Great British Energy Bill (First sitting)

Wera Hobhouse Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Torcuil Crichton]

And economic benefit too, we hope.

Juergen Maier: Of course.

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

Q Good morning, Mr Maier. It is very good to see you here. I have some questions about the overall aims that the Bill and the company are trying to achieve. You have just said that it will be an enabler, so we have to imagine it as something that will happen before any contracts for difference are attributed. It is an enabler to make people and companies ready to bid into the CfDs, for example. Is that how you see the role? People are used to the status quo, and the CfDs have been very successful. Some companies are wondering how it is all going to fit together.

Juergen Maier: Certainly the enabling part of what we do will be pre-CfDs, as you say. That is also where our partnership with the Crown Estate comes in. This is where we will be doing a lot of the early consenting and engaging on the willingness to co-invest and give confidence, but we will also be there past the CfDs. As and when the schemes get developed, there may be opportunities to come in and be a co-investor. We would also be supporting that.

[Wera Hobhouse]

So—

[The Chair]

Order. Is this within the scope of the Bill? Our last question will be at 9.47 am, and four more Members have indicated that they wish to come in.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Q Does the Bill give us enough clarity? How will other financial institutions, such as the UK Infrastructure Bank or the British Business Bank, support what GB Energy is trying to do? The Bill is very short, so I wonder whether there is enough scope within it to explain that to investors.

Juergen Maier: There will be two things. The Bill clearly sets out the structure of how we will set up Great British Energy and the key areas of focus. Obviously there will then be a business plan and a framework agreement between us and the Secretary of State, in which we will have to clarify exactly those questions and where Great British Energy and the UKIB take their role. Those are things that will need to be clarified, but I do not think that putting them in the Bill would particularly help us to do that.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Q I have one last question about the timeframes, which are very vague. The Bill states:

“The Secretary of State must prepare a statement of strategic priorities for Great British Energy.”

Do you have any idea of when we can expect that statement to be laid before Parliament?

Juergen Maier: I am not sure of the exact timings. Maybe when you get evidence from the Minister he will be able to put a time on that.

[Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)]

Q Mr Maier, you have talked about how local communities will benefit from community energy; you mentioned floating offshore wind off the east coast of the United Kingdom. Down in Cornwall, we are very close to the Celtic sea opportunity, which is between us and Wales. Could you elaborate on the benefits, particularly the social benefits, that may come from the Celtic sea development in an area like Cornwall, which is one of the most deprived in the UK?

Juergen Maier: Indeed. The earlier question was pointed at the north-east and Aberdeen, hence my response, but you are right. As a matter of fact, the two key areas where floating offshore wind will be developed are in the north-east and in the Celtic sea. From a logistics point of view, you could not put them further apart, so it is not exactly ideal—

--- Later in debate ---

[Wera Hobhouse]

Q Good morning. I want to come back to clause 5 of the Bill, which is about the statement of strategic priorities. Most of what I have heard this morning is that we are a bit worried about there not being enough detail on certain things. Should there be more detail about the strategic priorities in the Bill, such as job creation, or should there be a precise timeline for when we can actually expect that? The whole purpose of the Bill is to speed up all that energy transition, and currently we do not know when we will see a statement. Is it important that we actually get some timelines in the Bill?

Mike Clancy: The simple answer is yes. The longer there is a concept phase, albeit a positive concept phase, the more that we are talking about a multiplier effect from GBE in many respects. If GBE is delivered, starts to operate and gives confidence to the direction of energy policy, other investors will see this as a serious proposition and therefore we will be engaging in this huge process of energy transition.

As I said just a moment ago, it also means that talented people can see a future. We want to be part of that. So, within the process of parliamentary drafting, the more that we have a clear set of objectives—actually differentiating it as a public entity and setting the tone for what you want from energy assets in the future—the better, because that will give that confidence. That also has a knock-on effect for the confidence of private investors in other parts of the energy environment.

[Uma Kumaran]

Q Thank you both. I really welcome hearing the views of trade unions in this session, especially about keeping workers at the heart of this. Do you think that GB Energy can help to drive the demand for skills and apprenticeships and prepare our workforce for a just transition?

Mika Minio-Paluello: There is a lot of demand at the moment, and a part of the challenge is a significant lack of supply. Part of the reason for that lack of supply is that there is a lack of investment. We as a country have not invested into our workforce sufficiently over time, which is why you get into a situation where different sectors effectively end up poaching people who are most in demand.

GB Energy provides a mechanism as part of solving that. It will not solve it as a whole—the Government have other plans as well to try put that investment in— but it can have a significant role in going, “Yes, here, we are going to provide that long-term investment directly.” Also, clearly, GB Energy will be partnering with the private sector. In that co-operation, it can then say, through its procurement powers, “Okay, in our joint project on this big offshore wind farm, we are going to require the supply chain across the board to be investing into apprenticeships, whether that is one, two or three tiers down,” so that we get that overall growth. It therefore can play a significant role there.

Mike Clancy: I have already touched on this. It might sound strange, but we probably have a bit of a mission at present because of the constraints applied by the previous Administration to remove our members in technical occupations in the energy field from the public sphere, because the labour markets that they operate in reward better in the private sector. The private sector is in a war for talent in this area because, in this country, over the many decades, we have not valued STEM skills and engineering. I speak as a humanities graduate who is always in awe of people who actually go to institutions and learn things that matter and are then applied for the health of the nation.

We have to start with valuing STEM—valuing it on a diverse basis, ensuring that the workforce reflects our diversity objectives more generally—and having a clear understanding that, even within Government, there can be an element of robbing one to pay for the other, such as with defence and aviation. Lots of areas need these STEM skills, which are then easily transferable into digital skills, and there are better salaries for some of those elsewhere.

If you want to deliver that promise about high-quality jobs, you really have to think and have a labour-market strategy for GB Energy that works in this competitive context at all levels—from apprenticeship, through to technical, through to engineering and even through to doctoral level. Again, in terms of the direction and objectives of the Bill, it is about being an exemplar for the entire energy sector in relation to the skills matrix, with how people are employed and the diversity objectives that any public company should have. That is what the Bill should try to address in sufficient detail.

--- Later in debate ---

[Torcuil Crichton]

Yes, what can the Bill and GB Energy itself do?

Ravi Gurumurthy: I have already articulated what it can do on the development side to get rid of some of the risks to do with planning, consenting, grid connection and so on. On the more novel technologies—small modular reactors, floating wind, tidal range and so on—I think we have also talked about how if the state is co-investing in some way, it signals a degree of commitment and insulates companies slightly from the risks. In both the investor and developer roles, GB Energy can play a role in accelerating things. The biggest way in which the state can de-risk investment and increase private sector contribution is through the National Energy System Operator, providing a clear, strategic plan and forward visibility of what is happening in terms of technology and location. That is how I think we will get the investment—not just in the assets, but in the supply chain as well.

Shaun Spiers: On clean, flexible power, what Green Alliance has proposed is a sort of vaccine taskforce-style operation to crowd in all potential technologies for this. It is not clear who would fund it, if GB Energy did not. That is a really important part of 2030 power decarbonisation. There is also the local power plan. The previous Government had a plan—I think it was in 2014—to power 1 million homes by community energy, which was abandoned four years later with about 67,000 homes powered. There is a clear remit here for making community energy economically viable and getting local investment in community energy.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Q I want to come back to what Shaun said a little earlier about the slight risk of the great power that the Secretary of State has. Do you think that there should be some protection in the Bill for communities, so that they can have a say? We also know that quite a lot of the delivery of our new transition infrastructure might be delayed because communities are not entirely certain, for instance. Is there a risk, and should there be something in the Bill that protects communities, so that they can be confident they are part of the transition and are being listened to?

Shaun Spiers: I think a nature recovery or nature protection duty in the Bill would be helpful in reassuring communities. The investment in community energy, where people really have a stake in the energy, will take some of the sting out of the opposition to renewables, but I would not overload the Bill with things that are better dealt with in the planning system. This is a Bill to enable a lot of investment in achieving a decarbonised power system and long-term energy security. To try to overload it with things that are best dealt with in other parts of government, or other legislation, would be a mistake.

[Wera Hobhouse]

So the Bill is sufficient in protecting communities?

Shaun Spiers: I would like to see a nature recovery duty in the Bill.

[Catherine Fookes]

Q Welcome to the participants. My question follows on beautifully from Shaun’s comments around community. How do we think that GB Energy can accelerate and drive investment in the development of community enterprise and community energy?

Shaun Spiers: One thing that is necessary to say is that this is a major part of the transition and a priority of the Government. That was the case for periods during the coalition, when there was a really vibrant community energy movement and a sense in which people were coming around to supporting renewable energy—which otherwise they would have opposed—because they could see they had a financial stake in it but had also been engaged in developing it. What snuffed that out had more to do with planning issues than with investment, but there are ways in which GB Energy can pump-prime some of the investment.

I am trying to think back to the community energy manifesto we put together in 2018. I cannot think of any specific things, but I can write to the Committee, if that is helpful. There are specific financial incentives that would help get this off the ground. To be honest, though, communities across the country were really keen on community energy. It was a vibrant movement and could be again, with the right political framework as much as investment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Josh MacAlister]

Q Dan McGrail, this is a question for you. What are the views of your private sector members about the role that GB Energy can play in de-risking investments and crowding in private sector investment? What are they saying at the moment?

Dan McGrail: Occupying space where there is a highly liquid market for private capital is unlikely to bring much additionality. Offshore wind is one of those places —fixed-bottom offshore wind, to be precise. That is a mature market; there is capital that will flow to projects if the wider investment conditions of those projects are right, and that is more Government policy-related. However, there are other markets. For example, onshore wind in England has basically been under-invested in for the past decade. There will still be nervousness within the private sector: “Do I want to be the first developer to test local planning? What does the risk profile of that look like?”

I see a clear role for GB Energy to partner with the private sector to help to accelerate the return of investment in that market, or for example within the growth of the floating offshore wind market, where there are clear opportunities that go beyond just the energy sector and into transition, such as floating offshore wind in Scotland or in the Celtic sea, where we know that there is a much bigger economic growth story. Those are areas where I think we could see public and private capital working very comfortably together.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Q We had a line of questioning around research and development. Do you think it is important that the Bill is future-proofed in that way—that GB Energy really focuses on those markets and those projects where the private investors would not come in behind? Is there any way in which the Bill could strengthen that? Research and innovation is probably one of the main focuses of what GB Energy can deliver successfully.

Adam Berman: A fundamental conundrum with GB Energy will be the extent to which, through legislation, you want to constrain its investment activities. Clearly, from an industry perspective, we are very keen that there be an emphasis on additionality, on complementing and not duplicating private sector capital that is already there.

Dan mentioned wind. The recent CfD allocation round 6 auction crowded in about £20 billion of private sector investment—that is one year and one auction. That is not to say that £8.3 billion capitalised over a Parliament is not a significant sum of money; it is to say that if we want the most bang for buck, it is absolutely about thinking about those areas where it can be complementary to the private sector. On the one hand I am saying that, yes, industry would be very happy for GB Energy to have that as a focus, but it is also fair to say that it would be a restriction in GB Energy’s activities if it were only to engage in a space that enabled additionality, because it would restrict some of the investment portfolio that it could end up with.

Dan McGrail: The private sector and the industry in general have been quite clear that we see a real benefit in the participation of GB Energy in emergent technology, such as tidal energy. However, even within the five founding statements, there is nothing specific about fostering UK home-grown innovation. I would err on the side of caution within legislation, or at least I would not put it as a boundary condition. It should not be the only thing, but if it were somewhere in the plan—either in the founding statements, if they get modified, or in the plans brought forward by the Secretary of State—that would be healthy.

[Catherine Fookes]

Q It is good to see you both. You were not here for the earlier sessions, but there were a lot of questions about whether there is enough detail in the Bill. Before I was an MP, I used to be the CEO of a charity; if the objects of that charity had gone into an incredible amount of detail telling me exactly what to do, it would have been very difficult 10 years down the line, when I joined the charity, to pivot and do what we did. I think you are absolutely right: we are hearing from every single witness that the Bill needs to be general enough to allow the business plan to be developed by the experts running the company. You are chiming with everyone else, which is interesting and good.

My question is about tidal power. I represent a Welsh constituency, Monmouthshire. We have the River Severn in the south of the constituency, which is a tidal river, and we have the Celtic sea. What opportunities will the Bill give to generate more tidal power?

Dan McGrail: The Bill allows space for GB Energy to take quite an activist role in the sector. I am aware of tidal power companies that are already very keen to engage with GB Energy on specific proposals. One thing about tidal power is that we have seen the success of many projects through the CfD auctions. We need to see them come to investment decisions. The more we can see a state actor enabling companies to take decisions, the more it will help to scale up the industry and then the technologies. From the technologies, we can hopefully deliver the kind of supply chain growth and jobs in local communities to which we all aspire.