Yvette Cooper
Main Page: Yvette Cooper (Labour - Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford)Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill
Yvette Cooper Excerpts
Mr Speaker
I note the sedentary observation from the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). The Minister should return to the first group, with which she was dealing. If she has dealt with that group to her satisfaction, we can always await with interest and anticipation her remarks on the second group, but only when we reach it.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
I am pleased to welcome the Bill back to the House, and not only because the Chamber is the only cool place in the building and it is some relief to be in here.
This evening, we will see the Bill through its final stages and have the chance to wish it well on its way to Royal Assent. We have the chance to consider the Bill as it is returned to us from the Lords, with the amendments they have tabled. As a result of the Bill, gay and lesbian couples will be able to get married, just as their parents did and just as their friends and relatives do. Couples who love each other are getting engaged already: they are preparing to tie the knot and getting ready for a great party. I have a sneaking suspicion that even some of the opponents of the Bill—certainly many of its supporters—are rather envious of those who are on the Elton John and David Furnish guest list. That will certainly be a proper party.
It is striking how much warmth and celebration the Bill has received. I join the Secretary of State in thanking the House of Lords for its strong cross-party support for the Bill. In particular, I thank Baroness Thornton and Baroness Royall, who led the Labour Front-Bench team in the Lords, but also Baroness Stowell who led for the Government. I am sure the Secretary of State will join me in thanking Lord Alli, who did such a fantastic job building support throughout the other place over many months.
I thank the Prime Minister for sticking with the Bill when those around him called for a halt, and I thank the Secretary of State and her Ministers, who have worked extremely hard; I know how much of their time this has taken up in the Department and Parliament. I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) and for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who worked so hard from the Labour Front Bench, and all my hon. Friends who came to support the Bill. I am very glad that Labour votes got the Bill through its Second and Third Readings in the House and that we will support it again tonight.
I also thank hon. Members from all parties who voted for the Bill despite personal pressures, perhaps from their faith group, the Government Benches or local political parties. It is not an easy thing to do, but it is the right thing to do.
Mr Burrowes
The right hon. Lady talks about the time the other place gave to scrutinising the Bill, which I respect, but can she point to any non-Government amendments that made it through that scrutiny process? Does she not give some credence to the concerns of the noble Lord Framlingham, who said:
“This House prides itself on being a revising Chamber. On this Bill it has been a bulldozer. We are being used to bulldoze through an ill thought through Bill”?—[Official Report, House of Lords, 15 July 2013; Vol. 747, c. 543.]
Yvette Cooper
I strongly disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The Lords have debated the Bill extensively and have given it strong support. It is true that many of the amendments have Government support, but that reflects the detailed discussions that have taken place between Ministers, Back Benchers and Opposition Front Benchers. For example, the Government now support the amendments on humanism and so on, which they did not when we debated these issues before. As a result of those debates and our efforts to compromise and ensure that the Bill made progress, we reached agreement even among those who disagreed on certain issues. We did that to support the Bill and to promote the strong values that we celebrate in marriage.
Yvette Cooper
My hon. Friend is exactly right. While we have been debating the Bill, we have been not only lobbied, but serenaded, most fabulously by the London Gay Men’s Chorus, who sang a rousing version of “Get me to the Church on Time”, which we all joined in with, as the Bill got its Second Reading in the House of Lords. That was a loud and proud, joyous celebration of love, laughter and marriage. That is the spirit in which we should see the Bill through its final stages this evening. As a result of this vote, same-sex couples will have the same recognition and respect from the state, and the same recognition under the law, for their relationship and their love. Because marriage is about the ups and downs, the long-term commitment through thick and thin, so this is also about the right to grow old and grumpy together under the banner of marriage. This is indeed time to celebrate, not discriminate.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
As someone who celebrates his 40th wedding anniversary next month and has had many ups and downs, I ask my right hon. Friend: is the Bill not about having a caring relationship between two people who love each other, making that commitment for life and making it all worth while? Why should anyone be excluded from that?
Yvette Cooper
My hon. Friend is exactly right, although I would never accuse him, whom I know so well, of growing old and grumpy with anybody, even after 40 years of marriage. We congratulate him as he celebrates his 40th anniversary.
This is about people celebrating their love for each other regardless of gender or sexuality. That is why the Bill is so important, after we have had changes in the law on the age of consent, membership of the armed forces, discrimination and adoption. In the words of Stonewall, this Bill is the final piece in the jigsaw to get equality under the law, and it is one we should welcome and celebrate.
Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
Would my right hon. Friend add to that list the repeal of section 28? Despite all the concerns, it has done no harm, just as this Bill will do no harm.
Mr Speaker
Order. It is perhaps understandable, but the remarks on both sides are in danger of causing this debate to become a kind of Third Reading debate, which it must not become. There are Lords amendments before us, and it is on those that Members’ remarks must be focused.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that by accepting this group of Lords amendments, we will be completing a journey that started, as she rightly said, with the Adoption and Children Act 2002? I and other hon. Members moved amendments to that legislation to give same-sex couples the right to apply to adopt. They were opposed by Conservative Front Benchers, which resulted in your resignation from that Front Bench, Mr Speaker, and started you on a journey that resulted in your being in the Chair this evening.
Yvette Cooper
In the spirit of your ruling, Mr Speaker, let me say that the reason the points made by my hon. Friends the Members for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) and for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) are relevant—not only to the Lords amendments we are considering, but to the amendments that many people have tried to make, and certainly from the Back Benches—is that there has been a debate about what happens in schools and teaching. We know that the removal of section 28 has been a good thing, which is an example of why people are wrong to be concerned about the impact on teaching. As the Secretary of State said, there are many safeguards in law to protect freedom of religion and belief in these matters, but also to ensure that we do not discriminate. That is what the amendments and this Bill are all about.
I want to refer to some of the most significant amendments passed in the other place, one of which deals with humanism. We made it clear in the House—as have many others—that we support the principle of allowing humanist weddings in England and Wales. We know that 2,500 non-religious couples in Scotland every year already enjoy the meaning and sentiment that having a humanist ceremony can bring to their special day. Humanist weddings are now the third most popular choice of ceremony in Scotland. I gather that humanist funerals are also quite popular in both England and Wales, as well as in Scotland. When it comes to weddings, we think that couples in England and Wales should be able to enjoy the same choices in how they celebrate as they do in their final rites.
Fiona O'Donnell
My right hon. Friend is generous in giving way again. As we have humanist naming ceremonies —she also referred to humanist funerals—does she not think it right that the whole journey of an individual and their family should have that seamless thread running through it?
Yvette Cooper
That is right. People should be able to have that choice. This is about what are the most important moments in people’s and family’s lives—births and weddings, as well as death and saying goodbye to a loved one. People should be able to choose how those crucial events in their lives are celebrated. That is why we think it right for people to be able to enjoy humanist celebrations as well.
Stephen Doughty
I totally concur with the points my right hon. Friend is making about humanist marriage, and I am glad the Government came back with amendments on this issue. Does she agree that there are important protections in the amendments made in the other place to prevent the possibility of crazy things such as Jedi weddings? This is about humanist weddings, which are very specific. It is not about commercial weddings, Jedi weddings or any of the other scaremongering that we have heard.
Yvette Cooper
My hon. Friend is right. We debated humanism when the Bill was in this place and in Committee, and the Government originally stated that they would not support amendments that would deliver humanist wedding ceremonies in this Bill, citing concern about delaying its passage. We did not, of course, want to delay the Bill’s passage or to create complexities that might have caused unintended problems elsewhere. That is why we did not, in the end, press the matter to a final vote in the Commons, but allowed the proposals to be further considered in the Lords so that Ministers could discuss them further.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
Could the right hon. Lady assist me by explaining the difference, if there is one, between marriage and weddings? She seems to be using the latter form rather than the former.
Yvette Cooper
Weddings are fabulous celebrations, and I really love going to them, but I do not love going to marriages. Marriage is something that people commit to for the whole of their lives—it has ups and downs; pain as well as pleasure and beauty—so it is obviously a very different thing from the one-day fabulous celebration that we all want to enjoy at weddings. However, I think we have a great opportunity to celebrate both weddings and marriages—that is what the Bill is about—and that long-term loving commitment that two people want to make to each other: to put up with each other when things get tough, to look after each other through illness or old age. Being able to make that commitment is hugely important. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) clearly seems to find this something he does not want to celebrate. I suspect he would celebrate such loving commitment in an opposite-sex marriage, so why will he not do so in a same-sex marriage as well? I urge him to do so, to give us a smile and just enjoy the fact that other people are going to get married as a result of this legislation.
Barbara Keeley
Talking of celebrations, Mr Speaker, I want to celebrate the fact that Labour’s shadow equality team has supported all the way through this amendment on the notion of humanist weddings. I am very pleased to see Lords amendment 10 tabled. Some years ago, I attended a humanist funeral for someone in my constituency, and it is one of the most moving occasions I have ever attended. It attested to the value of such a ceremony for somebody with humanist beliefs. I look forward, as I am sure other Members do, to a time after the consultation and review when we will be able to attend humanist marriages. I particularly wanted to celebrate the fact that the Opposition have supported this all the way along.
Yvette Cooper
I thank my hon. Friend for that. My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston and my noble Friend Baroness Thornton have had many meetings with the British Humanist Association and have worked with the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who has been a keen supporter of enabling humanist weddings.
I turn to pension survivor benefits, on which a major amendment was passed in the other place. We want to ensure that through this Bill, we make some progress towards addressing the remaining pensions inequalities between same-sex and opposite-sex couples. Measures have already been taken to equalise survivor benefit entitlements for civil partners with those of widowers under public sector and contracted-out schemes, and I welcome that. However, the estimates of the cost of equalising the remaining differences in survivor benefits have so far been very wide ranging. Everyone has accepted that the equalisation of pensions would involve some small and direct cost to private pension schemes, and the Government have asserted at different stages that equalising the benefits for civil partners and married couples of the same sex could result in a wide range of costs, but we have never seen any breakdown of those costs or of how they are calculated.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
Would the right hon. Lady be surprised to hear that neither the House of Commons Library nor the National Association of Pension Funds can provide a list of contracted-in schemes, which means that we cannot identify how the figure was calculated?
Yvette Cooper
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We also tried to find out through the House of Commons Library and others how some of the costings produced by the Government could be calculated. Everybody wants to ensure that the approach to the legislation and to pensions is fiscally responsible, and we need to understand what the costs might be, so it has been very frustrating that we have not had a detailed breakdown that justifies the claims of large costs. That makes it implausible to many experts that such costs would accrue. Many experts believe that the costs would not be those that Ministers have suggested would be incurred at different stages. That is why it is right to make this progress in the legislation.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
I thank the right hon. Lady for giving way and for her comments earlier about humanist weddings, which we will come back to later. The anomaly with pensions started with the civil partnerships legislation and was about to be continued, but is she really saying that equality should depend on price? Surely we want people to be equal regardless of their sexuality, and cost should not stop us ensuring that.
Yvette Cooper
I think the hon. Gentleman would agree that it is right to get an assessment of what the costs should be before making any decision. It is right to get the information, but unfortunately it has not been forthcoming. Although we have pressed the issue in the Commons and in meetings with Ministers, including the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb)—a member of the same party as the hon. Gentleman who will, I hope, encourage him to provide the detailed evidence we need—it looks to many experts as though the proposal is affordable, doable and will not incur the considerable costs that the Government have suggested. The amendment provides a sensible compromise that will not delay the progress of the Bill while allowing us to make some progress on pensions.
Mike Freer
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady, who is being very generous in giving way. Does she agree that whatever the cost, when contribution rates are the same, whether someone is straight or gay, it is not equitable that the pension benefits are different? If people pay the same, they should get the same.
Yvette Cooper
The hon. Gentleman makes exactly the right point about the principle of equality that we should be pursuing. That is why we wanted to see progress made on the legislation. We supported the compromise position proposed by the Government so that we did not delay the Bill but could make progress towards ensuring that the costings were set out and we would have the power to make the changes and establish the equality we all want. That is the right approach.
Kevin Brennan
Will proposed new subsection (6) in amendment 11, which gives the Secretary of State power to make an order in relation to pension benefits, mean that the order will come back to the House in any way, shape or form before it is made? Or are we allowing the Secretary of State the powers to make such an order without further parliamentary scrutiny?
Yvette Cooper
I hope that the Government will be able to make rapid progress and to introduce orders. It is right that they should look into the legal details and consequences of doing so, but I hope that we will be able to see that progress and to scrutinise such orders in this place.
Let me refer briefly to the amendments that relate to a group of people affected by the Bill who are sometimes overlooked in these debates and who still face enormous prejudice—that is, men and women who are transgender. Under the Bill, couples who want to remain married when one partner changes gender will for the first time be able to do so. I am pleased that the Government have made that concession and have allowed a fast-track procedure for gender recognition certificates to take place in particular circumstances, and I am pleased that the issue was debated in such detail in the House of Lords.
Yvette Cooper
I do. The issue was debated in Committee, but, given the huge effect that the present situation has on some people’s lives, it tends not to be considered much in comparison with the consideration that is given to other issues. The House of Lords was able to consider it at length, and I believe that we should support its amendments. I know that some Members of both Houses wanted more changes to be made to the Bill, or indeed opposed it in the first place.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
May I ask the right hon. Lady a question that I should have asked her earlier? The “humanist” amendment, which she supports, prescribes a clear timetable: a review must be
“produced and published before 1 January 2015.”
Why did she not consider it necessary to demand a timetable for the review of civil partnerships, which she supported during an earlier stage of the Bill’s passage? That provision is open-ended.
Yvette Cooper
I am in favour of a similar, or even more rapid, timetable for the civil partnerships review. In fact, during one of our earlier debates I said that I should like it to proceed alongside consideration of the Bill. Obviously it is for the Government to set the timetable, and, as the hon. Gentleman will know, many of the amendments are a result of discussion and compromise along the way, but I agree that rapid progress and consultation on the civil partnerships review would be useful.
Mr Burrowes
The right hon. Lady has just mentioned discussion and compromise. I am not sure whether we are going to discuss Lords amendment 53, which allows freedom of
“discussion or criticism of marriage”,
but I understand that Labour accepted it in the other place. Obviously such discourse should not be
“threatening or intended to stir up hatred.”
I understand that there was previously a commitment—which, indeed, was included in the Labour party manifesto —to repeal section 29JA of the Public Order Act 1986, the so-called Waddington amendment. Is it now the case that Labour would not proceed with that commitment if it ever had the opportunity to do so?
Yvette Cooper
We took the view that the amendment to the Public Order Act was not necessary, because there was already considerable protection for freedom of religion and freedom of speech. However, we accepted the Government’s amendment because we were content to accept a clarification of the Public Order Act, and because we thought it right to support the Bill. As I have said many times, the Bill is the product of a great deal of cross-party discussion and compromise on a number of issues which took place to ensure that progress could be made.
Other Members wanted to see further changes, but I think that there is already strong protection in case law, in primary legislation and, indeed, in the Human Rights Act for freedom of religion, freedom of belief and freedom of speech. Freedom of speech goes in both directions. Just as the Bill rightly respects and protects the freedom of belief of those who do not want to celebrate same-sex marriage as part of their religion, we should support and respect freedom of belief for faith groups who do want to celebrate it. It is worth reflecting on the fact that these amendments and these debates show just how far we have come in a short period of time for LGBT equality. When the Labour Government proposed changes to the law to get rid of section 28, to end the bar on serving in the armed forces, to end discrimination in employment, to allow gay adoption and to end discrimination in the provision of goods and services, each time there was strong opposition, but now those changes are taken for granted even by those who opposed them at the time.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
Does the right hon. Lady agree that it is not just attitudes in this House or the other place that have changed, but that there has been a fundamental change in attitudes among the British public? People’s attitudes to sexuality have changed in a very progressive way. A majority of people want to see the law changed. The polling shows a very clear skew between younger voters and older voters, too, so it is very clear in which direction public opinion is moving. That, more than anything, is the key force behind this Bill.
Yvette Cooper
The hon. Gentleman is exactly right about that change in attitudes, and we heard it from some Members in the House of Lords who now strongly support this Bill, having previously opposed other legislation that provided for equality in this area. As the legislation has changed, so attitudes have changed, and as the legislation has changed further, so attitudes have changed further. Step by step, the law and public attitudes have moved forward in a progressive way, and we need to complete those steps. I hope we will do so now with the passage of this Bill.
Ms Abbott
It is certainly the case that attitudes in this country have changed, but we have still to see more progress around the world. Just yesterday a prominent Cameroon gay rights activist was found murdered there. Their neck was broken and their body was broken. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this debate on this group of amendments this evening will encourage people all over the world to follow the progressive attitudes we are talking about?
Yvette Cooper
I agree with my hon. Friend. As the House of Lords was discussing these amendments, I was talking to some of those outside who were joining in the demonstrations in support of this Bill. There were some who are involved in Ugandan and Cameroon groups and organisations who are campaigning for basic human rights for people who live in those countries and can find themselves persecuted. They certainly do not enjoy equality before the law or basic human rights and respect for their freedom as well as for their relationships.
I hope this is not simply the end of a process, because this is not just about the legislation. It is also about how we make sure it is implemented in practice and how we go further in terms of equality. I hope that many of those who have opposed this Bill will come to celebrate it in future. I hope that many of the religious organisations and Churches whose religious freedom we have rightly respected and protected will also change their minds in future and celebrate the marriages of same-sex couples in their congregations. I hope, too, that all of us will do more to challenge discrimination and injustice wherever we find it—challenge prejudice and homophobic bullying in schools or the workplace—so that no one is discriminated against on grounds of sexuality and gender.
In previous debates on the Bill, I have quoted those who have been most affected by it, and I hope that you will indulge me, Mr Speaker, if I conclude my remarks on the amendments by quoting briefly from an e-mail from someone who has contacted me to tell me of his support for the legislation. It is important that we in the House hear the voices of those who are most heavily affected by the legislation that we are debating.
I received this e-mail from a 19-year-old man after the Bill had completed its previous stages in this House, and while it was being debated in the House of Lords. He was concerned that the House of Lords might somehow not pass the Bill, and he wrote this to me:
“Whilst I have known for a few years that I am gay, it was only five weeks ago that I came out to my parents and close friends. Prior to this, I had gone through an initial stage of denial and then a stage of acceptance but without having anyone to turn to. The progress of the Bill through Parliament has pushed LGBT equality up the political agenda and made me feel more accepted by the society in which I live....This legislation will help young people who find themselves in a similar situation that I was in a year ago. They will be assured in the knowledge that the law recognises their relationships equally to heterosexual relationships. I have struggled through this stage of my life and now live safe in the knowledge that my close family and friends accept me for who I am...History will most certainly be on your side. With the greatest sincerity, thank you.”
I want to conclude by saying to the House: thank you for supporting this legislation, and I hope that we will send it strongly on its way to Royal Assent this evening.
Mr Burrowes
I wish to speak to amendments 1 and 2. Throughout the passage of the Bill, Ministers have acted in good faith and with good intentions to make it clear that they did not want it to encroach on religious liberty. In fact, they have given a 100% guarantee on that. That guarantee has focused on religious premises and the wedding ceremony. Hon. Members have scrutinised the Bill in Committee, on Report and in the other place to determine how secure the locks will be. Scrutiny has been carried out by those who oppose the Bill, not by Her Majesty’s Opposition. In relation to the locks, I remember that not a single amendment was tabled in Committee to clauses 1 or 2, even though they cover a key aspect of the Bill—namely, the encroachment on religious liberty.