High-Speed Rail

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 31st March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Robinson]

That point was made earlier. My right hon. Friend asserts one thing that leads me to assert another. I believe it can be developed in that way. I believe it because the Atkins report, which also made a projection for the HS2 line, said it and worked it out in detail. It very clearly dealt with pinch points, length of trains, length of carriages, and calculated the number of problems it would create in disturbance on the line. We want it worked out and properly investigated by an independent body. That is what we need. Nobody is against it; we all want to extend the rail line. We all want to extend rail capacity and increase speeds.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Robinson]

I will give way to the Minister in a second. RP2 will take us up to 136 mph, which many people think adequate.

[Tony Baldry]

In fact, I am a humble Back Bencher, and proud to be so. I do not wish to intrude in family grief in Coventry, but I think that the hon. Gentleman is failing to make his best point. His best point on behalf of Coventry should be a concern that HS2—which quite rightly, if it goes ahead, will connect certain cities in the country—is likely to be to the disadvantage of other cities, such as Coventry. He has not made that point in terms, and I am sure it is one he would wish to.

[Mr Robinson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I was trying not to participate in nimbyism. I have been sworn not to do that. I make no apology: I am here to represent Coventry’s interest. Call me a nimby or whatever. I can find nothing in the proposal that brings any benefit to Coventry. I think that if my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) were here he would agree with that point. I can see that many others have a different point of view. We want capacity, we want modernisation, we believe we can get it, there is an alternative, and we want it evaluated. I cannot see what is wrong with that proposition. I cannot see how anyone could oppose it when, looking at capital costs on present forecasts, it would cost half of what HS1 cost.

--- Later in debate ---

[Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)]

I declare an interest as the representative for King’s Cross, Euston and St Pancras stations, and as a member of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers—I pay it a subscription; it pays me nothing. I do not apologise if I seem nimbyish. I understand that the Secretary of State has attacked people for being nimbys, but 350 to 360 people in my constituency face the demolition of their homes, and “nimby” does not cover that. For many of my constituents, it is not “not in my backyard”, but “not in my front room”. My job is to try to represent them.

The proposed 50-metre extension to the west of Euston station would involve, in addition to knocking down people’s homes, concreting over a small park and preventing the proposed rebuilding of Maria Fidelis convent school. In addition to the formal extension, all sorts of changes would be needed to the approach roads. There would have to be provision for off-station taxi ranks and all sorts of other things, which would involve further demolition outside the lines that have so far been drawn on the map. My opposition started with those points, and I make no apology for it.

However, the more I look at the proposals, the more doubtful I have become. Let us assume that High Speed 2 is a good idea. Even if it is, it is not a good idea to have Euston as the terminus. It has no connection with the Heathrow Express, and never will. It will have no connection with Crossrail, and it has no connection with High Speed 1, so it is not well connected.

[Tony Baldry]

I seek information, as I am now totally confused. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the Chamber what the connection is between HS2, Heathrow airport and Crossrail?

[Frank Dobson]

As I understand it, because Euston does not have a connection to Heathrow Express and Crossrail, it has been necessary to propose a parkway station at Old Oak Common that will have connections to those lines. That additional expense could otherwise have been avoided. As a result of the inadequacies of Euston, the parkway proposition for Old Oak Common—alias Wormwood Scrubs—had to be added to the proposal. Instead, the line could be brought into Paddington station, which already has links to Heathrow Express and will be on Crossrail. When I pushed that point, people from High Speed 2 said that Paddington could not cope with the number of passengers. Paddington has as many tube connections as Euston and, as I have pointed out, it will link to Heathrow Express and Crossrail. That excuse for not using Paddington appears to be of little relevance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

I am glad that we are seeing all-party support as well as opposition to High Speed 2 today. I believe that the UK needs and deserves high-speed rail. Notwithstanding the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), I wonder who now regrets the building of High Speed 1 or the channel tunnel. Crossrail was a very difficult project to get through. Again, it affects my own constituency. The Thames tunnel is another one of those major infrastructure projects that this country used to be well known for, and used to have the courage to go ahead with, but which we are now seen to be fearful of pursuing. Unfortunately, the spirit of Brunel does not seem to have infected many of those on the Government Benches.

Why should the benefits of high-speed rail, whether as an alternative to air travel, as something that provides commercial benefits for trade or simply as a more civilised way for people to get around and meet friends and relations, be restricted in this country? Why should people in this country be restricted simply to getting to the continent and getting beyond that? Unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), I would praise the contribution of Lord Adonis. He took it by the scruff of its neck and pushed it forward. I shall resist praising the Secretary of State, because I may be lynched if I mention his comments to Metro. He said:

“There is not much more to their argument than Nimbyism. I hear lots of arguments about whether the country can afford it, value for money and the business case. But 95 per cent of these arguments come from people who just happen to live in Wendover, Aylesbury or Amersham.”

I suspect that invitations to the Secretary of State for constituency dinners are rather fewer; perhaps that is why he said what he did. I rarely disagree with my right hon. Friend, but I do on this occasion. I have never before heard Shepherds Bush described as a parkway.

I visited the site of the Old Oak interchange two weeks ago; it is in the north of my constituency. It is a large brownfield site that has always been railway land, and it is a wholly suitable location. There will be six new platforms for High Speed 2, and eight new platforms for the Great Western line, Crossrail and the Heathrow express—and, indeed, the direct link to High Speed 1. It seems entirely sensible to put the interchange just outside London; it is only a few minutes away from Euston but it gives a direct link. It will be the UK’s major rail interchange, and it is a sensible place to put it.

[Tony Baldry]

It seems that the hon. Gentleman does not have any constituents whose homes will be demolished. Does his speech not reinforce what Lord Adonis said—that with the HS2 project everyone wants the stations but no one wants the track?

[Mr Slaughter]

I shall say a word in favour of nimbyism in a moment.

Yes, it is true that my constituency will suffer no loss of property, and I am obviously delighted by the fact. Indeed, 5,000 jobs and a minimum of 1,600 homes will be created by the new infrastructure. It will be a positive development in one of the most deprived areas of the country—White City, Shepherds Bush and Old Oak. I should say that I live five minutes from there, but it will put my constituents 10 minutes from Heathrow and just over 40 minutes from Birmingham. These are the sort of projects of which the country used to be proud, and it used to seek mitigation for them rather than avoiding them altogether on the basis that such decisions are difficult to make.

Having said that, I believe that the project is good not only because the route and the interchange have some parochial benefit but because they give direct access to the Great Western line, Crossrail, the Heathrow express and HS1 just a few minutes outside central London. That is an improvement.

I have two caveats for the Minister, if she will take the advice. First, the Government need to look for friends wherever they can, but they have not done that so far. Last year’s debate was on 11 March, almost a year ago, and the Minister was then Opposition spokesman. Her aggressive stance rather belied the fact that she supported the announcement made by Lord Adonis. Her questions then are ones that she could answer today. She asked:

“Will they match our commitment to start work immediately on taking the line beyond Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds as part of stage 1?...Why will they not match our commitment to start construction by 2015? What guarantees can they give that fares will be kept within the reach of ordinary families on modest incomes?”

Those are all questions that the Minister might want to answer today. Rather churlishly I thought, she then said about Old Oak:

“Although we do not rule out use of that site for dispersal, the idea that some kind of ‘Wormwood Scrubs international’ station is the best rail solution for Heathrow is just not credible.”— [Official Report, 11 March 2010; Vol. 507-08, c. 450.]

I remind the Minister of this every time the subject comes up, and I know that she is happy to eat those words.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

We are all agreed that we want the UK economy to grow, and that we want a greater rebalancing of the economy. That means giving more impetus to the regions. We are all agreed that we want to reduce internal aircraft flights so as to reduce carbon emissions. The question for the House is whether spending the same, or even a lesser, amount of money than is proposed for HS2 in other ways would give us the same or better policy outcomes.

The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) was right to say that the policy was put upon us, fully formed and out of the blue, shortly before the general election. This is the first debate in which the House has had the chance to give intensive scrutiny to this multi-billion pound project. That puts an enormous responsibility on the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and the Select Committee on Transport; on behalf of the House, they have undertaken to inquire into HS2 and the alternatives. We all need to look to the Select Committee to carry out an independent and objective inquiry. One thing that I have learned in my time in the House is that when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement, the Back Benchers have to start counting the spoons. It is always dangerous when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

The inquiry being undertaken by the Transport Committee is of a strategic nature. Its terms of reference have been set out, and I would not want there to be any misunderstanding about the scope and nature of the inquiry.

[Tony Baldry]

I understand the exact terms of reference. In holding a strategic inquiry, the hon. Lady and her Committee are doing the House a great service, because the earliest that the House could consider this matter otherwise would be in the hybrid Bill Committee. Such are the curious rules of the House that many of us would not be able to submit evidence to that Committee. This is exactly the time when we need a strategic inquiry into the principles of HS2 and the alternative. As I said, when both Front-Bench teams are in agreement, there is always a danger that things can get overlooked.

Let me explain how it is possible for our country, in its understandable desire to incorporate and embrace what was in the 1960s called the white heat of technology, to get things really badly wrong. More than 20 years ago, my first job in Government as a junior Minister was helping John Wakeham to privatise the electricity industry. Part of my brief was responsibility for nuclear power. We had to consider whether we could incorporate nuclear power within the privatisation. I could not understand why no one had thought of the contingent liabilities of decommissioning the nuclear power stations and the cost of nuclear waste. I will not detain the House, save to say that I went back and looked at the ministerial papers and press cuttings of some 20 or 30 years previously, when nuclear power stations were first being built. No one, either in government or outside, had given any proper consideration to the costs of decommissioning nuclear power stations, or of storing and disposing of nuclear waste.

We are all here representing the taxpayers. I think this is the first debate in Westminster Hall at which Mr Speaker has thought it appropriate to be present. It was also telling that for quite a long time my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) was in his place. Unless I have badly misunderstood the routing of HS2, it does not affect Isle of Wight strategically, either in a nimby way or any other way. He was here, as we all are, representing taxpayers and the national interest. This is a project that will cost billions and billions of pounds. If we get it wrong, we get it seriously wrong. We all have a collective duty to get it right, so far as taxpayers are concerned.

I do not pretend to be a rail engineer. I do not pretend to know or to be able to make a value judgment on the benefits of HS2 versus the benefit of the Atkins or other reports. I hope that the Transport Committee and others will start to give some independent and objective analysis of that. I hope that they will pick up the rather important point made by the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), with a little prompting from me: the scheme could have a detrimental impact on parts of the regions. Birmingham might benefit from the line, but Coventry might not; Leeds might benefit, but Wakefield might lose out. All those things have to be properly assessed.

This is not a debate that can be dealt with in set-piece forums such as this. We are talking about an issue that the country will live with for years and years. It behoves Parliament to get it right, and it behoves us, as Back Benchers, to ensure that the structures of the House, and especially the Select Committee, subject the project to the intellectual rigour and investigation that it needs, so that present taxpayers and future generations get the right answers.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that comment. Those who oppose the building of the line have clearly identified themselves and their direct interests in this matter. It is now for those who will stand to benefit the most, particularly in our great northern cities, to voice their support during the consultation period.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend seen the letter today in The Daily Telegraph, signed by, among many, Lord Lawson of Blaby, who many of us felt during his time in the House was an outstanding Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer?

[Mr Hammond]

Yes, I have seen it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman knows that road schemes are evaluated on a cost-benefit basis. Accident figures are one of the factors taken into account and built into the analysis, but we will always look at the cost-benefit analysis—the overall benefits that the scheme will bring, compared with the costs—and all schemes have to be looked at fairly and objectively in the light of the limited funding available.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

T2. Prodrive is one of the most cutting-edge and significant companies in my constituency. It does excellent work on automotive engineering, including producing a new generation of Mini rally car. What are the Government going to do to make it easier for rallying to take place on roads in the UK?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)]

Legislation dating from the 1930s restricts rallying, time trials and races on highways in the UK. An Act of Parliament would be required to change that. We are looking to deregulate the position so that if local authorities want to hold rallies, time trials or races, they should be allowed to do so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 28th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Villiers]

I am very much aware of the campaign that my hon. Friend has run, alongside my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds and other local MPs, such as the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood). I have met a number of MPs to discuss this project and we recognise that it is a good scheme. Important work is being done through the Grip 4 study, which is due to conclude shortly. We hope that we will be able to fund this scheme, but at the moment the deficit—the significant crisis in the public finances—that we have inherited means that we cannot take forward all the good schemes that are on the table. There is no doubt, however, that this scheme will be a serious contender when we assess these schemes again in relation to the next railway control period.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

7. If his Department will fund (a) tunnelling and culverting work and (b) other mitigation work arising from the construction of any future rail line as part of the High Speed 2 project.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

The coalition Government take very seriously the potential impact of a high-speed rail line on line-side communities and property owners. HS2 Ltd’s current preferred route utilises a range of mitigation techniques, including tunnelling and culverting where appropriate, practical and economically justifiable.

[Tony Baldry]

On page 174 of the HS2 proposals, the report states:

“It is difficult to analyse exactly where the benefits of HS2 would accrue.”

HS2 is a project that will clearly be expensive in construction costs, mitigation costs and the costs of compensation. Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that next year’s consultation will include a consultation on the principle of HS2 and on whether the same amount or even less money spent on the existing rail infrastructure could produce similar or even better results?

[Mr Hammond]

I can assure my hon. Friend that the option of spending money on enhancing existing rail infrastructure to provide the capacity and the additional connectivity that a high-speed railway will provide has been examined in detail and has been found not to be a practical option. The consultation next year starts from the premise that the Government believe that a high-speed rail network will be in the United Kingdom’s interest, but it will consult on issues to do with the design of that network, the route and the details of the proposals for the London to Birmingham link.

Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 22nd July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hammond]

The coalition Government have indeed ruled out the tolling of the existing road network for the duration of this Parliament.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

T3. What are the Government going to do to make it safer for motorcyclists by improving the tests for motorcyclists? In particular, the last Government so reduced the number of test sites that we had the slightly ludicrous situation of motorcyclists who had not passed the test having to travel considerable distances on their motorbikes to take the test. So can we see some improvement in the test regime for motorcyclists?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. We have announced a review into both parts of the motorcycle test, not only because of the concerns he raises, but because of some of the accidents that have taken place on tests, especially on part 1, which is off-road. We have a ludicrous situation in which some people have to travel two and a half miles with their L plates on to take the test, go off-road, fail it and then have to ride all the way back. That situation is being reviewed, and we hope to have answers in the autumn.

High Speed Rail

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Wednesday 9th June 2010 Westminster Hall

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

It is good to see my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Transport, who will respond to the debate. I hope that she will forgive me, and that hon. and right hon. Members will do so too, if I am unable to stay for the winding-up speeches. I am standing for the chairmanship of an all-party group, the annual general meeting of which is being convened this morning at a time to suit colleagues in another place.

The comments made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) and my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) demonstrate and reinforce a point about high speed rail that Lord Adonis made to me before the general election, which was that everyone wants the stations but no one wants the track. We will all have to manage that in bringing about a commitment made by both Government parties in their manifestos at the general election and in the coalition agreement, which is in the Queen’s Speech and is expected to be delivered.

I shall not repeat any of the sensible questions asked by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith, which I am sure my right hon. Friend the Minister will be able to answer. I wish to ask three specific questions on various points.

First, may I suggest to my right hon. Friend the Minister that it would help if, at some point in the near future, she wrote a “Dear colleague” letter to every colleague in the House, setting out in straightforward terms the legislative process and the timetable that the Government intend to pursue, so that we can share them with our constituents? It is a pity that the previous Government brought the project forward just before the general election. We all understand why: the previous Prime Minister wanted to make what he thought was a decent press announcement—he went to Birmingham to make it—but that meant that the process got rather confused. It would help if hon. and right hon. Members were able to share the relevant information with our constituents.

Secondly, on speed, Eurostar goes at 300 kph—186 mph —and those of us who have been on it know that that is pretty fast. High Speed 2 is due to go at 400 kph, which is 250 mph and considerably faster than Eurostar. More straight track is needed for a very fast train, which means less opportunity for mitigation or variation of the route to accommodate settlements, towns or important topographical features. I hope that, at some stage, there will be an opportunity to have an informed debate about what are the cost-benefits of a very fast train as opposed to a fast train, and what is the real benefit of 250 mph over 186 mph, so that we can consider the options between them.

Thirdly, on community engagement, my right hon. Friend the Minister will not be surprised that my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), Mr Speaker, whose constituency adjoins our constituencies, and I will be working together with our local communities, which are concerned about the possible impact of the route on them. The route runs close to the sizeable town of Brackley in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire. Will the Government consider complete alternatives to the routes in the consultation, to what extent are they willing to consider mitigation or variation of the existing route, how will they engage with the communities and how can that debate be informed?

It is important to put on the record what the Campaign to Protect Rural England has made clear:

“We welcome the vision of HS2 as a low carbon backbone of a sustainable transport system. By removing fast trains from the overcrowded lines north of London, space will be created for local passenger and freight services too.”

Even campaigning groups such as the CPRE recognise that there are considerable benefits to be had from HS2. However, such organisations have long experience in engaging with Government on issues of this kind. It would help if Ministers said how they intend to engage with our constituents and communities on the impact of the track on individual communities and constituencies.

I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport proposes to walk the route later in the summer, which seems sensible. Will my right hon. Friend the Minister give an undertaking that, when that happens, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will engage with colleagues so that we can ensure that, in respect of each constituency or groups of constituencies, there can be positive, constructive engagement between him and local communities on comments people have to make about mitigation or variation of the route?

I would like to emphasise a point made forcefully by the CPRE. It is evident that people are keen on the stations, because those will make linkage between parts of the United Kingdom much quicker and obviate the need for a third runway at Heathrow. There are all sorts of self-evident benefits. However, the benefits are not so self-evident for those who have the track going through their parishes or back gardens.

The benefit to people of a motorway going through their county or area is that it is part of the local infrastructure, and they can join and leave it. There will not be a station between London and Birmingham, so those living in that area will have limited direct benefit from HS2. However, there may be other ways in which communities can be compensated so that damage might be mitigated—for example, undergrounding existing electricity transmission lines on the HS2 route, creating new local rail services and reducing noise from existing roads.

The CPRE suggests:

“Some of the spare capacity freed up on rail lines could be used to create new cross-country passenger services”,

such as a High Wycombe-Aylesbury-Northampton route. It is important that when my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State and the Minister of State engage with local communities on the route of HS2 across England they consider the benefits that the initiative and project may have for local communities, so that we see not just clear mitigation, but a clear and immediate local benefit, rather than just a contribution to an initiative for the betterment of the country as a whole.

If we engage constructively and sensibly in dialogue during the coming months and if we all have a clear understanding of what we are trying to achieve, that will assist the Government and substantially reduce the risk of numerous judicial reviews. As my right hon. Friend knows, nothing is more frustrating when timing a Government project than various parties feeling frustrated by the process and that they need to go to judicial review.

I welcome my right hon. Friend to her post and hope that, following our questioning today, she will write to us all in the not-too-distant future with a clear explanation that we can share with our constituents, who are, understandably, worried about the process.