Oral Answers to Questions

Tony Baldry Excerpts

Thursday 24th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

1. What recent representations he has received on the implications of same-sex marriage for the Church.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)]

The Church has had a series of discussions with the Government Equalities Office and officials over the past few weeks regarding the drafting of the Government’s Bill. There have also been meetings between senior Church representatives and the Secretary of State.

The Church of England’s position on the issues of principle were set out clearly in the published submission from the two archbishops last June. I understand that the Bill is to be published later today, and I would prefer to defer any further comment on the detailed drafting of it until Second Reading, which I understand will be soon.

[Miss McIntosh]

I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. Will he give an indication of the timetable that the Church would need in order to implement the rather complicated system envisaged in the Bill?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

That will depend largely on the timetable set out in the Bill, and my hon. Friend gives me the opportunity to clarify one important point. The Church of England is not asking for any special treatment or protection under this legislation; the issue is simply that the Bill should be drafted to ensure that the Church of England has the same freedoms as all other Churches and denominations to decide these matters for itself, and that, of course, must reflect the unique legal position of the Church of England.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

Speaking as someone who had a heterosexual marriage celebrated and registered in church, I hope that the Church Commissioners will explain to Colin Hart, the self-appointed campaign director of the so-called Coalition for Marriage, that having unity and diversity is a good idea, and that nobody in the Church of England ought to be worried about same-sex couples having the same opportunities of marrying as those of the opposite sex.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

These are issues that we will each have to address on a free vote on the Bill’s Second Reading, which I understand will take place soon. It may be for the convenience of the House if I give a brief summary of the submissions made by both archbishops in response to the Government’s earlier consultation, so that there is no ambiguity about the Church of England’s position. In their summary, the two archbishops said:

“The Church of England cannot support the proposal to enable ‘all couples, regardless of their gender, to have a civil marriage ceremony.’ Such a move would alter the intrinsic nature of marriage as the union of a man and a woman, as enshrined in human institutions throughout history…To change the nature of marriage for everyone will be divisive and deliver no obvious legal gains given the rights already conferred by civil partnerships. We also believe that imposing for essentially ideological reasons a new meaning on a term as familiar and fundamental as marriage would be deeply unwise.”

The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission was asked—

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[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

3. What assessment the Church Commissioners have made of ways in which religious education teaching could be improved and ensuring that teachers have an understanding of basic Christianity.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)]

The Church of England’s board of education and diocesan education team share the concerns expressed by my hon. Friend about the quality of RE teaching. The Church is working with the Religious Education Council and other national bodies to ensure that the profile of religious education remains high. I welcome this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend and that of the all-party parliamentary group on religious education, which does so much to highlight those issues.

[Fiona Bruce]

Does my hon. Friend agree that RE is important because it has a crucial role in the spiritual, moral, social and cultural development of children; a pastoral role in creating space in classrooms where they can safely explore ideas about some of life’s most profound challenges and values; and a role in promoting mutual tolerance and understanding? However, does he also agree that, for that to happen, we need good quality RE teacher training and support?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I fully agree with everything my hon. Friend says. That is why we are concerned about the removal of postgraduate certificate in education places for religious education and the minimal amount of time primary teachers receive to address religious education in their training. However, rather more encouraging is the fact that student take-up of religious education at GCSE has been at substantial levels for many years. The number of people sitting RE exams demonstrates that young people are indeed curious about faith and religion.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

4. What the policy of the Church of England is on celebrating civil partnerships.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The Church of England’s position remains as set out in the House of Bishops pastoral statement of July 2005. A working group chaired by the former Northern Ireland Office permanent secretary, Sir Joseph Pilling, is reviewing the Church’s approach to sexuality more generally and will submit a report to the House of Bishops by the end of this year. A private member’s motion seeking to authorise the registration of civil partnerships in Church of England churches is due for discussion in the General Synod in due course.

[Mr Bradshaw]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, a number of senior Church of England bishops have, in the context of the debate on same-sex marriage, expressed their support for civil partnerships, but would the Church of England’s opposition to same-sex marriage, and the distinction it tries to draw, be more credible and have more authority if it allowed Church of England parishes that want to conduct civil partnerships to do so?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The right hon. Gentleman makes his point well. Given the sensitivity of the issue, the most sensible thing for me to do is to ensure that his comments and those of any other right hon. and hon. Members are drawn to the attention of Sir Joseph Pilling.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

5. What assessment he has made of whether the informal discussions among General Synod members in February 2013 will lead to significant progress on enabling women to become bishops.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I refer the hon. Lady to the letter from the secretary-general of the General Synod, which was placed in the Library of the House on 19 December. I understand that the working group established by the House of Bishops had a good first meeting on 3 January. It meets again next Wednesday. The facilitated discussions in early February will be followed immediately by a further meeting of the House of Bishops. I know that all concerned understand the urgency of the situation.

[Diana Johnson]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the document that was produced and put in the House of Commons Library shows no acceleration of the usual glacial way in which the Church of England operates? Does he also accept that in 2015 we could still find ourselves dealing with an unrepresentative laity stopping the Measure? Surely we can something more quickly.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

The hon. Lady is being uncharacteristically uncharitable. Anyone present at the meeting in the Moses Room with the Archbishop of Canterbury-designate would have been left in absolutely no doubt that the Church is determined to take the matter forward with all due speed and diligence. A working group was set up immediately and facilitated discussions will take place next week. It is important to try, as quickly as possible, to find a way forward that enables fresh legislation to be brought before the General Synod in July.

The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission was asked—

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[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)]

The Church of England welcomed the recent judgments from the European Court of Human Rights. The victory of Ms Eweida is a straightforward victory for common sense. In a free country, the wearing of symbols of one’s religious faith should be entirely uncontroversial. I do not believe that Christians, just because they are Christians, should have any greater rights than anyone else in the community, but certainly Christians, because they are Christians, should not have fewer rights.

[Andrew Stephenson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Although Nadia Eweida won her case against British Airways, which I wholeheartedly welcome, a nurse lost her case regarding the wearing of a cross at work, something she had done for 30 years. The Right Reverend the Bishop of Exeter has described the laws as balanced against the rights of conscience and faith. Does my hon. Friend agree with those of us who believe that we still need to do more to protect religious freedoms and tolerance in the British workplace?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

Personally, I think the ECHR got the balance on religious symbols about right. While fully upholding the right of Christians and others to wear discreet religious symbols at work, this, like many other rights, cannot be an absolute. In the case of Ms Chaplin, we fully accept that the need for hospitals to preserve the highest standards of hygiene, and safety has to come first.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

8. What steps are being considered within the Church of England as to how the House of Laity may be made more representative of church congregations.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

Last year, the Synod voted to explore alternatives to the present system under which the House of Laity is elected by deanery synod members. I understand that the report, with options for change, will be discussed by the synod at one of its meetings this year.

[Martin Vickers]

I thank the Church Commissioner for that reply. The unrepresentative nature of the House of Laity is clearly holding the Church back, involving it in interminable, internal debates. Very few congregations are aware of the process of election and very few members of congregations get involved in election. Will he use his good offices to ensure that, as a matter of urgency, new proposals are brought forward?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I think my hon. Friend’s comments will be shared by many throughout the Church, which is why it is exploring alternatives to the present system under which the House of Laity is elected by deanery synod members. I am sure that the comments my hon. Friend makes will be borne in mind when that report comes to be debated later this year.