Urgent and Emergency Care

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Steve Barclay]

I have set out a range of things that we are doing to tackle what we recognise are significant pressures facing the NHS, whether that is through the taskforce that we have set up, which is targeted on delayed discharge; the intensive work that has been undertaken with, in particular, the 10 trusts that account for 45% of ambulance delays; the improved capacity within our call handling; or looking at our data, as was raised earlier, on the variation in performance between ambulance trusts on areas such as conveyancing or within the integration between the NHS and social care. I pay tribute to the huge amount of work that is being done within the NHS and social care in recognising that there are significant challenges within the system, which is why so much work has gone into addressing that over the summer.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State might recall that in his previous Health incarnation, he responded to a debate about the crisis in the ambulance service in my constituency. It is worse today—much worse. I take the point about delayed discharge, but, even so, is it not better to have people moving into a hospital setting, rather than people not being picked up by ambulances? That is where the real risk is. Will he also guarantee that I get an answer to my letter asking that Rochdale, which lost its A&E service some years back, gets it back? That would make a material difference.

[Steve Barclay]

On the hon. Gentleman’s second point, I will ensure that that particular letter to the Department is highlighted following this statement. On his first point, as I said in my statement, I agree that the greater risk is the unmet need if an ambulance does not arrive, rather than a patient who is in hospital. That is why Professor Stephen Powis and chief nurse Ruth May wrote to the system when there was pressure during the heatwave, flagging that as a specific issue. We have been working with trust leaders, including leading figures such as Anthony Marsh, on pre-cohorting and post-cohorting, capacity in emergency departments, and where risk sits in the system. I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s point.

Ambulance Services and National Heatwave Emergency

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Maria Caulfield]

As I explained in answer to the shadow Secretary of State, these are problems facing all devolved nations. I highlighted the four-hour waits in Wales, but in Scotland there are similar pressures—in Ayrshire there is a three-hour wait. These problems are not specific to any one Government. I have set out what we are doing to help all ambulance trusts and regions of the country. We have put in funding to support the ambulance service and to support NHS 111 to try to take some pressure off the ambulance service. We are looking at the novel approaches that in some parts of the country are working well—whether that is having GPs in A&E to try to take pressure off people who are waiting a long time, or having paramedics in GP surgeries. Whatever works we will look at, to help to take pressure off the system.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Rochdale is especially vulnerable because its A&E was closed many years ago. It means people are dependent on an ambulance service that is not in crisis because of the heatwave; it has been in crisis for some considerable time. We do not need blandishments. Why does it take a crisis for the Minister to come before the House to explain what has not yet happened?

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 19th April 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)]

No one, with the possible exception of my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), is more passionate than my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) about seeing improvements delivered in their local hospital, and I had the pleasure of visiting. As my hon. Friend will know, the £46 million was allocated originally for an urgent treatment centre; the hospital asked that that be changed and it folded in with the overall programme. It has yet to submit a business case for the enabling works; when it does, I will make sure that it is expedited.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

T4. The gap in life expectancy between people living in the richest and poorest areas is once again growing. That affects my constituents directly. I have heard nothing to date that tells me what the Secretary of State is going to do to narrow the gap; Secretary of State, what will you do to protect my constituents?

[Sajid Javid]

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, I know his constituency well; it is my birthplace. He might also know that just a couple of months ago I visited his constituency and met members of the local community at the Deeplish community centre to talk about exactly what he has rightly raised today: the importance of tackling inequalities in Rochdale and beyond. We will set out our plans in our upcoming health disparities White Paper.

Irish Diaspora in Britain

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Thursday 17th March 2022 Commons Chamber

1.58 pm

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the Irish diaspora in Britain.

Lá fhéile Pádraig sona daoibh, a Leas-Chean Comhairle. Happy St Patrick’s day to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to everyone. That is the hard bit of my speech done. It is worth recording that, while there are around 600,000 people who declare themselves to be Irish living in Great Britain, the true figure, if we look at those who are first and second generation, is probably something like 10% of the population of this country—some 6 million people. There should be 60-plus MPs here today on that basis. Alas, there are not. In fact, there are proportionally more Britons living in Ireland than there are Irish living in Britain, which is an interesting statistic. I say that because we have a very complicated relationship between our two islands, and a complicated history that has been interwoven over not just a few hundred years but thousands of years, from St Patrick travelling one way and St Columba travelling another way.

Those of us who have some claim to an Irish background are very proud of that background. I grew up in the very Irish city of Manchester, and in an Irish part of that city, listening to Radio Eireann at breakfast every morning. It is instructive that I knew as much about the tallyman’s projections for an Irish election, and that I knew, long before it had been declared, that the last seat in Donegal would go Fianna Fáil, as it virtually always did. Even better, I knew at least the advertised prescription for worming cows.

I never used that piece of information but, nevertheless, it has held me in good stead.

Manchester was a very Irish city, and the Irish were everywhere. One of the players who died in the Munich air crash, Billy Whelan, was Irish, and one of the heroes was Northern Ireland’s goalkeeper Harry Gregg, who dragged people—Bobby Charlton among them—from the ruins of the plane, for which he became a legend. He was a legend on the football field, too, because a few months previously he had helped Northern Ireland to defeat England. Northern Ireland went on to play in the 1958 World cup.

When Manchester United won the European cup in 1968, slightly after Celtic—that team was partly Irish, too—four of its players, Shay Brennan, Tony Dunne, the very Scottish but very Irish Pat Crerand and, of course, the great George Best claimed Irish origins. The Irish in Manchester could not be ignored.

The image of the Irish in those days was of builders and nurses, which was true to a degree. My good friend John Kennedy, who is known to many hon. Members, came from County Mayo with nothing in his pocket and built a business that has allowed him, as an older man, to be a philanthropist. My equally good friend Rita Maher—God rest her soul—probably nursed more people back to life, and towards the end of their life, than I had mugs of tea in her kitchen.

They are the archetypal working-class Irish, but it would be a mistake to see the Irish as just that, even though there are 200,000 Irish people working in our NHS—the Irish are much more than that. Robert Boyle, the father of modern chemistry, was Irish-born but lived long parts of his life in England. Britain’s greatest general and the victor at Waterloo, the Duke of Wellington, was Dublin-born. The Brontë sisters are famed Yorkshire women writers, but their father was from Northern Ireland. Oscar Wilde and George Bernard Shaw had Irish backgrounds and contributed to British society. I am proud to say that Denis Healey and Jim Callaghan were both of Irish origins. More recently, Danny Boyle, Caroline Aherne and Professor Teresa Lambe, one of the co-creators of the AstraZeneca vaccine, are all from Irish backgrounds.

The contribution is much wider than the image of builders and nurses. “McAlpine’s Fusiliers” declares:

“As down the glen came McAlpine’s men

With their shovels slung behind them”.

Nevertheless, we have doctors, lawyers, accountants and academics, everything the Irish contribute to this country. It is great to be able to record that.

These two islands have a complicated history that has caused problems. Although there is no doubt that the north of Ireland suffered most during the troubles, no part of these two islands did not suffer—my own city was bombed by the IRA in the late 1990s. The Good Friday agreement was a triumph not just for Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair, although their perseverance was instrumental in making it work, but for the many others who brought it into being. It was so important because it was not just about peace or even reconciliation; it was about a very different way of living together. It was about mutual respect between the people of these two islands, which is worth recording because the Good Friday agreement has taken a knock in recent years.

This is not the right time to rerun the Brexit debate, but Brexit has confounded and confused the relationship between these two countries. It has had an impact on the Irish living in Britain. We have to get back to getting it right. We owe it not simply to the Irish in Britain or to Britons in Ireland; we owe it to all our people to get it right once again. That is the big prize we have to pursue because, in the end, mutual respect is what we should be about.

Brian Dalton of Irish in Britain, who is alas stricken with covid—good luck to you, Brian—would say that the challenges facing the Irish in Britain are, of course, about making sure we live well together, but we face some challenges in common, such as dementia in an ageing Irish population and heart conditions in an Irish population whose diet in their youth probably was not always good. We face these things together.

It is about recognising Irish heritage and what it means in modern society, but there is something more important. The 6 million people of Irish origins are the template for this mongrel nation of ours. I say that with pride, because we are a mongrel nation brought together from many different strands. It is the template for how we treat and respect each other. If we can use the Irish in Britain as the template for how we respect heritage and how we respect each other, we will achieve something important for modern Britain and for the relationship between our two islands.

I am proud to be part of the hand-me-down Irish diaspora, and I am proud that colleagues are here to speak on this tremendously important issue. I am proud because the Irish in Britain represent the best of modern Britain, as do all those who weave the tapestry of what we are as a nation.

May the blessings of St Patrick be with us all this day, and may the blessings of St Patrick—I say this wearing a shamrock and a Ukraine badge on my lapel—be with the people of Ukraine, too. The peace we want between these two islands is the peace we want around the world.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Lloyd]

This has been a great debate. It has been a celebration—not simply of people who are very proud of their own claim to part of Ireland but, much more than that, of the role that the Irish have played. As the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), who spoke on behalf of the SNP, rightly said: what would we be had the Irish not been here? Ours would have been a very different country.

People have rightly touched on the difficult times—the “No Irish, no blacks, no dogs” signs that were part of my city and my upbringing. Fortunately, we are now a long way from that. I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) that I have a friend, whose father was Jamaican and mother was Irish, who once said to me, “You know, the Jamaicans and the Irish are very similar—it’s just that on the Jamaican side of me I’ve got sunshine.” The rain in Ireland keeps it green, as it keeps large parts of Britain green.

This is a day of celebration, as St Patrick’s day always is. I will not speak for too much longer, as I do not want to keep my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn) away from either the Guinness or the races.

I join the appeal of the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes) in respect of the specific problems faced by Irish Travellers. It is an important issue that we should recognise on this day of celebration.

I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson) that it was of course the Irish who built the Manchester ship canal, which enabled the Guinness boat to travel up from Dublin. That made sure that for a long time we had Dublin Guinness in Manchester, not simply that from London.

My final point is simply this. My hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) made an important point about the role of the Irish embassy, as did my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North. I pay tribute to the current ambassador, Adrian O’Neill. He has had a difficult time with covid and, without getting into the issues of Brexit, it has been a rocky few years since the referendum. It is in all our interests to make sure that we re-establish that good relationship. It is good for the Irish in Ireland, good for the British in Britain and good for the Irish in Britain. On this day of celebration, let us look forward to better times for all.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

It has been a real pleasure to be in the Chair for this debate and to hear so many good friends spoken of in such warm terms—especially Sir Patrick Duffy who, as the shadow Cabinet member and hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn) said, is the oldest living former MP. He is my constituent and a very dear friend. I spoke to him this morning and he was in fine form. He received a lovely letter from Mr Speaker on his 101st birthday last year. I wish him and everyone else a very happy St Patrick’s day. I also wish Sir Patrick a very happy birthday for his forthcoming 102nd birthday.

That was probably a complete abuse of my position, but nevertheless I wanted to do it.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the Irish diaspora in Britain.

Covid-19 Update

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

The number of confirmed cases in the UK is 336. By definition, they are all infected. Some may be asymptomatic and others will be feeling ill. As far as I am aware, none of them has so far been hospitalised.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will know that early detection and isolation is fundamental for the new omicron strain, but does he realise that Rochdale, for example, was receiving some hundreds of PCR tests until August and that this has now been ceased? Some of the national testing centres in my constituency are also being downgraded. Will he look at this matter, because it is clearly taking us in the wrong direction?

Covid-19 Update

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 29th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I am pleased to hear my hon. Friend’s constituents are so keen, and I assure her of that support, especially as we expand the booster programme on the back of the latest JCVI advice.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will know very well that the omicron variant has alarmed people who are immunocompromised, particularly those who are uncertain about whether their third jab was a booster or a specific jab for immunocompromised people. There are also people in anomalous positions with respect to the vaccination programme. As Members of Parliament, how can we get fast-track information from the Department about what is right for individual anomalous constituents?

[Sajid Javid]

Most people in that situation will be contacted either by letter or directly by their GP, but I understand the importance of the question. The hon. Gentleman may have heard earlier that one piece of advice from the JCVI that I have accepted is that the severely immunocompromised who have received three doses as part of their primary course will now be offered a booster dose—a fourth dose—so long as there has been a three-month gap since their third dose. In many cases, if an individual is unsure, the best place for advice is their GP. If the hon. Gentleman would find it helpful to meet the vaccine Minister to get more information, I can set that up.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Gillian Keegan]

There is no doubt that the sector is facing extreme pressure. It always faces pressure as the demographic need grows by 1% to 2% every year, but we have set out money to help with the short-term impact of that. Surrey will receive £2,704,702, so just over £2.7 million. We recently started the biggest national recruitment campaign we have ever done, Made with Care, to thank our care workers and to show what a fantastic and rewarding career it would be. We will continue to work with local authorities to help as much as we can.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

In the context of what the Minister has announced about increased money for staff terms and conditions, what does she make of the Alternative Futures Group, which operates in the north-west? It refuses to take up the real living wage, even when councils offer to fund it, and is in a process that is seeing the terms and conditions of its workforce deteriorate? Is there a need to look at that group, and to have a collective agreement for the whole sector?

[Gillian Keegan]

Yes, and I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would write with the details. We have a skills shortage in many areas across our economy. Because of the success of the Plan for Jobs, and our bounce back from the pandemic, anybody who does not treat their staff well will find that their skills shortages become very acute indeed.

Randox Covid Contracts

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House the minutes from or any notes of the meeting of 9 April 2020 between Lord Bethell, Owen Paterson and Randox representatives, and all correspondence, including submissions and electronic communications, addressed or copied to, or written by or on behalf of, any or all of the following:

(a) a Minister or former Minister of the Crown,

(b) a Special Adviser of such a Minister or former Minister, or

(c) a Member or former Member of this House

relating to the Government contracts for services provided by medical laboratories, awarded to Randox Laboratories Ltd. by the Department for Health and Social Care, reference tender_237869/856165 and CF-0053400D0O000000rwimUAA1, valued at £133,000,000 and £334,300,000-£346,500,000 respectively.

At the heart of this debate are two very simple questions. Do the Government have anything to hide? And will Members opposite now vote for a clean-up or a cover-up? I say “Members opposite,” but there are not many Members opposite to say it to.

The Prime Minister, just minutes ago, said in answer to my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition:

“I am very happy to publish all the details of the Randox contracts”.

If that is the case, the Prime Minister should vote for our motion and publish all the documents and correspondence related to the Randox contracts and the dodgy lobbying that went on around them.

The motion before the House is very simple. We already know that the former Member for North Shropshire broke the rules on lobbying. We already know that Randox was awarded nearly £600 million of taxpayers’ money without a tender. We already know that Randox was awarded a second £347 million contract having failed to deliver on a previous £133 million contract. And we already know the decision was made after a conference call involving the then Member for North Shropshire and the then Health Minister, Lord Bethell.

What we do not know is what happened in those meetings, who else was present, what was discussed and what was decided.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend makes an interesting point about who was at the meetings. It is not just a convention but an absolute necessity that, when a Minister meets a Member of Parliament or, indeed, an outside body, they are accompanied by civil servants who make a record of the meeting. Can we be certain as to whether the Minister was accompanied by civil servants who took those notes?

[Angela Rayner]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. He has been a Member for a long time, and he is aware these conventions and procedures are there to ensure that process is followed and recorded, but we do not know what was said in any of the correspondence before or after, including from private email accounts and phones. We do not know why or how these contracts were awarded. I hope the Minister for Care and Mental Health can give us some insight. We do not know what rules might have been broken and what role the lobbying of the former Member for North Shropshire played in the Government’s decision.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gillian Keegan]

I will pull out that part of my speech now, so that people can hear it. We will give Members what information is held and in scope. We will come back to Parliament and deposit it in the Libraries of the House. We will commit to do that. I would like to press on now.

[Tony Lloyd]

rose—

[Gillian Keegan]

I will give way one more time—and I mean one more time.

[Tony Lloyd]

I am genuinely very grateful to the Minister. I have a lot of respect for her and she should know that. She may not be able to answer this question, but I hope that she will actually say that she cannot answer it. She appeared to say to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) that he had not been a Minister during this time of national emergency. That is true, but can she be absolutely clear whether she knows if the conversation between Lord Bethell and a representative of Randox was minuted by civil servants, or does she know that it was not minuted, or will she simply not say? It would be helpful for the record today if we had that information. Does she know?

[Gillian Keegan]

Obviously, the hon. Gentleman knows that, personally, I was not there at the time. The meeting to which he refers was a courtesy call from the Minister to Randox to discuss RNA extraction kits. That was declared on the ministerial register of calls and meetings, but I have been unable to locate a formal note of that meeting. By the way, that meeting was after any contracts were let with Randox, which I will get onto.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), because I think he has tried to play this whole situation with a degree of integrity. The problem for us all is that it simply is not obvious whether that level of integrity has been followed all the way through.

Corruption does matter. The Prime Minister was very interesting at Question Time today when he used the defence of telling the House—and, through the House, the country—that we should not be talking about corruption because that lets our nation down vis-à-vis the rest of the world. The Prime Minister is absolutely wrong: when there is a whiff of corruption, it is vital that we talk about it and vital that we are seen to be working to uncover it. That is the problem we face.

I have no confidence, this House has no confidence, and nor even do Government Members. Government Back Benchers are not here in any numbers. [Interruption.] Many Conservative Back Benchers were not in for the opening speeches—the Opposition Benches were full—because many of them are concerned about this whiff of corruption. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) may want to ask me to give way, rather than chuntering away from a sedentary position. I am sure what he was saying was very interesting, but it was inaudible and therefore irrelevant.

[Alexander Stafford]

I am just surprised that the Opposition Benches are empty for an Opposition day debate when so many people claim that they want to discuss the issue. It is your debate. Perhaps you could explain where your Back Benchers are? I am intrigued because your side called it. Do they really care?

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

We have had quite a lot of that today, including during Prime Minister’s questions. Just do not do it. Let us try to keep to the rules.

[Tony Lloyd]

Quite right, Madam Deputy Speaker. In fact, had you not said that, I would have defended you, in that it is certainly not your debate, except in so far as it belongs to the House and, importantly, to the country, because that is what matters in this issue. It matters that the public have an opportunity to know what went on during this whole saga.

I want to talk briefly about the VIP fast-track situation. In November 2020, I approached Health Ministers about a constituent’s company, Jones & Brooks, which is a printing company that has printed extensively for the national health service. This was at the same time as the VIP fast-track structure was coming in. So good was the VIP fast-track structure for me as an Opposition Member of Parliament that it took me until, I think, July this year to get a proper response, and that was only when I insisted on meeting the Minister for Health, the hon. Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar). To give him credit, once this was brought firmly to his attention—I had done it many times—I got an answer. It was the answer I did not want: my constituent’s company did not get any joy from that exchange. However, what a world of difference there is between companies that can talk to Ministers, be put on a VIP fast track and have the opportunity to be awarded contracts—with or without proper surveillance by those in charge—and those, as in the case of my company, that are given no such consideration.

The Minister for Care and Mental Health has to take that on board because procurement does matter. The opportunity for people to engage in the procurement process matters, because one of the many ways of tilting the weighing scales of life is simply not to allow people even to be in the bidding process. That does matter, and it is the difference between those on the VIP structure and those such as Jones & Brooks and my constituent Ronnie Blair, who were not even allowed to get to the starting blocks. It does matter, because that is actually low-level corruption.

Ronnie Blair, the managing director of Jones & Brooks, offered me no money, and I would not have taken any money anyway. Maybe that is where it goes wrong: if there is no money changing hands, maybe it does not oil the wheels of procurement. That is an outrageous thing for me to say, and it would be much worse were it true. However, it is true, because we know that Owen Paterson was paid, we know that Owen Paterson broke the lobbying rules and we know that Owen Paterson got access to Ministers, but we do not know what difference getting that access to Ministers made. That is the missing link in this whole sad jigsaw. There are so many things we do not know.

Yes, I welcome the fact that the Prime Minister has now moved a long way on this issue. I welcome the fact that the Prime Minister, who two weeks ago was trying to cover up this scandal and this saga of corruption, is now in favour of openness. That is good. The Minister told us earlier that the Government would not vote against the Opposition motion today, and again that is genuine process. However, you—not you, Madam Deputy Speaker, but the Government—are in the slow learner’s lane on this. The public want to see real alacrity, real commitment and belief that things are going to be sorted out, because we have to get to the bottom of this.

The issue of the noble Lord Bethell is now central. We know that Randox was awarded huge sums of public money—half a billion pounds of public money, which is an enormous amount of money. That may or may not be legitimate vis-à-vis the crisis we faced, but we do know that it failed, with 750,000 tests, to deliver a product that actually worked. That is enormously important, and it is enormously important to know why, after that experience, we saw another contract being awarded to the same company, which could not do the work.

That matters, and the public need reassurance that that was not as a result of the weighing scales of life being altered unfairly in Randox’s favour. In the end, we are not talking about something trivial; we are talking about public safety and, in the case of covid, public life and death. The wrong tests could give results that led to people dying, so again this is not a trivial matter that we can simply sweep under the carpet, as other hon. Members have said.

The position of noble Lord Bethell is fundamental on this. The Minister told me that she did not know whether his phone calls were minuted by departmental officials. If they were not, that is outrageous. Being in a crisis is no excuse. There was no crisis in the Minister’s office and there was no crisis meaning that a civil servant could not be on the phone call, and that is simply the way things ought to have been done. We need to know whether those calls were minuted. If any call was not minuted, there is a real problem, because we do not know what other calls the noble Lord Bethell engaged in. That matters because there may be some things we shall never know from a noble Lord who is so, shall we say, casual in his acquaintanceship with his telephone. [Laughter.] It really does matter, because while I am grateful to my hon. Friends for laughing, it would be funny if it were not so serious.

The questions that the noble Lord Bethell has to answer are those that the Government have to answer. It is good that the Minister is committed to ensuring that the scope is properly identified, and I welcome what she said. The motion before the House defines that scope, but the commitment that the Government will honour it is fundamental, and if it is not discharged, that would be outrageous. If it is not honoured that will probably not be the Minister’s decision, but I hope she will take back the message that her reputation is sullied if others refuse to allow this investigation process to be completed.

We have to know what took place. The only way we can give the public confidence in our public life, in politicians, and in public procurement, is if they have a guarantee that when things go right they really have gone right, and that when they go wrong, we will dig and dig until we see what went wrong. We must ensure that those responsible are no longer in that position, and that as far as we can prevent them, such things will never happen again. This situation matters. It is about public money—enormous amounts of public money—but in the end, it is about public wellbeing, life and death.

I suffered from covid. I was in hospital from covid. I saw doctors, nurses and hospital staff of all kinds coming forward when I had covid, and taking the risk that, without proper PPE at the time, I would give it to them. That was early in the whole process, and we may come to the conclusion that such risk was unavoidable. I am very grateful to those who treated me and saved my life, but I am concerned that nobody else should have lost their life because of a dodgy procurement contract. That is why this matters. We have to know.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Carmichael]

That is, indeed, an important distinction. I wonder whether the search for these minutes has extended as far as the shredding room. I say to the Minister and the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Erewash (Maggie Throup), who will wind up the debate, that it would be helpful if the House could be told how many other documents might be within the purview of the specification outlined in the motion. That is, how many are similarly difficult to locate?

I caution those on the Treasury Bench that saying that documents and text messages and WhatsApp messages on Ministers’ phones cannot be found only lasts so long as a defence. A full inquiry is coming and the longer that somewhat less than substantial defences are thrown up, and the more dust is kicked up, the worse it will be for Government Ministers at the end of the day. If the information is there, with the knowledge and control of any Government Department, it should be disclosed under the terms of the motion, which the House is going to agree to.

The Minister said a number of times, including when I challenged her, that the Government would define the scope. With respect to her, the Government will not define the scope; it is the House that will define the scope, which has been very clearly laid out in the motion. I do not see what justification or excuse there could be, given the fairly careful construction of the motion, for not disclosing information. More important than that, even if there is a tiny loophole it is a question of doing the right thing and being seen to honour not just the letter but the spirit of the motion, which the House will pass later. That is why, to quote David Cameron again, sunlight is the best disinfectant. We need to have the fullest possible disclosure.

[Tony Lloyd]

This is a convenient time for me to intervene because that is the point I want to put to the right hon. Gentleman. As he knows, ministerial meetings are always minuted, but if documents are missing, what will the public believe if they find out that meetings have not been minuted? Even if it turns out in reality—in God’s time—that nothing bad happened, the public will, rightly, still believe that somebody is trying to pull the wool over their eyes. Put simply, that is part of the distrust in politicians and in Government. We have to clear it up and ensure that we re-establish our reputation.

[Mr Carmichael]

One can only imagine what the public might believe in these circumstances. I fear that it may not be generous. Actually, you know what? It does not just reflect badly on the Government; it reflects badly on all of us in public life. That is why the way in which the Government have approached this whole matter since that dreadful vote two weeks ago has done so much damage to the standing of public life.

I know a bit about this issue because I spent the early years of my legal practice as a member of the civil service. I did my traineeship as a procurator fiscal depute at the Crown Office back in the dark days of the 1990s. We kept everything—we minuted everything—and when we had finished a meeting, we filed the minutes. Those pieces of paper sat in filing cabinets and archives for 30 years or however long it took, at which point they were taken out and put into the public domain. What that process of preparing files for publication taught me was that not everybody in the public service was always very careful in the way in which they filed pieces of paper. Anybody who has ever been in legal practice will know that occasionally papers for one client get mixed with papers for another.

As I say, that was back in the dark ages. I suspect that the notes prepared these days are not handwritten in fountain pens on little pieces of paper. There will be electronic records of them, and those electronic records are virtually impossible to destroy. That is why the question of documents being difficult to find stretches my credulity.

We all have respect for the Minister. When she started her speech, the only Government Members present were two Ministers, two Parliamentary Private Secretaries, a Whip and the hon. Member for Amber Valley. As I have said, I have never seen the House so poorly populated for a debate like this. Indeed, I have to say that I have never seen the civil service Box as thinly populated as it is today. That in itself is quite telling, because it comes back to the way in which the Government approach the issue. The most powerful people in any Parliament are Government Back Benchers, because they have the opportunity to defeat the Government. Anybody who has ever served in a Whips Office knows that. It is welcome that the Government will not contest the motion, but I am still worried about the lack of enthusiasm among Government Members for extracting maximum possible disclosure.

In her speech, the Minister outlined, quite properly and legitimately, the various significant achievements, including the vaccine roll-out. She reminded us of the situation in which we found ourselves in March 2020, when we did not really know what the future held. As the hon. Member for Amber Valley said, we would not have expected every i to be dotted and ever t to be crossed. However, at that point we all gave a significant amount of power to the Government. This House passed the Coronavirus Act 2020, which gives massive amounts of latitude to the Government, because we all felt it necessary to give them the powers to do what was needed in a situation where nobody knew what the future held. What I fear has not been properly understood is that, with those powers, we gave the Government a responsibility, but they and many of those around Government seem to have seen it not so much as a responsibility as an opportunity for enrichment. I say to the Minister and to all her colleagues that that attitude is at the heart of the problem and is, essentially, an abuse of the powers that we gave them when we passed that emergency legislation in March 2020. That is why the motion is so important.

Like every other Member in this House, I frequently sit down with businesses in my constituency and will help them, if possible, to get rid of penalties. That includes people charged for a late VAT return and farmers penalised in a draconian manner for making a minor and unintentional error in their claim for an agricultural support payment. Sometimes we are able to help them; sometimes we have to just shrug our shoulders after we have tried and say, “I’m really sorry, I tried but these are the rules.” Those constituents will only ever listen to me deliver that message again if they can be satisfied that the rules that so adversely affect them also apply to everybody else. The real damage that the Government seek to do in the way they have handled these matters is that they will never again be able to tell other people that they should not be held to the same standard.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anneliese Dodds]

Many thanks to my hon. Friend; she is absolutely right that we have seen failure upon failure upon failure to meet the targets that were set, as she knows very well from her experience in this place and her focus on health matters. I find it extraordinary that the process of the Health Secretary having to call on others so that Randox could deliver what it had promised was described as an example of the “triple helix”. I remember those days very well. I remember academics begging the Government to come to them because they said that they could deliver the testing that our country needed. Were they listened to? We all know what happened: they were not listened to—they were ignored when our country needed that testing. This was an example not of collaboration, but of outsourcing that failed spectacularly on the Conservatives’ watch.

[Tony Lloyd]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. One of the real questions relates to the fact that the Minister told us that those involved in procurement were not constrained whatever by Government and Ministers’ actions. I know not whether that is absolutely accurate or not—we have to find out—but, in any case, did not the procurement process fail at precisely the point at which there was no examination of Randox’s capacity to deliver what it said it would? That is not clever procurement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maggie Throup]

In a statement on 18 July 2020, the Secretary of State informed the House that a batch of swab test kits were not up to the usual high standard. As a precautionary measure, they were withdrawn, and replacement kits were supplied as soon as possible.

[Tony Lloyd]

The Minister is making a case for the partnership among our universities, our health service and the private sector. She has spent some time praising Randox, whose coffers were stuffed with money. Does she think it would be a good idea to stuff our university research facilities and our NHS testing labs with the same amount of money?

[Maggie Throup]

I visited Nottingham University recently to see the amazing work being done there. Obviously, continued support for our universities is imperative. I know that they do amazing work, as do our hospital laboratories.

We should celebrate these achievements, not criticise them. I want to reassure the House that there have always been strong safeguards behind these contracts, and that they are awarded in accordance with the Public Contracts Regulations 2015. We monitor all contracts and suppliers closely, as would be expected. We judge them against key performance indicators, and we publish contract award notices for all the contracts awarded to provide test and trace services, consistent with the regulatory requirements.

Covid-19 Update

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his support for today’s announcement. I know that he speaks with huge experience, that he has rightly focused for years on the importance of patient safety, and that he will also welcome this as a patient-safety measure. On his particular question around flu, we did consider that carefully. As he knows, we did consult on it. We looked at the response to the consultation and, after consideration, we were not convinced that we should go ahead with flu at this stage, but the option remains open.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I am guardedly sympathetic to the direction of travel in which the Secretary of State is going, but this obviously could lead to specific skills shortages in different parts of the health service. Can he give us a guarantee that this will be monitored at a granular level, so that each hon. Member can be certain that we do not find out that our own hospitals have developed those skills shortages in vital services?

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman is right to raise that point. It was a concern in making the decision, and I have set out how I have taken that into account. However, I assure him that the issue will be monitored on a day-by-day basis by our colleagues in NHS England and of course the Department itself, and that whatever workforce planning is necessary will be done.

Health Incentives Scheme

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Friday 22nd October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Maggie Throup]

My right hon. Friend will be aware that, as the previous chair of the all-party group on obesity, this issue has been close to my heart for many years. Over my years as a Member of Parliament I have been delighted to join some of my local schools and run the daily mile. It is inspiring to do that as an MP and I encourage anyone who has not done it to do so. The kids get so excited by it, and I see the difference it makes to them. More specifically, I am yet to have a meeting with the Department for Education, but it is high on my agenda. Tackling child obesity is a No.1 priority for me, and it has been for a number of years.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Alex Norris), I cannot oppose what the Minister tells us here today, but it is frankly on a very small scale. The point made by the former Health Secretary, the right hon. Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), is fundamental. We need a recommitment to getting sports back in our schools for our children and young people. In particular, we have never been good at engaging girls and young women to stay in sporting activity, and that is now something of an emergency. Can the Minister give us more than her personal example and say what the Government will do to make that happen?

[Maggie Throup]

I am here today to talk about this pilot and how it will be taken forward, which is exciting news. This will be across the population to ensure that a mixture of people take part: different ages, males and females. That is so important. Some of the information from that will help us to look at policies in the future. There are good programmes to engage young women in sports. When female football teams or tennis players do very well that encourages even more people to take up sports—not just women but across the board. Such successes will help to tackle obesity in a soft way.