12:44 - Division on Amendment 220A - Ayes: 154 / Noes: 212 - Amendment 220A disagreed.
15:24 - Division on Amendment 223A - Ayes: 165 / Noes: 189 - Amendment 223A disagreed.
17:20 - Division on Amendment 231B - Ayes: 168 / Noes: 91 - Amendment 231B agreed.
18:15 - Division on Amendment 238H - Ayes: 59 / Noes: 146 - Amendment 238H disagreed.
“( ) Until section 8 comes into force, the references in this Part to the National Health Service Commissioning Board (other than the reference in section 95(11)(b)) are to be read as references to the NHS Commissioning Board Authority.
( ) Until the day specified by Secretary of State for the purposes of section 14A of the National Health Service Act 2006, the references in this Part to a clinical commissioning group (other than the reference in section 95(11)(a)) are to be read as references to a Primary Care Trust.
( ) Until section 180 comes into force, the following provisions in this Part are to be read as if the words “and its Healthwatch England committee” were omitted—
(a) section 84(4)(c);(b) section 85(5)(a)(iii);(c) section 96(2)(e);(d) section 100(2)(e).”
Baroness Murphy
My Lords, it is evident that everyone around this House who has participated in the discussions on the Bill in effect wants the private patient and other private income to be of benefit to and contribute to institutions whose primary focus, not just their duty, is to public patients. That is what we have all been trying to achieve and it is a matter of finding the right words. Actually, I was going to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that I quite liked her Amendment 220. The amendment might not have the right wording but it encapsulates exactly the principle that we are trying to get into the Bill. The amendment is admirable.
I do not have any problem at all with Amendment 218A, which is about accounts, because foundation trusts already produce very detailed accounts in order to indicate to Monitor how near or far they are from meeting their existing private patient cap, which is carefully monitored. Those sorts of accounts are already there. The only difficulty is that accounts, being made up by accountants, do not always reflect which service line is supporting another service line. Therefore, I am not quite sure that requiring this great detail will do quite what the opposition Benches hope. However, in principle, I see nothing wrong with the amendment.
It is worth while remembering all the time during these debates that we are talking about a situation where the vast majority of hospitals—apart from a handful of internationally renowned specialist hospitals in London and the suburbs and in one or two other cities outside—have a private patient income of about 2 per cent. That is not likely to change very much. However, we need to add something that is reassuring because we all understand the anxieties out there. Amendment 220BZB, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is an excellent solution. The change to a 5 per cent limit during the year means that there will be no great energy thrown at changing this area, which is the most important thing. We want the board of the hospital and the governors to focus on public patients. If they have some other income coming in from private activity, that is fine, but we do not want them suddenly to throw a lot of energy at it. Therefore, I think that 5 per cent is about right. I know that some foundation trusts have asked for 10 per cent, but 5 per cent is fine.
Requiring hospitals to warn everyone in advance what they are going to do is also helpful. I seek reassurance from the Government that that will still protect the confidentiality of plans, because I know that trusts have expressed anxiety about that. However, I cannot see any problem with it.
The reason that I prefer the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, to Amendment 220C is because his amendment involves the governors. Crucially, they are the people responsible for the institution, whereas Amendment 220C involves the much wider membership—often 10,000, 12,000 or 20,000 members. That is just too unwieldy a group to be seriously involved in the governance of an organisation. They are vital people in getting local communities to be involved in and have knowledge about the hospital but they would not be the right people when it comes to these sorts of changes.
I support much of what the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, has said, but I am attracted to the Government’s amendment, which solves the problem that we are all looking for a solution to.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, this has been a good and constructive debate on NHS foundation trusts. It is right that we should focus on the removal of the private patient income cap, as I am acutely aware that that is where the majority of noble Lords’ concerns lie.
We need to focus on one core point at the outset. Fears have been expressed that removal of the cap could see foundation trusts increasing private income at the expense of NHS patients—in other words, that it could create a two-tier NHS, with those who can afford to pay going to the front of the queue. That is wrong and, I believe, alarmist. There are robust safeguards in place to prevent that kind of outcome.
Allowing a foundation trust to generate more private income does not release it from its prime duty to its NHS patients. Foundation trusts will still have to meet their legally binding contractual obligations on waiting times and provide the highest standards of care for NHS patients. Foundation trusts themselves are very clear about that. Removing the private patient income cap would allow them to bring extra investment in infrastructure and leading-edge technology to benefit NHS patients. Today, foundation trusts can be prevented by the cap from treating private patients who wish to be treated at the trust even when the income that the trust would earn would support its NHS services. The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, was absolutely spot on. The cap leads to the ridiculous situation where NHS consultants are forced to get into their cars to drive to independent providers to perform private patient work in their non-contracted hours. Removing the cap would improve clinical safety for all patients in NHS hospitals, because doctors would be more likely to remain on site for longer.
It may well be, as the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, pointed out, that most foundation trusts will not be affected at all by the removal of the cap. Many of them are earning below their caps at the moment. It is worth noting that NHS trusts, as distinct from NHS foundation trusts, which are not subject to a cap at all, are not earning proportionately more than corresponding foundation trusts. The point is that removing the cap gives the most innovative organisations the opportunity to boost income for NHS services.
I can also assure the House that we have put in place substantial safeguards to protect NHS patients. NHS foundation trusts will remain first and foremost NHS providers. Their principal legal purpose, to treat NHS patients, has been in legislation since 2003. I tabled an amendment in Committee to clarify its legal meaning. A foundation trust’s principal purpose requires it to earn the majority of its income from the NHS. That is very different from saying that 49 per cent of the work of foundation trusts will be with private patients, as some have misinterpreted it. The Bill does not mention 49 per cent, as I hope the noble Baroness is aware. Amendment 220A would remove the clause. That would be most unfortunate, because its effect would be to leave governors and local communities unclear that foundation trusts must remain predominately NHS providers.
There have been worries that the internal governance of foundation trusts will not be strong enough to exercise the requisite control in that area. I hope that I can provide reassurance on that point. As the local community's representatives, it is the responsibility of the governors to hold the board to account for its management of the trust. The governors should also consider whether the level of private activity is in the best interests of their organisation. The Bill will ensure that governors are better able to do that. It strengthens their arm by giving them new powers to hold directors to account and, if necessary, to remove the chair and non-executives of the board of directors. It would be entirely appropriate for the governors to use these powers if they felt that non-NHS activity was not operating in the interests of NHS patients.
At this stage, I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones for setting out a very persuasive case for adding to governors’ powers to oversee a foundation trust’s private income. I have tabled an amendment, which I hope will address his concerns, requiring directors to detail in the trust’s annual plan—that is, the forward look—any proposals to earn private income and the income that they expect to receive. By law, directors already have to take into account governors’ views in preparing this plan, but this amendment would place an explicit duty on governors to consider the plan and be satisfied that any proposals to increase private income would not significantly interfere with their foundation trust’s principal legal purpose to treat NHS patients.
With regard to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, a plan to increase private income substantially—that is, to increase by 5 percentage points or more the proportion of total income earned from non-NHS activity—must secure agreement by a majority of governors in a vote. For example, governors would be required to vote where a foundation trust planned an increase in non-NHS income from 2 per cent to 7 per cent or more of its total income, or from 3 per cent to 8 per cent or more. To make it quite clear, the vote would be triggered by plans for large increases in non-NHS income. Other matters, such as significant transactions, are for foundation trusts to decide. These proposals would complement the amendment that we introduced in Committee to require directors to explain in a foundation trust’s annual report how private income had benefited NHS patients.
Lord Campbell-Savours
We all know of cases where in the real world GPs have said to their patients, “Go private and go early. Effectively, jump the queue”. That is going on all over the country and in certain parts it is happening on a great scale. If that is the case, what is to stop GPs working with governors and consultants to try to move patient activity more towards the development of private operations within National Health Service facilities? Will the impetus not come from GPs working in conjunction with consultants and governors who might be sympathetic to the cause?
Earl Howe
With respect to the noble Lord, perhaps I may point to a later group of amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Phillips, which gets to the heart of that question. I do not think that the noble Lord’s question is directly related to the private patient income cap but, if I may, I should like to cover the answer to it when we reach the later group.
Baroness Thornton
This goes back to the maths, which partly relates to the question that I asked the noble Earl earlier. I think that the Minister and his colleagues may need to look at what his proposals actually say about the proportion. His amendment refers to 5 per cent, and I am not sure that that is not a very tiny amount. I do not want it to be a particularly big amount but I am not sure that the Bill says what the noble Earl says it says. That is the clarification that I need.
Earl Howe
I shall gladly seek clarification and, if I have misled the noble Baroness, I apologise. By the time we reach the end of the debate, I shall have made doubly certain that what I said was correct. I hope that the approach that I have just laid out will allay noble Lords’ concerns, subject to any clarification that I am able to offer the noble Baroness. I am now told that I was absolutely right in what I said.
One thing that these arrangements may well do is nurture the working relationship between directors and governors. I think that they would help to ensure that directors worked collaboratively with their governors to develop non-NHS activity in the best interests of NHS patients. A planned increase of 5 percentage points or more in one year would be a very significant increase in non-NHS income for any foundation trust. Such an increase would certainly be due to a major development becoming operational, such as a new private patient facility. Requiring governors to vote on such a significant development strengthens directors' accountability to their local communities. However, I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, about confidentiality. In all of this, we should be aware that the strengthening of the governors' oversight in this way places increased responsibility on the governors to maintain an appropriate level of confidentiality while a new project is initially developed. I would expect the directors and governors to ensure that a foundation trust's constitution would protect that.
Lord Avebury
I am sorry if I am a little late in raising this point. The Minister was talking about the burden that would be placed on the accounting system by having separate accounts for the private sector when it was a small proportion of the total. How will the person scrutinising these accounts know what the profitability of that private work is when that small amount of the total is not separately itemised in the accounts?
Earl Howe
We would certainly expect boards of directors to satisfy themselves on that point through management accounting systems and, if necessary, produce the relevant evidence to governors, if a question were asked about that. I think that the point that we were alive to was the cost involved in compelling all foundation trusts—some of them hardly have any private income at all—to go to the trouble of producing statutory accounts and separating out those two income streams. Although my noble friend’s question is well placed, it is perhaps a different question from the one that I was addressing.
We can allay all these anxieties in this area through one simple principle, and that is transparency. Today, I have tried to set out an open and transparent regime for the oversight of a foundation trust’s planned increase to non-NHS income. The governors, as representatives of local communities, would hold the directors to account for ensuring that non-NHS activity does not significantly interfere with their foundation trust’s principal legal purpose to provide NHS services. I think our proposals strike the right balance between the powers of the directors—
Baroness Williams of Crosby
Before the Minister concludes, perhaps I may press him on what is implicit in Amendment 220B, although I shall not move it. If, for example, the governors were to oppose a figure of more than 5 per cent, and the figure were greater than appears to be proper in the light of health services, what steps would be available to ensure that health services are protected?
Baroness Northover
As we are on Report, perhaps noble Lords will allow the Minister to develop his argument and then put brief questions in the light of what he said—otherwise he will lose his train of thought.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I hesitate to take issue with the noble Baroness because clearly she is in a position to help the House. However, interventions on Report are quite allowed. I am very puzzled that the Government are trying to seek to rule that Report stage procedure should change so that we simply listen to the Minister. That is not Report.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I am not saying that short questions cannot be put. However, it might be beneficial to the House if the Minister were able to develop his argument. Then, if noble Lords had questions that he had not addressed, that would be the relevant time to put them.
Baroness Northover
That is what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, preferred when he was a Minister. I hear from around the House some sympathy for the point. If the suggestion does not work, no doubt we can take the matter to the Procedure Committee and look at a different way of doing things.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Baroness is not in a position to dictate to the House that it should change its procedure on Report. Surely the beauty of debate lies in interventions, and responses by Ministers. When I was a Minister for 10 years at the Dispatch Box, I always took interventions and welcomed effective and proper debate. I am on my feet—
Baroness Northover
For clarification, perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that the Companion sets out that a Member shall not speak after the Minister on Report,
“except for short questions of elucidation to the minister”.
I realise that noble Lords are putting short questions of elucidation. The Minister made it clear that he wishes to make progress and that at the moment he does not wish to take interventions so that he can develop his argument.
Baroness Northover
He certainly did to me. Perhaps the Minister would like to make it clear—if he wishes to be interrupted many times and not develop his argument, so be it. Perhaps my noble friend would like to clarify—
Lord Campbell-Savours
I object to the procedures of the House of Lords being changed by a junior Minister.
Earl Howe
My only frustration was that I was getting to what my noble friend wanted me to cover but she did not give me the chance to do it. Otherwise, I am more than happy to take questions from noble Lords on points of clarification.
I was explaining that governors, as representatives of local communities, will hold directors to account for ensuring that non-NHS activity does not significantly interfere with the foundation trust’s principal legal purpose, which is to provide NHS services. Our proposals strike the right balance between the powers of the directors and the responsibility of the governors.
The answer to my noble friend’s point, and that of my noble friend Lady Williams, is that Monitor will publish guidance for NHS providers on the requirements it sets for them to maintain the continuity of NHS services. We fully expect this guidance to cover conditions for foundation trusts relating to the need to ensure that the continued provision of NHS services is not put at risk by non-NHS activity. As the House will know, foundation trusts will be required to demonstrate how non-NHS income contributes to the foundation trust’s delivery of improved NHS services. In particular, if a foundation trust is increasing its non-NHS income by more than 5 per cent of its total income in a year, we will expect Monitor in every instance to review whether there is any cause to intervene in order to safeguard the ongoing provision of NHS services. This will be in addition to the required scrutiny and approval by the foundation trust’s governors. I hope that fully reassures my noble friends that this matter is not just a question that will be looked at within the confines of a foundation trust. It will have wider exposure than that.
I am afraid I am going to disappoint the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, not as regards her amendment, which she did not speak to, but as regards Amendment 220C. The problem with it is that it would give Monitor the discretion to agree private income caps for foundation trusts. It would also retain the current cap and, as I have indicated, we think that the cap is unfair and has definitional complexities. That is an undesirable road to go down. It would burden foundation trusts with a governance regime that would be bureaucratic, costly and at odds with a foundation trust’s ability to manage itself.
Requiring governors to vote on any increase to their trust’s private patient cap, and therefore any increase to non-NHS income, would unreasonably inhibit the board of directors’ ability to manage its organisation. We surely do not want foundation trusts being run by boards that are constantly requiring votes by governors. The proposal in Amendment 220C would also require a majority vote by the members of a foundation trust for any increase to the trust’s private patient cap. That is a completely misguided approach. It would undermine the authority of the governors. Governors represent the members, the majority are elected by the members, and they should be allowed to get on and fulfil their responsibilities.
Securing a majority vote by members would also be very expensive. Many foundation trusts have several thousand members. Do we really want scarce NHS resources being spent on polling members about any increases to non-NHS income? I gently ask noble Lords opposite to think again about that.
Finally, Amendment 220C proposes that Monitor should be required to approve any increases to private patient caps beyond 5 per cent. My objection to that is that it would undermine foundation trusts’ autonomy to manage themselves. Directors and governors are better placed than Monitor to decide what is best for their organisation. Monitor’s involvement could also dissuade foundation trusts from pursuing innovative approaches if they are required to go through an external assessment and, in effect, a second approval process.
The central point is this: Part 4 has been built on the experience of what foundation trusts know will work. It represents the opportunity to realise what value foundation trusts can bring to the NHS. It will enable them to develop as responsive, transparent, autonomous and accountable bodies. Removal of the private patient income cap is about foundation trusts making the most of the opportunities they have to earn additional income for investment in the NHS. It is precisely why many NHS leaders and clinicians wrote an open letter to this House urging support to remove the cap. I hope that what I have said will reassure noble Lords that we have the right checks and balances in place while also giving foundation trusts the freedom that they need and have asked for. I also hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Thornton
I thank the Minister for those remarks. I might be able to make him happy at least in one or two respects. This has been an interesting and useful debate, but I would like to start by making two comments. The first is about the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Marks. I know that he and his colleagues have been frustrated about the interpretation that has been put on the 49 per cent. The noble Lord spoke about that being there to mitigate risks. The only point that I would make to him and his colleagues is that the opportunity to mitigate those risks was there earlier this week, and they did not take it.
I would also like to apologise to colleagues on the Cross Benches if they have found the adversarial style in this part of the Bill unhelpful. On these Benches, it partly stems from our very grave disappointment that we have not managed on Report to protect the NHS in the way that we felt was necessary. I am afraid that those arguments are political arguments and the arguments that we have had to have. I put that on the record. I do not apologise for the fact that they have been political, but I apologise to my colleagues that sometimes they have not been entirely comfortable with that.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I refer to my chairmanship of a foundation trust. From the opposition Benches, we very much support this amendment and wish to reinforce the importance of education and training.
It is right that we should emphasise the importance of NHS foundation trusts recognising their responsibilities in relation to education and training. It is equally important that they have an influence over the architecture for education and training. As the noble Earl will know, there are going to be local boards responsible for commissioning the education and training of professional people. It is very important that the people who run hospitals should be very much involved in the selection of students and ensuring that the curriculum is effective. The noble Earl will know that the Future Forum paper chaired by the chief executive of University Hospitals Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust emphasised the importance of looking at these matters.
We will be debating the quality of nursing next week, but there is no doubt that there is a real problem with public perception of the quality of nursing in particular, and issues to do with nutrition and basic nursing skills. I am convinced that there is a real problem that the universities that train our nurses, in the end, are much more focused on academic practice, because that is what universities do. I am anxious that no one has been able to put their finger on the solution. One way of improving the quality is to involve the foundation trusts much more in these matters. My noble friend’s amendment is very helpful in that respect.
Earl Howe
My Lords, as noble Lords will know, we have had a number of earlier discussions about education and training and I welcome this new opportunity to return to the subject. As the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, is aware, we are putting in place what we see as a strong national system for education and training, with a strengthened focus on quality outcomes.
In the Bill we have introduced a clear duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that such a system is in place. We are now making good progress in establishing Health Education England and the local education and training boards. We are acutely aware of the importance of a safe transition to the new system. We are proceeding with care and at a sensible pace to ensure that the new system is fully up and running by April 2013.
We have also introduced amendments to strengthen links with the wider system. Our Amendments 61 and 104, which were accepted in an earlier debate, place duties on the board and on clinical commissioning groups to have regard to the need to promote education and training. They are designed to ensure that commissioners of NHS services consider the planning, commissioning and delivery of education and training when carrying out their functions.
We also accepted an amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, to strengthen co-operation among providers of NHS-funded services, which would place a duty on commissioners to ensure that any person providing services as part of the health service would have to co-operate with the Secretary of State in the discharge of his education and training duty, or with any special health authority discharging that duty—that is, Health Education England. This aims to ensure that providers, too, play an active role in education and training.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, spoke with his customary authority on this subject and I agree with what he said. I particularly agree that employers best understand the workforce they employ and the kind of workforce they want to employ. They also understand the need to link service planning and workforce planning. They are able to focus on the whole workforce and to recognise the levels of contact with patients and service users, and the varying local needs. Evidence from other sectors and feedback from providers has been clear that in order to deliver successful and responsive world-class services, employers need to have clear ownership and involvement in the education and training and planning of their workforce. I am entirely at one with the noble Lord on that.
Employers have welcomed our plans for education and training. They believe that this approach should provide real opportunities so that healthcare providers have the right incentives to secure the skills that they wish to have, invest in training and innovate to improve the quality of services that they provide. They welcome the opportunity to have the incentives to align service, financial and workforce planning, and to have greater flexibility to respond to the strategic commissioning intentions of the NHS Commissioning Board and clinical commissioning groups.
The NHS Confederation, NHS Employers, Foundation Trust Network and the Association of UK University Hospitals all support a system that provides greater accountability for employers. Strategic health authorities are working with employers to support them in developing these local partnerships so that they can take full responsibility for workforce planning, education and training.
I hope that that is of reassurance to the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg. What is happening on the ground almost pre-empts the speech he so articulately made. We are rapidly moving towards the kind of system to which he and other noble Lords aspire. Having secured the amendments that are already in the Bill, we do not believe that it is necessary to build in any more. On the strength of what I have said, I hope that the noble Lord will feel comfortable in withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, I am well aware of the lengths to which the Government have gone to support education and training, for which I am truly grateful. I am also aware that earlier amendments might appear to have covered the points that I raised about the need for foundation trusts: there is a particular recommendation for them. I am a little disappointed that my amendment cannot be accepted but I understand the reasoning. The foundation trusts are key providers and, therefore, it should be clear to them that they have this responsibility. I know that they are willing providers of education and training but it should be in the Bill. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“( ) for “The” substitute “An”,”
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I did not want to leap on the noble Lord, Lord Warner, because that would do him an injury, but I wanted to assure him that the amendment does not affect his trotting off to the chap down at Waterloo station. He can buy whatever private patient care he likes, wherever and whenever he likes—
Baroness Northover
I remind my noble friend that he can reply on his amendment at the end. I am sorry to keep on intervening on my noble friends in defence of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, who wanted to continue his argument, as he did. My noble friend has the opportunity to respond at the end.
Baroness Murphy
I have concerns similar to those of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, but this amendment is different from those that I have seen floating around from the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. I also have questions, but we must be very clear about what we mean by “queue-jumping”. If an NHS patient goes to an ordinary NHS hospital consultant and is told that they need an operation, it is completely legitimate for them then to ask to go privately and pay for the operation. That is, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said, enshrined in the NHS Act of 1948, and completely legitimate. Queue-jumping is when a patient sees a private consultant who then inserts the patient into the NHS list ahead of other NHS patients. That is what we want to avoid, and it is already completely illegal and highly frowned on. Most hospitals do what they can to exclude it, but I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, that it goes on, and we know that it does. It is an unpleasant practice and should be stamped out, but I do not know whether this amendment does that.
As the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, reminded us, the conundrum of private units in NHS hospitals must be borne in mind. That may be the most constructive way in which to ensure that NHS consultants are available to NHS patients when they need to be, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said. But often private patients have operations that go wrong—and then, if there are two patients in need of an NHS intensive care bed, the patient who takes priority is the person with the clinical need. It is very much the same as someone on a battlefield. It does not matter whether it is an enemy soldier or a domestic soldier.
Earl Howe
My Lords, before I address the amendments in the name of my noble friend, I would like to come back to some of the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. She mentioned one of the most pernicious myths about the Bill. The paper that she quotes is not just factually inaccurate on a large scale but is also, frankly, scaremongering. As she herself knows, the Bill does not extend current arrangements for charging; indeed, the Government have committed to introducing no new charges for healthcare during this Parliament. I felt that I had to make that abundantly clear. I know that the noble Baroness realises that that is the case but it is important for the world out there to understand what the Bill does and does not do.
I agree completely with the sentiments behind the amendment that my noble friend has tabled. Patients’ access to essential clinical care and treatment should be on the basis of clinical need, not their ability to pay. That has been a fundamental principle of the NHS since its inception, and we fully support that. I understand that there is some concern that private healthcare by NHS providers might represent a better deal for patients in need of essential treatment. However, I hope that I can convince my noble friend and other noble Lords that there are already adequate safeguards in place, because that is what I firmly believe.
First, I shall cover the issue from the perspective of clinicians—I shall move on to hospital management in a moment. Ethically and professionally, clinicians are required to treat all their patients to the same standard and should not discriminate in any way. It would be wrong to suggest that the vast majority who provide an excellent standard of care would not do so, and I am sure that my noble friend would never suggest that. The General Medical Council’s Good Medical Practice states that the overriding duties for doctors include making the care of patients a doctor’s first concern and never discriminating unfairly against patients or colleagues. The Government also have in place a robust system of regulation on the quality of services. The Bill strengthens that system and makes it more accountable.
Secondly, Good Medical Practice ensures equality of access. It requires all doctors to treat their patients on the basis of clinical priority and to the same standard. Therefore, if a doctor did not treat a patient on the basis of clinical priority or was treating a private patient to a better clinical service, they could be in breach of the principles set out by the GMC and could be putting their registration at risk. In addition, the terms and conditions of service in NHS consultants’ contracts make it clear they are responsible for ensuring that their private work,
“does not result in detriment of NHS patients or services”.
That principle was reiterated in the department’s guidance on NHS patients who wish to pay for additional private care alongside their NHS treatment, which was published by the previous Government following a review by Professor Sir Mike Richards in 2008. The guidance makes it very clear that patients who choose to pay for additional private treatment,
“should not be put at any advantage or disadvantage in relation to the NHS care they receive. They are entitled to NHS services on exactly the same basis of clinical need as any other patient”.
The NHS consultant contract also binds them into adhering to the principles set out in a code of conduct for private practice. These are recommended standards of practice for NHS consultants published by the department. This says that,
“the provision of services for private patients should not prejudice the interests of NHS patients or disrupt NHS services”,
and that,
“with the exception of emergency care, agreed NHS commitments should take precedence over private work”.
It is important to note the point about NHS commitments taking precedence over private work. I strongly believe that professional regulation through the General Medical Council combined with guidance from the Department of Health is the best way to ensure equality of access for patients. It allows regulators to respond to changing circumstances and practice without departing form the central principle involved.
Putting the amendment into statute would risk endless arguments about what is and is not essential care and treatment. Perversely, it could prevent a foundation trust giving preferential treatment to its NHS patients because of the amendment’s reference to equality. The primary purpose of a foundation trust is to provide NHS services. A foundation trust may want to prioritise NHS patients where there is equal clinical need. The amendment might well prevent that; at the very least, it would create legal ambiguity and confusion.
Some noble Lords have voiced concerns that a foundation trust might pressurise its consultants into prioritising private healthcare ahead of its NHS patients. There are safeguards to prevent that as well. First, foundation trusts have a public service ethos; they are governed by the public and by NHS staff. They have a principal legal purpose to treat NHS patients. Secondly, the NHS Commissioning Board and clinical commissioning groups would be responsible for ensuring that NHS patients continued to be offered prompt and high-quality care. With regard to managers, my noble friend will wish to know that we have already commissioned the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence to produce standards of conduct and competence for senior NHS leaders, and these are currently the subject of public consultation.
I remind noble Lords of the points that we debated earlier. If there appeared to be a trend or a significant increase in the level of a trust’s private income, not only would that be picked up by the governors but it would be seen by Monitor, which will have extensive powers to direct foundation trusts through the licence. Foundation trusts will also be required to explain in their annual reports what the impact will be of their non-NHS income on NHS services. One might say that there is going to be no hiding place in this regard.
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked earlier about GPs channelling patients to NHS private patient units. GPs’ responsibility is to ensure the best care for their patients. They would have nothing to gain from trying to collude with foundation trust managers and commissions to increase a foundation trust’s private income. More to the point, they would risk being reported to the GMC for not serving their patients’ interests. If the noble Lord’s point is that clinical commissioning groups may try to do this, then it would clearly be unethical and would give grounds for the commissioning board to intervene. I hope that that provides the noble Lord with reassurance on that point.
I make a further point to my noble friend around any possible incentive that trust management might have to channel patients into a private wing, a concern raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar. The Bill will establish a transparent and legally enforceable pricing system that will reward foundation trusts for treating NHS patients. In other words, money will genuinely follow the patient, and foundation trusts will be paid a fair price for treating complex cases. The current system has not always achieved these simple aims. An independent report into the current system published last month makes this clear; I have placed a copy of that report in the Library of the House for noble Lords who are interested. As the report makes clear, although foundation trusts should have been paid for every NHS patient treated, this has not always been happening. There have been unacceptable levels of cross-subsidy that have meant that the prices payable for complex cases have sometimes been woefully inadequate. One important facet of the reassurance that I can give my noble friend is that the pricing system proposed under the Bill will address those problems and ensure that foundation trust managers have the right incentives and rewards for prioritising NHS patients.
For some—although not, I think, for my noble friend—the amendment has been prompted by fears around the consequences of the private patient income cap for foundation trusts being removed; again, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, voiced that fear. I suggest to him that those fears are misplaced. It is not, to my mind, a valid argument to suggest that removing the cap, a restriction that does not apply to NHS trusts, would lead to foundation trusts ignoring NHS patients as their prime concern and responsibility. Foundation trusts are the only NHS organisations which have never been subject to a cap on the amount of private income that they can earn. However, some foundation trusts can and do earn high levels of private patient income. There are also some NHS trusts which earn private incomes well in excess of many foundation trusts. There is no evidence that these NHS providers have ignored NHS patients as their main responsibility. The NHS constitution guarantees fair access to NHS treatment. The Government are putting in place a quality improvement framework that will improve outcomes for patients. Therefore, there is no scope for NHS patients to be harmed by private provision. Indeed, I say again that the extra income that the NHS would earn through the lifting of the private patient income cap would help to provide better quality care for all in the future.
I hope that my noble friend will accept that he and I are on the same page—on the same side—on this question. The difference between us lies in how to tackle it. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, was right to remind us, privately funded and NHS healthcare have always co-existed in NHS hospitals. Governments of all parties have preferred to use professional regulation rather than statute to ensure equality of treatment. I am sure that that is right. It is unnecessary and, I think, a mistake to use primary legislation to establish the same principles. Of course, over the length of time for which the NHS has been in existence, professional regulation has, on the whole, been an effective safeguard of equality of access. On that basis, I hope that my noble friend will feel genuinely reassured and able to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
Before the Minister sits down, I seek clarification. It is extremely reassuring to hear about the code of conduct that will be coming through for managers. I seek reassurance that the code of conduct will cover managers at every level. While there is clarity over consultants, consultants’ contracts and the GMC guidance which we have discussed at length, there are many others in the healthcare team who are not managerially answerable to the consultants. They are managerially answerable in other streams. There needs to be consistency across all those aspects of management. That includes other professional managers such as nurse managers, allied healthcare professional managers and so on, not just those who are caught, perhaps, by the council guidance because they are managers coming from a non-healthcare background. We were seeking that consistency of conduct with the amendment. I hope that the Minister can give me reassurance.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I first thank the seven Peers who added their voices to the amendment. I thank my noble friend the Minister for an extremely thoughtful and comprehensive reply. None the less, it would be dishonest of me to say that he convinced me on all counts. It is perhaps asking too much on such a complicated business to have full satisfaction.
The one thing that I am bound to say is that the Minister’s interpretation of these various provisions in the various codes is different from mine. I am a lawyer extremely long in the tooth and I do not think that the provisions that he quoted, although they look helpful on the face of it, actually work in practice. That is evidenced by the total absence of any disciplinary measures—ever, as far as I can see—against doctors acting improperly in relation to queue-jumping. However, that is in the past.
I must quickly answer questions raised of me by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Ribeiro. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, is the easiest to answer: the amendment does not cover the existing NHS trusts, only the NHS foundation trusts. However, I think that the NHS trusts are going to be out of existence in a couple of years’ time. I saved the House by not including that; I would have had it at Third Reading if necessary. As to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, he can go to his private knacker any day, any place, any time and pay what he likes. To the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, the answer is that, if you are having private treatment within an NHS hospital, the amendment would prevail, had it passed; namely, you could not then barge the queue because you were a private patient in respect of essential clinical care. It really is as simple as that.
I do not get the sense from the House that noble Lords want a Division on this matter. I do get the sense that they are impressed by what the Minister said, particularly in relation to the management code. That could make a very big difference. The only thing that I ask my noble friend the Minister—if he is with me—is that he just keeps an eye on the issue at the heart of this amendment and the debate, and, in the new regime that we are ushering in, on the concerns behind this amendment, shared by many in the country.
Earl Howe
Before my noble friend withdraws the amendment, I give him that reassurance. The NHS constitution will be monitored at every level in the system, from the Secretary of State downwards, as will the provisions within relating to access to healthcare for NHS patients. Of course, if there is any sign that that pledge in the constitution is being jeopardised in any way, appropriate action will of course be taken.
I am told that I should clarify what I said in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, about to whom manager training will apply. It will apply to “leaders across the NHS”—it says here. It will primarily be aimed at very senior managers with a cascade of good practice down to more junior levels.
“( ) If, at any time before section 8 comes into force, Monitor obtains the approval of the NHS Commissioning Board Authority to publish guidance under section 65DA(4)(c) or (5) of the National Health Service Act 2006, that approval is to be treated for the purposes of subsection (6)(b) of that section as approval obtained from the National Health Service Commissioning Board.”
Baroness Wheeler
My Lords, with an additional 68 government amendments tabled at the end of last week on the issue of HealthWatch England and the now much altered healthwatch organisations, it is somewhat of a challenge to work out exactly what the Government want from HealthWatch England and local healthwatch organisations. Why has not the Government’s time since Committee stage been spent on trying to address the issues and concerns raised by noble Lords which would ensure that HealthWatch England and local healthwatch organisations have the real status and authority to do the job that we all recognise is required of them? Instead they have concentrated on compiling one of the most confusing additional sets of amendments that we have seen on this Bill, which will seriously undermine the ability of both the national and local organisations to act as an effective and robust watchdog for patients and the public.
The new local arrangements for healthwatch organisations provide a plethora of contradictions and confusions and we shall discuss those under a later group. Sadly, none of that addresses the continuing concern across the House and among key patients’ groups and organisations about the HealthWatch-CQC relationship. Fortunately, Amendment 223A, from the noble Lord, Lord Patel, my noble friends Lord Harris, Lord Whitty and myself does. Those noble Lords have all made a coherent and powerful case for the amendment and for ensuring that HealthWatch England is independent. The amendment provides for a body corporate, with clear primary duties to represent the interests of patients and users of the National Health Service and of social care services, independent of any provider or regulator of those services. As well as powers to provide information and advice on the views of patients and standards of quality of care, the amendment provides HealthWatch England with powers to investigate complaints made by or on behalf of a patient or user of a local healthwatch organisation and to raise and investigate complaints relating to wider issues affecting patients or users in general.
The Government have said that they want to see HealthWatch England with genuine operational independence from CQC. However, attempts to do that by, for example, providing the majority membership of HealthWatch members on the HealthWatch board, or reassurances after the last debate in Committee in terms of HealthWatch England being able to speak out publicly in certain circumstances, even if their views conflict with its host body or government, miss the point. None of these small steps gives the unequivocal reassurance of independence that a robust patients’ watchdog, acting in the interests of patients, must have. In the new market-dominated system that we will soon have, independence and a collective voice for patients is more vital than ever. In the end, it will come back to how the proposed measures will play out in practice and how conflicts of interest between HealthWatch England and the CQC, or indeed healthwatch organisations in the local authority, will be dealt with.
Most important of all is the issue of public perception, understanding and confidence in the independence of HealthWatch. It is important that HealthWatch is seen to be credible and truly independent, able to challenge and to scrutinise the work and decisions of the regulators, both CQC and Monitor. The niceties of whether there is a majority of HealthWatch members on the board, whether they can combine or exchange data and whether they are part of an organisation that the Secretary of State keeps under review will escape a patient, carer or representative who, for example, makes a complaint about how CQC has investigated care in a residential home, only to find that the body investigating the complaint or championing improved quality of care on behalf of patients is a committee of the CQC itself.
I hope that the noble Baroness will address these concerns: in particular, points that were repeatedly made about how the culture clash between healthwatch and the CQC will be addressed and managed; how we will stop CQC—in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Patel—“suffocating” HealthWatch England; how the potential serious conflict of interest will be dealt with; and how public faith, trust and confidence in healthwatch can be achieved under the relationship with the CQC, particularly in light of that body’s major organisation and resource problems so starkly highlighted in the Department of Health’s recent CQC performance and capability review.
In the debate on the duty of candour, the Minister referred to the CQC as an organisation that was remote from patients. We need an independent HealthWatch England and we need local healthwatch bodies that everyone can rely on to be genuine patient representatives. I am afraid that the Bill gives us neither.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, this has been another excellent debate. I listened very carefully—as I did before—to the views expressed. Overall, there is clearly complete agreement on all sides of the House that the voice of patients and the public should be at the heart of the NHS. As the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Harris, and the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and others indicated, the history of how previous Governments tried to implement this is tortuous. The recent past has borne witness to a number of attempts to do it, and noble Lords referred to some of the problems. No attempt—not even Community Health Councils—managed to fulfil the worthy intentions of its architects, and we went from one to another.
As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, recognised—I appreciate his words—we seek here to take the strengths from past attempts, build on them and ameliorate the weaknesses as we develop our proposals for HealthWatch England. In the light of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, emphasised, it is worth remembering one of these previous attempts: the Commission for Patient and Public Involvement in Health. It was established in July 2003 and operated nationally and regionally, following regional government boundaries. Within five years it had been abolished after being seen to lack clout, to be too bureaucratic and too top-down for the public and those on the ground. Perhaps I may again remind the House of the judgment from the Health Select Committee’s 2007 Report into Patient and Public Involvement in the NHS, which stated:
“The evidence we received was overwhelmingly critical of the Commission”.
We are convinced that trying to recreate the commission is not the best way forward, and instead propose that HealthWatch England should be a statutory committee hosted—that was a very good description from the noble Lord, Lord Patel—by the CQC, which is a far more viable option.
I am well aware that this proposal has met with concern.
Baroness Northover
I will finish and then I will respond to the noble Lord if I need to. I am well aware that this proposal has met with concern from some quarters. I will explain why we are proposing this arrangement and why we do not feel that the case for having a separate body is stronger.
HealthWatch England will have clout. It will have a seat at the top table, taking centre stage in providing advice on patient and public views to the CQC, Monitor, English local authorities and the Secretary of State for Health. Noble Lords were right to say that Healthwatch England must influence all these bodies; that will be its responsibility. My noble friend Lady Jolly, too, made that clear. Each of these persons or bodies will have a duty to respond to the advice. Through local healthwatch, HealthWatch England will be closely linked to the views of people expressing views about the services that most directly impact on their lives. Our proposals for HealthWatch England will place it at the heart of the system—not at the top, divorced from the views of local people, as CPPIH turned out to be.
As a committee of CQC, HealthWatch England will be able to draw on the best of CQC’s evidence base on quality and standards of care. The enthusiasm with which CQC wishes to learn via healthwatch is instructive. It will be helpful to CQC to have information coming from local healthwatch and HealthWatch England to CQC to alert it to problems such as those at Winterbourne View. This will give HealthWatch England a prominent position within a CQC that will have a strengthened role in assuring the safety and quality of health and adult social care services, and a strengthened focus on the concerns of health and social care consumers. This will ensure that from the outset HealthWatch England will have a greater presence and ability to influence than would a body established from scratch.
The Bill already contains significant safeguards to ensure that HealthWatch England will be able to operate effectively in that situation. For example, it will provide advice to a wide range of organisations. I have just mentioned central national organisations and local authorities. However, we listened carefully to concerns expressed in Committee about possible conflicts of interest between the CQC and HealthWatch England. This issue was raised again today. We therefore welcome Amendment 228, tabled by my noble friends Lady Cumberlege and Lady Jolly. It places duties on CQC and HealthWatch England to have regard to guidance from the Secretary of State about managing conflicts between these bodies. This is a sensible suggestion, and we are happy to support the amendment.
While acting independently, HealthWatch England must of course be accountable. Government Amendment 229 places a duty on it to send all local healthwatch organisations a copy of its annual report. It was the noble Lord, Lord Harris, who thought that this was a good idea and tabled an amendment to this effect in Committee. We agreed that it would help to secure the intended wide transparency and communication between HealthWatch England and local healthwatch. I am grateful to the noble Lord for flagging that up and suggesting the idea.
It is also important that local healthwatch—
Baroness Northover
No, I am going to continue, and if there are things that need to be dealt with at the end, I shall deal with them. It is also important that local healthwatch is able not only to provide information to HealthWatch England but to influence HealthWatch England’s actions on matters raised locally that may have national importance. Various noble Lords made that point and they were quite right. We therefore welcome, and will support, the amendments of my noble friend Lady Tyler.
Lord Warner
Are we allowed under the Standing Orders to hear the question of the noble Lord, Lord Harris? I would very much like to know what his point is.
Baroness Northover
If I wish to continue with the thrust of my argument—as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said in the previous debate—I can do so. At the moment it is better if I lay out my argument. If there are points of clarification that noble Lords want an answer on, I will be very happy to give way when I have completed my argument.
We welcome and support—
Baroness Jay of Paddington
My Lords, I was not present when the noble Baroness had an exchange with the noble Lord, Lord Warner, on this matter. However, I have been in the House for 20 years and it is my widespread experience that of course the Minister is right to say that she must complete her argument. However, she has spoken for some minutes since the first intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and her argument has been well made.
Baroness Northover
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, wished to continue his argument against my noble friend Lord Phillips, and he did continue his argument.
Government Amendment 226ZG will enable HealthWatch England—
Lord Warner
May I just correct the noble Baroness? I actually anticipated that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, was going to jump up. I did not stop him jumping up. He chose to withdraw.
Baroness Rawlings
I shall just read from the Companion:
“A member of the House who is speaking may be interrupted with a brief question for clarification. Giving way accords with the traditions and customary courtesy of the House. It is, however, recognised that a member may justifiably refuse to give way, for instance, in the middle of an argument, or to repeated interruption, or in time-limited proceedings when time is short. Lengthy or frequent interventions should not be made, even with the consent of the member speaking”.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, it may help the House if I continue, but I am very happy to give way to noble Lords who wish to ask questions once I have gone through the various elements.
Government Amendment 226ZG will enable HealthWatch England to make recommendations of a general nature to local authorities about the making of arrangements for local healthwatch organisations and, where HealthWatch England is of the opinion that local healthwatch organisations’ activities are not being carried out properly, to draw this to the attention of the local authority.
Amendment 226A, tabled by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, would place a duty—I see Companions spinning all around the House, so while noble Lords are studying that—
Lord Harris of Haringey
I want to ask a question, and I think the Minister has moved on to another point.
Baroness Northover
I am very happy to take noble Lords’ questions completely out of order, if need be, at the end if I have not addressed them.
Amendment 226A would place a duty on local healthwatch organisations to have regard to any advice or assistance provided by HealthWatch England under new Section 45A(2). We believe that this is too prescriptive. While we anticipate that local healthwatch organisations will welcome advice and assistance from HealthWatch England, a blanket requirement to have regard to the advice and assistance does not seem appropriate.
The Government very much agree that it is very important to get the membership of HealthWatch England right, the better to ensure its independence, and I thank noble Lords for their contributions on this issue. The Bill already gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations about the appointment of members, and it is a power that we intend to use. In Committee, we said that we would take away and consider the suggestions put forward by noble Lords. We have heard what was said and have undertaken a public consultation on these regulations. Noble Lords have flagged up that a number of noble Lords are interested in local elections from local healthwatch organisations to HealthWatch England, and that is one of the issues flagged up in that consultation.
The consultation closed on 2 March, and the responses are now being analysed. Government Amendments 225 and 226—I thank my noble friend Lady Cumberlege for adding her name to Amendment 226—would ensure that regulations are able to make adequate and appropriate provision about HealthWatch England’s membership, including procedures for appointing members. It would also ensure that the regulations must require that the majority of members cannot be members of the CQC.
I now turn to aspects of the amendments relating to specific functions of HealthWatch England. It is interesting that some of these have not been flagged in the debate. Amendment 223A includes elements on patients’ complaints, and I think it is important for noble Lords to be aware of some of the elements in it. I would point out that statutory mechanisms have been in place for the investigation of NHS and adult social care complaints for a number of years, and a great deal has recently been done to improve these arrangements.
In 2009, the previous Government—and I give credit to them—following considerable public consultation, introduced new complaints arrangements for the NHS and adult social care. These reforms placed a greater focus on the outcome of the complaint and on speeding up the process. Importantly, they placed emphasis on resolving complaints at local level with recourse to the independent Health Service Ombudsman, if appropriate, so that organisations were better able to learn from their mistakes and to use the information to improve future service delivery. While there is room for improvement in the local handling of complaints, we support the reforms put in place by the previous Government, and it remains this Government’s view that complaints are best dealt with initially at local level. We wish to build upon these solid foundations. However, it is extremely important that the information that can be gathered from people’s experience is fed in and that an individual complaint is taken forward in a largely satisfactory way.
The relevant part of Amendment 223A, which deals with complaints, could, we believe, fundamentally change the nature of HealthWatch, compromise its primary role of consumer champion, lead to confusion among service users, duplicate current arrangements and impact adversely upon the role of the Health Service Ombudsman.
The noble Lord, Lord Patel, laid out extremely clearly what HealthWatch England needs to do. It is extremely important that it is recognised as a very important body in the new structure and that it has input from practical experience. The noble Lord is quite right that information needs to come up from local level to national level and that it needs to feed in at every point of the new architecture. HealthWatch England needs to be part of what drives up standards, and it is different from the regulator. Many noble Lords emphasised that. It is indeed the voice of the people. All, including the Secretary of State, have to listen to HealthWatch England, so it has a huge and important job. The noble Lord is quite right. It will not be buried in the CQC. Hosting is a very good way of describing its situation. It does not have to spend time and effort on back-office functions as CPPIH had to.
How Healthwatch England will be made up, its relationship to local HealthWatch and elections will be dealt with through regulations that will be informed by the consultation to which I have referred.
I now turn to the noble Lord, Lord Harris—
Lord Goldsmith
When will we know when the noble Baroness has reached the end of the argument so that we can hear the question that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, wants to ask? I am worried that the noble Baroness thinks that argument means speech. That has never been my interpretation or my practice at the Dispatch Box.
Baroness Northover
I am very happy to indicate when I think I have finished. I now come to answer some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, or to address them at least. He may feel that I have not adequately answered them and, after that, he might like to hop up.
Baroness Northover
I bear in mind a long history with the noble Lord, Lord Harris, that goes back quite a way and includes his very complimentary remarks when I gave my maiden speech in your Lordships’ House. Noble Lords might want to look at them.
Both HealthWatch England and local healthwatch have statutory forms—perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Harris, might wish to hear this.
Baroness Northover
I am so glad. Both have statutory forms and functions so they cannot simply disappear in the way that he fears. I pay credit to him for all his work in this area over many years.
It was a shame that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, was not at the meeting yesterday to which the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, has referred. With his formidable local government experience, I am quite surprised that he does not welcome the local authority involvement in the arrangements that we are putting forward. Had he been there yesterday, he would have heard the enthusiasm of the LGA, the chief executive of East Sussex County Council and others for their new involvement in health services. They are extremely keen to be best informed by flourishing local healthwatches. As they take on their new task, they see having that information as very important.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, asked about the funding formula. Funding for local healthwatch will continue in a very similar fashion to LINks. It will be allocated primarily through the formula-based grant. Like LINks, this funding will not be ring-fenced, but each local authority’s allocation through the formula-based grants will be publicly available. I hope that that is of help to him. In addition, local healthwatch will receive additional funding through the DH learning disabilities and NHS reform grant.
I have various other responses to various other people, but perhaps the noble Lord wishes to put a question to me.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am enormously grateful to the noble Baroness. She has answered some of the questions that I put. However, the question I wanted to ask related to her remarks about 15 minutes ago, when her argument seemed to be that this amendment recreated the former Commission for Patient and Public Involvement in Health. Does she acknowledge that this is a completely different structure, because it would be derived from the bottom up, with the support of local healthwatch organisations? What is more, it would not have to be encumbered by the bureaucracy that the Department of Health formerly imposed on that commission. It is a completely different structure.
Baroness Northover
I hear what the noble Lord says, but if he remembers the relationship and the aims of CPPIH, a lot of them echo the arguments that he has been making about such a structure. We may simply have to differ. The Government are very keen to have a structure that is up and running immediately, linking to, plugged into and influencing the national bodies that it needs to, and that it is not spending its time on its central structure. That is why this arrangement has been sought and that is the philosophy behind it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, raised a number of issues, some of which will be considered in the next grouping. Perhaps I could come back to them then so that I do not take too long. I am astonished and delighted to see so many noble Lords who are interested in what I have to say on this.
My noble friend Lady Jolly asked about information-gathering, and she is absolutely right. In many ways this bears out how the CQC is very useful in this regard. By being hosted within the CQC, HealthWatch England will gain support from CQC expertise on the best methods of gathering and making the most of intelligence from local healthwatch. As part of HealthWatch England’s set-up plan, the CQC has dedicated resources to identify and develop the system that will support information flow between HealthWatch England and local healthwatch. I take on board very strongly what she said about the need for that information to be produced in a form that can be generalised and applied nationally, and that there are not lots of disparate bits of information that cannot be put together.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked again about campaigning. I said in Committee that HealthWatch England and local healthwatch can campaign. I followed that up with a letter confirming that, which I hope he got—but perhaps he did not—and I reiterate it here. I hope that that is of help to the noble Lord.
Baroness Northover
In response to the noble and learned Baroness, if I was in any way discourteous, I apologise but I hope that I gave the opportunity at the end for anybody who had further questions please to put them to me.
Lord Patel
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her response. I think that the conversation, or lack of it, was unfortunate because not only did it not allow people to put their questions at the correct time, it probably interrupted the noble Baroness’s flow of speech and thoughts. Having said that, I am flattered by her compliments on what I had to say. However, she did not address the fundamental point when I speak for those who are concerned about public and patient involvement. She has said that the statute provides that HealthWatch England will be a committee. That is quite different from a statute which provides that HealthWatch England will be independent. Again, there is a vast difference. Also, in terms of its functions, there is nothing in the statute that says that HealthWatch England will have the power to ask for or demand information in the interests of patients and the public in order to demonstrate that the quality of care provided is not adequate. Although the statute recognises that HealthWatch England will have strong relationships with Monitor, the Commissioning Board and so on, it will not have the power in statute to demand that independently. It has the power in statute to work through the CQC to ask for that. That is what concerns people outside. Indeed, while listening to the debate I was getting e-mails saying, “This is not what we asked for and it is not what we want. This does not give us confidence that we will have the necessary authority to respond”.
The one lone voice in the wilderness, although it might have been loud, came from the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. She suggested that this is ideal because of one very good chief executive in mid-Sussex. I wish we could clone her. For every one that is successful there will be 10 failures, and it is those failures which a good, powerful and independent HealthWatch England would be able to address when a local healthwatch organisation fails because the chief executive is not being supportive.
There are many issues here. If we are serious about giving the public and patients a strong voice, the Government must recognise that they need strong support and that they need it for a long time. Although I have not been associated with patient and public organisations in England, I have been involved with them on three different occasions. In fact, I set up one of them. I should say to the Minister that I thought I did a brilliant job. I gave it all the powers one could possibly give in terms of setting standards, inspecting hospitals, writing reports and criticising every service. It worked well, but it fell down because its strong support was withdrawn. It is important to recognise that if we are serious about giving patients and the public a strong voice, we need to give them status. We should not treat them like juveniles who do not understand the issues. They should be treated with the respect they deserve and be given strong support.
Unless the Minister is about to tell me that suddenly she is hearing a different message and that we can have a further conversation and another opportunity to look at this, I am afraid that, for those outside who are concerned about this, I will have to seek the opinion of the House.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, we have great sympathy with Amendments 227 and 233. It is indeed vital that the voice of children is sought throughout the system and we agree that HealthWatch has a key role to play in this at both national and local levels. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, for the important points to which she and others drew attention. As we know, the noble Baroness has a long record of promoting the rights of children.
We are aware that some LINks have, as the noble Baronesses, Lady Massey and Lady Finlay, said, struggled to engage fully with children and certain groups of adults. It is very important that local healthwatch learns from that and is clear about the importance of engaging with children and young people. However, we do not feel that we should specify particular sections of the population in the Bill, although local healthwatch and HealthWatch England need to seek out views, especially of those who are hard to reach.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, spoke about guidance on engagement with children for local healthwatch. I can assure her that professionals and service users’ representatives are, through the Children and Young People’s Health Outcomes Forum, currently working with the Department of Health to develop a children and young people’s health outcomes strategy and to ensure that detailed design and development work is done with children and young people in mind. This includes HealthWatch. I can confirm that five local healthwatch pathfinders include a focus on children and young people. We hope to learn from that and that other local healthwatch organisations will learn from their experience. HealthWatch England will be able to use the work of the children and young people’s health outcomes strategy, the experience of the pathfinders and wider development work to develop advice and assistance to local healthwatch organisations on effective engagement with children, young people and their families.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, also suggested that we conduct a review of how HealthWatch England and local healthwatch involve children in their work. That is a very valuable idea. We fully agree that we should look at reviewing this, perhaps after three years of operation, to see how effectively HealthWatch England and local healthwatch have involved children and other hard-to-reach groups in their work.
The noble Baroness also suggested having a champion for children within HealthWatch England to drive forward children’s engagement. I hope I have reassured her that involving children will be a priority for HealthWatch England and local healthwatch. However, we believe that it would not be appropriate to have a children’s champion or, indeed, a specific representative for any patient group.
In the next group of amendments we will look at a definition of “people” that came from my noble friend Lady Jolly. That rather bears out what many noble Lords have said about making sure that we do not have just a narrow focus but recognise that we must not overlook groups such as children or hard-to-reach adults which have not necessarily had their voices heard in the past.
I was asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, whether HealthWatch will have the resources to involve children fully. Yes, it will. Representing people of all ages will be a core function of HealthWatch and will be resourced at a level to ensure that it can fulfil its duties and functions. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, spoke strongly about how important it is to involve children and young adults, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and others. I very much agree and feel that HealthWatch offers great potential to improve involvement in this area. Throughout everything that we are doing we are seeking to join up and integrate in the important way that she flagged up in her comments.
Although I cannot take forward the idea of the champion, nevertheless we understand and take on board the other suggestions that the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, has made. We are keen that HealthWatch England and local healthwatch groups reach out to a number of groups whose voices have not necessarily been heard in the past. Even if the noble Baroness is slightly disappointed with that response, I hope that with these other reassurances she will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
Before the noble Baroness sits down, does she recognise that the legal status of children differs from that of adults? That is why they do not fall into the same category as many other vulnerable groups. Children do not reach the age of majority until they are 18, although they can consent to some things at 16. Therefore, they are always dependent on a responsible adult to speak for them or to open the door for them, as it were. They cannot form a group in the way that others in the population can to speak up for their rights and what they need. Will the noble Baroness reassure us that the Government recognise that the legal status of children differs from that of adults, and that if these amendments are not to be accepted, careful consideration will be given as to how that can be made explicit in the Bill before it completes its passage?
Baroness Northover
The noble Baroness made a poignant case for why children need to be listened to. I hope I can reassure her that HealthWatch England and local healthwatch have a responsibility to hear the voices of everyone, whatever their age. I accept what she says about the legal status of children. However, as she made very obvious, that does not mean to say that we cannot hear their voices and take very seriously their perception of how they can best be treated.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate on this amendment. I am aware that there is a very powerful lobby in this House which supports the voice of the child in all matters and supports children’s welfare generally. There is also a very powerful lobby outside of children’s organisations that are dedicated to providing children with what they need.
I thank the noble Baroness for the reassurances that she has given. However, I stress that the research I quoted contains clear evidence that the voice of the child is often overlooked. We must be vigilant that it is not overlooked in the future. One of my three queries to the Government concerned disseminating guidance. I fully accept that there will be a health outcomes strategy for children. However, we have to keep an eye on that and see what happens in relation to the contribution of children’s voices to carrying out that strategy.
The noble Baroness said that there would be a review of how HealthWatch England and local healthwatch involved children. I suggest that two years after commencement is a sufficiently long period. I am disappointed about the champion issue because without advocacy some vulnerable groups will be neglected, which is never a good thing. I will follow up these issues with the Government. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“(14) The Healthwatch England committee is to be treated for the purposes of section 2(1) of the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960 as a body that includes all the members of the Care Quality Commission.”
Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, perhaps I may ask a question following the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. Does healthwatch not cover health and social care? If it does, the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, has a strong point.
Earl Howe
My Lords, while, for reasons which I shall explain later, I do not feel able to accept this amendment, I say immediately to the noble Baroness that she has raised a very important issue with which the Government are in complete sympathy.
It is important for older people to have a strong voice to champion their interests and to ensure that their needs are addressed in public services. Both I and my honourable friend the Minister of State for Care Services have met the noble Baroness over recent months to discuss this issue and have been struck forcefully by the powerful case that she has made. As she is aware, my honourable friend would like to continue these discussions with her, as we are particularly grateful for the expertise that she brings to this area.
I am sure noble Lords will agree that older people are affected by a wide range of issues—not only health and social care but areas of policy such as housing and pensions. The Government recognise this. The UK Advisory Forum on Ageing, co-chaired by the Minister of State for Care Services and the Minister of State for Pensions, provides advice across government on the additional steps that they and their partners need to take to improve well-being and independence in later life.
In health, a range of functions in relation to older people are already carried out in this country. That should not surprise us because we all know that a very large proportion of the NHS budget is accounted for by healthcare delivered to the elderly. The Department of Health is pursuing a number of initiatives to improve the care of older people in hospitals, care homes and other settings. These initiatives cover all stages of the care pathway—from helping individuals to stay healthy and to stay in the community all the way through to end-of-life care. For example, the department already has a National Clinical Director for Older People, Professor David Oliver, whose remit is to promote the better care of older people across the NHS and social services, and to provide clinical leadership for cross-government work on older people.
My noble friend Lady Barker rightly stressed the key role of social care in relation to older people. Looking across the spectrum of health and social care, each health and well-being board will be required to develop a joint strategic needs assessment, identifying the current and future needs of the local population, and a joint health and well-being strategy to set out how those needs will be met. I can say to the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, that it is intended that health and well-being boards will bring together the key local commissioners to enable them, first, to consider the total resource available to improve their population’s health and well-being, and then to come to a joint understanding about how those resources can best be invested. This will undoubtedly help to encourage a more integrated local service which is better able to meet the needs of older people by joining up NHS and social care services. I hope that that offers some reassurance to the noble Baroness that the voice and needs of older people in health is absolutely a priority for this Government.
Amendment 231A proposes that the role of commissioner for older people should fall on a member of HealthWatch England. I am afraid that I cannot agree that that would be an effective approach. The first reason is the one that I mentioned earlier: the role of an old people's champion goes wider than health and social care. Equally importantly, the job of HealthWatch England will be to carry out functions in relation to people. The word “people” is a deliberately broad term and its ordinary meaning would include older people of course, so we do not feel that it would be appropriate to give a member of HealthWatch England a remit for older people, which would give additional weight to one group of people over another. It could also lead to calls for a commissioner for other groups like those with learning disabilities and it would be difficult to see where the list would stop.
Although I completely understand the concern that older people have often lacked a voice within the system, and the need to ensure that they are not overlooked, we do not agree that the singling out of this group over others, within the context of healthwatch, would be the best way to achieve that. We want to address the concerns of the noble Baroness but not in this way. In the light of that and on the basis that she will continue to have discussions with my honourable friend on the issue in a wider sense, I hope that she will feel sufficiently reassured to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Bakewell
I thank the noble Earl for that engagement with the argument which I hope to start. Having a toe in the door, I hope that I can keep it open and perhaps prise it a little bit further open.
The noble Earl cites all the amazing institutions which are responsible for older people and one wonders why there is such a catalogue of misery across the country. Why are things going wrong? Why do they not answer the needs of older people? Why are there so many people catalogued as living wretched lives and writing letters of complaint, virtually with tear-stained ink? This is a major problem that the system is not answering. Therefore, I hope to take the issue further.
I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that we should not medicalise the issue of being old. We have to keep old people fit so that they can enjoy old age. If this matter is to be referred to other government departments, I would include the DCMS so that access for older people to theatres and cinemas, help with hearing and so on can improve their quality of life. There is much to be improved, as we all know. I welcome the noble Earl’s commitment to making that so and I hope to follow it up in future. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Northover
Baroness Northover
I shall speak also to the other government amendments in this group relating to local healthwatch. Local healthwatch goes to the heart of the Government’s ambition for a health and care service that is centred around patients and users. In the consultation paper Liberating the NHS: Local Democratic Legitimacy in Health, published in July 2010, the Government stated:
“Local authorities have a vital role in commissioning HealthWatch arrangements that serve their local populations well … In the event of under-performance, a local authority should intervene; and ultimately re-tender the contract where that is in the best interests of its local population”.
Local healthwatch will go further than just gathering views; it will be there to support individuals by providing information and advice about access to services and choice. We firmly believe that this will enable people to take more control of their own health, treatment and care, and understand and use the increased choices available to them. I am sure noble Lords will agree that this kind of support will be invaluable.
As a corporate body with a statutory function of carrying out statutory activities, local healthwatch will gather information about people’s views and experiences of the health and social care system. This will enable the voice of people to reach commissioners and providers of health and social care services, a link that has been lacking in the past.
Local healthwatch will have a seat on every statutory health and well-being board which will prepare statutory joint strategic needs assessments and joint health and well-being strategies, which will inform local commissioning plans. Through local healthwatch the patient voice will influence and inform the work of the health and well-being board. I hope that noble Lords will agree that this will give local healthwatch much more influence at the decision-making table and will help hardwire public engagement into the strategic planning of health and care services from the start.
The evidence and insight gathered by local healthwatch will also inform HealthWatch England and enable it to advise on the national picture—for example, where it sees a pattern across a number of local concerns—which will ensure that local views will be able to influence national policy, advice and guidance. This role will be strengthened following the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, which we accepted earlier when debating HealthWatch England.
We have always envisaged that local authorities, which will be responsible for commissioning local healthwatch, will have flexibility about its organisational form. This will enable them to take account of local needs and circumstances. We are pleased that senior voices within local government support the Government’s policy intentions and are willing to use their leadership role to help support local authorities to drive effective commissioning and implementation at local level. This approach to local healthwatch aligns with the Government’s localism agenda. However, on reflection we realised that greater flexibility was needed over the organisational form of local healthwatch, and for this reason we tabled the amendments in this group. We do not now think that prescribing from the centre that local healthwatch must be a statutory body corporate with an exact form is the best way forward.
Before listening to the views of noble Lords, perhaps I may address some concerns around the Government’s approach to local healthwatches. The first relates to their status as statutory bodies with statutory functions. One issue that LINks have faced is the model itself. As they are inherently loose networks, they require a host to provide administrative and other support, which has caused difficulties in some areas. By establishing local healthwatch as a body corporate we will avoid the difficulties of this, as the local healthwatch will be able to employ staff as well as involving volunteers.
It is important that local healthwatch organisations will be corporate bodies with statutory functions setting out their powers and duties. We agree with the assertion of the National Association for Voluntary and Community Action that,
“a network of vibrant community led organisations, answerable to local people, will have far more bite than over 150 unaccountable quangos”.
If we were to set out the more rigid requirements that statutory corporate bodies would have, this would be more likely to lend itself to the creation of such quangos.
Secondly, a number of noble Lords are concerned that there is a risk that a local authority will not wholeheartedly embrace entering into a contract with a body that will then criticise it. It is not new for local authorities to commission bodies, partly or fully, which then make their views known in feedback or reporting arrangements, with the net result of improving services locally. Examples include citizens advice bureaux, tenant organisations, legal advice centres and advocacy support. I assure noble Lords that these groups tend not to be afraid to come forward, and that most local authorities welcome such insight—as we heard yesterday from the LGA and others at the meeting to which noble Lords referred. It follows that there should be no problem were a local healthwatch organisation to share differing views or constructively criticise a local authority’s commissioning or provision of care services. It will be useful for local authorities to hear that feedback.
The needs of local communities should play a part in who is contracted to become the local healthwatch. We want to ensure that the expertise that exists in the community has the opportunity to contribute to local healthwatch. For example, a local authority could commission a community interest company, charity or other form of social enterprise that meets the prescribed criteria. Local authorities will be best placed to make such decisions, based on their knowledge of their local area, and it will be right to allow each to commission a local healthwatch that is right for them.
Thirdly, a key failing of many LINks is their inability to involve a wide range of people and different sections of the community. We discussed this when debating the previous group of amendments. The result is that they lack diversity in their membership, which makes them unrepresentative of their local population. These issues are being addressed by healthwatch. There is a duty on healthwatch to be representative, in the sense of the population demographics of an individual local community, when carrying out its functions. In order for local healthwatch to be truly representative across the individual local community, the ambition is that it will be part of a system rooted in local experience, harnessing the expertise of the public, community and voluntary sectors and others at the local level, particularly those working with people and groups who have a difficult time getting their voices heard. I beg to move.
Baroness Wheeler
My Lords, on behalf of these Benches, I want to express our concern and exasperation at these cobbled-together, last-minute changes to the status and organisational arrangements for local healthwatch. We are utterly opposed to depriving local healthwatch of its statutory status. It is hard to see the logic behind the new approach, even for those of us who are supportive of the local development of social enterprises.
The noble Baroness has not explained why this last-minute change is taking place 14 months into the consideration of the Bill. Why was this new approach and dramatic change not spelt out and included in the consultation that the Government have conducted since Committee stage on healthwatch membership? Why such a fundamental change of direction at this late stage?
The Government’s argument is that the new arrangements will provide local authorities with the flexibility that they need in establishing healthwatch organisations and facilitating their networking with other local community organisations. In practice, this means that not only will each local healthwatch be very different, and it will take more than the proposed national kite mark to provide them with any joined-up coherence, but they will all develop at a very different pace as local authorities take time to decide on the form of structure, and then draw up and implement their commissioning arrangements, or further subcontracting arrangements, if they want to make things really confusing, and so on. This is hardly the smooth transition from LINks organisations to the proper and coherent structure of patient representation at local level that we need. Like so much in this Bill, what could be simple and straightforward is made fragmented and complicated and requires detailed explanation. The Government also make strong play of local healthwatch organisations having a statutory function through a seat on health and well-being boards, through making a contribution on that board and the statutory joint strategic needs assessments and the joint health and well-being strategy. healthwatch will also have statutory status through the statutory health and well-being boards’ ability to refer back to the NHS Commissioning Board plans that do not meet the needs of the local communities. So we have a second-hand, reflected statutory authority by participating in bodies that have statutory status.
It is interesting, too, that with clinical commissioning groups the Government have repeatedly argued that the Bill was needed to enable CCGs to be statutory bodies in their own right. Now we see exactly the opposite argument when it comes to patient representation.
Finally, there is the relationship of local healthwatch with the local authority, where there is again huge potential for conflict of interest, and concern that even the well intentioned authorities facing severe budget cuts could struggle to find the required funding for healthwatch organisations. Government amendments to address this and potential conflicts of interest by requiring local authorities to,
“have regard to ... any Secretary of State guidance on this matter”,
do not provide the safeguards that would be needed to ensure that patients, their carers or representatives should be able to expect if they are concerned that their complaint about a social services department is channelled through a non-statutory body funded and linked to the local authority itself.
As with the rest of the Bill, these are complicated structures understood and supported by no one, with details fleshed out at the last minute and sprung upon the House, in effect, only three working days before we are due to consider them, and with no opportunity for consultation on such fundamental change. Arguably most important of all is that it is impossible to see, among all these amendments, how these local organisations will relate to national healthwatch. Perhaps the kite marks are designed more to help HealthWatch England recognise who it has under its umbrellas than to assist local organisations networking with each other.
I hope that even at this late stage the Minister will acknowledge the concern, confusion and demoralisation, particularly among key patient organisations and groups, at the last-minute decision to change the status of local healthwatch organisations. I hope that she will agree to withdraw these amendments and instead restore statutory status to local healthwatch, enabling them to be organisations that everyone can rely on to be genuine patient representatives, fully trusted and supported by patients and the public.
Baroness Northover
Again, my Lords, what shines through is a great commitment to public and patient involvement at a local level; the only dispute is over the form of that. Again, noble Lords are familiar with the fact that various models have been tried, and I emphasise once again that we are seeking to build on the strengths of what has worked and mitigate some of the problems that have been encountered.
My noble friend Lady Jolly has tabled Amendments 234 and 235, the result of which would be to replace references to “people” with “local people” in Section 221 of the 2007 Act and insert the definition of “local people”. We talked about the difficulty of organisations— LINks in particular—reaching groups that were defined as hard to reach. The definition in my noble friend’s amendment says that when carrying out its functions, local healthwatch has to be representative of people who live in the area, service users and people who are representative of the local community. That applies to people of all ages and emphasises the need for local healthwatch to champion the views of the whole breadth of the local community. I am therefore grateful to my noble friend for this contribution, and I am happy to support her amendments.
Although I am sympathetic to the sentiment behind my noble friend Lady Cumberlege’s Amendments 232, 236 and 237, I hope I can reassure noble Lords that, as corporate bodies, local healthwatches will have the flexibilities to make their own arrangements for securing staff, accommodation and so on, so the local authority should not have to make such arrangements on their behalf. There is no need for express provision on payment of expenditure because the legislation requires local authorities to make arrangements to ensure that the relevant activities can be carried on in their area. Necessarily, that means providing adequate funding to enable the functions to be carried out. This is an important point that I hope reassures noble Lords: the statutory functions must be delivered, and that is a protection of these bodies.
My noble friend Lady Cumberlege is quite right about local healthwatches working out their own priorities and work, and they will no doubt be doing that in conjunction with what is found to be good practice around the country, information coming from HealthWatch England and so on. I assure my noble friend that staff are there to help to facilitate such work, not to dominate it. My noble friend Lady Jolly is right: local healthwatch is a partner with local authorities—the eyes and ears, as the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and others have said.
My noble friend Lady Cumberlege was concerned that government amendments would damage local healthwatch’s independence. I do not agree: the amendments do not dilute in any way the statutory functions of local healthwatch, including the ability to give advice to local authorities among others. In response to concerns that local authorities may try to suppress local healthwatch, we specifically brought forward Amendment 236E giving the Secretary of State the ability to publish conflicts of interest guidance that both local authorities and local healthwatch would have to have regard to.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, raised a number of issues. He regretted the fact that yesterday he was not at the seminar that I mentioned. I regret that he was not there. It was interrupted by a couple of votes, but I am sure that he would have engaged with those who were speaking there. That would have helped to inform everybody. All Peers were invited and some from his group attended. I see a few shaking heads.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the seminar was held during the regular meeting of Labour Peers which has occurred at 5 pm on Wednesday evenings since time began.
Baroness Northover
I am very sorry if there was a conflict of timing. Obviously it is difficult to schedule all the various meetings. My noble friend Lord Howe has had 100 meetings on this Bill.
Baroness Northover
I am very sorry if that was the case. If it was the case all the way through, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, indicates, perhaps it might have been an idea to feed that in.
Baroness Thornton
The noble Baroness might like to check with the Box. I informed the noble Earl’s office of the times of our group meetings at the beginning of proceedings. Meetings and seminars have clashed all the way through.
Baroness Northover
I am very sorry if that is the case. I would hope that we would be able to have other such meetings. As these arrangements are taken forward, it would be extremely useful to have people’s engagement. I was extremely glad that, even in such a clash, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and her noble friend were there.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, should have received the letter about the amendments, but I gather that he thought he had not. A letter and briefing notes were sent to all Peers when the amendments were tabled and a full narrative of local healthwatch policy has been published on the Department of Health website. If the noble Lord has not seen the letter then I will feed that into the department to make sure that he receives this information so that he has it at his fingertips when he is contacted late at night by people who email him with concerns.
As I have mentioned before, it is very important that the local healthwatch seeks out views right across the area. It is an important factor in this arrangement that the local healthwatch will have a seat on the health and well-being board. I hope that that will help to reassure people of the influence of local healthwatch.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, talked about privatisation by so-called social enterprises, or he flagged that up as a concern. I emphasise that the Government are huge fans of social enterprises, which perform a range of roles across the NHS. Social enterprises such as Turning Point are, of course, extremely valuable. This is not about privatisation or competition, as I feel we have made very clear.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, also referred to my noble friend Lord Howe. My noble friend’s concern in 2007 was that local LINks should have at least a basic structure of governance. That is precisely the concern that has led us to propose that local healthwatches should be social enterprises. The question of governance is quite separate from the question of whether or not an organisation should be statutory. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Harris, can enter dialogue with my noble friend Lord Howe on all of that in due course.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, also asked about the possibility of there being more than one local healthwatch. Only one local healthwatch will be permitted for each local authority area. Each local authority will be able to make only one contract. If the local healthwatch wishes to subcontract some of its functions it can do so if the local authority permits, but the functions would still remain the responsibility of the local healthwatch. I hope that that clarifies the position.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I was trying to establish whether it would be possible, under these amendments, to segment the various functions of local healthwatch and contract them separately. I think the noble Baroness has just confirmed that. Am I right?
Baroness Northover
The key fact is that there is one local healthwatch for any local authority area. If it decides that it wants to subcontract something to best achieve what it needs, that is up to that local healthwatch. The noble Lord might want to bear in mind the statutory functions of local healthwatch and its responsibilities as eyes and ears. If it was not working, I am sure that noble Lords such as he would flag that up. Local healthwatch would then have to justify what it was doing and might need to move away from it.
I realise that time is pressing and it is a Thursday afternoon. I have listened to the concerns expressed about the need for local healthwatch to have strong lay involvement. I completely agree. This will be vital to the success of local healthwatch. Therefore, I confirm to the House today that we will use the power of the Secretary of State to specify criteria, which local healthwatch must satisfy, to include strong involvement by volunteers and lay members, including in its governance and leadership. This will have the effect that a local authority cannot award a local healthwatch contract to a social enterprise unless this condition is satisfied. I hope that that provides reassurance to noble Lords. My noble friend Lady Jolly also flagged this up.
The noble Lord, Lord Low, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and others raised the issue of funding for local healthwatch. It is important that local authorities can manage local priorities, since they are best placed to respond to their local communities. Therefore, local healthwatch will remain within local authority funding mechanisms, as I mentioned earlier. This view was supported by the NHS Future Forum, which made clear in its Patient Involvement and Public Accountability report that it did,
“not agree that budgets for local Healthwatch should be ring fenced”.
However, to reassure noble Lords, I point out that statutory functions must be delivered. This helps to protect what local healthwatch is there to do.
I believe that there is consensus over our ambition for local healthwatch. We do not disagree about what we want it to do for people or to accomplish in order to raise the quality of care. I hope that I have reassured noble Lords that it is right for local healthwatch to be delivered at a local level by organisations that are accountable locally. To embed healthwatch in localism will not only enable the organisational form of local healthwatch to best meet the needs of the local population but better enable local healthwatch to play an effective role in feeding back people’s views and promoting their involvement in the scrutiny and provision of local care services. I refer again to the positive reaction of several different local authorities and councillors who are very pleased that they will now be involved in many elements of the healthcare services, as they are in public health.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Could the noble Baroness tell us how many LINks have been in touch with the department to say that they welcome these changes?
Baroness Northover
Like the noble Lord, I recognise that the organisations which are in place when change occurs are always concerned. LINks have rightly expressed concern about whether what they know works well in what they do will be taken forward. They are very open about the challenges that they faced and some of the areas in which they have not done as well as intended. I pay tribute to the then Government for trying to make the system work when it was set up. It was a reaction to what had been done before and a looser model. Everybody in the system wanted that to work as a model. However, I think that the noble Lord has admitted that it has not worked universally. It is therefore understandable that the relevant organisations expressed concerns. I hope that they will become involved in the new system and that what they have contributed—the volunteers among them have made an effective contribution in many areas—will feed into local healthwatch. With that, I hope that noble Lords will accept the Government’s amendments.
“( ) After subsection (3A) insert—
“(3B) Each local authority must ensure that only one set of arrangements under subsection (1) in relation to its area is in force at any one time.””
“(7) In the title to section 221, omit “: local involvement networks”
“(2) The arrangements must be made with a body corporate which—
(a) is a social enterprise, and(b) satisfies such criteria as may be prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State.(2A) For so long as the arrangements are in force, the body with which they are made—
(a) has the function of carrying on in A’s area the activities specified in section 221(2), and(b) is to be known as the “Local Healthwatch organisation” for A’s area.(2B) But the arrangements may authorise the Local Healthwatch organisation to make, in pursuance of those arrangements, arrangements (“Local Healthwatch arrangements”) with a person (other than A) for that person—
(a) to assist the organisation in carrying on in A’s area some or all of the activities, or (b) (subject to provision made under section 223(2)(e)) to carry on in A’s area some (but not all) of the activities on the organisation’s behalf.”
“(3) In subsection (3), for the words from the beginning to “who is not” substitute “None of the following is capable of being a Local Healthwatch organisation”.”
“Local arrangements: power to make further provision
(1) Section 223 (power to make further provision about local authority arrangements) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), for “require prescribed provision to be included in local involvement network arrangements” substitute “include prescribed provision”.
(3) After that subsection insert—
“(1A) The Secretary of State may make regulations which provide that local authority arrangements must require Local Healthwatch arrangements to include prescribed provision.”
(4) In subsection (2)—
(a) for “must require local involvement network arrangements to include” substitute “must include or (as the case may be) must require Local Healthwatch arrangements to include”,(b) in paragraphs (a), (c) and (d), for “a local involvement network” substitute “a Local Healthwatch organisation or a Local Healthwatch contractor”, and(c) after paragraph (d) insert “; (e) prescribed provision relating to the activities which a Local Healthwatch contractor may not carry on on a Local Healthwatch organisation’s behalf;(f) prescribed provision relating to the obtaining by a Local Healthwatch organisation of a licence under section 45C of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 and the grant by the organisation to a Local Healthwatch contractor of a sub-licence;(g) prescribed provision relating to the use by a Local Healthwatch organisation or a Local Healthwatch contractor of the trade mark to which a licence under that section relates;(h) prescribed provision relating to the infringement of the trade mark to which a licence under that section relates;(i) prescribed provision relating to the imposition of a requirement on a Local Healthwatch organisation to act with a view to securing that its Local Healthwatch contractors (taken together) are representative of—(i) people who live in the local authority’s area,(ii) people to whom care services are being or may be provided in that area, and(iii) people from that area to whom care services are being provided in any place.”(5) After subsection (2) insert—
“(2A) The provision which may be prescribed in relation to a Local Healthwatch contractor includes provision that relates to the contractor—
(a) only in so far as it assists the Local Healthwatch organisation in the carrying on of activities specified in section 221(2);(b) only in so far as it carries on such activities on the organisation’s behalf.(2B) Regulations under this section may make provision which applies to all descriptions of Local Healthwatch contractor, which applies to all those descriptions subject to specified exceptions or which applies only to such of those descriptions as are prescribed.”
(6) In subsection (3)—
(a) before the definition of “a local involvement network” insert—““care services” has the meaning given by section 221;”,
(b) omit the definition of “a local involvement network”,(c) for the definition of “local involvement network arrangements” substitute—““Local Healthwatch arrangements” has the meaning given by section 222;”
(d) after that definition insert—““Local Healthwatch contractor”, in relation to a Local Healthwatch organisation, means a person with whom the organisation makes Local Healthwatch arrangements;”, and
(e) after the definition of “prescribed provision” insert “;“trade mark”, and “use” and “infringement” in relation to a trade mark, each have the same meaning as in the Trade Marks Act 1994.””
“( ) a complaint under section 73C(1) of the National Health Service Act 2006; ( ) a complaint to a Local Commissioner under Part 3 of the Local Government Act 1974 about a matter which could be the subject of a complaint under section 73C(1) of the National Health Service Act 2006; or”
“(2) In subsection (2), omit “by a local authority with another person (“H”)”.”
“Consequential provision
(1) In the Schedule to the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960, after paragraph (bk) (as inserted by paragraph 2 of Schedule 13) insert—
“(bl) Local Healthwatch organisations, as regards the carrying on of activities specified in section 221(1) of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 (local care services);”.(2) In Part 3 of Schedule 1 to the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975, at the appropriate place insert—
“Director of a Local Healthwatch organisation.”(3) In Part 3 of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975, at the appropriate place insert—
“Director of a Local Healthwatch organisation.”(4) In Part 2 of Schedule 1 to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (local government), after paragraph 35D insert—
“35E A Local Healthwatch organisation, in respect of information held in connection with—
(a) arrangements made under section 221(1) of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007, or(b) arrangements made in pursuance of arrangements made under section 221(1) of that Act.” (5) In section 65H of the National Health Service Act 2006 (NHS foundation trust special administration provisions: consultation requirements), in subsection (8), for subsection (e) substitute—
“(e) a Local Healthwach organisation;”.(6) In section 4 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (matters to which the Care Quality Commission must have regard)—
(a) in subsection (1)(c)—(i) for “local involvement networks” substitute “Local Healthwatch organisations or Local Healthwatch contractors”, and(ii) omit “in their areas”.(b) for subsection (3) substitute—“(3) In subsection (1)(c), “Local Healthwatch contractor” has the meaning given by section 223 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007.””
Earl Howe
My Lords, this group of amendments all relate to health and well-being boards and in particular their statutory minimum membership, responsibility for preparing both joint strategic needs assessments and joint health and well-being strategies, as well as their role in promoting integration.
Amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and my noble friend Lord Shipley, relate to changes to the statutory membership of health and well-being boards, which I know we have previously debated. As noble Lords will be aware, we have consulted extensively on the membership of health and well-being boards and one of the consistent messages we have heard is that local people want a balance between the flexibility to add members alongside some consistency in representation from key players, such as elected representatives and clinical commissioning groups.
The Future Forum looked at this and, following its report, we made a commitment that it will be for local authorities, or in some cases the leader or mayor, to determine the precise number of elected representatives on its board, although we have stipulated that there must be at least one. I would ask my noble friend Lord Shipley to note the words “at least one”. We believe that it is right for local areas to be able to have the flexibility to determine the wider membership of their boards based on local need. I am of course happy, however, to engage with my noble friend in further discussions.
The Bill allows local areas the flexibility to develop the arrangements that best work for them. It is important to be clear that the purpose of this policy is not primarily about setting up a committee but about stimulating effective joint working for and with local people and communities. The health and well-being board will be central to this joint working but must not represent its limit.
We can be encouraged by what is now happening on the ground. We know that a large number of local areas are already working with all the relevant stakeholders to explore and agree how they can work together in the future to make the biggest difference to local people. For instance, from our work with shadow health and well-being boards, we have had lots of feedback to suggest that two-tier county councils are working closely with district councils through the boards in a range of creative and positive ways based on local need and circumstances. In fact, I understand that in many two-tier areas, shadow boards are already operating with more than one district council representative ranging from the leader, the chief executive or a senior officer. However, developing these relationships and understanding how best everyone, whether it be district councils, health professionals, local providers or the voluntary sector, can contribute in the most appropriate way, is something that we feel strongly is best left to these conversations rather than being prescribed on the face of the Bill.
Amendments 238C, 238D and 238E, tabled in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, relate to placing a particular emphasis on educational and children’s services. They would make explicit reference to education and children’s services in the Bill, in the context of the duty and powers of health and well-being boards, to encourage close working between the commissioners of health and social care services, with itself and with commissioners of health-related services in the area. I should like to take this opportunity to reiterate some of the points made during our previous debates on this topic. I fully agree that joining up health and social care services for children as well as for adults is crucial, but I believe that the existing provisions set out in the Bill are sufficient to ensure that the voices of children are heard. Indeed, I should like to remind noble Lords that in preparing the JSNA and joint health and well-being strategy, health and well-being boards will have a statutory duty to involve people who live or work in the area, and this will include within it young people. The director of children’s services will be a statutory member of the health and well-being board to ensure that the needs of children are taken into account, and local healthwatch will also be able to use its membership on the boards to help ensure that the voices of the whole community, including those of young people, are fed in.
In addition, the statutory guidance—I think this is a reassurance that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, wanted—we are producing on JSNAs and joint health and well-being strategies will emphasise the importance of understanding and addressing the needs of children and young people. We are also supporting the efforts of local partners by bringing together emerging health and well-being boards into a national learning network, which is developing ways to engage effectively with local people, including a focus on effective joint working to improve services for children and families.
Baroness Whitaker
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl, but before he moves off our amendments, I did not actually hear the words “education services” in his helpful remarks. Could he explain how they will come in?
Earl Howe
I was going to come on to that in replying to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. If the noble Baroness will bear with me, I hope that I will cover the point.
Amendment 238A would require local authorities and CCGs to specifically consult relevant health professionals when preparing the JSNA. As I have said before, in preparing the JSNA and joint strategy, local authorities and CCGs will be under a duty, which the health and well-being boards will discharge, to involve people who live or work in the area. In practice this could well include health professionals. Indeed, I thought that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, made a powerful point in this regard, and I do feel that we are broadly accepting the spirit of the amendment.
In relation to Amendment 238AZA in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, I should like to reassure both of them that the health and well-being strategy will be a shared, overarching response addressing the health and social care needs of an area identified through the JSNA. In the joint strategy, the board will be able to consider how the commissioning of wider health-related services could be more closely integrated with health and social care commissioning. For example, the board could consider whether and how housing, education or local authority leisure services could affect health and, if they do, how commissioning could be more closely integrated with the commissioning of health and social care services. The model we have chosen for health and well-being boards is designed to enable those wider conversations to take place, and in answer specifically to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, I genuinely believe that the arrangements in the Bill afford a much better chance of us having joined-up thinking and joined-up services than we have had before. Clinical commissioners will be best placed to work in the interests of children, especially when this requires working with other professionals. There are strong duties on commissioners as to promoting integration, as the noble Earl will be aware.
On Amendment 238H, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, we believe that health and well-being boards will provide an opportunity to build strong relationships with an open culture of peer-to-peer challenge. The JSNA and joint strategy will provide all members with a common understanding of local needs and priorities. However, giving boards a power of veto over commissioning plans would undoubtedly undermine that relationship. I am afraid that we are firmly against that idea.
We are in agreement on that matter with the Future Forum and the Local Government Association, both of which recognise that placing a duty on CCGs to agree commissioning plans with the health and well-being boards would confuse lines of accountability and be unworkable—confusing and unworkable were the words of the Future Forum. CCGs are ultimately responsible for their budgets and to give the health and well-being boards the right to make decisions that might incur costs for commissioners without taking responsibility for expenditure would be wrong.
I hope that I have been able to reassure noble Lords adequately—although I know that I will not have reassured the noble Lord, Lord Beecham—and they feel able not to press their amendments.
Finally, I should like to speak to the government amendment in this group, Amendment 239, which is a minor technical amendment in relation to Clause 195. The purpose of this amendment is to clarify that a local authority may delegate any functions exercisable by it to the health and well-being board. I hope that it will receive the support of the House.
Lord Beecham
I remind the noble Earl of my question about whether that extends to general powers of competence rather than statutory functions. I invite him to communicate later as I suspect that he may not be in a position to do that immediately.
Lord Ramsbotham
I thank the noble Earl for his habitually courteous and balanced reply and I am reassured on some of the points that I raised. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, and my noble friend Lady Finlay in particular for supporting the amendments and to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for mentioning them. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, I have this nagging fear that education, education, education is something that will need to engage the health and well-being boards. The link between education and health, particularly in the assessment, which was the subject of the amendments, is absolutely crucial. During the passage of the then Education Bill, noble Lords described what they wanted but of course they could not have it because they were health matters funded by health. Therefore, it is terribly important that joint working happens.
I was very glad that the noble Earl mentioned “effective joint working”, because I am sure that that is what we all seek. That was what was behind each and every one of the amendments. On the basis of that and knowing the noble Earl and that if he says something it is usually likely to happen, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.