Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Third sitting)

Terry Jermy Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 12th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Francois]

I understand the hon. Lady’s question, and I do not want to get into an “angels on a pinhead” argument, but that member of staff could be part-time. It could be that on the staff of the commissioner is a qualified KC, but only brought into action when there is a specific legal aspect to be examined—they would not necessarily have to sit in their office five days a week waiting for a case to come in. If there was no work, then they would not necessarily be employed.

I accept that perhaps we should have put the words “part or full-time” into the amendment, but the key thing is that the commissioner would have access to a King’s counsel, even on a part-time basis, to deal with complaints that have a specific legal aspect, including aspects of lawfare. We did not mandate in the amendment that it had to be a full-time role.

[Terry Jermy (South West Norfolk) (Lab)]

I appreciate the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making about whether the role would be full-time, part-time or maybe just a few hours a week. But the fundamental issue for me is that the more restrictions or stipulations we mandate, the more we fundamentally influence the independence of the role, which was part of our open discussion on Tuesday. The more amendments, rules and procedures that we dictate, the more we weaken independence. Does he recognise that concern?

[Mr Francois]

I do, but I have a contrary concern. People are leaving the armed forces in greater numbers than are joining. The other day, the Minister said— he will correct me if I have this wrong—that for every 100 who join, 130 are leaving.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Fourth sitting)

Terry Jermy Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 12th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Francois]

My hon. Friend and I are grateful for that clarification. None the less, we need to put down a marker. We need to make very plain to the Government—not just the MOD, but the Treasury, because it will be a Treasury consultation and it is a Treasury tax—that we regard this point as very important and that we hope and believe that the Government should reverse this measure.

[Terry Jermy (South West Norfolk) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Francois]

No. On that basis, I intend to press the amendment to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Francois]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. She will know, not least from her service on that important Committee, of what is called the statutory override. In a nutshell, local authorities must produce a balanced budget each year, but, because of the very great pressure on local authorities that are also LEAs, they have been allowed to overspend on SEN for several years because it is such a big pressure. Bluntly, it would have bankrupted some of them otherwise. She may be able to update us, but I understand that the default position is that the statutory override is due to expire in March 2026. In other words, when local authorities are planning their new budgets for the ’26-’27 financial year, those budgets will have to balance.

I served on the Public Accounts Committee for a couple of years in the previous Parliament. About a month ago, the National Audit Office produced a report, which I am sure the Education Committee will look at, basically saying that the current system is unsustainable. This will be a challenge for the new Government. I am not trying to make a partisan point here, but it was a challenge for the previous Government and it will be a challenge for the new Labour Government, too. I mention that just to drive home the scale of the SEN challenge. There is no evidence that armed forces personnel are proportionately more or less likely to have a special needs child than members of civilian communities, so statistically it is a big problem for them, too.

[Terry Jermy]

Will the shadow Minister give way?

[Mr Francois]

I am trying to wind up, but I will give way if the hon. Gentleman wishes to make a point. This is an important topic.

[Terry Jermy]

In a surgery just two weeks ago, I had a serving member of the armed forces who is no longer deployable because he has to homeschool his child as a result of failure in relation to SEND. Does the shadow Minister agree that one of the big challenges is that this is widespread across the whole country? It is not just a problem for us in Norfolk. If my constituent were to be deployed elsewhere, there would be exactly the same challenges, because the issue is widespread across the whole country.

[Mr Francois]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I do not have the NAO report in front of me, and that is my fault—forgive me—but from memory, it made the point that this was a nationwide problem. The scale of the problem was such that it did not just affect region or another; it touched pretty much everywhere. I think the NAO focused mainly on England and Wales, but certainly in those two nations this was a big problem, and I have nothing to lead me to believe that it is not a problem in Scotland or Northern Ireland.

On childcare, I should add that one result of “Stick or Twist?” was that the then Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, managed to use the report as ammunition to persuade the Treasury to invest quite a lot of money in childcare facilities for armed forces personnel. The Minister will know how difficult that can be. It included improving childcare facilities at a number of military installations around the country and, in some cases, extending the hours to something more akin to wraparound childcare. For the record, if only for that, the report was worth writing.

I think we have given this issue a good go, and I know my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne wants to raise another, so I will leave it there. I am sure the Minister understands the spirit of this clause stand part debate, and I very much hope that he can give us some good news in this area. I am sure that the whole Committee, as well as the armed forces and their families, would welcome that.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (First sitting)

Terry Jermy Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Francois]

Thank you very much.

[Terry Jermy (South West Norfolk) (Lab)]

Q Sir Andrew, I work closely with SSAFA. You have some fantastic volunteers in Norfolk. Thank you for the work your organisation does.

Lt General Sir Andrew Gregory: Thank you very much.

[Terry Jermy]

Prior to my current role, I was a local councillor for a number of years. I worked with SSAFA to encourage people to come forward, first of all to raise an issue, but more often to formalise the issue. Encouraging people to go through that process was quite a barrier. Do you think these proposals will encourage people to be prepared to raise and formalise issues?

Lt General Sir Andrew Gregory: That is a great question. Your previous session discussed how to generate trust. I thought that was a good question too because this person must be trusted. They have to be sufficiently trusted by the chain of command, but equally trusted by the community, to fairly champion their views without, when appropriate, revealing their identity. The challenge we find with many service personnel, particularly veterans, is that they are often too proud to admit they are finding life difficult, perhaps while they are serving and often once they have left the military. They do not want to admit they are a charity case.

Going back to the question of trust, this commissioner is going to have to work hard to say, “I really am here for you. I am here to champion your issues in whatever way we feel is collectively appropriate.” They will also have to work hard to ensure that the chain of command does not get defensive, but instead sees this as an opportunity. I was not serving when Mariette Hughes was the Service Complaints Ombudsman, but when Nicola Williams was doing the job we talked regularly. I was effectively on one side as the policy lead in the Ministry of Defence and she was on the other side. Success to me would have been more complaints. For those of you who have not met Nicola, she is a very approachable person, but trying to get people to have the confidence to step forward, to go to her and say, “This ain’t fair,” was really difficult. The intent is good and I support it, but I think building confidence will continue to be a challenge.

[Terry Jermy]

Q The word “commissioner” means different things to different people. Do you have any views on the use of that title and do you think it is appropriate?

Lt General Sir Nicholas Pope: I heard the answers given by the previous panel. I am relaxed about this. What is in a word? We use “veteran” to pick up smorgasbord of individuals. We use “service” for the sector indivisibly. Moving from ombudsman to commissioner does, I suppose, demonstrate a shift in a position. If we use a word from a communications perspective, to get people to think differently, there is utility in that. Having spoken to Mariette about this, although I do not want to put words into her mouth, I suspect she feels she is prescribed in some of her activities by the way that her job has been set up. In moving to “commissioner” we have a chance to think about seeing the new post through a different prism and communicating that well, both to the current armed forces serving community and to those who are to come.

If I may go slightly off-piste, the average tenure of somebody who is serving is about seven years. In that time, most individuals will graze through without ever coming across the ombudsman. Looking forward, one of our challenges—probably a challenge both for the commissioner’s post and for the wraparound of the Department—is to ensure that young men and women who join in the future recognise that function and the idea of a champion who sits outwith the chain of command and gives them a chance to have their voice heard. Thinking about generation Z and beyond, in an area in which agency at the individual level is increasingly important, that matters.

[David Reed]

Q Flipping Terry’s question on its head, could it actually have negative implications in terms of culture in service life and usher in a new wave of complaining?

Lt General Sir Nicholas Pope: What we have to be very careful about, in relation to the commissioner’s role, is ensuring that we do not chase demons unnecessarily. I love the phrase, the bumper sticker, that underpins the armed forces covenant:

“a thriving Armed Forces community that is valued and supported within our society.”

It has five key points: thriving, armed forces community, value, support and society. Some 97% or 98% of the young men and women who go through service have a fantastic time and come out with additional skills, valued by the individual, valued by organisations that employ them, and valued by society for having served. As for support, in my territory, in the charity sector and in some of the statutory service provision, it is about catching those who need support and getting them back to being thriving members of society.

There is a danger that by concentrating on the areas of damage, harm and complaint, we will not have the context in which we see people thrive. Why is that important? It is because we want young men and women to join the armed forces in the future. They have to recognise that there is value in so doing and that service benefits not only the nation but also themselves as individuals. That is the area in which we need to capture the context, I suppose.

Lt General Sir Andrew Gregory: I completely agree. We need as a nation to better promote the narrative that service in the armed forces is good for people, it makes great people; that it does not damage the majority, and there are systems to pick up those who are damaged.

I do not see the commissioner as a threat. As I said earlier, that did worry me previously. Nick and I have both been commanding officers. When I was a commanding officer, who could the soldiers and officers go to if they wanted to talk to somebody outside the chain of command? They could go to the padre, the doctor, and perhaps the welfare officer, but particularly the padre and the doctor because they were independent. The padre or doctor would have to get the trust of those individuals because often the solution was within the remit of the chain of command. They had to get those individuals’ trust so that they could say, “I would like to go back to the commanding officer with this, and then we can see how we can work through it.” For some, that was a tricky hurdle to overcome.

What the Service Complaints Ombudsman has provided, and what the commissioner will provide, is something at a higher level. I know it is simplistic, but it is not dissimilar to those people who can pick up individual and systemic themes that are affecting people. The chain of command has got to get used to it. The role is not that of a federation or a union, which would have been very different and very dangerous in my view. I do not see it as that. It is an opportunity to improve life and to improve trust on both sides. I really mean that.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill (Second sitting)

Terry Jermy Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th December 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)]

Q You will have seen the witness list for today, and you will notice that the only people we do not get to consult are the military chain of command because their views are, for constitutional reasons, vested in the Minister. I will ask the air commodore and the colonel to rewind a bit to when they were serving in the military as part of the chain of command on frontline operations; I know you both served time in the training base. Do you see the potential for the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, as drafted, to erode the authority of the military chain of command?

Air Commodore Simon Harper: I am happy to take the question. Yes, I suppose there is that potential. The chain of command still has a vital role. Where I could see the benefit is that, having gone through and made my point about the offer being multifaceted, the response for the serving person and their family is multifaceted as well. The Armed Forces Commissioner can play a key role in that.

There will be times, I suspect, when the legislation will come into conflict—perhaps that is the wrong term—with the chain of command. I still think the chain of command must be the overarching way in which military effect and operational output is delivered. That is the success of how it is done. But I think that, appropriately placed, the Armed Forces Commissioner can support, augment and, in co-operation with the chain of command, improve the lives of the serving person and the family. There is a risk, of course, but I think it can work.

Col. Darren Doherty: I agree with all that. There is potential for the Bill to undermine the chain of command and potential for it to work against the chain of command; much depends on the selection of the right individual to do the role and on the role being developed and there being a framework for operating how the office goes about its business beyond what is laid out in the Bill. This is about building trust and confidence with those it supports, including individuals who might bring things to the attention of the commissioner, and also about the confidence of the wider organisation as well.

To answer your question, there is that potential, but everything that I have read in the Bill, heard in the debates and read in Hansard is in people’s minds. I listened to some of the earlier speakers today comparing it the outwith-the-chain-of-command ways that we have with dealing with issues now. You will well remember dealing with the padre and medical officers as something outside the chain of command.

All those things do not happen overnight. Those need to be built up as individual relationships in terms of trust within organisations. This is something new—a step beyond what the ombudsman provides. It will take time and careful implementation, from a practical perspective, for it to work. But I do see that there is huge benefit in having such an office there for the individual and the organisation and in support of the chain of command as well. They can potentially all work together.

[Terry Jermy (South West Norfolk) (Lab)]

Q My question follows nicely on from that. Colonel Doherty, I was reading your CV in the paperwork and I was struck by the range of experience and the number of different locations that you have served in. I join colleagues in thanking you for that service; I was pleased to read that report. Given your experience of active service, and now your new role—your experience on both sides—do you feel that the commissioner would be seen as sufficiently strong and independent to encourage people to come forward?

Col. Darren Doherty: The legislation is certainly strong enough to put them in that position. Again, it goes back to the type of individual selected for the role and the trust and the confidence that they build with the community. I can speak only on behalf of the Army.

It will take a period of time to educate people on what the role is. That is why it is absolutely critical that the Bill is fit for purpose and, more importantly, that the policy and framework that sit beyond it, in terms of implementation, are right as well, and that we are absolutely clear where the boundaries and responsibilities for the office lie, and also the gearing between it and other offices.

That goes back to one of the issues raised a few times in the debate, which is the scope of the role—looking predominantly at the community subject to service law and how that relates to the wider military community, going back to that continuum of service. How that all interlocks with what is currently provided by the Minister for Veterans and People and veterans commissioners, where they exist, is all very important in the messaging and communicating with the community.

It is a wide remit. It is summed up in a few small sentences, but dealing with welfare issues could be incredibly complex and wide-ranging. There are very few welfare issues that do not straddle the serving family and go into the veteran space in a sort of time continuum. Those are all important parts of the messaging of what the role is going to be about.

[Helen Maguire]

Q I have a few questions. Colonel Doherty, you have travelled throughout the world during your career. You have been to Yemen, Kuwait, Afghanistan and various other places. How do you see the commissioner reaching military personnel serving in other parts of the world?

Col. Darren Doherty: The legislation is clear where access is permitted and enabled. It will be a challenge where matters of operational security come into it, but I think all those are manageable. Again, it is about the framework of how the office will operate—it will need to be right where it is needed.

My experience of operations, going back to my previous experience, but close to my heart, is that welfare is a chain-of-command business. It is what officers, senior non-commissioned officers and junior non-commissioned officers get paid to do. I am always minded that they often do that best on operations. I would hope that the commissioner’s role would be less needed in operations, but that is yet to be proved by evidence or experience. I would hope that we get on with that better there than perhaps we do in some of the quieter, peacetime locations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Amanda Martin]

Q We have heard about the erosion of the contract and that the same issues are raised time and time again. On top of that, the MOD has already produced several independent although non-binding reports to Parliament—Haythornthwaite, Kerslake, Sheldon, Etherton, Atherton. What makes this different? How and why will this make a difference?

Luke Pollard: With the exception of the Atherton review, which was a House of Commons Defence Committee report—a very good one—most of those reports have been externally commissioned: often commissioned by the Government to report on an issue they had chosen. The point of the commissioner is that they would not be informed by ministerial priorities or by looking at the areas the Government of the day wanted to look at; they would be informed by the representation that they received from armed forces personnel and their families. I think that is a really important distinction.

In many cases, reports have been commissioned but things have not necessarily been done. This legislation provides a route for parliamentarians to receive the report and to be able to raise questions and concerns. I would expect the commissioner to be a regular attendee of the House of Commons Defence Committee. It would be for that Committee to determine how, when and in what format that would take place, but I would expect there to be a brighter spotlight on those issues, precisely to stop these reports and recommendations being long-grassed, as we might have seen over the last decade.

[Terry Jermy]

Q In the very first witness comments, I was struck by the observation that, because the current ombudsman role is funded by the Government, there is perhaps an acknowledgment that that weakens the role’s independence. Of course, the new commissioner will be funded by the Government as well. Are you aware of that concern? I appreciate Helen Maguire’s comments about independence. Are you confident that there are sufficient safeguards around independence to encourage people to come forward?

Luke Pollard: I am. The reason we have drafted the legislation as we have is to be absolutely clear about a separation of this commissioner’s office from the Ministry of Defence. I think the point that Mariette was making in her evidence is that the funding has to come from somewhere. However, I think it is the way that the commissioner is appointed, how they operate and how they build trust and confidence with our people that will build the independence in the role.

We can legislate for independence and separation, as we have done, but it is the operation of the role that will build trust with the people. That is why I will expect the commissioner to be on the road, visiting our forces and having those conversations, in order to build the trust. I will expect them to have a robust scrutiny process in terms of their appointment, and to be able to give Ministers a tough ride on the delivery of the issues that matter.

That is the reason we are doing this. If this role did not have any teeth, there would be no point in legislating for it. I want this role to be able to carry a really bright spotlight, to shine on the issues that are affecting our people—because ultimately, if we do that, we recruit more people, we retain more people and more people want to rejoin our armed forces, improving morale and service life. That ultimately improves our operational effectiveness as a military.

[Juliet Campbell (Broxtowe) (Lab)]

Q A few of the witnesses today have spoken about “relevant family members” and the fact that that has not been defined in the Bill. Why did the Bill not adopt the existing armed forces covenant definition, which may have made it a little easier?

Luke Pollard: The Bill itself is not a stand-alone piece of legislation. It might be useful for hon. Members to understand that, effectively, it inserts legislation into the already existing Armed Forces Act 2021, which includes a section—I think it is section 340—that already includes the armed forces covenant. However, we did not want to specify the relevant family member in primary legislation; we wanted to be able to take more time to have conversations with stakeholders and define that through secondary legislation.

If the definitions were to change in the future, that could change. We have seen that the question of what a family is has changed. For me, a family is the most important unit of society, but what and how it is will be different for every different family. We are trying to find the right definition. I imagine the commissioner will have a view on that, and they can then make recommendations on that basis. That is why there is the option of being able to revise the definition via secondary legislation, which is an easier process than undertaking primary legislation—and the Armed Forces Bill comes round only once every five years.

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

Terry Jermy Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Terry Jermy (South West Norfolk) (Lab)]

I am pleased to speak in support of these proposals for a number of reasons, but particularly because I come from a family who have public service, including military service, in our blood. A number of my family have served in the armed forces. Of particular note is my uncle, Clifford Berry, who served for more than 22 years in the Royal Engineers. That role saw him complete two tours in Northern Ireland, as well as a posting overseas in Germany and service in the Falkland Islands.

Support for our armed services is rooted in the DNA of my constituency too. In the north of South West Norfolk we are proud to host RAF Marham—home to the F-35 Lightning squadron—and 3,600 service personnel and their families. At the other end, just outside the constituency boundary, is RAF Honington in Suffolk, home to the RAF Regiment and the specialist counter-chemical, nuclear and biological weapons team. Although I admit that that base is physically located in Suffolk, it is in my hometown of Thetford that many of its personnel and their families are based. Recently, I was proud to grant them the freedom of the town. Nearby, we also have RAF Mildenhall and RAF Lakenheath, which work alongside our friends and allies from the United States.

In the light of that interconnected patchwork of military personnel, it is little wonder that people in my constituency are so passionate and supportive of our armed services. During the lead-up to Remembrance Day, I was proud to support local volunteers from the Royal British Legion in collecting funds as part of the poppy appeal. As well as the important task of raising money, I was pleased to speak to so many people about why they wanted to support the RBL and about their personal connections to our armed forces. It was a truly honourable and enjoyable few hours, and my thanks go to Heather, a local RBL volunteer, for hosting me.

In my role as a local councillor, however, I have seen a different side to things. I have had to issue food bank vouchers to families of service personnel as they have struggled to make ends meet. I and fellow councillors have repeatedly had to complain about the state of military housing, and raised issues about mould and damp, which have impacted on family health. As my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger) highlighted, military housing is all too often ageing, poorly insulated and not energy efficient, and as a result many families spend a disproportionate sum of money on heating their homes. In some parts of Norfolk they are paying £25 a day for their electricity because of poor insulation, and they are often given electric heaters, which offer no solution. Many of those homes provide a miserable existence in winter months, with draughts, cold floors, damp and mould.

It has occurred to me in recent months that our shared respect and support for our armed services are not adequately reflected in the systems designed to support them. I hope that the new commissioner will change that. As a number of Members have remarked, the first duty of any Government is to keep our country safe. At the heart of our security are the men and women who serve and risk their lives in defence of our nation.

It is also worth mentioning how the erosion of our public services more generally over the past 14 years has been impacting on service personnel and their families. In my Downham Market constituency surgery, a serving member of the military recently told me about his son, who has additional needs. As a family, they were unable to find suitable education and so were forced to home-school their son. Dad was forced to work from home, and he was no longer deployable, which took a very skilled operative out of the service and meant an unwelcome pay cut for the family. I am proud that the Labour Government recognise the sacrifices made not only by those in uniform, but by their families.

The new commissioner, as a direct point of contact for serving personnel and, importantly, for their families, will be able to raise the full breadth of issues that impact on service life. The power to proactively investigate is important, as is the ability to access information and visit sites, because—believe me—seeing is believing when it comes to some of these issues.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey) captured this point brilliantly earlier. So often there is a culture of not wanting to speak out; of not wanting to rock the boat. I hear so many times that military families do not want to create a fuss. The independent aspect of this role is so important, and I would be grateful if the Minister clarified further the independence of the commissioner. I am sure that would be of great interest to my constituents. Safeguarding whistleblowing is important.

The Bill is a big step forward, and I am very happy to support it on behalf of the residents of South West Norfolk.