Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Let me begin by thanking the Minister for the discussions in which he has engaged outside the Chamber with Opposition Front Benchers, namely my right hon. Friends the Members for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) and for Leigh (Andy Burnham), and me. We have greatly appreciated those discussions, and, like the Minister and, I am sure, many other Members, we welcome the Bill.

The events at Hillsborough 23 years ago were a tragedy of monumental proportions. The lack of justice for the families and friends of the 96 victims sits heavily on all Members of this place, and indeed on the great city of Liverpool, which I am proud to say is the city of my birth. Constituents of mine died at Hillsborough. I know of the problems that the families have experienced since then, and the pain that it has brought them. The campaign for justice has been long fought, over many years. I recall our debate early in 1998, to which many Members who are in the Chamber today contributed. We recognise and pay tribute to the campaign for justice and for the families, and today we will help it to proceed to a conclusion.

Let me again place on record my sincere thanks to the Right Rev. James Jones and the Hillsborough panel, who have done such important work to enable us, by means of the Bill and other measures, to right some of the many wrongs that have been perpetrated over those 23 years. I pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh for leading that process in government, and for not abandoning it in opposition. I think it is telling that every Member representing the city of Liverpool was present for the Minister’s speech today, and that so many Members on both sides of the House representing the north-west and, indeed, other parts of the United Kingdom are present for the debate.

[Stephen Mosley]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the cross-party nature of what has happened since 2010, when the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) took action to enable the independent panel to sit, has shown the House operating at its absolute best, and that more has been achieved for the victims of Hillsborough since then than was achieved in the preceding 20-odd years?

[Mr Hanson]

I hope it can be said that death does not bear a party banner, and that the tragedies faced by many of my constituents and those of other Members throughout the House have led us to take action that will achieve the justice that they seek, the justice that they want, and the justice for which they have fought in the face of the lies that have been perpetuated in the community around them for so many years.

We should recognise that the Bill is one step—albeit a small step—towards our achieving justice for the 96 families, their friends, their relatives, and the many people who were injured on that day; but we should also recognise that that journey towards justice is far from over. As we have heard today, the Attorney-General is considering whether there should be a fresh inquest. We certainly want to see the verdicts of the original inquest crushed, and we want the Director of Public Prosecutions to review as a matter of urgency evidence relating to the important matters that occurred that day. The Independent Police Complaints Commission is, of course, already looking into the conduct of police officers.

The Bill is part of the process of securing justice for the relatives, friends and families, but it is only part of that process. Justice will not be achieved until all the matters to which I have referred have been dealt with to the satisfaction of the families, in line with the Hillsborough panel’s recommendations.

Based on the report, the IPCC wants to look into two potential criminal and misconduct issues. First, it wants to examine the conduct of the police on 15 April 1989, addressing the culpability of the individuals and organisations involved and the safety standards, planning and operational decisions of that day that led to the Hillsborough disaster. Secondly, an equally important, but perhaps even worse, series of incidents is being examined: the evidence suggesting a cover-up in the weeks, months and years after the disaster. Of the 164 statements taken by officers on that day, no fewer than 116 were changed in some way, shape or form. That is deceit on a huge scale and we need to get to the bottom of it for the sake not only of the integrity of the police, but of justice for the 96.

I thank the Home Secretary for having listened to the concerns expressed by the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford about the powers available to the IPCC. It must have the tools it needs to carry out a thorough investigation into both allegations of criminality and misconduct and the events of the day. The families who have campaigned for that—as well as for the inquest, for the quashing of the verdicts and for the Director of Public Prosecutions to review the evidence—demand no less.

My right hon. Friend called in October for the inquiry to have those powers, because she recognises that it must get to the bottom of why so many police statements were altered. Although the IPCC can pursue officers it believes to have committed crimes, it does not at present have powers to compel serving or former officers to be interviewed as witnesses; nor can it compel civilians to give evidence. Those obstacles must be removed, and the Bill achieves that. What consultations did the Minister have with the families prior to the publication of the Bill, and does he intend to have further discussions with representatives of the families in the next few weeks?

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) has said, the Home Affairs Committee welcomes the Bill. It has also made some helpful comments, and I hope the Minister will reflect on them. It is clear that the IPCC does not have the powers it needs to meet the objectives it has set itself. Indeed, it has informed the Home Affairs Committee that

“where police officers refuse to attend for interview, IPCC investigators can only seek the information they need through the submission of written questions to officers via their solicitors or other representatives. Not only can this seriously undermine public confidence in IPCC investigations, it can also impact on the overall effectiveness and timeliness of investigations.”

Clause 1 will remedy that, and I welcome it.

There is a separate issue. My right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary has rightly asked Lord Stevens to address in his independent review for our party whether there should be a new police standards body and to look at the role of the IPCC going forward. That is a debate for another day, but as the Minister has recognised, in the longer term we will need to put in place a strong body to provide the safeguards and standards required to hold the police to account. That will take time, however, and the friends and families of the victims and the communities of Merseyside, Liverpool, my area of north Wales and beyond demand that we have early action. That is why this Bill is before us today.

[Steve Rotheram]

On the need for urgency, does my right hon. Friend agree that the Bill does not inhibit our ability to establish a lead investigator to oversee the myriad current investigations, and that that might help Parliament to understand the need for urgency?

[Mr Hanson]

I am very much on the side of my hon. Friend, and I again want to pay tribute to him and to the impact he has made on these matters since his election in May 2010. He knows the community where he lives and which he represents. He knows that they want to see those matters dealt with urgently, as do all hon. Members; those of us who have bereaved relatives in our constituencies know what that means to them and how they want to see the main important matters that my hon. Friend has brought forward addressed.

Clause 1 will amend the Police Reform Act 2002 to confer witness attendance powers on the Independent Police Complaints Commission. The way in which that will be done is set out in newly published regulations from the Minister, which will adopt a similar approach to that set out in the 2002 Act. Clause 2, on the application of part 2 of the 2002 Act, will deal with questions that the Minister has also mentioned. It will amend the legislation currently preventing the IPCC from investigating any matters previously considered by the Police Complaints Authority. Given that these issues occurred under the PCA’s jurisdiction, it is vital that that bit of the Bill is also put in place.

Later on we will deal with an amendment, but it is important to refer now to the issue at the heart of it. I have pressed the Minister strongly, as have my right hon. Friends the Members for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford and for Leigh, on the issue of the sanctions in place should an officer fail to attend an interview. Such an officer would indeed be subject to misconduct proceedings, and the Minister has explained to me privately, and has explained to the House today, how he believes those will deal with that issue. I simply say to him that we will be maintaining a strong watching brief, because we may need to revisit the sanctions issue either in Committee or at a later date.

The amendment tabled by the all-party group on the Hillsborough disaster, so ably chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), raises that issue. We will have the debate when we deal with the amendment, but it is important that those who refuse to address the needs of the IPCC—if there are such people, and there may not be—face some sanction. The Minister has made it clear to me that that will involve police misconduct proceedings, which could involve dismissal, loss of pension or other issues. The key question is this: is the sanction sufficient? We will test that at a later date.

Discussions also have progressed with my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary and myself on the IPCC’s inability to compel retired officers to attend interviews. The Minister has agreed to look at this matter. He has given an explanation again as to why retired officers should not be eligible to be brought for interview; this was because of the difficulties of legislation and other related matters. In a letter that he sent the shadow Home Secretary on 22 November, which was copied to me, he said:

“As I set out on Monday, we understand the calls to grant a power to compel retired officers to attend interviews, and” —

this is important—

“will consider these in slower time, but do not feel it is appropriate to grant such a wide-ranging power through fast track legislation.”

Will the Minister indicate during this debate what exactly he means by “slower time”? I would like to know with whom he is discussing these issues, when he intends to report back to the House on them, and whether he will explore the issues that we have discussed in respect of human rights legislation and pension confiscation. Will he report back to the House after this fast-track legislation on those matters?

A commitment made by the Minister today—even now, dare I say it—from across the Dispatch Box to report back to this House on those matters would be of great interest. It would be very much welcomed by Members of this House, who are concerned that officers involved in incidents at Hillsborough who have retired will not be subject to criminal proceedings because they are not involved in criminal activity but could give information that is beneficial to a range of other matters relating to the Hillsborough inquiry. I want to know from the Minister, now or later, what he means by “slower time”, because it is important. I would welcome reassurance that those powers are available and will be considered. I will not push him further than that today, but we will revisit the question in due course.

I would also like the Minister to confirm my understanding of the situation with the IPCC’s oversight as it extends to private contractors that provide services to or on behalf of the police. The legislation is put in place for Hillsborough, but also for other events, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) mentioned, and for all time until it is changed by future legislation. Will the Minister confirm that police community support officers and those individuals who undertake private contracting for the police force will come under the auspices of the Bill? I know the answer to that question, but I want the Minister to put it on the record in the Chamber before the Bill is passed.

I welcome the fact that the IPCC has suggested that it will be in a position to take witnesses early in the next year. All Members of this House who are involved, both those who represent the city of Sheffield—I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) in her place—and those who represent constituencies in the north-west would welcome an early conclusion. The Minister has been keen to say that the investigation will be independent, but I would welcome some indication of the time scale within which, once the Bill has been approved, he would expect the IPCC to conclude its consideration of these matters. If he cannot do that today and wants to give it further consideration outside the Chamber, I would welcome it if he could drop a note to Members who speak on the subject on Second Reading. An indication from the IPCC of its intended time scale would certainly be welcome.

I genuinely support the Minister’s Bill, but I would also welcome his comments on correspondence that I have received in the last 24 to 36 hours from bodies representing the police that have considered the Bill post-publication. It worries me, so I ask the Minister to give some consideration to the points it raises. First, I have a letter from the Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales addressed to my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary and copied to me. It is from Chief Superintendent Derek Barnett, the president of the association, and the very first line states:

“It is disappointing that the only notification…of this legislation was a telephone call from an official the day before the Bill was tabled.”

He goes on to say that he shares

“your commitment to ensuring that the Hillsborough case is fully and properly investigated in a manner that is both expeditious and thorough, and with the eventual outcome that the full circumstances of those terrible events are once and for all indentified and that justice can be seen to have been done.”

The police superintendents support elements of the Bill, but I am slightly surprised that they were not consulted about it as a whole apart from by telephone on the day before it was tabled. Between now and the Bill’s consideration in the other place, will the Minister meet the superintendents or contact them and listen to the points they want to make? I support the Bill as it is, but the superintendents want to make some points about it and the lack of consultation is concerning. They will have a role to play on these matters in future and the Minister might find that they support him.

I also have a similar letter from the Police Federation. It is from the deputy general secretary, Stephen Smith, who states on page 2:

“I have to say that I am personally disappointed by the action taken in issuing the Bill, rather than consulting with the sub-committee in the first instance. I believe this course of action demeans the very important work that has been carried out over the last 7 years.”

The sub-committee to which he refers is the Police Advisory Board for England and Wales sub-committee, which is a negotiating body on these matters.

Whatever our view on a range of incidents, the police have an important say on this matter, and the fact that they have not been formally consulted is an oversight. Between now and Second Reading in another place, if the Bill progresses today, as I expect it to do, will the Minister make contact with the Police Federation to give the police an opportunity to have their say?

My final point relates to the scope of the Bill. The Minister knows that he is the Policing Minister for England and Wales, and that potentially, as we discussed outside the Chamber, police officers who in 1989 worked for a force in England and Wales may now work for a force in Scotland or Northern Ireland, outside the Minister’s jurisdiction. We raised the matter in our informal discussions and I do not believe I have had a response from the Minister, unless I missed it. I would welcome an update on the progress that he has had with the devolved Administrations in Northern Ireland and Scotland on ensuring that the terms of the Bill would not encounter any difficulties from those Administrations. They are different Administrations and have different police forces. If somebody is now employed by the Police Service of Northern Ireland or the Scottish police force, that could present difficulties. I would like to see the matter resolved. The Minister has said outside the Chamber that he has discussed it and is coming to a conclusion on it.

I welcome support for the Bill from Liberty, the human rights group, which believes that this is the right course of action. There is cross-community support for the Bill and I wish it fair passage. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) referred in an intervention to the petition organised by Anne Williams. Perhaps the Minister winding up the debate can give us an update. As we know, Anne Williams has a very difficult and challenging illness and wishes to ensure that her concerns about her family’s loss are resolved before her illness reaches a sad conclusion, as she expects it to do. We should consider an early opportunity to discuss that petition again in the House. May I press the Minister for an early answer from the Department on the earliest possible inquest into the family of Anne Williams?

The Bill has widespread support. There are some issues which I have raised with the Minister today that we want to see explored in detail, but I know as somebody who represents families who lost relatives at Hillsborough, I know from being born and growing up in Liverpool the community that I represent, I know from my support for that football team for my entire life, and I know from the contributions, work and efforts of my right hon. and hon. Friends from across the region and across my area of north Wales that the events of Hillsborough in 1989 caused such challenge, tragedy and concern that we now want justice for the families of those 96 victims and others who were injured.

Through their effort, passion and commitment the families have brought the case to the stage that we are at today, where an inquest is potentially pending, verdicts can be quashed and the Director of Public Prosecutions is going to act on the matter. The Bill gives an opportunity for the Independent Police Complaints Commission to provide answers and take real action on the concerns that have existed for many years. I welcome the Second Reading of the Bill. We will return to issues in due course in Committee, but the Opposition support the Bill here and in another place and look forward to the day when the IPCC’s investigation leads to satisfaction, truth and justice for the families of those who were lost in Sheffield on that day in 1989.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I am pleased to be able take part in this debate, albeit briefly, because the events of that awful day took place in the city that I represent, and I was the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough before the election.

I welcome the Bill, and not just because it makes the IPCC’s work so much easier—the investigation into what really happened at Hillsborough, and, in the course of establishing the truth, holding to account those who were responsible. I heard what the Minister said about the bar for the use of the powers in the IPCC’s future investigations, but I believe that incidents such as Orgreave will reach the standards that that bar requires, and that the Bill will be applied to them.

I pay tribute to the shadow Home Secretary and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) for their work, and to the Minister. The non-partisan manner in which the matter has been handled is a tribute to the House’s response to Hillsborough and to the Hillsborough independent panel’s report. It has been to Parliament’s credit. We need to continue in that spirit.

I sympathise with the shadow Minister’s views on the need to consider how we can enable the IPCC to require retired police officers to co-operate with the investigation. That is a critical point. If we are trying to make it possible for the IPCC to conduct a thorough and definitive investigation into what happened at Hillsborough, it is vital that no stone is left unturned, to use a cliché. Not to be able to interview retired members of the force would leave a massive hole in the IPCC’s investigations. Somehow, that loophole—that weakness—in the IPCC’s powers needs to be resolved before it completes its investigations.

In the debate in response to the Hillsborough panel’s report, I spoke about the need for the House to recognise that policing in South Yorkshire has changed since 1989. I reiterate that today. Policing has clearly moved on from where it was 23 years ago, not only in South Yorkshire but throughout the country. Nevertheless, that does not mean that things are perfect. The provisions in the Bill are part of the evidence that policing in this country is moving forward. The fact that we are at the point where we are saying that serving police officers and, we hope, retired officers can be required to give evidence to the IPCC is a clear tribute to the progress that we are slowly making towards a position in which policing is as transparent as possible. Only when we get to that position can we truly say that people will once again trust policing in this country.

[Mr Hanson]

Perhaps the Minister can respond in his winding-up speech to one point I should have made in my contribution but did not. What happens if an officer is under investigation under the powers in the Bill, and subsequently, during the course of the investigation, determines to retire? Perhaps the Minister could clarify on the record what happens in those circumstances.

[Angela Smith]

I concur with my right hon. Friend that that is one of the key questions we need to discuss in Committee. This is not only about retired officers and serving officers, but about those who do not want, through misguided loyalty, to incriminate people with whom they have worked over the years, and who might be tempted to retire, because they are on the point of retirement, to avoid having to give evidence.

The numbers who will try to do that will be relatively small. I am absolutely confident that the vast majority of South Yorkshire officers, both retired and serving, will be keen for the truth on Hillsborough to be established. Most will be keen to co-operate with the IPCC inquiry. Some of those who were there on the day have been to see me about Hillsborough. It is clear that they want to put on the record their role on the day and the fact that they did nothing wrong. It is in the interests of all those who were serving in the force at that time and who were involved in the events of that day that they are are given the opportunity to put on the record their memories of what happened. That is why the vast majority of officers will be keen to co-operate. The establishment of the whole truth is the only way in which this issue will be resolved once and for all. As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) said, truth, justice and accountability are the only way forward.

The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) mentioned the possibility of witnesses refusing to co-operate. I know the South Yorkshire force and its leadership reasonably well. Hon. Members can only place our trust in the ability of that leadership to ensure that the clear message goes out to serving and retired officers that full co-operation with the work of the IPCC is required. We have a golden opportunity to lay this issue to rest once and for all. Achieving that goal—once and for all resolving the disaster of April 1989—is primarily in the interests of the families of the bereaved, but it is also in the interests of South Yorkshire police and the people of Sheffield, who have lived with the disaster daily.

It is incumbent on all of us to remember that the provisions in the Bill apply not only to the actions of South Yorkshire police on the day and West Midlands police. We know from the IPCC that other police forces are almost certainly involved. If Orgreave is investigated using the powers in the Bill, the provisions will apply to a number of police forces. In the interests of accountability, transparency and the future of policing in this country, but more than anything in the interests of the families of the 96, the Bill should be given a clear passage through the Commons and speedily taken through the Lords, so that we can get it on to the statute book and the IPCC can get on with its work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

As I have said, I can see where the demand is coming from, and I have read the Home Affairs Select Committee report. There are, however, very good reasons for what I have said about this, which I am sure hon. Members will understand. Given the constitutional independence of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the IPCC, there could not be any attempt to direct them, especially the DPP. It would be improper in all senses for a chief investigator, let alone a Home Office Minister, to direct him and tell him what to do. It would certainly be constitutionally improper as well, so there are genuine difficulties involved in going down that route. I assume that the underlying drive behind the request for such an investigator is the need to ensure that people do not go off in different directions or fail to talk to each other, thereby causing unnecessary delay through a lack of coherence among the various strands that hon. Members have talked about. Everyone involved is aware of that; I know they are doing their best to make sure that they proceed as much as possible in parallel.

The right hon. Member for Delyn asked me about engagement with the Police Superintendents Association and the Police Federation. As I said in response to an earlier intervention, I have already had an exchange of correspondence with both bodies; indeed, my officials spoke to them before the Bill was published. I believe the right hon. Gentleman said at one stage that we should have consulted formally, but that would have taken 10 or 12 weeks, so it would clearly have been impossible. Inevitably, there has not been a lot of time between getting the Bill right and publishing it. Of necessity, then, the consultation with the bodies was done relatively shortly before we proceeded. I sensed the House’s pressure to get on with this, and that is what we are doing.

[Mr Hanson]

In view of the written comments that I explained, will the Minister agree to meet, prior to Second Reading in the other place, representatives of both the Police Federation and the Police Superintendents Association to discuss the Bill?

[Damian Green]

I already have in my diary a meeting with the Police Federation next week, and I would be happy to meet the Police Superintendents Association at any time.

There has been a lot of discussion about retired officers—not least by the shadow policing Minister, but also by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), the hon. Members for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) and the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson). As I have said, former officers are civilians—not police officers—and they are no longer bound by the duties and regulations that governed their lives as serving officers. The police themselves do not have powers to compel witnesses to attend interviews, so I can only repeat that to grant this power to the IPCC would be unusual in the extreme. However, given the seriousness of the allegations being considered by the IPCC in the Hillsborough case, I repeat that the IPCC has made it clear that it will fully conclude investigations for both criminality and misconduct even when officers have left the service.

This is an unusual step. The IPCC does not normally investigate retired officers for misconduct, but it is clear in this case that there is an enormous and legitimate public demand, reflected by Members of all parties, for that to happen. That is what the IPCC was going to do. During its investigation, the IPPC will no doubt call retired officers to provide evidence. As we all agree, the retired officers will understand the importance of this investigation, and I am sure that the vast majority, if not all of them, will attend willingly.

Finally, the IPCC has been clear that it needs these powers only in respect of serving officers. That is what the Bill provides for. I understand the calls to grant a power to compel retired officers to give evidence, but because it is so unusual and because it would be such a powerful tool, I think it would be inappropriate to do this through fast-track legislation. That should be considered when it comes to the possibility of future legislation.