use of such force as is reasonable in the circumstances. This is the standard that applies not only to members of the public generally but also to the police and members of the Armed Forces who are under official orders to tackle armed terrorists. We do not see any basis for departing from this long-established standard.
In short, we do not consider that the proposed amendments are necessary to allow members of the Armed Forces to intervene in the circumstances discussed and we are not convinced that it would be appropriate to put in place the proposed legal rules regarding such intervention. I therefore ask my noble friend not to press his amendments.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed. The Minister gave me exactly the answer I would expect. The first part of his answer was particularly useful so I am grateful to him for that. I am a little surprised by the response of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, because nowhere was I suggesting that there would be any special training. It was basically whether off-duty servicemen should have any top cover from the MoD. I do not see that there would be any extra costs in that. It certainly would not be a new task or mission for the MoD. I am still very grateful for the noble Lord’s response and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, more than 20 years ago, as a parliamentary candidate in Richmond in west London, I addressed a Labour Party women’s group, telling them that as a country we wasted a small fortune on educating girls and women at all. Before they could leap from their seats and warmly shake me by the throat, I went on to say that as a man, I had a family and a career but all too often women were denied this and had to make a choice of having one or the other. We spend a fortune on their education and then put barriers in their way to having a career and a family. For me, that is plain wrong.
Thankfully, as time has passed, more and more opportunities exist for women to enjoy the same lifestyles as men and to have a family and a career, but we are still far from achieving true equality. Where we can take steps to achieve this, we should do so. I therefore welcome the Government’s initial commitment to allowing women to serve in front-line roles in the Armed Forces. This amendment would prevent that and would deny a fit, well-trained, skilled and experienced woman combatant the same career progression as her male counterpart. This will always be a controversial and complex matter, as my noble friend Lord West pointed out, but if we are serious about the equality agenda we cannot deny women the same role that we offer men.
Throughout history womankind has played an exceptional and extraordinary role in our development, almost always against the odds and facing prejudice. Some would argue that in affording women this opportunity we are setting a precedent. Yes, we are—about time, too. I have no doubt that the first human who stood up straight and started walking on two legs was watched by those still on all fours, who tut-tutted and complained that this was setting a precedent. They were proved wrong, and I very much regret to say to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, for whom I have the highest regard and respect, that I believe that his amendment is wrong, too. On Monday in the House we will debate a Motion to take note of the progress made in the United Kingdom in women’s representation and empowerment, 150 years after the 1866 petition to the House of Commons for women’s suffrage. It is about time we caught up—especially in the Armed Forces.
Earl Howe
My Lords, the amendment proposed by my noble friend would have the effect of excluding women from those roles in the Armed Forces, where the primary aim is to,
“close with and then engage or destroy the enemy in close combat”.
As I know my noble friend agrees, women play a vital role in the Armed Forces, with 70% of all posts being open to women. Women have made and continue to make a valuable contribution to current and recent operations, including Afghanistan. They are fundamental to the operational effectiveness of the UK’s Armed Forces, bringing talent and skills across the board.
My noble friend asked whether there was a target for the percentage of the Armed Forces who should be female. The answer is: yes, the Ministry of Defence has a target for recruitment of women into the Armed Forces of 15%. As at 1 October 2015, 10.1% of the Regular Forces were female, and that has remained stable since 1 October 2014. So we have a way to go in this area.
Women already serve in a variety of support roles with front-line units, including as medics, fire support team commanders, military intelligence operators, counter-improvised explosive device operators and dog handlers. Under the Equality Act 2010, the Armed Forces are permitted to exclude women and transsexuals from employment in some areas where it is necessary and appropriate to ensure that the combat effectiveness of the Armed Forces is maintained. However, under the equal treatment directive, the UK Government are obliged to review this exclusion every eight years. To that end, studies were conducted in 2002 and 2010. Women are currently excluded from 30% of posts in the Army, 21% in the Royal Navy and 6% in the Royal Air Force. The units of the Armed Forces that are affected by this are the Royal Marines general service of the Royal Navy, the infantry and the Royal Armoured Corps of the Army, and the Royal Air Force Regiment.
In May 2014, the then Secretary of State for Defence announced a review of the exclusion of women from ground close combat roles. The review was led by the Army and it was completed that year. The review achieved a considerably better understanding of the physiological considerations than existed previously, due to significant improvements in the accuracy of data available and the fact that the military female cohort is both larger and more representative than that available to previous studies.
While defence welcomes the prospect of opening further military roles to women, the findings of the 2014 review identified that further physiological research is required into the high physical demands inherent in ground close combat roles and the associated potential impact on women’s health. To lift the exclusion without doing this research could place women at risk of personal injury. The physiological research programme is now examining the challenges and risks of including women in ground close combat roles in order to inform a final decision.
I need to make it clear to my noble friend that the women in ground close combat roles review follows the principle that all roles should be open to women unless it can be demonstrated that the exclusion was necessary to maintain combat effectiveness. Therefore, in the event that the exclusion is lifted, any woman serving in a combat role will have passed the physical tests and training to be there in her own right. I can reassure my noble friend on one important point. The requirement to maintain combat effectiveness remains the paramount consideration. Training standards will not be lowered in order to accommodate women and this, in turn, will ensure that the combat effectiveness of ground close combat units is maintained.
The Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary are united in wanting to see all roles in the Armed Forces opened up to women. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, I cannot be precise on dates, but the decision on whether or not women should be allowed to serve in ground close combat roles is expected by the middle of this year. I hope that this explains our position and, in view of what I have said, I hope that my noble friend will agree to withdraw this amendment.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. I am not surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, had a go at me. I went part of the way: I said that we could have women in the Royal Armoured Corps because there is no logic for why a woman should not be able to operate a tank or an armoured fighting vehicle. In fact, there is a possibility that women may be better in certain roles.
The noble Lord, Lord West, was very cruel to me because he took away one of my killer questions to the Minister, which is: if we were in general war and had to conscript people, would we be happy to conscript women into the infantry? I do not think the Minister needs to answer that because it is far too tough a question.
I would like an assurance from the Minister that he will not authorise the fitness and strength standards in the infantry to be lowered. Can we have an assurance that that will not happen? If there are one or two superhuman women who can do it, fine. But as soon as we lower those training and fitness standards, we will have reduced the combat effectiveness of the infantry.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my position is that the solution outlined in my amendment is the right one. In other words, yes to women in the Royal Armoured Corps but no to the infantry and the Royal Marines. We will have to see what happens. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, mesothelioma is a most dreadful disease, as we all know—and very difficult to pronounce, if I may say. It is bad enough for a veteran to have it, let alone having to suffer the unfairness of limited compensation compared to his civilian counterpart. What of the armed services covenant?
A campaign has been run by many, not least by my fellow Labour colleagues and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who I see is sitting in his place. It seems now to have borne fruit: parity of payment for all veteran sufferers now seems to have been agreed. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that this is the case, as no Statement has been made to this effect in the House. The proposals set out in the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, make sense unless these things are being done by some other means, and I am not sure whether they are.
My last few words relate to the need for much more research into this killer disease and much more emphasis on that. More needs to be done, but, crucially, there needs to be a co-ordination of the results of research, particularly between the four big teaching hospitals that are working in this arena. I am led to understand that some sort of central analysis unit, funded by LIBOR money, is being set up to do this work. Will the noble Earl let me know if this is the case?
Earl Howe
My Lords, without wishing to preclude further debate on this amendment, it may be for the benefit of the Committee if I confirm the announcement made by my ministerial colleague in another place on 29 February. This was that the option of receiving a lump sum of £140,000 will be extended to veterans in receipt of a war pension for diffuse mesothelioma who were diagnosed before 16 December 2015 and also to those who have yet to have a claim accepted. We listened to the views of parliamentarians and ex-service organisations, particularly the Royal British Legion, which commented that the Government had “done the right thing” in announcing these changes to the compensation pay-out.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I support the amendment moved by the noble Lord today in Committee. I apologise to the Committee, as, although I attended some of the Second Reading debate, duties elsewhere in the House prevented me from being able to be present for the Minister’s reply. I therefore did not speak at that stage and I crave the indulgence of the Committee in speaking today.
Noble Lords might know that I currently have before the House a Private Member’s Bill which has received a Second Reading. It enjoyed all-party support and would provide funding for research—to which the noble and gallant Lord just referred—into the causes of mesothelioma, a disease which the Government themselves predict will take a further 60,000 British lives. We have the highest incidence of mesothelioma anywhere in the world. No effective treatment exists; there is no cure and once diagnosed, the average patient dies within a few months.
On introducing that Bill, and in relation to our Armed Forces, I said that,
“the failure of the 2014 Act to include provision for compensation for our servicemen who die of mesothelioma is a glaring anomaly. The British Legion, the Royal Navy & Royal Marines Charity, the Royal Navy Royal Marines Widows’ Association, the Royal Naval Association and others all support calls for change”.—[Official Report, 20/11/15; col. 385.]
I contrasted at the time the position of a 63 year-old civilian, who might expect to receive around £180,000 in compensation, compared with a veteran’s entitlement to a year’s worth of war pension which, paid at the maximum rate for a non-married naval veteran, amounts to just £31,000. I argued then that veterans should be offered compensation at least equal to that which the courts and the Government have decided that civilians deserve. The unequal treatment of our servicemen and servicewomen amounts to a serious breach of the Armed Forces covenant, which is supposed to ensure that veterans are not disadvantaged because of their service.
I am particularly grateful, therefore, that the department has recognised that this is an anomaly that needs to be rectified, and I strongly welcome what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said to the Committee a few moments ago. Of course, this echoes what his honourable friend in another place, the Parliamentary Undersecretary, recently told the House of Commons. He will also know that there was not just that anomaly: there was an anomaly within the anomaly in that a very small group of people—some 60—had been excluded from the scheme because of the way in which the timeline in the announcement fell. It is particularly good that the noble Earl has been able to say today that that will be removed—that the effect of the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord West, has put before the Committee will be realised.
The noble Earl will also know, especially given his previous duties at the Department of Health, that this is a disease that does not have a cure and needs much more basic research. He will also know that until the mid-1960s, blue asbestos—crocidolite—was widely used in the insulation of Royal Navy vessels. In consequence, many Royal Navy personnel have died of mesothelioma, particularly those working in boiler rooms and in engineering trades but also those on board ships during refits.
Professor Julian Peto, in an analysis for the Royal British Legion, estimates that a further 2,500 Royal Navy personnel will die of mesothelioma between now and 2047. On 8 December 2015 I asked the noble Earl in a Parliamentary Question how the Government intend,
“to assist members of the armed forces who are diagnosed with mesothelioma in the future; and what assessment they have made of whether those individuals should receive financial support at least equivalent to that of civilians diagnosed with the disease”.
The noble Earl replied that this was “a complex matter” and that:
“The Department commissioned advice from the Independent Medical Expert Group to look at mesothelioma and the awards paid through the WPS”.
The noble Earl promised an announcement and we have now received that.
However, if I may say so, there were also written into this and other Questions tabled at the time questions about the levels of research and indeed the data collection by the Government. I refer particularly to the comments of Commodore Rhod Palmer, who is a third-generation Royal Navy sailor diagnosed with mesothelioma in April 2015. Incidentally, he is one of those who would have been excluded from the new compensation scheme—the anomaly within the anomaly. He said:
“No amount of money will ever compensate sufferers and their families for a preventable death. However, it is a real breakthrough that the Government will treat all current and future sufferers of mesothelioma exposed to asbestos during their Service under comparable terms as civilians. This payment allows patients with mesothelioma to make arrangements to maximise their quality of life during this terminal illness and to support the family that they leave behind”.
He went on to say:
“Looking to the future, I strongly encourage further funding of research into advancing the treatment of this devastating condition”.
The noble Earl will recall that when he was at the Department of Health I moved an amendment to the Mesothelioma Act to provide financial support from the levy on the insurance industry, which was defeated by a handful of votes. At the time four insurance companies were voluntarily supporting research and the noble Earl believed that many of the other 120 insurance companies covered by the levy would voluntarily join the other four in supporting research into this killer disease. Sadly, I have to inform the noble Earl and the Committee that the opposite has happened, with only two companies now voluntarily supporting research. In supporting this amendment and welcoming this week’s announcement, I ask the noble Earl to study the correspondence that I have sent him today, which includes a letter sent on 18 February to Mr George Osborne, the Chancellor, by Professor Sir Anthony Newman Taylor CBE of Imperial College, urging him to release LIBOR funds—referred to by the noble Lord, Lord West—to help fund a national mesothelioma research centre, which Imperial wishes to create with the National Heart and Lung Institute, the Royal Brompton Hospital, the Institute of Cancer Research and the Royal Marsden Hospital. Incidentally, in that letter Sir Anthony says that the current rate of death is around 3,000 a year. He says:
“There is an urgent need to find curative treatment for this awful disease”.
He says that modern genetics hold great promise but that,
“sadly, to date, mesothelioma has not been the focus to achieve this at any research centre in the UK, or, as far as I am aware, at any centre worldwide”.
The Committee will recall the decision of the Chancellor to transfer some £35 million from the fines levied on the banks for attempting to manipulate the LIBOR interest rate. That money was transferred to the MoD for use in supporting the Armed Forces community. The proposal from Imperial College would be an imaginative use of some of those funds to help to find cures for a disease which has claimed too many lives among members of our Armed Forces. Following our debate today, therefore, I would be grateful if the noble Earl would write to me with a considered response to Sir Anthony’s initiative.
I shall conclude with a word about data collection within the Armed Forces. In February 2014, I asked the Government,
“how many of the annual fatalities caused by mesothelioma involve former members of the armed forces; what data are kept on the cause of death of former servicemen; and what research they plan to commission into the incidence of mesothelioma amongst former servicemen”.
The then Parliamentary Under-Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Astor of Hever, replied:
“Data on the number of annual fatalities caused by mesothelioma does not identify those who were former members of the Armed Forces … The MOD has no plans to commission research into the incidence of mesothelioma amongst former Service Personnel”.—[Official Report, 11/2/14; col. WA 125-6.]
It is the duty of the department to do that, and it should have such plans. I encourage the noble Earl to revisit this issue. This should not be a case of don’t ask, don’t say. This is about people’s lives and our duty of care towards them. Anecdotes and speculative figures are no substitute for hard-edged data and empirical research, and today I again ask that data collection be instigated.
The noble Lord pursued this argument in June last year when he asked Her Majesty’s Government:
“What data is collected about the incidence of mesothelioma among members of the armed forces; what studies of this issue have been conducted; what estimates they have made of the future incidence of mesothelioma among service men and women and of connected fatalities”.
Those questions still have to be answered, and I hope today’s debate will help us to attend to that. In reply the Minister said:
“The MOD has not conducted studies or research about mesothelioma”.
Surely it is high time it did.
The London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine produced an estimate in 2009 that about 2,500 Royal Navy veterans will die from mesothelioma between 2013 and 2047. Surely, we should be commissioning research across the services to establish what the likely incidence will be and, more importantly, what we can do to avert this suffering and these deaths. Surely we should be supporting the work of our scientific community and offering hope to those who have been diagnosed with this horrible disease.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
Perhaps I can help the noble Earl because his noble friend Lord Prior of Brampton has been extraordinarily helpful on this subject and, as recently as two weeks ago, convened a meeting at the Department of Health which I attended. Many of the people involved in current research into mesothelioma were present. The big issue they all raised was sustained funding. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, knows far more about this than me so I am sure he will deal with it in his reply. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, can be reassured that there is a lot of interest within the research community but it comes down to funding.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, for raising this critical issue. Mesothelioma—as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, outlined—is a devastating disease that changes the lives of not only the people diagnosed with it but also those who care about them: their families and loved ones. The fact that life expectancy after diagnosis can be so tragically short is why it is so important to ensure that we get the support right for those affected by the disease.
The arrangements we announced will give veterans and their families greater control over their finances and choices to suit their individual needs. So, subject to finalising the necessary legislative changes, lump sums of £140,000 will be able to be paid from 11 April 2016. The lump sum will be provided through the well-established war pensions scheme, administered by Defence Business Services Veterans UK. Veterans UK currently prioritises claims for mesothelioma and will continue to do so. Claimants will be given a choice of either the new lump sum or the existing war pension payments. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, spoke about the need to raise awareness and I fully understand that concern. Defence Business Services Veterans UK will write to existing and new war pensions scheme claimants diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma to explain that they have the option of the current payment arrangements or the new lump sum. The Veterans Welfare Service will be on hand to help claimants understand the lump sum option.
Defence Business Services cannot offer independent financial advice, so claimants will be advised to seek independent financial advice and to discuss their decision with their families. In addition to the announcements we made and to raise awareness of the lump sum option, details were given on the same day to ex-service organisations for them to publicise to their members.
On detection and treatment of mesothelioma, when individuals leave the Armed Forces their healthcare needs become the responsibility of the National Health Service. Most people with mesothelioma will therefore see their GP first if they are worried about symptoms. Regrettably, there is no reliable screening test for mesothelioma. The aim of screening is to pick up cancers at an early stage of the disease before symptoms develop. At the moment it can be difficult to diagnose mesothelioma since the usual tests for lung diseases often appear to be negative. Additional monitoring—as proposed in Amendment 22—outside of encouraging those worried about symptoms to contact their GP as early as possible would therefore not help detect cases any earlier.
We are, however, engaging with NHS bodies on disseminating information to GPs, respiratory clinics and other healthcare professionals so that when they treat a veteran with mesothelioma caused by military service they can also direct them to the GOV.UK website and the Veterans UK helpline. They have details of how to make a claim under the war pensions scheme and the new lump sum option. I hope that the Committee will agree that this shows that we are absolutely committed to supporting veterans with mesothelioma, and the wider Armed Forces community.
Lord Tunnicliffe
The Minister mentioned necessary legislative changes. Is it the Government’s intention to use the Bill as a vehicle?
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, I thank all those who have spoken. It shows the concern that we all have about this dreadful disease. There has been a lack of understanding about it. The efforts of so many are beginning to make people more aware. I would very much like to be included in the letter of response about the central analysis of research, which the Minister was going to send to the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I am sure he will send it to all Members here, because it would be interesting to know whether that LIBOR funding is available and whether it is going ahead. That would be very useful.
In among all this, this is a most happy outcome for the 60 people who have fallen through the cracks. This is good news and it is so lovely to have unadulterated good news. That so seldom happens. It was urgent, because between four and five of these men die every month. I am glad that this change is happening quickly. It will therefore have an impact and make a real difference. It is in the spirit of the Armed Forces covenant as well. I know that the Minister personally really understands that issue and how important it is. I thank him for that. It is the right result and I congratulate the Government on recognising the justice of the claim and for taking this action. I know that there is still a lot more to be done in other ways, but that is all very good news and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Touhig
My Lords, living as we do in a time when news reporting is constant, continuous and around the clock, the public rightly expect Governments to be the same, especially when reporting on conflicts in which our Armed Forces are engaged. Parliament and the British people have the right to be kept informed about not only what happens to our forces but also the impact our actions might have on civilians in the conflict zone. The Government currently report on civilian casualties in a number of different conflicts that we are involved in, including Iraq, Syria, west Africa—the Ebola response—and Afghanistan. That is the right thing to do. It demonstrates openness, transparency and proper regard for the loss of life that inevitably occurs in conflict, whether military or civilian deaths.
None of us who supported the Government’s decision to use air strikes against ISIL in Syria did so lightly. I have not spoken to a single person who did not have concerns that there would be casualties among the civilian population. To date, the Government have stated that there have been no reports of civilian casualties as a result of our air strikes. Having said that, I look forward to hearing from the Minister what guidelines the Government set themselves for collecting data and reporting on casualties, whether military or civilian, in any conflict in which we are currently engaged.
On this side, we certainly welcome the aspirations that motivated this amendment but we have doubts that it is the best way to deal with the issue of reporting on civilian casualties—I am grateful for the excellent briefing on this that I was given earlier today. For example, the amendment addresses the matter of reporting civilian casualties caused by air strikes but says nothing about reporting civilian casualties caused by ground forces. Often, ground operations are in play as well as air strikes. More than that, if we are to enshrine in primary legislation the reporting of civilian casualties in conflict, this is not the right vehicle to do so. Some might argue that reporting on civilian casualties is not simply an Armed Forces issue alone but has wider foreign affairs and international development implications. If that argument were accepted, we would need a cross-government input and approach to legislation to achieve the objectives that would be set out.
We certainly welcome the opportunity that this amendment gives us for debate and we have had some important and useful contributions. I look forward to the Minister’s reply and hope that we will have regular reports to Parliament on the conflicts, especially details of the number of casualties—even where there are none. That is very important. We welcome the opportunity for debate that the amendment affords but in its present form we would not support it.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hodgson for introducing his amendment, which would, as he explained, create a legislative obligation on the department to report civilian casualties following RAF operations, including sharing the details of investigations with Parliament. I recognise that this is a probing amendment but I hope to show my noble friend that his concerns are recognised and being properly addressed.
I make it clear at the outset that the MoD takes very seriously—and always will—any allegations of civilian casualties. The Defence Secretary committed to review all claims of this nature. We have robust processes in place to review reports of civilian casualties and to launch investigations where appropriate, and we will continue to consider all available credible evidence to support such assessments.
It is important for me to emphasise that the Ministry of Defence takes all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties when conducting any form of military operation. All missions are meticulously planned to ensure that every care is taken to avoid or minimise civilian casualties, and our use of extremely accurate precision-guided munitions supports this.
We have a robust process in place to authorise air strikes that is tried and tested. All military targeting is governed by strict rules of engagement in accordance with both UK and international humanitarian law. Of course, the men and women of our Armed Forces are highly trained, including in the law of armed conflict. I should also make it clear that we will not use force unless we are satisfied that the use of force is both necessary and lawful. When we carry out a strike, we carry out a full assessment to determine the damage that has been caused, specifically checking very carefully whether there are likely to have been civilian casualties.
I can assure the Committee, lest there is any doubt, that the Ministry of Defence is committed to transparency as far as possible. We have been very open and transparent about the strikes conducted in Iraq and Syria. They are reported regularly online two or three times a week. These reports explain where the action has taken place and what effect has been achieved in the fight against Daesh. However, I hope that the Committee will agree that it is also paramount that we maintain personnel and operational security. This can include not revealing details about our targeting process, which may endanger personnel and our ability to operate.
Furthermore, while a requirement in primary legislation to publish data on a regular basis may be seen as a means of holding the current Government to account—and, for that matter, future Governments—it may also on occasions be a very inflexible tool which is soon out of date and redundant. As I have made clear, the MoD has clear processes and procedures to limit civilian casualties, and the principle of openness and transparency on this issue is something which the MoD and I strongly support. Where information is not disclosed, it is for very good operational reasons.
The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, asked about regular reports on Operation Shader, which, as he knows, is the counter-Daesh operation in Iraq and Syria. The Government’s first quarterly report on Syria was provided to the House of Commons by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on 16 December last year. The Secretary of State of DfID, my right honourable friend Justine Greening, provided a second quarterly report on 8 February this year. I cannot be specific about the date of the next report but it will be issued in due course.
I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on the particular question she raised and to my noble friend in respect of those of his questions that I have not covered. In the light of what I have said on this matter, I hope my noble friend will agree to withdraw his amendment at this stage.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, I am grateful to all who have participated in this short debate—the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. Apropos of his comment, I of course understand that this is a coalition, but I am thinking, “Physician, heal thyself”. We start by trying to make sure that the unpleasant things that our personnel are doing on our behalf are properly corrected first, and then, by setting standards, maybe our allies will follow.
I thank my noble friend very much for his full reply and his promise to follow up on the points that he has been unable to answer now. I hope that I made it clear that from our visit to RAF Waddington we were well aware of the very considerable care that has been taken to make sure that those on the ground are balanced by the cooler heads further away from the point of action. I understand the question of inflexibility. This is a probing amendment, but it was helpful for us to have a debate this afternoon, and I look forward to hearing the follow up in due course. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.