Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Mike Freer Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Yvette Cooper]

I thank my hon. Friend for that. My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston and my noble Friend Baroness Thornton have had many meetings with the British Humanist Association and have worked with the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who has been a keen supporter of enabling humanist weddings.

I turn to pension survivor benefits, on which a major amendment was passed in the other place. We want to ensure that through this Bill, we make some progress towards addressing the remaining pensions inequalities between same-sex and opposite-sex couples. Measures have already been taken to equalise survivor benefit entitlements for civil partners with those of widowers under public sector and contracted-out schemes, and I welcome that. However, the estimates of the cost of equalising the remaining differences in survivor benefits have so far been very wide ranging. Everyone has accepted that the equalisation of pensions would involve some small and direct cost to private pension schemes, and the Government have asserted at different stages that equalising the benefits for civil partners and married couples of the same sex could result in a wide range of costs, but we have never seen any breakdown of those costs or of how they are calculated.

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

Would the right hon. Lady be surprised to hear that neither the House of Commons Library nor the National Association of Pension Funds can provide a list of contracted-in schemes, which means that we cannot identify how the figure was calculated?

[Yvette Cooper]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We also tried to find out through the House of Commons Library and others how some of the costings produced by the Government could be calculated. Everybody wants to ensure that the approach to the legislation and to pensions is fiscally responsible, and we need to understand what the costs might be, so it has been very frustrating that we have not had a detailed breakdown that justifies the claims of large costs. That makes it implausible to many experts that such costs would accrue. Many experts believe that the costs would not be those that Ministers have suggested would be incurred at different stages. That is why it is right to make this progress in the legislation.

[Yvette Cooper]

I think the hon. Gentleman would agree that it is right to get an assessment of what the costs should be before making any decision. It is right to get the information, but unfortunately it has not been forthcoming. Although we have pressed the issue in the Commons and in meetings with Ministers, including the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb)—a member of the same party as the hon. Gentleman who will, I hope, encourage him to provide the detailed evidence we need—it looks to many experts as though the proposal is affordable, doable and will not incur the considerable costs that the Government have suggested. The amendment provides a sensible compromise that will not delay the progress of the Bill while allowing us to make some progress on pensions.

[Mike Freer]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady, who is being very generous in giving way. Does she agree that whatever the cost, when contribution rates are the same, whether someone is straight or gay, it is not equitable that the pension benefits are different? If people pay the same, they should get the same.

[Yvette Cooper]

The hon. Gentleman makes exactly the right point about the principle of equality that we should be pursuing. That is why we wanted to see progress made on the legislation. We supported the compromise position proposed by the Government so that we did not delay the Bill but could make progress towards ensuring that the costings were set out and we would have the power to make the changes and establish the equality we all want. That is the right approach.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Freer]

First, I pay tribute to both Front-Bench teams—both here and in the other place—for how they have steered the Bill through. I visited the other place and was quite impressed with the quality of the debate and its calmness.

On amendment 11, it is worth revisiting why the pension inequality has to be addressed. The inequality between survivor benefits of civil partners and married couples is simply not sustainable, but it is worth repeating that this issue relates to contracted-in schemes. The key point is that for a man or woman in what some would call a traditional marriage, the pension rights in the event of the partner’s death go back to the date the pension scheme was joined. If, however, someone is a surviving civil partner, even though the partner might have been in the scheme for 20 years, the pension rights go back only to the date when civil partnerships became law. I must point out that this is not just a fractional difference. In the example of John Walker, his civil partner would get a surviving pension of £500 a year. If the civil partnership were dissolved and he married a woman, she would be entitled to £41,000 a year in the form of a widow’s pension. That discrimination is simply not defensible.

The important message to remember is that although survivor benefits are currently unequal, contribution rates are not. Two men—one straight, one gay—both pay in at the same contribution rate. If their contribution rate is not determined by their sexuality, why should their pension be?

The bottom line is that if contributions are equal, pension benefits should be equal too. I welcome the review, because we can get to the bottom of how the figures were determined. As has been mentioned before, neither the Library nor the National Association of Pension Funds can help to identify the schemes. We do not know where the figure has come from. That is why the review is crucial, and the evidence session held by the Select Committee on Work and Pensions will add to the debate.

The House has spoken resoundingly on the issue, not once but twice. The other place spoke resoundingly in rejecting unhelpful amendments, and last night the Bill passed without a vote. Whatever personal objections colleagues have and however sincerely they are held, there comes a time when opponents have to bow their head to the will of this House and give way graciously.

Finally, I thank the Government for the Bill. When it receives Royal Assent, we will be helping to build a more tolerant society. We are saying to people tonight, “Whoever you are, whoever you love, you are respected and valued as an equal member of our society.” Members can go home tonight knowing that for once we have done some good and for once we have made a difference. I look forward to issuing wedding invitations in due course.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I am so pleased that tonight we will pass this Bill, which is clearly good news for the many gay couples across our country who want to get married. I also believe that it will be very good news to people in other countries—those lesbian and gay people who have to face unacceptable degrees of persecution every day of their lives. Members should make no mistake about it: there will be Commonwealth countries watching what we do tonight, and if we improve the lives of people who are treated unacceptably in those countries, we will have done a great good.

I do not know whether, in the short time remaining, I will be able to answer the points about the so-called chill, but I want to. We are not dealing with hypotheticals. Let us consider Catholic Spain, a country that for several years now has allowed the marriage of gay couples. I think there have been about 22,000 such marriages, yet not a single case has been brought to the European Court of Human Rights concerning a gay couple who wish to be married in church—