15:23 - The House divided: - Ayes: 520 / Noes: 22 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)
I beg to move,
That the modified Charter for Budget Responsibility, which was laid before this House on 19 March, be approved.
I am putting before the House today a charter for budget responsibility updated to include a new cap on welfare spending. I am conscious that this is a time-limited debate and will keep my remarks brief so that others can speak. The welfare cap marks an important moment in the development of the British welfare state. I believe the public back a welfare system that provides fair support for those genuinely in need and that supports those who have a disability and cannot work; those caring for others; those on maternity or paternity leave; and those who have lost a job and are trying hard to find work. The public, through their taxes on that hard work, are willing to pay for that support. It is a level of support that a country such as ours—we now have a growing economy—can afford to give.
However, that is not the welfare state we inherited in 2010. That welfare state was not fair and not affordable. It was not fair that some received £50,000, £60,000 or up to £100,000 in housing benefit, paid for by taxpayers who could never dream of affording homes with rents that big, so we capped housing benefit payments at just over £20,000 a year.
Mr Osborne
I will give way in a moment.
It was not fair that many out-of-work families received more as an income in welfare than the average family got from going out to work, so we capped the total benefits that one family can receive at £26,000. Thirty-six thousand households are now subject to the cap.
Sheila Gilmore
How many families received housing benefit at the level he first mentioned—the £50,000-plus mark? Is he aware that, of the families covered by the benefit cap, nearly half are in temporary accommodation provided by councils because they owe them the statutory duty?
Mr Osborne
First of all, 21,000 people have been affected by the housing benefit cap, so 21,000 people were receiving housing benefit more than that. Secondly, the hon. Lady seems to be suggesting that she is against the cap on benefits. That points to a wider truth that we will discover today about the welfare cap, and specifically whether the Labour party is committed to the cap we are setting out today, with the list of benefits in it. We will discover whether Labour is committed to the cap at the level we have set—not just the principle of a welfare cap, but the practical application of it.
Mr Osborne
We will explore that point later, but let me take my hon. Friend’s intervention.
Robert Halfon
Is my right hon. Friend aware that a person on average wages pays roughly £1,200 a year in taxation just to pay the welfare bill, not including pensions? Does he agree that the welfare cap is fair on lower earners?
Mr Osborne
It is absolutely fair. That is what the cap is about—building a welfare system that is fair to those who need it and fair to those who pay for it.
Mr Osborne
I will take a couple of interventions in a while. I have only 15 minutes for my opening remarks because we want lots of contributions later in the debate.
It was not fair that benefits were unlimited. We have introduced a cap. It was not fair that those looking for work faced marginal tax rates as high as 96%, sapping the incentives to find a job. We are addressing that through universal credit. It was not fair that benefits were rising much faster than wages; not fair that people who could never afford a place with a spare room subsidised the spare rooms of others; not fair that people who did not speak English could receive out-of-work benefits without even trying to learn it; and not fair that the long-term unemployed were cycled and recycled through the new deal. That was not fair, but it was the welfare system we inherited. It was unfair to those trapped in poverty and to the millions of people who paid for it. It was a perverse distortion of what William Beveridge had conceived. In the face of opposition to each and every measure we have introduced, we are removing those distortions, restoring the work incentives and creating a fair welfare state.
Mr Osborne
I will take an intervention from the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant).
Chris Bryant
Will the Chancellor confirm that, since his initial spending review, he has had to spend £13 billion more on welfare than he predicted? He has had to put it up by £1 billion this year and another £1 billion next year, so if the cap he envisages had been in place during this Parliament, he would have had to come to the House and apologise on four occasions?
Mr Osborne
For a start, welfare spending is £3.7 billion lower than I set out in my first Budget. It is also £10 billion less than the Labour party proposed. Labour Members cannot have it both ways. They keep claiming that we are cutting the welfare system and then complain that the cost is too high. That is one thing that we will explore in the debate—what exactly is the Labour policy.
Mr Osborne
I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) and then make progress.
James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)
If we had followed the policies of the Labour party, we would not have created 1.3 million jobs and those people would have been on benefits.
Mr Osborne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have also created the right incentives so that work pays. Alongside supporting business—by the way, extraordinarily, the Labour party last night voted to increase taxes on business—we are creating an environment in which jobs are being created.
We are creating a fairer welfare state.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Osborne
I will give way in a little moment, but let me make some more progress.
We are creating a welfare state that the country—
Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Osborne
Of course I will give way, but will the shadow Chancellor confirm, so that we know the terms of this debate, whether he is committed to the specific welfare cap, the list of the benefits included and the level to which the Government have committed? The shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), said on the radio that Labour would do things differently. Perhaps he could confirm that.
Ed Balls
I will make my speech on the welfare cap in a moment. I want to go back to the remark the Chancellor just made about last night’s vote. We have said that we do not think we should go ahead with the next cut in corporation tax and instead use all the money for a freeze in business rates for small businesses. Is the Chancellor really saying that large companies are business, but small businesses do not count? [Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Just to remind everybody, shorter interventions would be helpful. We have 11 speakers to follow and I know the Front Benchers are desperate to hear the Back Benchers.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
Both the Chancellor and the Prime Minister have used the line that people on benefits are getting £60,000, £70,000, £80,000 and £90,000 a year. I have tabled parliamentary questions and freedom of information requests on this point. Will the Chancellor tell me how many people are receiving more than £100,000 a year?
Mr Osborne
None, because we have capped housing benefit payments. [Interruption.] Just to clear up the previous point, Labour is going to say to the country, “Elect a Labour Government and business tax will be higher and corporation tax will be higher.” That is a terrible message to send to the rest of the world. [Interruption.]
Mr Osborne
If the right hon. Gentleman has something useful to say, let us hear it.
Ed Balls
We are proposing that all the money from deferring the cut in corporation tax goes to small business in a business rates freeze. That is not a rise in the taxes on business, unless the Chancellor thinks that somehow small businesses are second class and do not count. Is that really what the Chancellor is saying?
Mr Osborne
We have cut the corporation tax rate for small businesses. We have capped rates for small businesses. We are giving a £1,000 discount to high street stores. Those are the measures we are taking for small businesses, and we are also cutting the corporation tax rate. The truth is that Labour is now committed to higher business taxes in Britain with a high corporation tax rate.
Mr Osborne
May I just say to the shadow Chancellor that he does not need to talk to me? He needs to talk to the business community of Britain, which knows that he is anti-business. His party is anti-business, anti-job creation and, as I am about to explain, it is the welfare party, too. If he waits a little, he can intervene and answer the question that we need answered.
Mr Osborne
I will give way in a moment. Let me make progress with my speech. [Interruption.] All right, I will give way if the right hon. Gentleman answers this question in his intervention: is Labour committed to a higher rate of corporation tax? Yes or no?
Ed Balls
The Chancellor must not mislead and misrepresent on the welfare state or on business taxes. Labour is not committed to an increase in business tax. He has said that three times. Every time he has said that, he has misled this House. I am saying that all the money from the corporation tax rate will go back to small business. That is the right position. Every time he misleads this House I will correct him, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Mr Osborne
This is desperate stuff from the shadow Chancellor. If Labour had had its way in the vote last night, business taxes would be higher—yes or no?
Mr Osborne
Yes, they would be, because corporation tax would be higher and businesses would be paying more. No wonder Labour does not have a clue about how to fix the economy or how to deal with the welfare system. That is evident from its period in office, when welfare spending, which will be contained by the cap, went up 42% in real terms. Housing benefit went up by £7.6 billion alone, as a real increase—bigger than the entire police budget. Every single one of the pounds the Labour Government spent on working age welfare was not earned, but borrowed—borrowed because Britain could not pay its way in the world. Rather than using valuable public resources to pay for apprenticeships, science, roads and railways, money was spent on an unaffordable, unfair and out-of-control benefits bill. That economic insecurity is being addressed and control is being re-established. We insist that welfare is affordable and we insist that it is fair: fair to those who need it and fair to those who pay for it.
Mr Osborne
I will make a bit of progress and then take some interventions.
Today, we take another important step towards the goal. We seek the support of Parliament not just for the principle of this welfare cap—important as that is—but its practical application: the list of benefits in it and the cash limit we set out today. I have noticed, in the past 24 hours, a change in the language being used by those on the Labour Front Bench. A day or two ago it was, “We are going to vote for the Government’s welfare cap.” Clearly, Labour MPs did not like that, so this morning the shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, said that Labour will sign up to something called a welfare cap, but that
“We would do it in different ways”.
What different ways? Does that mean different benefits would be included? [Interruption.] Will the shadow Chief Secretary, the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), explain Labour’s welfare cap? Does that mean different levels of benefits? Does it mean a different level of spending? Every time the Opposition are faced with a difficult decision and asked to prove their fiscal credibility, they buckle because they are weak. We know what has happened. They have read the polls and seen the focus groups. They are being told not to vote against the welfare cap, but everyone knows what their instincts are. Everyone knows what gets them a cheer at the Labour conference: more spending on welfare paid for by more borrowing. Indeed, their only welfare policy is a £500,000 increase in housing benefit. The shadow Work and Pensions Secretary gave it away last week, in a private left-wing meeting. She said this, in private:
“it will be much better if we can say that all of the changes the Government have introduced we can reverse and all benefits can be universal.”
At least those Labour MPs voting against the welfare cap today are being true to what they believe in. No one thinks that of the shadow Chancellor and the Labour leadership today.
Time is short, so let me set out briefly how the cap will operate, first by enforcing public expenditure control where there was none previously. Welfare spending was called annual managed expenditure by the previous Government—no doubt a term dreamt up by the shadow Chancellor when he was running things so badly—but it was expenditure that was neither managed nor set annually. Now it will be. The Budget document sets out the 26 different benefits that will sit under the cap. They include almost all transfer payments from tax credits, housing benefit and employment and support allowance to statutory maternity pay, carer’s allowance and disability living allowance.
Some of those benefits, such as statutory maternity pay, have relatively stable and predictable costs, while others, such as housing benefit, have consistently grown much faster than forecast; but each one involves many hundreds of millions, often billions, of pounds of spending, and deserves the same careful management and scrutiny as items in the defence budget or the education budget. Some of those benefits, such as disability living allowance, help some of the most vulnerable citizens, but that is not an excuse for failure to manage their budgets. After all, our national health service also cares for the most vulnerable, but that does not prevent us from giving it an annual budget.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
Will the Chancellor spell out the implications for devolved regions such as Northern Ireland, where welfare spending is devolved? What is the implication for the block grant if there is a rise in welfare expenditure through no fault of the Northern Ireland Executive?
Mr Osborne
Many benefits apply universally throughout the United Kingdom, but some areas of welfare spending are devolved. I know that there are specific arrangements with Northern Ireland, and we have been having discussions with the Northern Ireland Executive. I am well aware that the right hon. Gentleman represents only one party in the power-sharing arrangement, but we are keen to see the Executive make progress on welfare reforms and help to control the bills, and, as he knows, we are discussing that with him and his colleagues. However, I shall be happy to sit down and work out with him how some of the principles of the welfare cap here can be used to control welfare spending in Northern Ireland.
Mr Osborne
Let me make a few more points first. I will give way in a second—or a minute, perhaps.
The only benefits that we are excluding from the cap are the most cyclical ones which track the performance of the economy directly, such as jobseeker’s allowance and the housing benefit that is passported with it. They are the basic automatic stabilisers. By excluding only those benefits, we ensure that the economic cycle does not drive permanently higher spending on, for instance, sickness and disability benefits. We have also excluded the state pension and the additional pension. I know that the shadow Chancellor wanted to include them, but I would think it pretty unfair if a Chancellor who, for example, lost control of tax credit spending responded by cutting the basic state pension. That would not be sensible, and it would certainly not be fair. I think that adjusting the pension age is the best way to control expenditure on pensions over the long term as life expectancy rises.
In the Budget, we set the cash limit for the benefit cap at £119.5 billion in 2015-16—
Mr Osborne
I shall now ask the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) whether he supports that cash limit.
Andrew Gwynne
In one breath, the Chancellor talks of fairness to taxpayers and the need to impose budgetary control on welfare spending. Can he perhaps explain to the House why setting up universal credit has cost taxpayers about £161,000 per claimant?
Mr Osborne
This is a huge system that will apply to millions and millions of people. Let me tell the House what we are going to do. I know that this will come as a complete shock to the Labour party, but we are going to take our time, get it right, and make sure that we do not put everyone on to a new credit with which the system cannot cope, which is exactly what the Labour party did with tax credits. All of us who were Members of Parliament at that time remember people coming to our surgeries who had been treated shockingly by a Labour Administration who had not got their administration right.
As I was saying, we will set the cash limit for the welfare cap at £119 billion. If inflation is higher than forecast, the Government cannot wash their hands of that either. Public services such as the police and transport have to absorb higher inflation, so why should welfare budgets be different? [Interruption.] I am sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker; there is a private conversation going on. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has done more to reform the welfare state than any of that lot.
The charter makes clear what will happen if the welfare cap is breached. The Chancellor must come to Parliament, account for the failure of public expenditure control, and set out the action that will be taken to address the breach. Then the House of Commons—the ultimate guardian of the people’s money—
Mr Osborne
No; I am going to end my speech now. [Interruption.] Well, I want to make sure that all these Labour Members have a chance to stand up and say exactly what they think of the welfare cap, and tell us that they support it, and that they should have introduced it when they were in office. They look such a cheery bunch. I want to make sure that they have a chance to explain what they are voting for this afternoon—or perhaps some of them will not.
I could set out more of the details, but much of that has already been done in the Red Book. This is the key point that I want to make to Labour Members. The welfare cap brings responsibility, accountability and fairness. Those who want to undo our welfare reforms will now have to tell us about the other cuts that they will make, or else come clean and admit to the public that what they really want are higher welfare bills. The phoney argument that welfare can be magically cut by a Government’s spending more and borrowing more will run into the brick wall of the OBR’s independent assessment. The phoney argument that a Government can spend half a billion pounds of taxpayers’ money on a spare room subsidy and pay for it with a cut in winter fuel payments worth a fifth of that will be exposed by an inevitable breach of the welfare cap. The “welfare party” will have to make its case for more welfare spending in the plain sight of the British people.
Our welfare cap ensures that never again can the costs spiral out of control and the incentives become so distorted that it pays not to work. From now on, any Government who want to spend more on welfare will have to be honest with the public—honest about the costs—and secure the approval of Parliament in order to breach the cap. Twenty-six benefits will be controlled by the welfare cap as part of our long-term economic plan to restore sanity to the public finances. This is a system that is affordable and fair, and I commend it to the House.
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)
I am grateful to the shadow Chief Secretary for his support for this measure, albeit that from him and the Chancellor we heard another two flatlining speeches from a flatlining political party.
Danny Alexander
Shadow Chancellor. I am glad he agrees that he is flatlining.
This has been an important debate, and I agreed with the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) in one respect. She was right to say that this was an important debate on an important subject and should be treated as such. However, it is for precisely those reasons that I support the cap that we are debating, as does my party. Let me explain why. During the debate a few myths have grown up about the cap, which I want to tackle. Fundamentally, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) made clear, the motion is about accountability to Parliament and about the transparency of public expenditure decisions.
Danny Alexander
I do not have much time; I intend to make some progress.
Fundamentally, the motion is about ensuring that we have greater control over public expenditure in this country, and that where a Government wish to deviate from the plans they set out to this House, they must return to the House to explain why they want to make a change, or what action they will take to deal with the pressures that have emerged.
One of my priorities when I came into office as Chief Secretary was to increase the amount of public expenditure that is under the direct control of Government, and indeed under the direct control and accountability of this House.
Danny Alexander
I will not give way.
When we came into office, only 53.8% of public expenditure was under a direct mechanism of control—departmental expenditure limits. That means that nearly half of public expenditure was simply beyond control—it was so-called annually managed expenditure, which in practice meant annually unmanaged expenditure. Progressively, over the course of this Parliament, we have put in place additional mechanisms to control an ever-rising amount of public expenditure. The pension reforms, which mean that in future the state pension age will be linked to life expectancy, bring greater control over the costs of the basic state pension. The reforms of public service pensions, which include a cap on the costs within public sector pension schemes, bring that source of expenditure, which had ballooned out of control under Labour, much more directly under the control of Government.
In total, when the measures in the welfare cap are included, we will have increased the amount of expenditure under direct control and directly accountable and transparent to this House from around 50% at the start of the Parliament to 77% at the end of it. From the perspective of every Member in the House, that ought to be a welcome change, because it means that this House has more say and more ability to scrutinise and hold accountable the Government for changes in public expenditure that take place on their watch.
A number of hon. Members mentioned unemployment benefits and jobseeker’s allowance. The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) referred to his experience in receipt of unemployment benefits. He is right that most people in that situation are not there through any fault of their own. That is precisely why jobseeker’s allowance is excluded from the scope of the cap. The benefits that are the so-called automatic stabilisers that fluctuate with the state of the economy—jobseeker’s allowance and the benefits that are passported from it and, in due course, those elements of universal credit, too—will not be in the scope of the cap, precisely for the reasons that he described in his speech. That perhaps ought to reassure him and encourage him to vote for the measure.
Fundamentally in the end, I think those people who are speaking against the cap betray their own lack of confidence in their ability, should they wish to, to come to the House transparently and accountably and persuade the House—
Danny Alexander
I have one minute left. No, I am not going to take any interventions; I am going to make progress.
Those people who speak against the cap betray an enormous lack of confidence in the ability of those who think that, in response to circumstances, welfare spending should be increased above the cap, to come here and persuade the House that that increase in expenditure would be necessary. The truth, over many years, has been that where there have been changes in forecasts, and where decisions have been made that have led to increased costs, they have been sneaked in through the back door, through the forecast, without any direct accountability to this House.
The people who say that the cap involves expenditure cuts are also wrong. The cap starts at around £120 billion and rises over five years to £127 billion, in line with inflation, so we have set it at a reasonable level. In this House, we should never again go back to the situation we had under the previous Government, where public expenditure was uncontrolled, and where debt and the deficit were allowed to balloon uncontrollably. This is part of clearing up the mess that was made of the public finances, and I commend the motion to the House.
Question put.