Football Governance Bill (First sitting)

Ian Byrne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dame Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

I want to declare that I was chair of the fan-led review that led to this Bill.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

I sit on the management committee of the Spirit of Shankly football union for Liverpool football club.

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

I am a trustee of The Sports Trust in Folkestone, which has previously received funding from the Football Foundation.

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[Stuart Andrew]

Q You gave us quite a lot of information about the financial situation in both the Premier League and the EFL, but what about the National League?

Kieran Maguire: As far as the National League is concerned, I think the average losses were £970,000 a year. There are no cost-control measures as far as the national league is concerned, so that is why we have seen the recent arrival of owners who have transformed individual clubs, because they have been allowed to achieve effectively unlimited levels of loss. That potentially has implications when those clubs are promoted to League Two, although again they have tended to do very well.

The National League has been intriguing, and certainly issues arose with governance during covid, such as the grants that were given to support those clubs, which proved to be quite contentious. Like both the Premier League and the EFL, there appears to be some form of civil war taking place within—or between—clubs. We talk about the Premier League, the National League and the EFL, but I do not think there is a collective viewpoint within those institutions themselves from an individual club basis.

Dr Philippou: From a financial profile point of view, the National League shows very similar financial issues to League One and League Two. It is not as if National League clubs are free from problems, and the reason why they are in here is because they are pro clubs—it is professional football.

[Ian Byrne]

Q Is there anything in the Bill that imperils the financial sustainability and global success of the Premier League?

Kieran Maguire: The Premier League has been successful because it has gone out to an audience and it has sold its services. There is no reason why the Premier League will not be competitive on a European basis in recruiting players, in respect of these rules. On attracting investment into the Premier League, part of the reason for its success is that we have moved effectively from a duopoly, which is where we were in 2005, to a more competitive product. In my view, if I was an investor, I would like to be able to invest in an industry where the opportunity to break even becomes greater, and I think that is more likely with the regulator than not.

Dr Philippou: We are not seeing much investment from certain areas that you would expect in most businesses. Part of that is the loss-making and the difficulty in conducting due diligence around football clubs. What we see in the Bill should fix that, and therefore we would expect to see more of a certain type of investment. Yes, perhaps there will be less investment from those who would rather not be in a more regulated environment, but that is not the overall picture.

[Ian Byrne]

Q Touching on the global success, football fans play a huge part in that, and they are the unique selling point of the Premier League. The Bill talks about protecting heritage, and there are huge concerns at the moment about the pricing out of working-class people from football matches. How do ticket prices affect club revenue, compared with the broadcasting element? Is there a need for such price rises, as we have seen this year, for sustainability?

Kieran Maguire: If we look at the Premier League, when it was formed in 1992-93, 43% of revenues came from matchday tickets. If we move to 2022-23, we are now down to £1 in every £7 being generated from those. That can be slightly higher for the bigger clubs, and we are not denying that. The success of the broadcasting deals has very much meant that the broadcasting revenues are now dominant, and they now constitute more than half of the total revenues. As far as prices are concerned, it is a sensitive subject. Clubs will say, “We’re still losing money, so therefore we need to target revenue streams. We’re not getting that from broadcast, because the broadcasting rights—”

[Ian Byrne]

Q Essentially, are they in danger of killing the golden goose that is laying the egg? If we look at what has happened in Italy, with the empty stadiums and the broadcasting rights there, the Premier League is on the crest of a wave. Surely the football fans are absolutely integral to the success of the Premier League.

Kieran Maguire: They are. During covid, we saw football matches with no fans and it was a sterile, glorified training exercise—there was no emotion. Having full stadiums is critical.

[Ian Byrne]

Q Should the regulator—

[The Chair]

Ian, we need to bring some more speakers in. Make this the last one.

[Ian Byrne]

Q Should the regulator have any ability to determine ticket prices to protect the unique heritage of football?

Kieran Maguire: As a football fan, I would say yes. Looking at it purely from a business perspective, if you are selling 100% of your tickets at the current price, economics would say that they should be allowed to charge what they want.

[Dame Tracey Crouch]

Q Given your collective expertise, how long would it take you to write an assessment of football—let us call it a state of game report? Given your insight over time into the finances of football, what would be a meaningful timeframe of review for that assessment?

Dr Philippou: That is a very good question. I mean, how long is a piece of string? It depends on what you are looking at. We know what the issues are, so it depends on how targeted what you are asking us to look at is. The issues are pretty well known, so it is about how deep a dive you require—you can tell I worked in forensic accounting, with my “It depends!” But it would take months. It is not something that can be done quickly. It would require proper review to get it right, because if you are basing something on the information in a report, one needs sufficient time and access to be able to provide that information.

Kieran Maguire: The information we have put out in the reports to date has been on the basis of the financial reports published at Companies House. Therefore, we are reliant on clubs producing them on a timely basis and with a level of detail that we can make meaningful conclusions about. I used to do investigations into companies, and it is always nice to have more inside information or management information about budgets and so on, because that allows you to look forwards as well as in the rear view mirror. I think it would be a time-consuming exercise, but it is not an insurmountable one.

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[Brendan Clarke-Smith]

Q Thank you. Mark, at the moment, the regulator covers only the top five tiers—obviously, it is going to cover the National League, but not National League North or South, or below that. Do you think that is the right way forward? Do you think it should be wider, or do you think it should be narrower?

Mark Ives: I think that, from a National League perspective, we are in a fortunate position. We run a licensing programme, and part of our ethos anyway, without the regulator, is to properly prepare our clubs to go into the EFL, whether they come from step two, National League North or South, into step one, the national division. If you look at the history of our clubs that have been promoted into the EFL, the vast majority of them have succeeded and continue to do so—this year you have only got to look at Wrexham’s story and everything else. That touches on your issue about foreign investments. Our challenge is to make sure that clubs that come up from step two are suitably prepared, through our licensing programme, to step into being regulated.

Equally, when somebody who is being regulated falls out of step one, sometimes because they have challenges, the issue for us is to ensure that they continue to get the support that the regulator may have given. As they go into step two, it is incumbent on us—it is still our competition—to ensure that they get the same checks and balances, to try to turn around whatever issues are there and give them a chance to grow again.

[Ian Byrne]

Q I first put on the record that we thank you, Richard, for your support on tragedy chanting. You have been fantastic. I also put on the record my thanks to you, Rick, for accepting the 13,000 signatures we gave you in 2001, I think, to stop Liverpool moving from Anfield to Speke, which would have been a disaster for our heritage. That was without the Independent Football Regulator, so well done.

My question is about financial sustainability, the profit and sustainability rules, and the lack of authority within the scope of the Independent Football Regulator. All supporters want a predictable, transparent, principled, proportionate, fair and timely system. Richard, from a Premier League perspective, I think that if you speak to the supporters of the clubs—Everton or Forest—they do not feel as though they have had that. There has been lots of confusion about the whole process and how punishment has been meted out. Then there is what happened with Manchester City—115 charges, but nothing as yet. Why would we not want to protect the integrity of the process—and the Premier League and, when it comes to that, the EFL? Why would we not want to give to the Independent Football Regulator the ability to mete out punishment in a fair and transparent manner?

[The Chair]

Order. While cases are pending, I ask Members to be careful about naming individual clubs in matters that may be sub judice.

[Ian Byrne]

Noted, Sir Mark.

Richard Masters: Thankfully, the cases you referenced have concluded now, before the end of the season, which at least gives some certainty. It has been a difficult period. This season has been the first time that the PSR rules have been activated—if we may call it that—in the Premier League. It has been a difficult experience, although Rick has more experience of it, and it is a difficult situation for fans of those clubs to live with, but if we have financial rules, we have to enforce them. I think that most people accept that, if they take a step back.

The question is: does the system work? Is the system transparent? No. The question you are asking is: should the regulator not look after all that? I think that the decision that the Government have taken, which is the correct one, is that this is for football bodies to look after. They are essentially getting involved in the running of the sport and the sporting competitive issues that exist within the game. I would not support, Ian, the regulator looking after those rules. The regulator has a clear remit to look at the sustainability of football clubs.

[Ian Byrne]

Q You feel that a good job has been done by the Premier League this season with regards to those clubs.

Richard Masters: It is a different topic. I am very happy to have a longer conversation with you about it.

[Ian Byrne]

Q On the scope of the regulator, Rick, would you concur with Richard’s opinion?

Rick Parry: I would actually, yes.

[Ian Byrne]

You think it is down to the leagues.

Rick Parry: It is the boundary of where football authorities deal with the rules that govern the competition. As Richard said earlier, part of the role of the PSR rules is competitive balance, rather than the sustainability of individual clubs. There is an element of crossover, but I do think that PSR squad cost control rules, or whatever replaces PSR, should fall firmly with the leagues to operate. We agree on that.

Mark Ives: May I add to that? I think it is important. We have our own financial regulation. If there are gaps in the financial regulation, then challenge the league —tell us where you think those gaps are for us to change. I would argue, as I said earlier, that the history of the clubs at our level is that our financial regulation works. As Richard said, it is it is only as good as ensuring that those regulations are applied, and we have applied them.

Two things about applying the regulations are that it is not just about sanctions, but about helping the clubs to make sure that they do not fall off the edge. In a few high-profile cases in the National League, we have actually been able to save some of those clubs and ensure that they do not go to the wall—I will not name them, but you know who they are. We have been able to assist those clubs to make sure that they survive. To come back to what the Minister said earlier about passing some of the issues over to the leagues, this is one example where we should have total autonomy to do our thing, and for the regulator to step in if we are not doing it.

[Ian Byrne]

It is about making sure this is transparent, and there has to be confidence in the integrity of the process.

[The Chair]

Ian, we are going to have to move on.

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[Stuart Andrew]

Q First of all, thank you, Kevin, for what you said about the officials. You are absolutely right; they have been superb throughout this whole process. Thank you, too, for your engagement.

I remember when I was first appointed, the first meeting I had was with you and with other fans. It was clear from that meeting that some clubs do engagement extremely well and, as you have just alluded to, there are others that do it differently. Given that fan engagement is part of the licensing regime, do you think that that is going to be sufficient to bring about a significant impact on the quality of fan engagement that we are currently seeing across the board? That is, are we levelling up, to coin a phrase?

Kevin Miles: I very much hope so, and I am optimistic in that regard. It is the first time that we will have had a requirement from clubs to engage with the fans and, to use the Prime Minister’s words, to put the fans’ voice “front and centre” of all those discussions. I do think, though, that there are a lot of details still to be worked out about how that actually looks.

There are some clubs, as you say, that are very good, but one of the illustrations of the limitations of self-regulation has been that when the leagues have been trying to put together their own requirements on fan engagement, because it has to be voted on by their members and agreed by their rulebook, the lowest common denominator tends to be put into the rulebook. We know that there are clubs that will resist the idea. There are owners who think they have nothing to benefit from in listening to the fanbase—their customer base, if you like. We know from experience that there are some who will do everything that they can to get around this. We will need to have an underpinning of that in the regulatory system, and some monitoring of it through the club licensing system. We recognise that this is challenging, because it cannot simply be a look at what structures are put in place. The regulator will have to do more than just monitor that there is a fan advisory board notionally in place. There will have to be some evaluation and examination of the content and spirit of the fan engagement. We are not expecting a fan veto on club decisions, but we are expecting that the fan voice is not just heard but listened to and given due consideration.

Evaluating that is a more complex process. Somebody referred earlier—I think in the first witness panel—to the possibility of Ofsted-type investigations. Maybe in some cases it will require the regulator to be able to consult the fan groups to see how they think it has been done, and to make its own evaluation about whether the spirit of what is intended here is actually being carried forward. That will need to be underpinned by requirements in the licensing condition.

[Ian Byrne]

Q Kevin, on the regulatory principles, I have tabled an amendment saying that supporters and supporter organisations should be added to clause 8(b). Does the organisation you represent agree with that?

Kevin Miles: Absolutely. If you look at that clause, you see that it is about the principles of the regulator. It currently reads that the regulator should,

“so far as reasonably practicable, co-operate, and proactively and constructively engage, with

(i) clubs,

(ii) owners, senior managers and other officers of clubs, and

(iii) competition organisers”.

We think that it is in the spirit of the rest of the Bill if a further provision is included that says “supporters and supporter organisations”. If the Bill really is about giving fans a voice at the heart of the game, the regulator should have that as part of those regulatory principles.

I cannot help thinking that this is an oversight rather than a conspiracy. Actually, the spirit of all the engagement we have had with the Department and with Ministers has been precisely that the supporters’ input into the regulation of the game would be an important component. But I think there’s a requirement for it to go on the face of the Bill in that clause.

[Ian Byrne]

Q I am happy to get that on the record. I welcome what you said about the ticket prices potentially being included in one of the clauses. I do not think we mentioned kick-off times, which can be changed at the drop of a hat, meaning that hotel bookings have to be cancelled and travel expenses cannot be returned. That is a hugely important element in lots of anger from football supporters. How do we ensure that this is included in the regulatory oversight?

Kevin Miles: Again, what I do not want to do is put a whole shopping list of items into the Bill, because I think that is problematic. We would support some clear direction in the guidance notes about what should be required from clubs. You have identified another important issue. It is a complicated issue, and it is not likely to be solved on a club-by-club basis. However, the idea that we could face a situation where a club declines to discuss with its fan advisory board as part of its fan engagement process an issue as important and impactful as supporters being able to turn up to the games and support their team—which is so important to so many people—seems to me to be absurd. It is common sense that those issues should be part of the discussion, and it is sad to think that there are clubs that do not approach it with common sense and want to discuss it. I think it should be required.

[Damian Collins]

Q Clubs have to produce a corporate governance report annually as part of their licensing agreement. Do you think there is scope there for the clubs to be required by the regulator to set out in that report what their policies for fan engagement are, and then the regulator would have the right to audit them on that?

Kevin Miles: Yes. One of the ideas that we are quite keen on is that, as part of the corporate governance code, there could be a requirement of clubs to have independent directors. In many other aspects of corporate governance codes, there is a particular responsibility on independent directors. Independent non-executive directors do have consideration for the views of other stakeholders in the work of a company. The idea that an INED in a football club could be required by a governance code to have particular responsibility for making sure that fans’ views are taken into consideration would be a very useful addition.