Football Governance Bill (First sitting)

Tracey Crouch Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make a declaration of interest in connection with this Bill?

[Dame Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

I want to declare that I was chair of the fan-led review that led to this Bill.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

I sit on the management committee of the Spirit of Shankly football union for Liverpool football club.

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[Ian Byrne]

Q Should the regulator have any ability to determine ticket prices to protect the unique heritage of football?

Kieran Maguire: As a football fan, I would say yes. Looking at it purely from a business perspective, if you are selling 100% of your tickets at the current price, economics would say that they should be allowed to charge what they want.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Given your collective expertise, how long would it take you to write an assessment of football—let us call it a state of game report? Given your insight over time into the finances of football, what would be a meaningful timeframe of review for that assessment?

Dr Philippou: That is a very good question. I mean, how long is a piece of string? It depends on what you are looking at. We know what the issues are, so it depends on how targeted what you are asking us to look at is. The issues are pretty well known, so it is about how deep a dive you require—you can tell I worked in forensic accounting, with my “It depends!” But it would take months. It is not something that can be done quickly. It would require proper review to get it right, because if you are basing something on the information in a report, one needs sufficient time and access to be able to provide that information.

Kieran Maguire: The information we have put out in the reports to date has been on the basis of the financial reports published at Companies House. Therefore, we are reliant on clubs producing them on a timely basis and with a level of detail that we can make meaningful conclusions about. I used to do investigations into companies, and it is always nice to have more inside information or management information about budgets and so on, because that allows you to look forwards as well as in the rear view mirror. I think it would be a time-consuming exercise, but it is not an insurmountable one.

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[The Chair]

We must move on, Clive.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q The panel will appreciate that the UK has nuclear weapons and there is coding for what happens in the event of a catastrophic diplomatic failure. All that coding is well thought through but the outcome is never 100% certain, and he who pulls the trigger is not always going to be the winner. Do you appreciate that part 6 of the Bill is the nuclear equivalent for football? Do you also appreciate that, really, part 6 should never be triggered, and the only way it will be triggered is if there continues to be a catastrophic failure, between the parties on the panel, to come to a deal? Do you appreciate that part 6 has been written into the Bill because, frankly, you guys have not come to a deal?

Mark Ives: We are talking about the backstop?

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

That is part 6, yes.

Mark Ives: Yes, I am aware.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Mark, I will come to you for your views but—with no disrespect—I would like to hear what Richard and Rick say.

Richard Masters: I had not likened it to nuclear armageddon but it is an important issue. We have made attempts to come to a new deal but it has not worked yet. As I have said repeatedly, football solutions are the right way forward and the best solutions. I do not wish to be in a situation where the backstop power is being activated by any party, so I agree with you in that respect.

Rick Parry: We take a rather different view inasmuch as we do not see it as being armageddon or catastrophic. Football has manifestly failed and it will because the market forces are such that it is not an equal negotiation. We have very little negotiating power. We cannot threaten to leave and attach ourselves to the Bundesliga or La Liga, so we are basically stuck.

We think that if the regulator has clearly defined objectives, in terms of systemic sustainability, then as the fan-led review said, as the “One Year On” report said, as the White Paper said, and as the Government response said, it is the regulator that should have targeted powers of intervention. Intervention implies doing something positive. At the moment, the regulator is not actually allowed to do anything at all because it is reliant on the two leagues—the bodies that it is regulating—to step in. We believe the regulator should have those powers. The fan-led review is an enormously important and extremely helpful piece of work—an independent, objective, transparent study that has never been done before. The review will have a view on parachute payments and we are not, by the way, saying there should be no parachutes; we are discussing their level and the ability to fix them independently. We believe that, to make the Bill work, in the event that the fan-led review highlights problems, the regulator should be able to institute the process. We do not think it is armageddon. We do not think it is nuclear. We think it is logical.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Do you think it is a game of Russian roulette, though, Rick?

Rick Parry: No, we do not see it that way because so much hinges on the fan-led review—on the objective study. If the EFL were to trigger the backstop—and we hope we would not need to, or we never would—we would actually see that the EFL position would be something very similar to the fan-led review. It is the fan-led review that will inform the regulator as to whether it is able to meet its strategic objectives. It is not for the leagues to decide whether the regulator can meet its objectives; it is for the regulator to decide. If we were pushing forward a solution, I think the likelihood is it would be extremely close to what the fan-led review recommended. Why would it not be? It is not Russian roulette at all.

Richard Masters: Mark should definitely speak, but the only thing I would say is that you can observe the difference in incentives that now exists because of the regulatory power—the backstop power. It is the third person in this discussion. One of the issues that I would like to highlight to the Committee is that the backstop power creates different incentives because there is a third person who will adjudicate in the end. Since 2007, we have been able to come to agreements bilaterally, away from the gaze of the public eye, and do increasingly generous deals and share our success. We are happy to continue in that vein. I would like to point that out.

Mark Ives: There is an additional dimension for me, as far as the backstop is concerned. The backstop is really important to our clubs. We are at the base of the system, as I said earlier. We only get money from the Premier League. The solidarity payments we get from the Premier League are extremely helpful. However, there is a gap between our clubs and the EFL clubs. We could come to an agreement with the Premier League over our next round of solidarity payments. It is extremely helpful and, as it looks on the surface, it is very good. We could accept that. However, then there could be a deal between the Premier League and the EFL that has an impact of widening that gap, and that is not good for the game because the gap is already very wide.

I urge you to look at the difference in the solidarity payments across the game, including ours, and where that difference is. It would seem to be difficult, then, for us to be able to activate the backstop. We hope we never need to do it. However, it is an important aspect of the game to enable us to make sure that that gap does not get wider.

We know where we are; we know where we sit in the pyramid, and we are proud to sit there. However, we cannot afford for that gap to get wider. I would urge the wording of—

[The Chair]

The last question is to Rachel, because I think you are repeating yourself.

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[The Chair]

We move from the fans’ views to the person who started all this with the fan-led review—Tracey.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Kevin, you have given a very eloquent and passionate explanation about why you would like to see the Bill improved for fans and the general supporter base. You have also made representations about your wider concerns, so I thought you might like the opportunity to explain some of those to the Committee.

Kevin Miles: Clearly, I have been sat listening with a great deal of interest to what has gone before. The organisation has a view on the issue of parachute payments. We think they need to be in scope for consideration. We are also convinced of the need, in extremis if required, for the regulator to be able to trigger their own backstop powers. That is important. I am sure this will come up in discussion later, but I understand that you, Tracey, have tabled an amendment to adjust the wording about taking cognisance of Government foreign policy, and changing that from something that the regulator “must” do to something that the regulator “may” do. That is important because it would underline the independence of the regulator, which I think will be an important issue.

I could talk all day—I know you will not allow me to do so. The Bill is not perfect. There are areas that we would love to see strengthened, but if this Bill goes through entirely unamended, it is a huge step forward from the point of view of football. This is an important process for us. On a lot of what we have been seeking to get football to do itself, which it has failed to do, this Bill provides a solution. It fills a space and provides a regulatory function that has been lacking. Clearly, there are elements that we will continue to engage with Ministers and officials on, particularly the fan engagement stuff.

A lot of what we are talking about here is clarifying and nailing down. I am going to speak bluntly to people who understand this. At the moment, in a parliamentary process, we are aware that we have a little bit of leverage here. I would like to pin down as much of this as we can in the process of drawing this together, rather than just hoping for the best later. I think a lot of Members will share our concerns about the fan engagement. We want to make it meaningful; it must have a lasting impact. We do not want to be coming back to this and looking at the limitations—let’s get it right now. It is in that spirit that we are raising all these issues around fan engagement.

[Robin Millar]

Q It has been wonderful to hear the fans’ voice in what you have said and contributed previously to this whole process in bringing us to where we are. In the previous sessions, it has been quite interesting to hear how the English Football League and the National League, for example, were clearly feeling that it was, in what I think were Rick Parry’s words, an “unequal negotiation”. This Bill strikes me as trying to level the playing field, if you will pardon the pun, between different interest groups. Do you think the Bill gives you, as fans, the leverage to exert more control? I ask that because the Bill focuses heavily on finance. It includes other things such as heritage, but there is more to being a football fan than just the heritage. Do you think it gives you that leverage on those non-financial aspects as well?

Kevin Miles: It takes us a long way in the right direction. I think that if fans have a meaningful voice in every club, and the clubs are the ones who cast the votes in the leagues and their decision-making processes, the fan view should start to filter its way through. Clearly, we are never going to be completely satisfied.

I would also like to say that I am sitting here as the fans’ voice. I speak not just as an individual, but on the basis of the input that we have had from fans’ groups up and down the country. I need to thank my team from the FSA for the work they have done in getting this far. They work in a vary variegated landscape. There are some clubs that are really good at engaging with their fanbase and the local communities, and they deserve the credit for that. There are others where, sadly, it will need some sort of intervention to make sure that they are dragged up to at least the minimum standard. I hope we are in a process now where we can achieve that.