Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill

Steve Rotheram Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

I welcome the Government’s proposals, but I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman, like me, is surprised that page 10 of the Bill research paper states that the IPCC cannot already compel serving police officers simply to attend an interview in connection with any ongoing investigation. Does he believe that there should be clear sanctions against those who refuse to do that?

[Damian Green]

The hon. Gentleman asked two questions. First, he asked whether I was surprised that the power did not already exist. To some extent, yes I am. Obviously, the IPCC was set up under the Police Reform Act 2002 and given powers then. Perhaps this is the first time that so much focus has been on it—indeed, it has caused the House to agree to emergency legislation to give the IPCC that particular power.

Secondly, I know that sanctions are of particular concern. As has been said, we will debate the matter in detail on an amendment to the relevant clause in Committee later. However, I preview my thoughts on that by pointing out that clear sanctions will be available to chief constables and forces to apply to those who refuse to obey what will be an IPCC instruction, and later a requirement. They will be very powerful.

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[Damian Green]

The IPCC is still going through that information. The majority of officers may well have retired by now. This is a large undertaking and represents the biggest single investigation that the IPCC has ever done. It estimates that this will involve it investigating more than 2,400 officers. That is the overall quantum—the actual division is not yet clear. Obviously, many officers may have moved to other forces, and so on.

[Steve Rotheram]

If the right hon. Gentleman will not put sanctions in the Bill, as seems likely, what confidence does he have that police forces will take the necessary disciplinary action against serving officers who refuse to help the IPCC?

[Damian Green]

I have very great confidence in that. There are two points to make in response to the hon. Gentleman, the first of which is that similar sanctions under the conduct regulations are not in any other Bill, so it would be anomalous suddenly to pluck out the sanction for this offence and put it in legislation. Secondly, and more importantly in practical terms, given the enormous and understandable public interest in the matter, the relevant chief officers will be extremely keen to ensure that they use their powers to take sanctions—ultimately, officers who break the conduct regulations in that way can be dismissed. The conversations I have had with senior officers in recent days suggest that that is the case.

I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) that the IPCC has said that the investigation will be the biggest it has ever undertaken. The Government recognise the additional burden that such a large investigation places on it. We have made it clear that we will ensure that the commission has both the powers and the resources it needs to conduct its investigations into Hillsborough. We take that commitment seriously, which is why we have introduced this fast-track Bill.

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[Damian Green]

Yes, absolutely. I agree unequivocally, and it is a widely held view in the police service as well. I know that the hon. Lady understands that retired police officers are just members of the public, however, and therefore that giving the IPCC powers that the police do not have to compel witnesses to appear would be anomalous and certainly not something we would want to do through emergency fast-track legislation. Nevertheless, she made the moral case very powerfully.

The IPCC has existing powers to interview officers and former officers who are themselves the subject of an investigation for either a conduct or a criminal matter. The IPCC can already compel a suspect to attend an interview, but it needs to hear from officers not just when they themselves are the subject of the investigation. It also needs to obtain evidence through interviews from those who might have seen the events unfold, when they might have seen or heard of fellow officers amending statements and records—in other words, when they had witnessed key events in relation to Hillsborough.

As I have said, the IPCC can compel officers who are themselves under investigation to attend for interview. Clause 1 extends this power so that serving police officers and police staff can be compelled to attend for interview as witnesses as part of any investigation managed or independently undertaken by the IPCC. The power will apply to officers in Home Office forces and other policing bodies, such as the British Transport police. I am clear that any serving officer who fails to comply with a request to attend such an interview should face disciplinary measures. I emphasise that point once again.

That is consistent with the existing regime that applies when a person who is the subject of an investigation fails to attend for interview. For the sake of clarity, I will repeat that such disciplinary matters may have serious consequences, including— ultimately—dismissal. I have set out that the power granted through clause 1 applies to individuals still serving with the police. The IPCC will not be able to compel a retired officer to attend an interview as a witness through the use of this power.

Several hon. members have asked why the provision should not apply to retired officers, but, as I said, they are in the same position as ordinary members of the public and so are no longer bound legally by the same responsibility as serving officers—although the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) made the point about moral responsibility. To grant the IPCC the power to require a retired officer to give evidence simply as a witness would provide the IPCC with greater powers over the public than those available to the police. I think the House would rightly be uncomfortable about that.

Let me again be clear, however: that does not mean that the IPCC cannot or will not investigate retired officers for misconduct or criminality that they might have committed. The IPCC will do that. We are just not providing the IPCC with the power, at this stage, to compel such retired officers to attend an interview as a witness to events on the day or thereafter. Crucially, the IPCC has not asked for that power in relation to the Hillsborough investigation, so the House does not need to rush its consideration of the matter.

I know that many concerns have been expressed in the House and outside that an officer who wants to avoid the repercussions of their actions can simply retire and avoid all sanction, but that is not the case. The IPCC can and will investigate any individual suspected of criminal behaviour. It has the powers it needs to pursue these individuals and bring them to book. For example, the IPCC already has the power to require an individual, serving or retired, who is suspected of misconduct or criminal behaviour to attend an interview. The IPCC can, in appropriate cases, refer a matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions where there is evidence of criminality in relation to Hillsborough.

If an individual is subsequently convicted of a criminal offence, in connection with their service as a police officer, they could lose the majority of their pension. It will be for the relevant police and crime commissioner to apply for this sanction. That is in addition to any penalty ordered by a court. Let me be clear: charges can be brought regardless of the employment status of the individual concerned.

[Steve Rotheram]

Just for the record, will the Minister clarify something? Criminal behaviour could lead to someone who is serving or who is retired facing a reduction in their pension. What happens if somebody is found guilty not of criminal behaviour, but of wrongdoing? Does the same sanction still apply?

[Damian Green]

The sanctions apply if someone is convicted of a criminal offence—I think that is the point the hon. Gentleman wishes to be clarified. If someone has not been convicted of a criminal offence, matters affecting their pension would, not least, engage human rights legislation as well, so things would be much more difficult in those cases.

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[Damian Green]

Again, it will be a matter for the IPCC to decide what to do with the evidence it finds. Inevitably, in this kind of investigation, the evidence it finds will be public. I think I can see where the hon. Gentleman is trying to go. As I say, the IPCC has considerable powers of investigation and it could make things public that might enable someone to make a complaint, at which point it would have to decide whether its powers were sufficient or whether its new powers conferred under this Bill could be triggered. The underlying point is that the IPCC is independent: it is for the IPCC to decide what best to do with the evidence it finds during the course of its investigations.

The Bill is narrow in scope, but crucial to the process of achieving justice for the 96 individuals who died as a result of the Hillsborough disaster, for those who were injured and for the families and friends of all involved.

[Steve Rotheram]

I thank the Minister for his patience again, but I am certain that he must understand the nervousness on Merseyside when this particular issue goes through this House. I know, because I have spoken to him, that the Minister is fully aware of and appreciates the current situation of Anne Williams, whose online e-petition reached over 100,000 signatures some weeks ago. Will he assure us that none of the investigations that will be carried out through the additional powers of the Bill will in any way impact on the time scale of the new inquests? Will he say more about his latest expectations regarding the timing of the application to the High Court to quash the original unsound verdicts?

[Damian Green]

On the first point, I know that the IPCC is extremely aware of the desire for things not to appear to be unduly delayed. Indeed, that is one reason why we are here today—to put a Bill through all its stages in one day, which shows that the House and the Government are trying to speed the process up as much as we can.

On the application to the High Court, I know that my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General is proceeding as fast as he can, and I think a decision will be made public very shortly. I can go no further than that, but the hon. Gentleman’s wider point is well made, and I absolutely take it. I am very conscious that people want to see that this process, having started after the report, is not unduly delayed at any stage. I am very keen, as I know are many other people who have been involved from the start, that that should happen.

That explains why the House should not today consider the wider reform of the IPCC, although we will examine whether there are other gaps in its powers. We have asked it what tools it needs to progress its investigations into Hillsborough, and this short Bill will ensure that it has the two additional powers for which it asked. The Bill thus represents an important step on the road from truth to justice for Hillsborough. All who support that aim will, I hope, support this Bill. I commend it to the House.

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[Mr Hanson]

I hope it can be said that death does not bear a party banner, and that the tragedies faced by many of my constituents and those of other Members throughout the House have led us to take action that will achieve the justice that they seek, the justice that they want, and the justice for which they have fought in the face of the lies that have been perpetuated in the community around them for so many years.

We should recognise that the Bill is one step—albeit a small step—towards our achieving justice for the 96 families, their friends, their relatives, and the many people who were injured on that day; but we should also recognise that that journey towards justice is far from over. As we have heard today, the Attorney-General is considering whether there should be a fresh inquest. We certainly want to see the verdicts of the original inquest crushed, and we want the Director of Public Prosecutions to review as a matter of urgency evidence relating to the important matters that occurred that day. The Independent Police Complaints Commission is, of course, already looking into the conduct of police officers.

The Bill is part of the process of securing justice for the relatives, friends and families, but it is only part of that process. Justice will not be achieved until all the matters to which I have referred have been dealt with to the satisfaction of the families, in line with the Hillsborough panel’s recommendations.

Based on the report, the IPCC wants to look into two potential criminal and misconduct issues. First, it wants to examine the conduct of the police on 15 April 1989, addressing the culpability of the individuals and organisations involved and the safety standards, planning and operational decisions of that day that led to the Hillsborough disaster. Secondly, an equally important, but perhaps even worse, series of incidents is being examined: the evidence suggesting a cover-up in the weeks, months and years after the disaster. Of the 164 statements taken by officers on that day, no fewer than 116 were changed in some way, shape or form. That is deceit on a huge scale and we need to get to the bottom of it for the sake not only of the integrity of the police, but of justice for the 96.

I thank the Home Secretary for having listened to the concerns expressed by the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford about the powers available to the IPCC. It must have the tools it needs to carry out a thorough investigation into both allegations of criminality and misconduct and the events of the day. The families who have campaigned for that—as well as for the inquest, for the quashing of the verdicts and for the Director of Public Prosecutions to review the evidence—demand no less.

My right hon. Friend called in October for the inquiry to have those powers, because she recognises that it must get to the bottom of why so many police statements were altered. Although the IPCC can pursue officers it believes to have committed crimes, it does not at present have powers to compel serving or former officers to be interviewed as witnesses; nor can it compel civilians to give evidence. Those obstacles must be removed, and the Bill achieves that. What consultations did the Minister have with the families prior to the publication of the Bill, and does he intend to have further discussions with representatives of the families in the next few weeks?

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) has said, the Home Affairs Committee welcomes the Bill. It has also made some helpful comments, and I hope the Minister will reflect on them. It is clear that the IPCC does not have the powers it needs to meet the objectives it has set itself. Indeed, it has informed the Home Affairs Committee that

“where police officers refuse to attend for interview, IPCC investigators can only seek the information they need through the submission of written questions to officers via their solicitors or other representatives. Not only can this seriously undermine public confidence in IPCC investigations, it can also impact on the overall effectiveness and timeliness of investigations.”

Clause 1 will remedy that, and I welcome it.

There is a separate issue. My right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary has rightly asked Lord Stevens to address in his independent review for our party whether there should be a new police standards body and to look at the role of the IPCC going forward. That is a debate for another day, but as the Minister has recognised, in the longer term we will need to put in place a strong body to provide the safeguards and standards required to hold the police to account. That will take time, however, and the friends and families of the victims and the communities of Merseyside, Liverpool, my area of north Wales and beyond demand that we have early action. That is why this Bill is before us today.

[Steve Rotheram]

On the need for urgency, does my right hon. Friend agree that the Bill does not inhibit our ability to establish a lead investigator to oversee the myriad current investigations, and that that might help Parliament to understand the need for urgency?

[Mr Hanson]

I am very much on the side of my hon. Friend, and I again want to pay tribute to him and to the impact he has made on these matters since his election in May 2010. He knows the community where he lives and which he represents. He knows that they want to see those matters dealt with urgently, as do all hon. Members; those of us who have bereaved relatives in our constituencies know what that means to them and how they want to see the main important matters that my hon. Friend has brought forward addressed.

Clause 1 will amend the Police Reform Act 2002 to confer witness attendance powers on the Independent Police Complaints Commission. The way in which that will be done is set out in newly published regulations from the Minister, which will adopt a similar approach to that set out in the 2002 Act. Clause 2, on the application of part 2 of the 2002 Act, will deal with questions that the Minister has also mentioned. It will amend the legislation currently preventing the IPCC from investigating any matters previously considered by the Police Complaints Authority. Given that these issues occurred under the PCA’s jurisdiction, it is vital that that bit of the Bill is also put in place.

Later on we will deal with an amendment, but it is important to refer now to the issue at the heart of it. I have pressed the Minister strongly, as have my right hon. Friends the Members for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford and for Leigh, on the issue of the sanctions in place should an officer fail to attend an interview. Such an officer would indeed be subject to misconduct proceedings, and the Minister has explained to me privately, and has explained to the House today, how he believes those will deal with that issue. I simply say to him that we will be maintaining a strong watching brief, because we may need to revisit the sanctions issue either in Committee or at a later date.

The amendment tabled by the all-party group on the Hillsborough disaster, so ably chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), raises that issue. We will have the debate when we deal with the amendment, but it is important that those who refuse to address the needs of the IPCC—if there are such people, and there may not be—face some sanction. The Minister has made it clear to me that that will involve police misconduct proceedings, which could involve dismissal, loss of pension or other issues. The key question is this: is the sanction sufficient? We will test that at a later date.

Discussions also have progressed with my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary and myself on the IPCC’s inability to compel retired officers to attend interviews. The Minister has agreed to look at this matter. He has given an explanation again as to why retired officers should not be eligible to be brought for interview; this was because of the difficulties of legislation and other related matters. In a letter that he sent the shadow Home Secretary on 22 November, which was copied to me, he said:

“As I set out on Monday, we understand the calls to grant a power to compel retired officers to attend interviews, and” —

this is important—

“will consider these in slower time, but do not feel it is appropriate to grant such a wide-ranging power through fast track legislation.”

Will the Minister indicate during this debate what exactly he means by “slower time”? I would like to know with whom he is discussing these issues, when he intends to report back to the House on them, and whether he will explore the issues that we have discussed in respect of human rights legislation and pension confiscation. Will he report back to the House after this fast-track legislation on those matters?

A commitment made by the Minister today—even now, dare I say it—from across the Dispatch Box to report back to this House on those matters would be of great interest. It would be very much welcomed by Members of this House, who are concerned that officers involved in incidents at Hillsborough who have retired will not be subject to criminal proceedings because they are not involved in criminal activity but could give information that is beneficial to a range of other matters relating to the Hillsborough inquiry. I want to know from the Minister, now or later, what he means by “slower time”, because it is important. I would welcome reassurance that those powers are available and will be considered. I will not push him further than that today, but we will revisit the question in due course.

I would also like the Minister to confirm my understanding of the situation with the IPCC’s oversight as it extends to private contractors that provide services to or on behalf of the police. The legislation is put in place for Hillsborough, but also for other events, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) mentioned, and for all time until it is changed by future legislation. Will the Minister confirm that police community support officers and those individuals who undertake private contracting for the police force will come under the auspices of the Bill? I know the answer to that question, but I want the Minister to put it on the record in the Chamber before the Bill is passed.

I welcome the fact that the IPCC has suggested that it will be in a position to take witnesses early in the next year. All Members of this House who are involved, both those who represent the city of Sheffield—I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) in her place—and those who represent constituencies in the north-west would welcome an early conclusion. The Minister has been keen to say that the investigation will be independent, but I would welcome some indication of the time scale within which, once the Bill has been approved, he would expect the IPCC to conclude its consideration of these matters. If he cannot do that today and wants to give it further consideration outside the Chamber, I would welcome it if he could drop a note to Members who speak on the subject on Second Reading. An indication from the IPCC of its intended time scale would certainly be welcome.

I genuinely support the Minister’s Bill, but I would also welcome his comments on correspondence that I have received in the last 24 to 36 hours from bodies representing the police that have considered the Bill post-publication. It worries me, so I ask the Minister to give some consideration to the points it raises. First, I have a letter from the Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales addressed to my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary and copied to me. It is from Chief Superintendent Derek Barnett, the president of the association, and the very first line states:

“It is disappointing that the only notification…of this legislation was a telephone call from an official the day before the Bill was tabled.”

He goes on to say that he shares

“your commitment to ensuring that the Hillsborough case is fully and properly investigated in a manner that is both expeditious and thorough, and with the eventual outcome that the full circumstances of those terrible events are once and for all indentified and that justice can be seen to have been done.”

The police superintendents support elements of the Bill, but I am slightly surprised that they were not consulted about it as a whole apart from by telephone on the day before it was tabled. Between now and the Bill’s consideration in the other place, will the Minister meet the superintendents or contact them and listen to the points they want to make? I support the Bill as it is, but the superintendents want to make some points about it and the lack of consultation is concerning. They will have a role to play on these matters in future and the Minister might find that they support him.

I also have a similar letter from the Police Federation. It is from the deputy general secretary, Stephen Smith, who states on page 2:

“I have to say that I am personally disappointed by the action taken in issuing the Bill, rather than consulting with the sub-committee in the first instance. I believe this course of action demeans the very important work that has been carried out over the last 7 years.”

The sub-committee to which he refers is the Police Advisory Board for England and Wales sub-committee, which is a negotiating body on these matters.

Whatever our view on a range of incidents, the police have an important say on this matter, and the fact that they have not been formally consulted is an oversight. Between now and Second Reading in another place, if the Bill progresses today, as I expect it to do, will the Minister make contact with the Police Federation to give the police an opportunity to have their say?

My final point relates to the scope of the Bill. The Minister knows that he is the Policing Minister for England and Wales, and that potentially, as we discussed outside the Chamber, police officers who in 1989 worked for a force in England and Wales may now work for a force in Scotland or Northern Ireland, outside the Minister’s jurisdiction. We raised the matter in our informal discussions and I do not believe I have had a response from the Minister, unless I missed it. I would welcome an update on the progress that he has had with the devolved Administrations in Northern Ireland and Scotland on ensuring that the terms of the Bill would not encounter any difficulties from those Administrations. They are different Administrations and have different police forces. If somebody is now employed by the Police Service of Northern Ireland or the Scottish police force, that could present difficulties. I would like to see the matter resolved. The Minister has said outside the Chamber that he has discussed it and is coming to a conclusion on it.

I welcome support for the Bill from Liberty, the human rights group, which believes that this is the right course of action. There is cross-community support for the Bill and I wish it fair passage. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) referred in an intervention to the petition organised by Anne Williams. Perhaps the Minister winding up the debate can give us an update. As we know, Anne Williams has a very difficult and challenging illness and wishes to ensure that her concerns about her family’s loss are resolved before her illness reaches a sad conclusion, as she expects it to do. We should consider an early opportunity to discuss that petition again in the House. May I press the Minister for an early answer from the Department on the earliest possible inquest into the family of Anne Williams?

The Bill has widespread support. There are some issues which I have raised with the Minister today that we want to see explored in detail, but I know as somebody who represents families who lost relatives at Hillsborough, I know from being born and growing up in Liverpool the community that I represent, I know from my support for that football team for my entire life, and I know from the contributions, work and efforts of my right hon. and hon. Friends from across the region and across my area of north Wales that the events of Hillsborough in 1989 caused such challenge, tragedy and concern that we now want justice for the families of those 96 victims and others who were injured.

Through their effort, passion and commitment the families have brought the case to the stage that we are at today, where an inquest is potentially pending, verdicts can be quashed and the Director of Public Prosecutions is going to act on the matter. The Bill gives an opportunity for the Independent Police Complaints Commission to provide answers and take real action on the concerns that have existed for many years. I welcome the Second Reading of the Bill. We will return to issues in due course in Committee, but the Opposition support the Bill here and in another place and look forward to the day when the IPCC’s investigation leads to satisfaction, truth and justice for the families of those who were lost in Sheffield on that day in 1989.

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[Steve Rotheram]

The Minister has mentioned our questions about a lead investigator. According to paragraph 9 on page 3 of the Home Affairs Select Committee report that was published today, the Committee is recommending

“that a single, lead investigator should be identified”.

How much consideration will he give to that report?

[Damian Green]

As I have said, I can see where the demand is coming from, and I have read the Home Affairs Select Committee report. There are, however, very good reasons for what I have said about this, which I am sure hon. Members will understand. Given the constitutional independence of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the IPCC, there could not be any attempt to direct them, especially the DPP. It would be improper in all senses for a chief investigator, let alone a Home Office Minister, to direct him and tell him what to do. It would certainly be constitutionally improper as well, so there are genuine difficulties involved in going down that route. I assume that the underlying drive behind the request for such an investigator is the need to ensure that people do not go off in different directions or fail to talk to each other, thereby causing unnecessary delay through a lack of coherence among the various strands that hon. Members have talked about. Everyone involved is aware of that; I know they are doing their best to make sure that they proceed as much as possible in parallel.

The right hon. Member for Delyn asked me about engagement with the Police Superintendents Association and the Police Federation. As I said in response to an earlier intervention, I have already had an exchange of correspondence with both bodies; indeed, my officials spoke to them before the Bill was published. I believe the right hon. Gentleman said at one stage that we should have consulted formally, but that would have taken 10 or 12 weeks, so it would clearly have been impossible. Inevitably, there has not been a lot of time between getting the Bill right and publishing it. Of necessity, then, the consultation with the bodies was done relatively shortly before we proceeded. I sensed the House’s pressure to get on with this, and that is what we are doing.