Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Rawlings Excerpts

Thursday 8th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

So that we can have it absolutely on the record, is the noble Lord saying that a teaching hospital in central London—

[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, we are on Report.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

It is a very important question.

[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, it must be a brief question.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames]

My Lords, I believe that I have answered the question. I accept that it is important. We believe that the provisions that are now to be in the Bill, given the government amendments and an assurance that I hope to receive from the Government, will cover the position.

I was explaining that, when we tabled Amendment 220B, we believed that there should also be an individual arrangement for agreement with Monitor so that all considerations could be balanced when considering any substantial increase in private income. However, in discussions, the Government agreed to respond to amendments that Liberal Democrat Peers tabled in Committee on the involvement of governors. Those amendments that the Government now pursue—Amendments 220BZA and 220BZB—represent that response. They ensure that any increase of more than 5 per cent would have to be approved by the governors voting, as I say, by a majority. The governors have to be satisfied that the plans put forward by the foundation trusts for attracting private income would not interfere with the treatment or welfare of NHS patients. I suggest that that scheme represents a devolved, local scheme that is consonant with the structures in the Bill and the desire to keep local decision-making at a local level.

There may still be concern that the governors of individual foundation trusts will primarily have in mind the concerns of their own foundation trusts. However, under amendments that have been agreed, Monitor is now to have continuing powers of supervision and intervention over foundation trusts. If we are assured that in every case where the governors approve a proposal for an increase in private income in excess of 5 per cent Monitor will consider whether the interests of NHS patients as a whole are to be safeguarded, and if it is not so satisfied it would intervene, I suggest that that assurance will meet that concern. We will not move Amendment 220B but we seek that assurance from my noble friend the Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Warner]

May I just correct the noble Baroness? I actually anticipated that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, was going to jump up. I did not stop him jumping up. He chose to withdraw.

[Baroness Rawlings]

May I just remind the noble Lord that the Companion sets out that a Member shall not speak twice on an amendment on Report.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I have to say that we are seeing a reinterpretation of the normal procedure on Report. Nothing in the Companion prevents a noble Lord intervening and asking the Minister a short question. The fact is that by ploughing on and refusing to answer questions, the Minister is not serving the House appropriately.

[Baroness Rawlings]

I shall just read from the Companion:

“A member of the House who is speaking may be interrupted with a brief question for clarification. Giving way accords with the traditions and customary courtesy of the House. It is, however, recognised that a member may justifiably refuse to give way, for instance, in the middle of an argument, or to repeated interruption, or in time-limited proceedings when time is short. Lengthy or frequent interventions should not be made, even with the consent of the member speaking”.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, it may help the House if I continue, but I am very happy to give way to noble Lords who wish to ask questions once I have gone through the various elements.

Government Amendment 226ZG will enable HealthWatch England to make recommendations of a general nature to local authorities about the making of arrangements for local healthwatch organisations and, where HealthWatch England is of the opinion that local healthwatch organisations’ activities are not being carried out properly, to draw this to the attention of the local authority.

Amendment 226A, tabled by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, would place a duty—I see Companions spinning all around the House, so while noble Lords are studying that—