Criminal Justice Bill

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 15th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Laura Farris]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising that point. We are encountering a rapidly changing world of deepfake images that can be used for the purposes of manipulating voices to try to influence political attitudes and choices. I have to make it clear that the new clause is confined only to the creation of sexually explicit images. However, it is my hope, humbly expressed at this Dispatch Box, that it may provide a gateway and lever for the development of more law in this area, and I thank her for her intervention.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

I particularly thank the Minister for this new clause. It obviously only covers adults, because producing sexual content of children is already illegal, but I am told that since the Government announced their intention to move the new clause, Apple and Google have already removed from their app stores a number of apps that were enabling users to produce deepfake nudes. Those applications have been used to create indecent images of children, as well as of adults. Disabling those apps has already helped to keep the public safe and to significantly improve the safeguarding of children. Just by tabling the new clause, the Government have already forced the industry to act in the UK.

[Laura Farris]

That is music to our ears. It was not lost on us that, within days of making the announcement, two of the major deepfake or nudify sites had blocked access to UK users in anticipation of the fact that even the act of using that site would become a criminal offence under our impending legislation.

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Although there has been work on this complex issue, there is no definitive progress as yet. Perhaps the Minister could give some indication as to the Government’s current thinking when she winds up the debate. I will continue to chase progress, because I believe this is a matter of common sense and justice. I hope the Government will offer some support, hope and peace of mind for my constituents Paul and Gemma and, no doubt, for many others across the constituency.

[Vicky Ford]

Before speaking to new clauses 25 and 26 in my name, I want to say that it was a huge honour and privilege to serve in Committee, where we did a huge amount of work on the Bill. We can all see elements of the Bill that affect our constituencies. In Chelmsford, outlawing the scanners that thieves use to intercept car key signals so that they can drive away with our vehicles is welcome. Essex’s police and crime commissioner has campaigned for the new knife crime laws. Along with others, I have campaigned and lobbied the Minister for the amendments she tabled on spiking. I also support the amendments before us today on a huge range of matters, including the ones on dangerous cycling, cuckooing and revenge porn.

This shows the Bill’s incredibly wide scope, which provides an opportunity to update crucial laws in so many areas. Faint-hearted or cowardly Ministers would not have given us a Bill with such broad scope. They would have shied away from it, fearing having so many amendments and so many areas of controversy. They would have feared colleagues tabling amendments to play political games, and they would not have taken the risk. Ministers have done the right thing by introducing a Bill with such broad scope. They recognise that even the best laws sometimes need a fresh pair of eyes, because situations change, and they want our laws in this country to be the best they can possibly be. I thank them for not shying away from the work and for being so brave in allowing these discussions to happen.

My amendments are far from playing political games. They propose extremely important laws to protect children from the vilest of vile crimes—child sexual abuse and, particularly, online child sexual abuse. There is a good reason why, for so many decades, it has been illegal for people to have images of child sexual abuse on their computer, because we know that people who look at this sort of content are more likely to step from the visual world into the real world to abuse children. I would argue that people who abuse children in the virtual world are even more likely to go on to abuse real children.

New clause 25 would update our laws on paedophile manuals to include AI-generated material. New clause 26, which would also update the law for the rapid evolution of AI, would make it illegal to use digital tools such as bots or avatars to simulate sexual communication with a child. This would include acts such as creating a bot or avatar to rape a child in the digital world.

I thank the Internet Watch Foundation for its work on these new clauses, which are supported by the police lead on child sexual abuse and others. Artificial intelligence is developing extraordinarily rapidly. There has been an explosion in AI content, and the consequences of that in the dark world of child sexual abuse are devastating. AI-generated images are becoming so widespread on the internet that when the IWF conducted a snapshot study between September and October of just one dark web forum, it discovered that more than 20,000 AI-generated images of child sexual abuse had been uploaded in just that one month on that one forum. These images are now so realistic that it is incredibly difficult for law enforcement agencies to tell the difference between real images of real children, who need real safeguarding, and those that have been generated using AI.

I turn to new clause 26. Under section 15A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, it is an offence to communicate sexually with a child. The new clause creates a new offence of simulating sexual activity with a child; this includes using, creating or sharing bots or other tools to simulate sexual communication with children. I am told that in online paedophile communities there is always a desire to utilise technology to bring the fantasies of child sexual abuse closer to a reality. The evolution of AI technology is seen as the ultimate solution—it is grim; it allows child abusers to feel as close to the sensation of interacting with and abusing a real child as possible without actually committing the physical act of abusing a child. However, just as we know that a person who regularly views image of CSA is more likely to sexually abuse a real child, it is absolutely clear that a person who abuses a virtual child, or directs an online companion or bot to do so, is much more likely to go on to abuse a real one.

[Dame Maria Miller]

My right hon. Friend is dealing with an issue that demonstrates the type of issue pervading all of this Bill. Again, I pay tribute to all the people who served on the Bill Committee and dealt with such a difficult range of issues, as they have done a great service to our House.

[Vicky Ford]

On behalf of all of us who served on the Committee, I thank my right hon. Friend for that. I should say that the Ministers and shadow Ministers did a huge amount of work on the Bill.

To put it simply, the online act of abuse lowers the bar to physical offending. There is huge concern regarding the development of AI chatbots and the ease, speed, and quality with which text-to-image-based generative AI tools have been developed. Furthermore, it is important to recognise that this is becoming a risk to massive numbers of children. The National Crime Agency estimates that approximately 680,000 to 830,000 people in the UK—between 1.3% and 1.6% of the adult population—pose some form of sexual threat to children.

Android and iOS app stores have a plentiful supply of AI companion apps. They enable the user to create an imaginary online friend, to choose what that friend looks like and to direct what they do. The three largest apps have already received well over 1 million downloads each. Within minutes of downloading one of these popular apps, law enforcement operatives were able to have an interactive communication with an AI chatbot discussing the abduction, sexual abuse, torture and murder of an eight-year-old girl.

Furthermore, through monitoring offender discussions online, we know that technically capable users are actively building AI chatbot companions specifically for the purpose of having realistic, paedophilic role-plays involving AI child avatars. Ian Critchley, the national police lead on child protection, has warned that the metaverse creates a

“gateway for predators to commit horrific crimes against children”.

There are many stories of child avatars having been subjected to the most hideous of rapes. In evidence to the Education Committee, of which I am a member, the Children’s Commissioner described a child who had

“virtually experienced being raped and sexually abused.”

She said that we must not think that that type of rape is not traumatic, just because it happens in an online world. It is traumatic. It is abuse, and it can be part of grooming. She warned us legislators to

“not underestimate the safeguarding issues”.

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[Laura Farris]

I listened very carefully to what my right hon. Friend said, and I agree with every single word of it. Some of this sits with the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, as she knows, so I would need to have a conversation with the relevant Minister, but I feel as strongly as she does on this matter, and I assure her from the Dispatch Box that I will use my best endeavours.

The road traffic amendments, which I will talk about briefly, were beautifully presented during the Committee and again today. I have spoken a few times with the Members who tabled them, who are well aware that those matters sit with the Department for Transport. I understand that they have had engagement with the Department and that an important review of this issue has certainly been contemplated.

[Vicky Ford]

I apologise to my hon. Friend—I was briefly out of the Chamber, discussing my amendments with the Home Secretary. It is clear that AI technology is moving incredibly quickly in a vile, disgusting way that is putting children at risk of sexual abuse. Could my hon. Friend repeat the commitment she has given: that she will work with me on the two areas that my amendments have highlighted, and will work with me, the IWF and others to ensure that the issues we have pinpointed are addressed as the Bill goes through this House and the Lords?

[Laura Farris]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her intervention, and I am sorry that we somehow did not manage to overlap when I made my comments about her. I thought her speech was outstanding, and I agree without hesitation: she is quite right to say that we need to future-proof our legislation. As I said, I think we are the first country—if not, we are one of the first—to put an offence on to the books relating to the creation of deepfakes, which shows that we are alive and very responsive to this issue. I will make the commitments that my right hon. Friend has requested.

[Vicky Ford]

To be clear, is the Minister giving a cast-iron guarantee that we will address these issues of paedophile manuals and using a chatbot to communicate sexually, including raping a child through a chatbot, by working with the IWF and others to ensure that the laws are clear, and that if necessary, there will be amendments in the Lords?

[Laura Farris]

Yes, I can give my right hon. Friend that commitment.

I was interrupted, but I was briefly paying tribute to the very passionate speeches that have been made about road traffic accidents. These are not small matters—the case of the little girl in the constituency of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones) is such a painful one, and I know that the Transport Secretary and other Ministers have been very affected by it. As the hon. Member knows, this matter is not straightforward for reasons that we have discussed, but I hope progress will be made on it in a way that helps his constituent.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) made an excellent speech on the offence of causing death or serious injury by dangerous, careless or inconsiderate cycling. It is not in dispute that whether a vehicle is a car, an electric scooter or a bicycle, if it is operated in a certain way, it is effectively a dangerous weapon on the road. We are supportive of my right hon. Friend’s amendment, and we will be bringing it back in the Lords; we will be changing it in the Lords, as he knows, but we are accepting it.

I think I have covered all the amendments that have been selected.

Oral Answers to Questions

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Monday 15th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Laura Farris]

May I just gently tell the hon. Lady that, in the last round of funding, round 4, Merseyside received £1.3 million through the safer streets fund— that was quadruple what it had received in round 3—and over half a million of that was designated specifically to CCTV and street lighting in Liverpool city centre? Round 5 should be seen in the context of record funding to the Merseyside police, who received an unprecedented uplift of £27.6 million—a 6.5% uplift. I am confident that Merseyside will still be able to deliver its schemes, including the safe home cards providing safe transport to help women get home from nightspots, in this round.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

In Essex, the police, fire and crime commissioner Roger Hirst has used the safer streets money to pay for CCTV and safety measures in the Bunny Walks, to pay for safety improvements around Chelmsford Prison to keep residents safe, and more recently for CCTV cameras in Central Park and the Avenues and extra safety measures around the cathedral. Despite all this the local Lib Dems want to take credit for all of Roger’s work, so will the Home Secretary pop down to Chelmsford to come and see me and Roger and make sure we say thank you to Roger for all he has done with this Government money to keep people safe?

[Laura Farris]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her question. She is correct. Roger Hirst has an exceptional track record as a police and crime commissioner. He has done outstanding work driving down antisocial behaviour and domestic burglary and the examples she gives are exactly what the safer streets fund is for: bespoke, local, dedicated services that will improve public protection. I know that Essex police have higher numbers than at any point in their 185-year history, and I will certainly urge the Home Secretary to pay them a visit at the next available opportunity.

Criminal Justice Bill (Fifteenth sitting)

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Jess Phillips]

For nearly 10 years I have had Ministers stand in front of me and say, “We are a bit worried about” some legal word or other. How many children have died because of family court proceedings in the 10 years that we have been trying to raise the alarm? The family courts in our country will be the next Rotherham or Rochdale. State-sanctioned child abuse is going on and we all just turn a blind eye. The things that I have seen in courts are harrowing. I have watched children being removed from their loving mothers and placed fully in the care of paedophiles—proven child abusers. For me, we cannot casually sit here and pretend that that is okay.

Funnily enough, one of the people I started this campaign with, all those years ago, was the current Justice Secretary. Why is it taking so long to do something about the family courts in our country? They are actively dangerous, everybody knows it and nobody is doing anything about it. It is like the Post Office; I will not be one of those people who sat by and did nothing.

I will not press the new clause to a Division, because its scope is not wide enough and does not deal with half the harms that I see. If the Minister wants to take away the parental responsibility for children from terrorists she can knock herself out—I will support it. I will support any movement towards progress in the family court, because I have seen none. I look forward to the Government coming forward with an all-singing, all-dancing proposal that will make children safe. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mrs Latham. I find it really hard to hear my colleagues in this room. Could I ask you, and other hon. Members, to please speak as loudly as possible?

[The Chair]

I agree. I do not think the microphones are doing a very good job today, so I will try to speak up.

New Clause 5

Sexual interference with a corpse

“(1) The Sexual Offences Act 2003 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 70, insert—

‘70A Sexual interference with a corpse

(1) A person “P” commits an offence if—

(a) P intentionally performs an act of physical interference with the body of a dead person, and

(b) the physical interference is sexual.

(2) For the purposes of this section, physical interference may include—

(a) P touching the body of a dead person with any part of P’s own body, and

(b) P causing any item or substance to make contact with the body of a dead person.

(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years.’”—(Stephen Metcalfe.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

Criminal Justice Bill (Ninth sitting)

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 18th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

The Minister is making an important point. An excellent point was also made by my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley on the importance of prisoners being close to their family.

There is a very busy local prison in my constituency of Chelmsford. From time to time, I get the prison governor and other experts explaining to me that sometimes it is important to split people up. For example, if people have come from the same criminal gang or opposing criminal gangs, it can be important to move them so that they are not all in the same prison. There are parts of the country where getting “overseas” can sometimes be easier than visiting a family member who may, for example, be a long distance away in our own country. Sometimes, cases are different and are not about making sure that the prisoner stays in the local prison. That might not provide the best circumstances for that prisoner’s rehabilitation.

[Laura Farris]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her intervention. She is quite right. I will try to distil her point. I expected the challenge from the Opposition this morning about the circumstances of each prisoner being vital—whether they have family or connections—but it is true, as she said, that some prisoners will not have family or connections; there may be different imperatives. Obviously, we would be looking precisely at considerations of that nature before making a decision about prison transfer.

It is not possible to say that every prisoner needs to be imprisoned locally or is going to be the primary carer for all their children. Look at how decisions on the deportation of foreign national offenders are made by the immigration appeal tribunal: if an offender who has committed a serious offence tries to rely on the fact they have children in the UK, the tribunal will very often say, “You have already abandoned them because you were in prison for 10 years.” Some of that claim is lost anyway.

Criminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 11th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire (Chris Philp)]

It is a huge pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Dame Angela, as it will be in the Committee’s sittings in coming days.

I will not try to respond to the shadow Minister’s opening remarks in any detail, as we debated the wider issues on Second Reading, but I will observe in passing that we have record numbers of police officers, and overall crime, measured by the crime survey on a like-for-like basis, is 56% lower today than it was in 2010.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Hear, hear!

[Chris Philp]

I am glad that has met with approval, from Essex at least.

Tackling Spiking

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Laura Farris]

I pay tribute to all the right hon. Lady’s work individually and as part of the Home Affairs Committee. I do not want her to be left with the impression that there is a lack of complete commitment on this issue. As I hinted at in the statement, and for the purpose of brevity, some training happens already for bar staff. There is probably a gap with how much those working on the doors know, and they are critical first responders to these cases, which is why I mentioned them. She should not interpret anything in this report as evidence of a lack of ambition by the Government. My statement today is to assure her that we have given this issue our full commitment.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Chelmsford is home to a vibrant night-time economy, with lots of very popular bars, clubs and restaurants. We also have a really strong reputation for being a safe place to enjoy a night out, but from time to time even in Chelmsford stories of spiking come to light. I therefore warmly welcome this package of initiatives, in particular the promise to modernise the law to make it crystal clear that spiking, whether in a drink, through a needle or via a vape, is illegal. It is very timely, as the Criminal Justice Bill is going through Parliament right now and we can put it into law quickly. Does the Minister agree with me and very many campaigners that clarifying the law will act as a strong deterrent to perpetrators and thus help keep women safe?

[Laura Farris]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend and thank her for her question. First, as I said, the purpose of clarifying the law is to empower more people to be clear on their rights and to come forward. But it is also the case that by having a clear offence in which spiking is defined, the police will be able to use the data of people who come forward and report a spiking incident. That will allow us to build a much more accurate picture, through the criminal justice system, of the extent to which this offence occurs.

Spiking

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Thursday 14th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Caroline Nokes (in the Chair)]

I am pleased with the promotion.

[Vicky Ford]

Thank you, Ms Nokes; it is an honour to serve under your chairmanship. I thank the hon. Member for Bradford South (Judith Cummins) for giving us the opportunity to discuss spiking again. My constituency of Chelmsford is home to a vibrant and much-enjoyed night-time economy. We have many bars, clubs and restaurants. People come up to Chelmsford to enjoy a night out, not only from Essex, but even from London. We are very proud of our safety record. Chelmsford holds a Purple Flag for safety in the night-time economy, and we did not just get that Purple Flag this year or last year; we have had it every year for the past 10 years. We have a wonderful reputation for keeping people safe, and we want to keep it that way.

From time to time, however, some dreadful stories come to light even in Chelmsford. In February, a very brave woman shared the story of what happened to her when she was out in Chelmsford with a group of girlfriends. She had only had one cocktail when she started to feel dizzy and sick, and then she suddenly started to have spasms. Fortunately, her friends acted quickly. He mum came and collected her and brought her straight to A&E at the local hospital. A video was then shared of her when she was at A&E. Her body was contorting and she was groaning, “I want to die.” She had a complete lack of control of her own body. That went on for six hours. When she came round, she noticed a small mark on her arm and that her arm was painful. She believes that she was stabbed and spiked. Goodness knows what would have happened to her if she had left the bar, left her friends and been all alone in the dark when that occurred. How vulnerable would that young woman have been?

I would like to thank my local police, who treat this problem very seriously. They have been working very actively on hotspot policing in Chelmsford city centre for the last few weekends, including last Saturday and Sunday night, when they were doing spiking awareness campaigns in the bars, clubs and restaurants. I would also like to thank the owners of the many bars, clubs and restaurants, who I know also treat women’s safety seriously. I have been in with many of them to discuss the CCTV arrangements that they have in place to monitor safety, and the fact that many of them make available stoppers or covers for your drinks bottle or glass. But why should a woman have to put a stopper in her drink? Why should she have to put a cover on her glass? Why should she not feel safe just to lift up her own drink that she has bought to enjoy with her friends, and take a little sip from it? Spiking is abhorrent, it is intolerable, and it is unlawful. It must not be allowed to continue. Perpetrators must not get away with this.

Spiking is illegal, but the law against it is incredibly outdated. It goes back to the Offences against the Person Act 1861. I happen to be one of the small number of Members of this House who is currently serving on the Public Bill Committee for the Criminal Justice Bill that is going through Parliament right now. On Tuesday this week, we took evidence from real experts. I asked some of them whether they felt there was a need to modernise this legislation and make the language absolutely crystal clear—in terms that people will understand today—and they agreed. They agreed that spiking is unlawful, but that the language needs updating.

I know I am joined by colleagues in this place today who also agree that updating the language of the law will help to lead to more prosecutions and make it absolutely clear to those who want to commit this type of offence that it will not be tolerated, and therefore it will act as a deterrent.

[Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend will be aware that the private Member’s Bill that I introduced faced an analogous problem: there was no specific criminal offence against the public harassment of women. For a long time that was considered unnecessary, so these crimes—as they were—were under-reported. Now there is a specific criminal offence; it is clearly illegal to abuse someone on the grounds of their sex in public. I am pleased to say that was backed by the Government and the Home Office. Is that not a precedent that the Minister may wish to draw on to make progress in this very important area that the hon. Member for Bradford South (Judith Cummins) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) are highlighting?

[Vicky Ford]

I absolutely agree, and I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) for the work he has done on women’s safety. We must make it crystal clear that this offence, which can affect men but most usually affects women—often young women —is unacceptable. We must have that law in language that people today understand with great clarity.

I thank my great and hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester, who has campaigned on this issue so relentlessly and so effectively. Two weeks ago, it was an honour to join him in a meeting with the new Home Secretary. The new Home Secretary is one of my Essex constituency neighbours; I know that constituents of his come to my constituency for their nights out, and I also know that he cares deeply about the safety of women. Together, we pressed the case that there needed to be a specific criminal offence for spiking. The Home Secretary listened intently to the case that we made, and I ask him, through my right hon. Friend the Minister here today, to please act now. Table an amendment to the Bill that is going through Parliament now. I know I speak for all members of the Public Bill Committee when I say if that amendment is tabled, we will pass it and have it on the face of the Bill by the time it comes back to the whole House.

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[Caroline Nokes]

Of course I agree with my hon. Friend. He is absolutely right. That brings me to the Home Office’s own campaign, Enough, which, people will be relieved to hear, is my closing point. A message I would like to give the Minister very clearly, which is driven by the comments I have gleaned from Spike Aware UK, is that it is not enough for the Enough campaign to focus its activities around universities. By the time a young person has reached the grand old age of 18, that horse may already have bolted. We know from the excellent work of the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) and her Select Committee, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester rightly paid tribute, that many spiking incidents happen at house parties. We like to think that when we are surrounded by our friends, we will be okay. Sadly, the truth is that young people under the age of 18 will attend house parties and young people under the age of 18 will be spiked at house parties. They are vulnerable when they are at school and college.

[Vicky Ford]

My right hon. Friend is making an excellent point. I recently met a group of sixth-formers from one of my Chelmsford schools. The point they made to me was that, while it is all very well to give awareness to young women when they start university about how to stay safe, they turn 18 before they leave school and would quite like to go and celebrate their 18th birthday parties together. Does she agree with me that more could be done through the school curriculum and at school age to prepare people for turning 18?

[Caroline Nokes]

My right hon. Friend anticipates where my speech was going. On the Enough campaign, I think it is right to focus on freshers’ week, which is a particular area of vulnerability, but by the time young people are 18 it is too late in some instances. Many will turn 18 while they are still at school and college. The Government’s statutory requirement for relationships, sex and health education finishes at 16, so when someone becomes a practitioner between the ages of 16 and 18, they are not supported.

I gently say to the Security Minister—in the same way that I would have said and, indeed, have said to the current safeguarding Minister, the previous safeguarding Minister and the one before—that RSHE needs to be inclusive up to the age of 18. My Select Committee has called for that in one of our reports, and it is crucial. The RSHE review needs to focus not on gender issues, but on the everyday problems that our young people face on their journey to adulthood, which include drugs, spiking, normal adult sexual relationships and trying not to learn about them from pornography. We have to be bolder when we are talking about what is and is not age appropriate. We have to equip young people to be cognisant of the risks, challenges and difficulties they will face, whether financial or anything else, through a programme of RSHE that is effective and preferably taught by experts, rather than the maths teacher on a Friday afternoon.

I commend the Enough programme. I celebrate it: I have a sticker on my office door—what a shame that I feel the need to say “Enough” here. The stark reality is that we have to ensure that we are taking the lead of brilliant organisations such as Stamp Out Spiking and Spike Aware UK, so that young people have all the tools in their armoury to be protected as they move into adulthood.

I have a final message for the Minister. I have absolutely no doubt that he will be encouraging and positive about this issue, because he is a good Minister and understands how important it is. He will have heard the strength of feeling across the Chamber on the need for specific legislation. I look forward, with my fingers crossed and my hopes high, to exactly that. My final plea, which I have made to a number of Home Office Ministers over many years, is that we must look at RSHE as an opportunity to equip young people with better skills to lead their adult lives. I know that the Minister will pass on this message to the safeguarding Minister: please play an active role, by working with the Department for Education and the myriad other Departments that touch the lives of young people, in ensuring that the RSHE review is fit for the 21st century, in the same way that we should have a piece of legislation on spiking that is fit for the 21st century.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Tugendhat]

My hon. Friend knows that I cannot make any announcement at all. I am merely positive as to the direction; it really is for the Minister for Safeguarding, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury to announce the Home Office position. I am sure she will do so as soon as she is able. She has arrived in the Department with a determination and with inspiring energy. She is not only an excellent colleague in her role as a Member of Parliament, but a fantastic ministerial colleague, and she will add hugely to the job of safeguarding the people of the United Kingdom, particularly those who are vulnerable in the evening. I do not want to say any more for fear of jumping ahead of myself. She has already done a huge amount of work, and I am sure that, if she is able, she will make further announcements

On the legislation, I want to make it clear that spiking is already illegal because various pieces of legislation set out prohibitions that incorporate the offence of spiking and they can be used to prosecute offenders. We have worked closely with the police to establish the range of powers that are currently available to them and the best methods of enforcement.

However, we are mindful that the modern offence has particularly insidious features, and we are carefully considering the range of views that have been expressed on this, especially from Conservative colleagues who have made compelling arguments on this matter. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) who has spoken very powerfully about this not only during this debate, but on many other occasions. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester likewise has in many ways not only led this debate today, but over many years. My right hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North has led many of these arguments for many years.

[Vicky Ford]

We may be able to make more progress on awareness. My right hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) made a point about the importance of giving evidence and how quickly evidence can disappear in the body. I have been told by local police that they often need a urine sample, which is not as complicated as a blood sample. In trying to secure more prosecutions, it is important to try to make people aware that that is the sample that they would need to give. I want the crime to stop, but I also want to make sure that, if it happens, we can hold the perpetrators to account. In the package of things that we might do in the future, there is space for more awareness of the methods of evidence giving and what evidence is needed to get the tracing of drugs in the system and ensure we can get the prosecutions.

[Tom Tugendhat]

I will ensure that my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury hears those points specifically and takes them up with the relevant authorities. I am sure she will be interested to hear them, because police clearly have a vital role in tackling this issue. I pay tribute to them for helping to shed light on these awful crimes. In many ways, they respond extremely effectively. I can speak for Kent police; others will have to determine the efficacy of the actions of their own forces.

Kent police does take spiking extremely seriously, but it can be a complex and challenging crime to investigate. I will pass on the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford. Drugs can pass through the system quickly, leaving often limited evidence for others to identify and to point to offenders. These crimes can happen in the highly dense environment of the night-time economy and in places where it is difficult to identify the perpetrator.

Since autumn 2021, police forces across England and Wales have been stepping up action on spiking. That includes developing and rolling out an online spiking reporting and guidance tool, which should greatly simplify the reporting of spiking. The police approach to tackling spiking is being co-ordinated by Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blyth, the national policing lead for violence against women and girls. The police continue to submit samples using rapid testing capability developed with forensic provider Eurofins Scientific. That has been invaluable in broadening our understanding of which drugs are being used and how frequently.

It is crucial that we have in place a consistent and effective national approach. Equally, the work taking place on the ground in communities is essential. In a number of towns and cities across England and Wales, uniformed police officers are visiting venues and working closely with licensed premises and staff. Plainclothes officers are trained to look out for concerning behaviour, while control rooms monitor CCTV so that officers can be sent directly to any suspicious or dangerous locations.

Criminal Justice Bill (First sitting)

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Jess Phillips]

Thank you.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Q On the issue of rough sleeping, I totally get that the police need to work with partners. By the way, I would just like to say that Essex police are doing phenomenal work on this and many other issues in the Chelmsford city centre, using hotspots and grid policing and so on, but occasionally, even though we are trying to give people support, there are some people with complex needs who are still sleeping on the streets, and we sometimes have the issue that they are sleeping in the fire escape of a large store, for example, which causes danger to others. Are the powers in this Bill the sort of powers that you could use to gently request that that person sleeps in another venue, without blocking a fire escape?

Chief Constable Stephens: Policing can gently request, persuade, cajole and encourage without powers.

[Vicky Ford]

Or stronger.

Chief Constable Stephens: Back to my earlier point, we would want to do so in conjunction with other partners that can provide the support. From a policing perspective, for us to get to the point where we would want to use powers, we would want to know that it is causing a danger to somebody or that there is real criminality. I can think of a number of ways in which we would be able to deal with the example you describe without resorting to powers.

[Vicky Ford]

Q Okay, but they are not doing it now, so they clearly do not have the power now. Will this give police the power to say, “No sleeping in this fire escape, which is putting hundreds of lives at risk if there is a fire”?

Chief Constable Stephens: This would give a power to move them on, but my previous points stand.

[Vicky Ford]

Q Thank you. On the issue of retail crime, again, my local police have been doing some very good work on tackling shoplifting, including of smaller items, but sometimes, obviously, there is concern about assaults on shop workers. How do you currently tackle assaults on shop workers? Would having a specific offence of assaulting a shop worker make a difference, or would you then say that we need to have offences of assaulting a teacher or assaulting lots of other professions as well?

Chief Constable Stephens: It would not make a difference in terms of the investigation and operational response, because clearly that is something that police would act on anyway. On whether you would want additional emphasis—whether it would be the will of Parliament to have additional emphasis—when it comes to sentencing, that is a separate matter. But it would not make a difference to the initial policing response to investigate the assault.

[Vicky Ford]

Q Okay. From time to time, we get very serious issues in the night-time economy, with people being spiked. The concern is often raised that although spiking is covered by law, it is a very ancient law, and if one had a specific offence about spiking that was crystal clear, that would act as a deterrent to the spikers. What are your thoughts on that?

Chief Constable Stephens: We are very concerned about drink spiking and its rise over recent years. Powers to give that additional emphasis, as a deterrent, would be welcome.

[Vicky Ford]

Thank you.

[The Chair]

I remind Members to try to avoid asking the same questions, because we are limited for time with our witnesses. I call Mark Garnier.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Laura Farris)]

Q I have just one question for you, Mr Biggar. You were talking about child sex abuse material. I want to ask specifically about border services. At the NCA, have you encountered as a limiting factor the fact that border services cannot search electronic devices such as laptops and iPads for potential child sex abuse material, even when they have intelligence or evidence to suggest that a person entering or leaving the United Kingdom may be an offender in that way? Are you aware of that? If so, can you comment on it? Do not worry if the answer is no.

Graeme Biggar: No, but let me write to you and the Committee about that.

[Vicky Ford]

Q May I ask the question I put to the previous witness about spiking? It comes up from time to time in the night-time economy in my constituency. If there were a modernisation of the law that made it very clear that spiking is a legal offence, could that act as a deterrent?

Baljit Ubhey: I think it could be helpful in communicating very specifically. At the moment, there is a specific offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003. In addition, there is the Offences against the Person Act 1861, which is old legislation although we still use it for a wide variety of criminality. I take the point, however, that the language of some of the offences under that Act may not be as explicit. We can prosecute spiking, whether it is related to sexual offences or otherwise, but modernising may be helpful.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

If there is time, Chair, I would like to ask a couple of things.

Criminal Justice Bill (Second sitting)

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 12th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Jess Phillips]

I will crack on with that, then.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Q Rebecca, when you were talking about clause 67 and the CPNs, I think you suggested at the beginning of your comments that this was not a unanimous view from your members. Is that correct?

Rebecca Bryant: Yes, it is.

[Vicky Ford]

It is not a unanimous view from your members.

Rebecca Bryant: No, it is not a unanimous view. There are some mixed views. Some people represented by some organisations suggested reducing the age to 14 rather than 10, particularly when we are talking about the 10 to 13 age group, who are particularly young. Yes, of course they have criminal responsibility in this country, but we are talking about antisocial behaviour here rather than—

[Vicky Ford]

Q I just asked a very simple question: were your members unanimously opposed to this measure? And you said no, it is not unanimous—correct?

Rebecca Bryant: Yes, that is what I am saying.

[Vicky Ford]

Thank you.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

Q I have a question for Harvey—a point of clarification, really. You mentioned that you did not think that there was any need to increase the sentence for shoplifting; you thought that it just needed to be applied more uniformly. Is that right?

Harvey Redgrave: I suppose it is more about saying where I think the priority should be. I do not have a particular problem with increasing sentences for shoplifters; it is just that I do not think that that is where the biggest challenge is.

Oral Answers to Questions

Vicky Ford Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Robert Jenrick]

No, I completely disagree with the hon. Gentleman. It is extremely important that we reduce the pull factors to the United Kingdom. There are already plenty of reasons why economic migrants would want to make a life in the UK. Enabling them to work as soon as they arrive here would only exacerbate those problems.

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

I am really pleased that the Government have been able to reduce the number of asylum seekers in hotels. The use of the Atlantic Hotel in Chelmsford for families is putting considerable pressure on our school places, especially as Chelmsford is already very short of school places due to the large numbers of people who have arrived from Ukraine and elsewhere. Will the Minister look again at the policy and ensure that when people with children of school age are placed in hotels, they are put in places where there are schools that have places?