Employment Rights Bill (Twentieth sitting)

Steve Darling Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Bedford]

Thank you, Ms Vaz. Who would be there to care for them if something terrible were to happen? Most importantly, for my constituents, who is there to stop these prisoners getting out of the prison grounds? We could have a situation whereby, within a short journey of Mid Leicestershire, hundreds of inmates are on the run. Furthermore, with the funding settlement that the Government have announced for rural areas such as Mid Leicestershire, it is questionable whether the police would be able to catch those who have escaped.

It appears that my opinion is not unique. YouGov has been polling the UK public on the matter since August 2019, when 52% of the public thought that prison guards should not be able to strike. Incredibly, even through tough times, that figure has increased to 54%.

I believe that the public would be particularly sceptical about new clauses 2 and 3 because of the riots that they have seen on prison grounds, which unfortunately have happened even when prison officers have been on the premises. For example, many remember the riots at Strangeways in 1990, which were caused by poor officer-prisoner relations and poor conditions on prison grounds.

I am also concerned about the two-tier impact on police and prison officers. The policing profession is intrinsically linked to that of prison officers. Police officers are at the heart of keeping the public safe. Police officers throughout the UK join the profession willingly and, because of their professionalism, accept that they will never be able to strike. Police officers throughout the UK know how important it is to keep the public safe. In fact, many police officers I talk to express their annoyance at how little they can do to fight real crime when a lot of their time is taken up by other issues, such as non-crime hate incidents and investigating dubious posts on social media.

However, the crux of the argument against new clauses 2 and 3 is public safety and the lack of supervision should they be accepted. I therefore hope that they are not added to the Bill.

[Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)]

I am sure that my residents would be horrified that these proposals are seeing the light of day in the Committee. I am shocked that Conservative Members are putting them out there. I expected us just to pass on by them, but I want to make sure that it is on the record that the Liberal Democrats do not support these rather peculiar proposals, which have only seen the light of day thanks to a Conservative Member.

[Justin Madders]

There are approximately 170,000 words in the “Oxford English Dictionary”, but I am struggling to find one to adequately encapsulate the speech by the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire. It is clearly a novel approach to a Bill Committee to move an amendment and then speak against it. I do not think anything he said would have persuaded me the other way had I not already been minded to oppose the new clauses, although he did his best.

It is important that we put on the record our appreciation for the work of prison officers. They work in difficult environments every day, dealing with very challenging people, and we recognise that they are critical to keeping the public safe. Under the current legislation, prison officers are prevented from taking industrial action, and their pay is governed by the independent Prison Service Pay Review Body, which acts as a compensatory mechanism for that restriction. Indeed, one of the first actions of this Government was to accept the pay review body recommendations for 2024-25, and we delivered on our commitment to launch the 2025-26 pay review body process in September, three months earlier than the previous Government did. Our written evidence to the body for the next pay round was published on 10 December, paving the way for a timely pay round. We are well positioned for that process to conclude. We need to ensure that everyone who works in a prison has the right to decent conditions and a fair reward for their hard work. The Government are committed to achieving that, but I believe that we can do so without the need for legislative change.

Prison officers are essential to maintaining order and control in prisons. A withdrawal of their services, as we have heard, even if only partial, would create a risk to order and to the life and limb of individuals. There are limited contingency plans in place to deal with strike action and, during such incidents, reliance on a narrow pool of operational managers and support from the police would create risks. I am sure that Members do not need that spelling out. This would also result in significant disruption to the operation of the courts and the police, representing a significant risk to public safety.

I know that the POA is very keen, understandably, to have this proposal enacted. Its representatives have met the Justice Secretary recently, and they continue to do so, and I have spoken to them. I understand their view, but we cannot agree to this at this point. I do not know whether the amendment will be pushed to a vote—I suspect that it will not be, from what the hon. Member for Mid Leicestershire said—but we will not support it.

[Mr Bedford]

Held by my arguments and the arguments put forward by hon. Members, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 4

Non-disclosure agreements: harassment

“(1) Any provision in an agreement to which this section applies is void insofar as it purports to preclude the worker from making a relevant disclosure.

(2) This section applies to any agreement between a worker and the worker’s employer (whether a worker’s contractor not), including any proceedings for breach of contract.

(3) In this section, a ‘relevant disclosure’ means any disclosure of information which, in the reasonable belief of the worker making the disclosure, shows that harassment has been committed, is being committed or is likely to be committed, by a fellow worker or a client of the employer.

(4) In this section, ‘harassment’ means any act of harassment as defined by section 26 of the Equality Act 2010.”—(Steve Darling.)

This new clause would render void any non-disclosure agreement insofar as it prevents the worker from making a disclosure about harassment (including sexual harassment).

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Steve Darling]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 4, in clause 118, page 104, line 32, at end insert—

“(aa) section [Non-disclosure agreements: harassment];”

This is a consequential amendment to NC4, to ensure its implementation.

[Steve Darling]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. When I became an MP, I never thought that I would be standing before a Committee talking about clause 4. However, this is not about public ownership but is actually about non-disclosure agreements. Non-disclosure agreements were originally about keeping trade secrets but, over recent years, they have proliferated and, sadly, have kept shameful secrets away from the public eye in situations where light needs to be cast to make sure that things are tackled. Sadly, I personally have been signed up to one of these agreements. I reassure the Committee that it was not a business in my constituency, but another one where I suffered a level of discrimination, and I had to sign an NDA. That did not allow me to cry foul on a certain issue that myself and my family suffered.

As for the bigger picture of where NDAs have been used at an industrial level, one only has to look at Harrods and the stories that have come up around sexual harassment. Part of the Bill is about trying to tackle harassment and sexual harassment. New clause 4 strengthens the Bill by making sure that NDAs are exempt from this area. As I alluded to with Mohamed al-Fayed, these were used at an industrial level when people were at a very confused stage, and were very vulnerable. I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to incorporating the new clause in our proposals.

This is a golden opportunity. We have already seen Ireland take this step. I encourage the Minister to embrace new clause 4.

[Greg Smith]

I shall speak briefly to new clause 4, tabled by the Liberal Democrats. Of course, His Majesty’s loyal Opposition support all practical measures to combat harassment and sexual harassment wherever it occurs. Our challenge to the proposal put forward by the hon. Member for Torbay on behalf of the third party is about understanding where the shortfalls are in existing whistleblower legislation that make the amendment necessary. I heard what he said about his personal experience, but our analysis of the provisions of legislation that is active and live now, as we consider the new clause in Committee, shows that whistleblowing legislation already covers what he is trying to achieve. We are not certain why it is necessary, on a practical level, to add the new clause to the Bill.

[Justin Madders]

First, I thank the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for moving the new clause. This is his clause 4 moment—the road to socialism is often a long one, but I am glad to see he is taking steps towards it. He raises an important topic on behalf of the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran); indeed, a number of Members of the House have discussed it with me over a period of time, because the use of non-disclosure agreements presents challenges.

As has been said, NDAs can be used quite legitimately in different contexts and contracts. As the responsible Department for the use of NDAs in employment relationships, we recognise that they can have a legitimate role, such as to protect trade secrets, intellectual property and commercially sensitive information. Of course their most common use is in allowing workers and employers to reach a settlement on a dispute or a claim. It goes without saying that a worker may want to settle a dispute and receive the confidentiality protections associated with a settlement agreement to avoid going through an employment tribunal, which can be a distressing experience in itself. Having a non-disclosure agreement can also increase the value of such an agreement, depending how negotiations go.

There are existing legal limits to the use of NDAs in the employment context. For example, any clauses of an NDA that sought to stop a worker blowing the whistle to a lawyer or a prescribed person under the legislation would not be enforceable. The use of an NDA by an employer may amount to a criminal offence if it is an attempt by the employer to pervert the course of justice or conceal a criminal offence. A settlement agreement under the Employment Rights Act 1996 and any confidentiality clauses it contains is void if the worker did not receive independent advice on the terms and effect of the agreement. Speaking as one who has given such advice on countless occasions, I can assure the Committee that this a matter the legal profession takes very seriously. None the less, workers may not be aware of their rights.

Both the Equality and Human Rights Commission and ACAS have published guidance on NDAs, but reports continue of improper use of NDAs, as the hon. Member for Torbay mentioned, particularly in relation to sexual harassment, discrimination and bullying in the workplace. Last year, the Women and Equalities Committee inquiry into misogyny in music and the Treasury Committee inquiry into sexism in the City reported on the misuse of NDAs in specific sectors and industries. Their reports highlighted how NDAs can have a silencing effect on some victims, who come under pressure to sign an NDA and are not aware of their existing rights, and how NDAs may be a part of wider organisational cultures and practices for some employers. We have heard a clear example of that today. The Solicitors Regulation Authority and the Legal Services Board have also recently conducted a call for evidence and a thematic review into the use of NDAs among the legal profession. Overall, those reports highlight that, while we have seen some progress and some positive developments, the issues in this space are multiple and persistent. The Government are live to the concerns about the misuse of NDAs to intimidate and silence victims of crime and other types of misconduct, particularly harassment, discrimination, and bullying.

The Victims and Prisoners Act 2024 contains a measure that, when commenced, will ensure that victims can report a crime, co-operate with regulators and access confidential advice and support without fear of legal action. It does so by providing that any clauses in NDAs seeking to prevent those actions cannot legally be enforced. The Ministry of Justice is carefully considering plans to bring the relevant section of that Act into force and will be working closely with the victim support and business sectors to ensure that the new measure is implemented and deployed effectively. We continue to listen carefully to representations on further action needed to curb the misuse of NDAs.

The specific wording that is proposed today would make any provision in an agreement precluding a worker from making a relevant disclosure that relates to harassment carried out by a fellow worker, or client of their employer, unenforceable. Under the consequential amendment, the measure would come into force on the day that this legislation is passed. I have some reservations about the amendment as drafted, as it would make a significant change from the current position and there might be unintended consequences.

To render provisions related to disclosures on harassment unenforceable could have negative effects on both workers and employers. A worker may want to settle a dispute over harassment and receive the confidentiality protections associated with a settlement agreement. The proposal may also impact on their ability to reach a settlement and avoid going to an employment tribunal, or may indeed reduce the value of such an agreement. The amendment may also lead to uncertainty for both employers and workers who have entered into NDAs previously.

The Government are looking into this. There is obviously some evidence, and there was a Government consultation, but that was some time ago, so we intend to look more closely at what we can do in this area. I have met some of the interested parties and there are other proposals to deal with this issue that might be slightly more workable than those in the new clause proposed by the Liberal Democrat spokesperson. I say to him that although we are aware of this issue and know it needs attention, we are not able to support the new clause.

[Steve Darling]

I welcome the Minister’s reassurances and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 12

Substitution Clauses

“(1) Any agreement, whether a contract or otherwise, between—

(a) an employer or a contractor of services, and

(b) an employee, worker or dependent contractor

must not include provision for the employee, worker or dependent contractor to appoint a substitute to supply services or undertake work on their behalf.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1)(a), “contractor of services” means an organisation that—

(a) enters into an agreement, whether a contract or otherwise, with a supplier or dependent contractor to supply services,

(b) does not require the supplier or dependent contractor to supply services, and

(c) pays the supplier or dependent contractor according to tasks performed rather than hours of work.

(3) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b), "dependent contractor" means an individual who—

(a) is appointed to perform work or services for an employer or contractor of services,

(b) is paid according to tasks performed rather than hours of work,

(c) depends partially or primarily on the employer or contractor of services for employment and income,

(d) is not required to perform services for the employer or contractor of services, and

(e) is not specified as an employee or worker within a statement of employment particulars or a contract of employment.”—(Nick Timothy.)

This new clause would prohibit the use of “substitution clauses”, which allow companies to permit their suppliers – including some delivery couriers – to appoint a substitute to supply services on their behalf.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Nick Timothy (West Suffolk) (Con)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Timothy]

I thank the Minister for his constructive reply. If he is willing to have further conversations with me about what solutions we might be able to bring to bear on this problem, I will be happy to withdraw the new clause now. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 13

Rates of statutory maternity pay, etc

“(1) In regulation 6 of the Statutory Maternity Pay (General) Regulations 1986 (prescribed rate of statutory maternity pay) for ‘£184.03’ substitute ‘£368.06’.

(2) In the Statutory Paternity Pay and Statutory Adoption Pay (Weekly Rates) Regulations 2002—

(a) in regulation 2(a) (weekly rate of payment of statutory paternity pay) for ‘£184.03’ substitute ‘£368.06’; and

(b) in regulation 3(a) (weekly rate of payment of statutory adoption pay) for ‘£184.03’ substitute ‘£368.06’.

(3) In regulation 40(1)(a) of the Statutory Shared Parental Pay (General) Regulations 2014 (weekly rate of payment of statutory shared parental pay) for ‘£184.03’ substitute ‘£368.06’.

(4) In regulation 20(1)(a) of the Statutory Parental Bereavement Pay (General) Regulations 2020 (weekly rate of payment) for ‘£184.03’ substitute ‘£368.06’.”—(Steve Darling.)

This new clause sets out rates of Statutory Maternity Pay, Statutory Paternity Pay, Statutory Adoption Pay, Statutory Shared Parental Pay and Statutory Parental Bereavement Pay.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Steve Darling]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) for assisting in tabling the new clause, which is about ensuring that we put the family at the heart of our society by doubling the rates of maternity, paternity, adoption, shared paternity and parental bereavement pay, which are really important when people are on leave. Sadly, a lot of men choose not to take up these opportunities. We will discuss later our proposals on kinship care and fostering, and this is all part of that bigger picture. By supporting families with these four proposals in the three key areas that they cover, we are putting family at the heart of our world. One only has to reflect on social care and children’s social care, and the significant cost where there is family breakdown, to see that the more the state can do to support families, the better.

I would like to move on to kinship care, where there are real opportunities. I know that the all-party parliamentary group on kinship care has discussed these measures and sees this as a real opportunity for the Government to move positively to support kinship carers.

[The Chair]

Order. Can I just interrupt the hon. Gentleman? That is the next new clause. We are on rates of statutory maternity pay, etc.

[Steve Darling]

That is fine. As I said, the new clause is about supporting the family, and I hope the Minister will give serious consideration to our proposals. Apologies for misunderstanding, Ms Vaz.

[The Chair]

That is fine—don’t worry.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Equalities (Dame Nia Griffith)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Vaz. I thank the hon. Member for Torbay for introducing the new clause, and for his absolute sincerity in wanting to support families.

The Government are committed to ensuring that employed parents receive the best level of support to balance their work and family lives. Our plan to make work pay will ensure that employees are supported to work while balancing their essential family responsibilities. We understand that parental leave and pay entitlements are a key part of that, and that is why the Bill will already make changes to parental leave.

The new clause would double the existing rate of statutory parental payments from £184.03 to £368.06. When considering calls to increase the level of parental pay generally, we need to consider the impact on limited resources and the burden on employers. Changes to parental pay would require careful consideration alongside tax reform and consideration in the wider context of benefits and employment rights over the longer term, and they would need to be made in consultation with businesses and stakeholders.

The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is required by law to undertake an annual review of benefits and state pensions, including statutory payments. That is based on a review of trends in prices and earnings growth in the preceding year. Parental payments are generally increased in line with the consumer prices index. For example, in April, all statutory parental pay provisions, including statutory maternity pay, statutory paternity pay and statutory adoption pay, were increased by 6.7%. That is in line with other benefits.

It is worth noting that statutory parental pay is only one element of the support available to parents. Depending on individual circumstances, additional financial support, such as universal credit, child benefit and the Sure Start maternity grant—a lump sum payment of £500—may also be available. I therefore ask the hon. Member for Torbay to withdraw the motion.

[Steve Darling]

I will just share with colleagues that this measure was part of the commitments in the Liberal Democrats’ fully costed manifesto. I thank the Minister for their reassurances. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 14

Kinship care leave

“(1) The Employment Rights Act 1996 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 80EE insert—

‘Chapter 5

Kinship care leave

80EF Kinship care leave

(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations entitling an employee to be absent from work on leave under this section if the employee satisfies conditions specified in the regulations as to an eligible kinship care arrangement with a child.

(2) The regulations must include provision for determining—

(a) the extent of an employee’s entitlement to leave under this section in respect of a child;

(b) when leave under this section may be taken.

(3) Provision under subsection (2)(a) must secure that—

(a) where only one employee is entitled to leave under this section in respect of a given child, the employee is entitled to at least 52 weeks’ leave;

(b) where more than one employee is entitled to leave under this section in respect of the same child, those employees are entitled to share at least 52 weeks’ leave between them.

(4) An employee is entitled to leave under this section only if the eligible kinship care arrangement is intended to last—

(a) at least one year, and

(b) until the child being cared for attains the age of 18.

(5) For the purposes of this Chapter, ‘eligible kinship care arrangement’ means—

(a) special guardianship,

(b) a kinship child arrangement,

(c) a private fostering arrangement, or

(d) a private family arrangement,

within the meaning given by section (Meaning of ‘kinship care’) of the Employment Rights Act 2024.

(6) The regulations may make provision about how leave under this section is to be taken.

(7) In this section—

(a) “special guardianship”, “kinship child arrangement”, “private fostering arrangement” and “private family arrangement” have the same meanings as in section (Meaning of “kinship care”) of the Employment Rights Act 2024.

(b) “week” means any period of seven days.

80EG Rights during and after kinship care leave

(1) Regulations under section 80EF must provide—

(a) that an employee who is absent on leave under that section is entitled, for such purposes and to such extent as the regulations may prescribe, to the benefit of the terms and conditions of employment which would have applied but for the absence,

(b) that an employee who is absent on leave under that section is bound, for such purposes and to such extent as the regulations may prescribe, by obligations arising under those terms and conditions (except in so far as they are inconsistent with subsection (1) of that section), and

(c) that an employee who is absent on leave under that section is entitled to return from leave to a job of a kind prescribed by regulations, subject to section 80EH.

(2) The reference in subsection (1)(c) to absence on leave under section 80EF includes, where appropriate, a reference to a continuous period of absence attributable partly to leave under that section and partly to any one or more of the following—

(a) maternity leave,

(b) paternity leave,

(c) adoption leave,

(d) shared parental leave,

(e) parental leave,

(f) parental bereavement leave.

(3) In subsection (1)(a), “terms and conditions of employment”—

(a) includes matters connected with an employee’s employment whether or not they arise under the contract of employment, but

(b) does not include terms and conditions about remuneration.

(4) Regulations under section 80EF may specify matters which are, or are not, to be treated as remuneration for the purposes of this section.

(5) Regulations under section 80EF may make provision, in relation to the right to return mentioned in subsection (1)(c), about—

(a) seniority, pension rights and similar rights;

(b) terms and conditions of employment on return.

80EH Special cases

(1) Regulations under section 80EF may make provision about—

(a) redundancy during or after a period of leave under that section, or

(b) dismissal (other than by reason of redundancy) during a period of leave under that section.

(2) Provision by virtue of subsection (1) may include—

(a) provision requiring an employer to offer alternative employment;

(b) provision for the consequences of failure to comply with the regulations (which may include provision for a dismissal to be treated as unfair for the purposes of Part 10).

80EI Chapter 5: supplemental

(1) Regulations under section 80EF may—

(a) make provision about notices to be given, evidence to be produced and other procedures to be followed by employees and employers;

(b) make provision requiring employers or employees to keep records;

(c) make provision for the consequences of failure to give notices, to produce evidence, to keep records or to comply with other procedural requirements;

(d) make provision for the consequences of failure to act in accordance with a notice given by virtue of paragraph (a);

(e) make special provision for cases where an employee has a right which corresponds to a right under section 80EF and which arises under the person’s contract of employment or otherwise;

(f) make provision modifying the effect of Chapter 2 of Part 14 (calculation of a week’s pay) in relation to an employee who is or has been absent from work on leave under section 80EF;

(g) make provision applying, modifying or excluding an enactment, in such circumstances as may be specified and subject to any conditions which may be specified, in relation to a person entitled to take leave under section 80EF;

(h) make different provision for different cases or circumstances;

(i) make consequential provision.

(2) The cases or circumstances mentioned in subsection (1)(h) include—

(a) more than one child being subject to the same eligible kinship care arrangement, and

(b) a child being subject to an eligible kinship care arrangement on two or more separate occasions,

and regulations may, in particular, make special provision regarding the applicability and extent of the entitlement to leave in such circumstances.

(3) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision for some or all of a period of kinship care leave to be paid.’”—(Steve Darling.)

This new clause sets out an entitlement to kinship care leave.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Steve Darling]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 15—Meaning of “kinship care”—

“(1) This section defines ‘kinship care’ for the purposes of sections 80EF to 80EI of the Employment Rights Act 1996 (inserted by section (Kinship care leave) of this Act).

(2) Kinship care describes an arrangement where a child is raised by a friend, relative or extended family member other than a parent.

(3) Subsections (3) to (8) set out the arrangements that are recognised as being types of kinship care.

(4) An arrangement where a child is adopted (within the meaning of Chapter 4 of the Adoption and Children Act 2002) by a friend, relative or extended family member (‘kinship adoption’).

(5) An arrangement where—

(a) a child is looked after by a local authority (within the meaning of section 22 of the Children Act 1989), and

(b) a friend, relative or extended family member of that child is approved by the local authority to be a foster carer for that child (‘kinship foster care’).

(6) An arrangement created by a special guardianship order pursuant to section 14A of the Children Act 1989 (‘special guardianship’).

(7) An arrangement created by a child arrangements order pursuant to section 8 of the Children Act 1989 where the court orders that a child is to live predominantly with a friend, relative or extended family member of that child (‘kinship child arrangement’).

(8) An arrangement where a child is fostered privately (within the meaning of section 66 of the Children Act 1989) by a friend or extended family member (‘private fostering arrangement’).

(9) Any other arrangement where a child is cared for, and provided with accommodation in their own home—

(a) by a relative of the child, other than—

(i) a parent of the child; or

(ii) a person who is not a parent of the child but who has parental responsibility for the child; and

(b) where the arrangement has lasted, or is intended to last, for at least 28 days (‘private family arrangement’).”

This new clause is linked to the new clause about kinship care leave.

New clause 45—Foster carer’s leave—

“(1) The Employment Rights Act 1996 is amended as follows.

(2) In the title of Part 8B, for ‘CARER’S LEAVE’ substitute ‘CARER’S LEAVE AND FOSTER CARER’S LEAVE’.

(3) After section 80J (Carer’s leave) insert—

‘80JA Foster carer’s leave

(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations entitling an employee to be absent from work on leave under this section in order to undertake activities as a result of being a local authority foster parent.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), “local authority foster parent” is defined in accordance with section 105 of The Children’s Act 1989.

(3) The regulations must include provision for determining—

(a) the extent of an employee’s entitlement to leave under this section;

(b) when leave under this section may be taken.

(4) Provision under subsection (3)(a) must secure that where an employee is entitled to leave under this section the employee is entitled to at least a week’s leave during any period of 12 months.

(5) The regulations may make provision about how leave under this section is to be taken (including by providing for it to be taken non-continuously).

(6) The regulations may provide that particular activities are, or are not, to be treated as providing or arranging care for the purposes of this Part.’

(4) In section 80K—

(a) in subsection (1), after ‘80J’ insert ‘and 80JA’;

(b) in subsection (2), after ‘80J’ in both places it occurs insert ‘and 80JA’;

(c) in subsection (4), after ‘80J’ insert ‘and 80JA’; and

(d) in subsection (5), after ‘80J’ insert ‘and 80JA’.

(5) In subsection (1) of section 80L, after ‘80J’ insert ‘and 80JA’.

(6) In section 80M—

(a) In subsection (1)—

(i) in the opening words, after ‘80J’ insert ‘80JA’,

(ii) in paragraph (e), after ‘80J’ insert ‘and 80JA’

(iii) in paragraph (f), after ‘80J’ insert ‘and 80JA’

(iv) in paragraph (g), after ‘80J’ insert ‘and 80JA’

(v) in paragraph (h), after ‘80J’ insert ‘and 80JA;’

(b) In subsection (2), after ‘80J’ insert ‘and 80JA’; and

(c) In subsection (3), after ‘80J(4)’ insert ‘and 80JA(4)’.”

This new clause ensures local authority foster parents are entitled to at least one extra week’s leave every 12 months.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Darling]

Apologies, Ms Vaz; I was somewhat premature on the previous item. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham, who has highlighted this matter and proposed this new clause on kinship care. The kinship care APPG discussed this proposal and was mostly in favour of it.

The number of children in our United Kingdom who benefit from kinship care is 130,000—equivalent to the population of Colchester or Watford. That is three times more than the number of youngsters who benefit from fostering, which is where one imagines, and one would hope, most youngsters in need of support would get it. The new clause, by allowing additional leave, would allow greater flexibility to get those youngsters into the family, and would help families come to terms with, and settle into, kinship care.

There are eye-watering costs in the care system. Some companies are making outrageous profits from family breakdown. I encourage Members to think about how we can reshape society to give more support. As somebody who has adopted myself, adoption and fostering are matters very close to my heart, and I would strongly welcome more opportunities for kinship care.

Equally, new clause 45, which would provide for an additional week of unpaid leave for foster carers, is extremely important. We need to change the workplace so that it supports foster families and kinship care families, making sure that, the vast majority of the time, the best place for a child is within a loving family home—whatever shape or form that takes—rather than in a care home or similar place miles away from home.

This collection of proposals would help to drive the agenda to change our culture in the UK and support young people in loving homes, with families.

[Greg Smith]

I preface my comments by saying that I welcome anything that supports kinship carers. I had an inspirational meeting with a constituent who is a kinship carer over the summer, which certainly opened my eyes to many of the challenges faced by those who take on the heroic and wonderful mission in life of looking after those young people.

New clause 14 sets out an entitlement to kinship care leave. That in its own right seems to me a very good, sensible and noble proposal. Where the clause falls a little short is that it appears to be very trusting of the Government. Some on the Committee might think that is equally a very sensible and good thing, but obviously Governments come and go. Anything set out in any legislation that leaves things open also leaves them open to misinterpretation and the risk that they will not necessarily deliver that which was intended.

The entire eventual policy that new clause 14 would enable would be left up to Ministers, including the extent of an employee’s entitlement to leave, when leave may be taken and much more. I wonder whether the Liberal Democrats have a policy position on those matters; if they do, it seems rather trusting to just leave it up to the Government to determine, rather than setting it out in the new clause.

New clause 15 defines what is meant by kinship care. There is some confusion here, because the Government have set out their definition of kinship care in the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, which specifies that a child is in kinship care if

“the child lives with a relative, friend or other person connected with the child for all or part of the time”,

or if the child lives with that person

“for all of the time, or for more time than the child lives with a parent”,

and that person provides

“all of the care and support provided for the child, or more of that care and support than is provided for the child by a parent.”

A child is also in kinship care if the child lives with two or more relatives, friends or other persons

“all or most of the time (whether or not the child lives with those persons at the same time)”,

and

“those persons, taken together, provide all or most of the care and support provided for the child.”

That definition was introduced after new clause 15 was tabled, so it would be interesting to know whether there are aspects of the Government’s definition that the Liberal Democrats support, or whether they prefer their own, and why. It seems to me that, now there is live Government legislation in this area providing a perfectly good and well-meaning definition of kinship care, we do not need the new clause.

New clause 45, on additional leave for foster carers, would ensure that local authority foster parents are entitled to at least one extra week’s leave every 12 months. I would be interested to know whether the Liberal Democrats have undertaken any assessment of how businesses would be able to absorb the additional cost. That is not to say that we necessarily oppose the principle, but again, like with new clause 13, it would be important to know, before we could formally support any such change—well-meaning as it might be—whether that research has been done to understand the cost to business.

--- Later in debate ---

I thank the hon. Member for Torbay for his continued important advocacy for all families, including foster and kinship families. The Government remain committed to supporting all working families. On that basis, I ask the hon. Member not to press new clauses 14, 15 and 45 to a vote.

[Steve Darling]

I thank the Minister for that reassurance. In the light of that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 19

Consultation on trade union legislation

“(1) The Secretary of State must initiate a consultation on—

(a) the operation of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992; and

(b) the effects on that operation of provisions contained in Part 4 of this Act.

(2) The Secretary of State must lay before each House of Parliament, no sooner than eighteen weeks after the initiation referred to in subsection (1), a report on—

(a) the outcome of that consultation, and

(b) the Government’s proposals for changes to the legislation referred to in subsection (1).”—(Greg Smith.)

This new clause requires the Secretary of State to undertake a consultation on the operation of trade union legislation, and see also Amendment 116.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Greg Smith]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.