Police and Fire Shared Services

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd November 2015 Westminster Hall

[Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard, as I perform my first duty as a shadow Minister. I thank the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Amanda Milling) for securing this debate, and I think we all agree that it has been interesting. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) that there are areas where we can agree and areas where we will disagree. I was pleased to hear the comments made by the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Royston Smith). Hampshire has been mentioned several times during this debate as a shining example. I think that he said it was innovating its way out of financial problems. It was interesting to hear his view that mandatory mergers are unnecessary and that savings can be made by merging back offices and sharing functions with the council, the police force and the fire service.

I echo the comments made by the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss): we need to think about premises and not people when we talk about making savings. Also, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck that we need to thank people who work on the frontline. We have all paid tribute to our emergency services and the fantastic work that they do and the dedication that they show in keeping us safe and secure. We absolutely must pay heed to the workers and what they want from the services, not just what we might think is a good idea. We really need to consult those people and listen to them.

I want to keep my remarks brief because I want to give the Minister time to reply. I was quite entertained by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) who used the phrase “mandatory collaboration”. As oxymorons go, that wins this week’s prize. That emphasises how we are talking about a one-size-fits-all model across the whole country, and I do not think we can have such a model for providing emergency services. The Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill is being considered at the moment, which will give responsibility back to local areas, and we also have the localism agenda. To try to bring in mandatory legislation for every police and crime commissioner to have control over every fire service in the country goes against both the Bill and the localism agenda.

Several Members referred to the fire service working with the ambulance service—I think we can explore that route—and many fire services already do that. I am sorry to keep referring to my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck, but he is a fount of wisdom—[Interruption.] In my opinion he is. He discussed the different ways the police, fire and ambulance services are perceived by the public. Firefighters have a real fear that if they come under the jurisdiction of the police, they will be perceived differently by the public. I have spoken to them, and they feel that their role is very much a humanitarian one. They can see themselves working with the ambulance service—in fact, there are many examples from up and down the country of firefighters collaborating with paramedics and ambulance services—but they feel that their role in outreach work, helping in the community, dealing with community issues and going into people’s houses would be changed, and that the trust in them would be eroded, were they to go into partnership with the police, even though it might work in some areas. That is why, with all due respect to the hon. Member for Cannock Chase, I do not feel we should be going down the mandatory route. It should be for local areas to decide how best to run their emergency services.

I will move on to a few quick points that I wanted to address, and then I will give the Minister time to answer. I have just touched on the need for firefighters to be seen as neutral to gain access to people’s homes for prevention and rescue work. What assessment have the Government made of the effect on public perception of integrating front-line police and fire services? Several Members have discussed the fact that the police and fire services perform very different roles, so have very different command and control structures. I put it to the Minister that that might limit the opportunities for joint working. Significant concerns have been expressed about the role of the chief fire officer, who it appears would be subordinate to the police and crime commissioner under the new proposals. For such a partnership to be successful, it would have to be a partnership of equals, not a subordinate relationship.

An important point was made about fire and rescue services not serving the same geographical areas as police forces. That might make reorganisation in certain areas particularly challenging, with the possibility of further fragmentation to the service. The fire service currently lacks common guidance and a national procurement channel, so that is an opportunity we could explore that might provide some of the financial savings that are required. I am sure the Minister has a view on that and I would be interested to hear it.

I have already discussed how the fire and ambulance services work closely together, and there are several examples of that from England and Wales. The Government proposals seem to reflect a clear preference for collaboration between the police and fire services. Will the Minister consider revising the proposals? Given the common humanitarian remit of the fire and ambulance service, we should explore that option. There is also a general feeling in the Chamber that we could explore the possibility of integrating back-office services.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

I welcome the shadow Minister to her post. One reason why collaboration works so well in the county where I am fortunate to represent a seat is that we have done it voluntarily through local partnerships. The PCC in Hampshire, Simon Hayes, is crucial to the work between the police and the fire service. Before the election, the Opposition’s policy was to abolish PCCs. Can the hon. Lady confirm that that has now changed?

[Liz McInnes]

It was our policy at the general election. It was in our manifesto that we would abolish PCCs and put the money back into front-line policing. I am not aware that Labour party policy on PCCs has changed, but we are where we are. Whether I like it or not, we are in opposition and have to work with PCCs. That is the situation. I obviously have to deal with reality and with the here and now.

As I have already said, I do not believe that the proposed new arrangements should be mandatory. I stress to the Minister that local areas should be able to make local decisions. Where a fire and rescue service identifies that it could benefit from collaboration with another service, such as the ambulance service, or even first responders, as mentioned by the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies), it should be able to. Fire services should be free to consider other partnerships. They should not be tied to a single arrangement with the police.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

Mr Howarth, I look forward to serving under your chairmanship and receiving your guidance. This is my first outing as a shadow Minister on a Bill, and I know that I am sitting under two experienced Chairs who will make my life so much easier than it might otherwise have been. That is a plea, in case you had not worked it out.

As I made clear during my speech on Second Reading, we support the Bill’s principles and general approach. The 2015 Labour manifesto included a commitment to ban the sale and distribution of dangerous psychoactive substances. A blanket ban with listed exemptions appears to be the most effective means of beginning to tackle the serious public health problems that the drugs have brought about. During the Committee stage, we will look at the weaknesses in the drafting of the Bill, and will table amendments to try to improve it. I hope that the Government take our critique and suggestions in the constructive manner in which they are intended. We want to work with the Government, through the Committee, to make the Bill as effective and robust as possible.

The Government have elected to insert a new clause into the Bill, which will make it an offence to possess a psychoactive substance in a custodial institution. The new clause amends clause 1, which is consequential on the new offence. The Bill already contains offences of supply, and of possession with intent to supply, psychoactive substances, which apply to prisoners and staff as much as to the rest of the public. The new clause makes it an aggravating factor to supply such substances in or around a prison, meaning that the only new power would be the ability to further punish those involved with psychoactive substances. Although I share the Government’s concern about the problem of such substances in our prisons, I am not convinced that we lack enough statutes to bring charges against prisoners, staff and visitors.

I also assume that many of the prisoners in possession of and taking psychoactive substances in our custodial institutions are likely to be addicted and are possibly in prison because they needed to feed their habit. It would perhaps be better to treat such instances as a health issue rather than one of enforcement. As I have said, the Bill already contains offences of supply and possession with intent to supply in or near a prison as an aggravated offence, so I am not convinced that the addition of possession is necessary.

As I said on Second Reading, I am concerned by the findings in the prisons and probation ombudsman’s report of July of this year that new psychoactive substances had been a factor in at least 19 prisoner deaths between 2012 and 2014. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons’ annual report was just as concerning. It found that the availability of new psychoactive drugs has

“had a severe impact and has led to debt and associated violence.”

New psychoactive substances are undoubtedly a real problem for our prisons, which I am sure is what motivated the Minister to table the amendment. However, neither of the reports asked for legislation to help deal with the problem. Indeed, the drugs that the reports mention as causing problems, Black Mamba and Spice, are already controlled by the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, meaning that possessing the most problematic substances in our prisons is already a crime. In addition, the Prison Service already has powers to discipline and punish prisoners for possessing psychoactive substances though prison rules.

Both reports stress that better detection mechanisms for new psychoactive substances need to be in place. HMIP stated that many new psychoactive substances do not show up in mandatory drug tests, making it difficult for prison officers to know what they are dealing with and the scale of the problem they face. Too few drugs tests are taking place, due to inadequate staffing. The prisons ombudsman highlighted that the sniffer dogs used by prisons to detect drugs often could not identify new psychoactive substances, and that it was still waiting for X-ray body scanners to detect substances concealed in body cavities.

I understand that the prevalence of Spice in prisons can be high. Will the legislation have a deterrent effect? Is it practically possible to enforce, or will it be like handing out speeding tickets at a grand prix? Will the Minister explain what prompted his desire to introduce criminal sanctions for possessing a psychoactive substance in a prison? Does he genuinely feel that the prison system has enough resources to tackle the direct supply and demand of such substances? It does rather feel that the amendment has been tabled out of a desire to do something about the problem in our prisons because the Minister and the Government have not been able to do the right thing, which is to address the staffing and resources issues raised by HMIP and the prisons and probation ombudsman.

During my Second Reading speech, I stressed that we have to reduce supply and demand for such drugs, meaning that we need to focus on education, including education for prisoners and, I suggest, their families. The Minister’s letter to the Chairs of the Committee states that the new offence provided by this amendment will complement the work of the National Offender Management Service to

“educate prisoners, staff and visitors.”

Will the Minister update us on what changes the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice have made to the drug education strategy since July, which is when the prisons and probation ombudsman report recommended that the Prison Service should put in place a specific education programme about the dangers of psychoactive substances?

In conclusion, I am unconvinced that the new offence would provide any useful tools in tackling the problem of novel psychoactive substances in our prisons. It is already against prison rules to possess a psychoactive substance. It is also against the law to possess Black Mamba and Spice—the NPS that currently cause the most damage in our prisons. They are already banned. Custody professionals seem clear that the priority needs to be ensuring that prisons have the resources to deal with these substances and to educate their staff and prisoners. I think that makes sense and I agree with them.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

Unsurprisingly, I support the Government amendment. I will let my right hon. Friend the Minister answer directly the points made by the shadow Minister; I just want to make a couple of comments.

As I said in my Second Reading speech last Monday evening, there is unquestionably a huge problem in the secure estate. I referred to the work of RAPt—the Rehabilitation for Addicted Prisoners Trust. Before the debate, that excellent organisation sent hon. Members a research briefing, “Tackling the issue of New Psychoactive Substances in prisons”. It lays the situation out pretty starkly. As I did not last week, I will not pull my punches now. RAPt says that NPS use has quickly become widespread among prisoners. The annual report from NOMS affirms that increased NPS use among prisoners is generating high levels of debt, intimidation and violence between prisoners and is likely to be the main catalyst for the recent rise in attacks on prison staff. I will come on to my constituency experience of that in a moment. RAPt says on the scale of the problem:

“The number of prisoners using NPS varies across prisons”—

across the estate—

“but some estimates suggest as many as 60% to 90% of the prison population use, or have used, NPS.”

As the shadow Minister said, Spice seems to be the NPS of choice at the moment. It is also known as Black Mamba—I cannot ever say that without smiling—or Clockwork Orange. Some of the quotes in the report by RAPt are shocking. They include the following:

“Prisoners who had used Spice described it as being ‘like a crack addiction’ or ‘like cannabis, just a lot stronger’…Others have seriously injured themselves head-butting mirrors thinking they were being attacked…One prisoner had witnessed ‘someone bury a knife in someone’s neck [on Spice] ’cause they were paranoid’…There is also a game that is becoming popular in prisons”—

this has been reported to me—

“It is often called the…50 pound challenge. In the game, prisoners are challenged to smoke £50 worth of Spice. If they manage to smoke it all before breaking down or passing out, then they get it for free. If they fail they have to pay for it.”

We can see how this is becoming the new currency in prisons. When I first started going into prisons for my work on the Justice Committee and in my constituency, tobacco was the currency, but without question NPS are becoming the currency. I have Her Majesty’s Prison— and young offenders institution—Winchester in my constituency. As I said on Second Reading, Dave Rogers, who is a very good governor, is struggling to deal with the effects of Spice at the moment inside Winchester prison. He told me that last month there were three ambulances on the estate at one time for three prisoners who had taken NPS in the exercise yard and were unconscious. That is gravely concerning to me.

The shadow Minister says that we currently have powers. Under the Bill, simple possession of a psychoactive substance in the wider community is not criminalised, but the Government have rightly concluded that the problem is such that it requires a different approach in the context of the secure estate because it is particularly destructive there. All my experience of working inside and outside prisons is that control and order is fundamental to prison life. When that breaks down, we have anarchy and people unfortunately die. People are dying in prisons at an alarming rate. There are many and varied reasons for that, but they are dying under our care. The state is their guardian and they are dying under our care.

I completely agree with and want to restate this point made by the Minister in his letter to us:

“The introduction of a criminal offence for possession…in a custodial institution would complement the continuing work by the National Offender Management Service to educate prisoners, staff and visitors about the harms caused by psychoactive substances and…enable firm measures to be taken to punish those who possess psychoactive substances in prison.”

The shadow Minister is right to say that at the moment there is an offence that can add 42 days to an offender’s time in custody. [Interruption.] I think that the Minister agreed from a sedentary position. However, this measure takes that on much further and sends a much clearer message.

[Lyn Brown]

I completely agree with everything that the hon. Gentleman has said. I want to ask him, however, about education. If we are going to deal with individual prisoners for possession rather than supply—pushing—I am absolutely with him, but surely education and treatment would be more beneficial to not only the prisoner but the community at large.

[Steve Brine]

I was just about to come on to that; the shadow Minister is a visionary. I want to have my cake and eat it too; I want to strengthen the law in this area, but the wider challenge, as the governor at Winchester prison said to me, is that the debate today is not only about making NPS illegal and changing the law on possession in prisons. In my experience, prisoners will always want to use illegal substances. They will always want to get “loaded”, as I said on Second Reading, whether that be through a class A drug, a class B drug or NPS.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Lyn Brown]

I accept what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I think he was in the cannabis debate we had in Westminster Hall two weeks ago—[Interruption.] He was not; I am sorry. In that debate, I raised the issue of equity: somebody might be done for cannabis possession in West Ham but not in West Norwood, because police forces up and down the country take very different views about enforcement in their patch. It is about the way in which they enforce these matters. For me, the law is the law. I want equity across the country in the way in which things are dealt with; I do not see why there should not be equity across the country. I hope that helps the hon. Gentleman.

The clause as drafted makes no distinction between social suppliers and large-scale commercial suppliers. The ACMD is worried that that is disproportionate, and I probably agree. I know there is an argument that social supply is an important part of the supply chain of those drugs, and therefore it ought to be included within the reach of the Bill. Although Home Office research shows that a third of NPS were obtained through a friend or colleague, other surveys of young adults who are clubbers, such as the Global Drug Survey, have different findings that show a much higher level of internet buying of psychoactive substances.

Social suppliers are at the very end of the supply chain. I hope that this legislation, which I know we are going to pass, will enable us to disrupt and break up the immoral organisations that sell drugs to social suppliers: the head shops, the internet sites and, ultimately, the drug producers. We can reduce the social supply without criminalising young people who may not even be aware that they are breaking the law. A criminal record is one of the most harmful and life-limiting penalties we can levy on a young adult. A conviction for drug possession is not well regarded by educational institutions or potential employers. A conviction for drug supply has potentially far worse consequences, as it is rightly regarded as a much more serious offence.

Without a well-funded, comprehensive education and communication programme, there will be plenty of confusion about the legal status of NPS. It will take years to completely remove the dangerous marketing misnomer of “legal highs” from ordinary language. There is bound to be confusion about drugs that are legal to possess but not to supply, import or export, if only because they are new and unfamiliar to our legal framework. The same ignorance cannot be claimed for the drug pushers, professional drug dealers and producers who are the people we really ought to be going after.

Our amendment would add “for personal gain” to the end of the clause. That is similar to the way financial gain is considered an important factor in the sentencing guidelines for drugs controlled by the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. Those guidelines suggest that those who make substantial gains ought to be considered, for the purpose of sentencing, to have played a leading role in supply. With that careful wording, prosecutors would still be able to prosecute individuals for selling to people they happen to know for the sake of personal profit. Small-scale, local criminals could still be punished for bringing harm to their communities, but genuine social suppliers, who are ultimately the users of the drugs, rather than the people pushing them, would be excluded.

We tabled amendment 49 to clause 7 to have the same intended legal effect as our amendment to clause 5. The same principles that govern the prohibition of supply, which is set out in clause 5, should also apply to possession with intent to supply, which is set out in clause 7. I note that the Scottish National party tabled a similar amendment, which also has the intended effect of excluding social supply from the scope of the Bill. I am quite happy to work with the SNP and the Government to work out which formulation would most effectively exclude social supply without creating easily exploitable loopholes. I firmly believe that we should be working on this problem together.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

I am listening carefully to what the hon. Lady says. Is the “for personal gain” that she suggests should be inserted into clause 5 consistent with the wording that would appear in, say, the 1971 Act? Has she taken advice to that effect? I appreciate that she might not have the answer at her fingertips.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lyn Brown]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend.

If the Minister cannot accept our amendments, I ask him at least to provide strong assurances that sentencing guidelines will be drawn up in a way that makes a distinction between social suppliers and suppliers for financial profit.

[Steve Brine]

This is where I am on this: I understand exactly what the hon. Lady says, but one could intentionally supply a substance to another person socially and it could still be for personal gain, because they could still make a few quid out of it. Therefore, a prosecutor might struggle with that distinction. I am interested to hear the shadow Minister’s view on sentencing guidelines.

[Lyn Brown]

I think the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We need to be clear in this Committee about who we want to target most. If we can make that clear, we might stand a chance of the legislation producing more than just five prosecutions and making a real impact on the “legal highs” that are out there. We should be going after those who are flooding our communities with invidious substances and tackling the real cause of the problems on our streets.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lyn Brown]

I have enormous sympathy for the motivations that drove the hon. Gentleman to table the amendments. One of my first jobs was working in a children’s home, so I know just how vulnerable children can be. I also know that he has the support of the Children’s Society, which has been helping to make childhood in Britain safer for more than 100 years and is a fine organisation.

The Children’s Society has highlighted the relationship between new psychoactive substances and exploitation. Sometimes, that exploitation is economic, with reports of drug dealers forcing young men to work for them in order to pay off debts they that have accumulated by trying NPS. Sadly, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, we also face the problem of sexual exploitation. The Children’s Commissioner found that more than a third—35%—of the children most at risk of sexual exploitation were living in residential care.

PACE—Parents against child sexual exploitation—have demonstrated that young girls have been targeted by groomers with NPS to try to get them hooked. We are all shocked by the grooming scandals that have hit many of our cities and towns, and I am in no doubt that the people engaged in such crimes are just the sort of criminals who ought to be hit by the strictest penalties provided by aggravated offences.

I am interested to hear what the Government make of the amendments. If they cannot accept the current drafting, would they be willing to go away, think about it and come back with alternative plans on Report, because this is an important issue? Will the Minister devote special attention to making sure that vulnerable children are given specific and focused education to ensure that they have the resilience to say no to those who want to prey on them with NPS and other drugs?

[Steve Brine]

On Second Reading, I mentioned Baseline Training, an assessment and training company based in my constituency. Further to what the shadow Minister was saying about the exploitation of young people, Baseline gave me some truly shocking evidence before the Bill was introduced in the House. In April this year, the Hampshire and Isle of Wight drug strategy group had good intelligence that young girls had performed sex acts on men who provided them with mephedrone. There is good evidence coming from Hampshire and, I suspect, other parts of the country that backs up what the shadow Minister said.

[Lyn Brown]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I emphasise again that young people in care are vulnerable and need us as their parents, in loco parentis, to help them to say no to those who want to exploit them and prey on them with NPS and other drugs. They need support so that they can look out for themselves.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords]

Steve Brine Excerpts

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

I am sure that many individuals in this House could pick on individual substances that have gone underground, making the situation worse, but the vast majority of products that were sold to people who thought they were safe are no longer being sold. That has happened in Ireland and in other countries. I had the New Zealand Minister with me only the other day to look at exactly what we are trying to do. The legislation has been campaigned for over a considerable period and we are taking action, which I would have thought is exactly what we should be doing.

As I have said, I will table amendments in Committee. We listened carefully to the work done by our noble friends in the other place and we will have to make quite a few consequential amendments to frame the amendment they made in the Bill. We are also considering whether there are areas in which we should ban possession.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

The Minister mentions the word “possession”. The word “prisons” appears on the face of the Bill only once. I see that the Prisons Minister is sitting with him on the Front Bench, and I wonder whether when the Bill goes upstairs to Committee they might consider making possession an offence inside the secure estate.

[Mike Penning]

I have received a large number of delegations that have made arguments about the effect on the prison population, on prison officers and on morale and safety within the secure estate, which includes prisons, and we are going to look very carefully at whether we can propose an amendment. I believe that there are some processes to be followed to ensure that we can do that, but the Prisons Minister and I are minded to ensure that the prison estate is as safe as possible for prisoners as well as staff. Legal highs are having a massive effect on that part of the prison estate as well as on other parts of the secure estate. My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), like others in the Chamber, has campaigned long and hard on this issue and has brought it up on more than one occasion. We are considering the issue and I hope to table amendments in Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the shadow Minister. I very much enjoyed her subtly constructive contribution to the debate. I am sure that the Committee will be great fun.

There were many good things about the Conservative manifesto on which Government Members were elected in May. The inclusion of a commitment to

“create a blanket ban on all new psychoactive substances”

was very welcome to my constituents in Winchester.

Like many Members who are here tonight, I have spoken about this subject many times since entering the House in 2010. There have been numerous debates in this Chamber and Westminster Hall, and it has been raised frequently in Home Office questions and Prime Minister’s questions. As a Back Bencher in the last Parliament and, in its final year, as Parliamentary Private Secretary to the excellent Minister who opened the debate from the Dispatch Box, this has been something of a mission for me. I must say at the outset that I will support the Bill tonight. I thank the Minister for the way in which he laid it out for us.

As I have said many times, new psychoactive substances, or legal highs as they are commonly known, are often not legal and do not always get people high. Why do I say that? Very often they land people under arrest because they are not legal and, in too many tragic cases, they do not get people high but cost them their lives.

NPSs are notoriously difficult to identify. Currently, they have to be regulated on a substance-by-substance or group-by-group basis because of their diversity and the speed with which they are developed to replace drugs that are controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. Many NPSs are legal because they have not yet been assessed for their harm and considered for control under the 1971 Act. That is not because they are inherently safe for human use—far from it.

That is the cruellest danger of the legal highs that I have seen. So often, they are sold as harmless fun at high-street head shops or at the festivals that I happily frequent every summer. As the Parliament of this country, we have a grave responsibility to protect our children from this menace. As things stand, we are simply not doing that.

Mephedrone is probably the best example of a legal high that was just that until people died and we acted. It appeared in 2008-09 and quickly gained a lot of media attention due to its tragic death toll. It became a class B drug in April 2010 and has declined significantly in popularity since.

Ketamine is another example of a “party drug” that, although originally a class C drug, has left lives ruined or worse in its wake. For those who are listening to this debate, whether outside the House or inside it, I will be blunt. Ketamine is a powerful general anaesthetic that stops one feeling pain. It is used for operations on humans and animals. If you’re lucky, the effects do not last that long. Until those effects wear off, ketamine can cause a loss of feeling in the body, paralysis of the muscles, confusion, agitation, panic attacks, and impairment of the short and long-term memory. Frequent use is sometimes associated with the development of severe depression. Again we acted, and in June 2014 ketamine changed from a class C to a class B drug.

Sadly, that was not soon enough for 18-year-old Ellie Rowe, who collapsed at a festival in my constituency in August 2013 after taking the drug. Ellie was a dedicated Army cadet, and she obtained the Duke of Edinburgh gold award a few months before her death. She had everything to live for, but for £40 her life was gone. That paltry sum got her and her best friend two grams of the drug which, according to the inquest that followed, she inhaled after drinking several cans of lager and suffered a fatal cardiac arrest as a result.

Speaking after the verdict, her dad said:

“I always imagined if any harm came to Ellie it would be on a bungee jump or canoeing down a fierce river or in an accident on a mountain—but nothing like this. She was so sensible. It’s an absolute tragedy for our family. It was one act of stupidity that has destroyed a family.”

Ellie’s mum was at the festival in Winchester this summer and last summer—the summer after her daughter died there—warning young people about the dangers they face from these drugs. I spoke to Ellie’s mum, Wendy, this morning, and it was not an easy conversation. She gave me permission to use her daughter’s tragic case in today’s debate, for which I thank her. Her message was this: yes, ban these substances, especially if it reduces demand, but please do not think that the law is the start and the end of the matter—I suspect that other Members will raise that point tonight. Of course we do not think that, and as the Minister said in his opening remarks, we must be careful about criminalising young people for silly mistakes. A criminal record can also ruin lives, and education about the dangers of these drugs—legally as much as physically—must not stop if this Bill receives Royal Assent.

Wendy’s final point when we spoke this morning was telling. She said that we should help young people to broaden their horizons and expand their consciousness without the aid of mind-altering drugs. Perhaps our education system in this country is not making room for our young people to be creative enough—possibly that is too deep for this time on a Monday night, but my point remains.

I am reminded of the opening lines from that seminal track, “Loaded”, by Primal Scream—a band that I am sure you are very familiar with, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is taken from the classic 1960s film “The Wild Angels” starring Peter Fonda. The question posed at the start of the song is:

“Just what is it that you want to do?”

Heavenly Blues, played by Peter Fonda, replies:

“We wanna be free

We wanna be free to do what we wanna do

And we wanna get loaded

And we wanna have a good time”.

It is a great song.

That may be the first time that Primal Scream has been quoted in this House, but there is a serious point. The music industry and the popular culture industry have a responsibility, and we as a society must dig deep into why young people in our country today want to alter their state of mind and get so “loaded” or “wasted”—there are many other words—as part of what should be a fun night out.

In preparing my remarks for this debate, I acknowledge the contribution of Hampshire constabulary, Dr Ruth Milton, our director of public health in Hampshire, and Jack Briggs of drug and alcohol specialists Baseline Training, which is based my constituency. The picture they give of NPS prevalence in Hampshire is consistent and deeply worrying. An intelligence overview produced by Hampshire constabulary in March this year found that across Hampshire and the Isle of Wight there were at least 16 NPS retailers—head shops—with the number growing all the time. Analysis by the constabulary suggests that NPS use is more common in areas surrounding head shops, and that in turn leads to more shops opening to meet the demand.

Winchester has its store on Stockbridge Road, which is passed by hundreds of school and college students every day. It is even neatly placed right by the city railway station. I have been inundated with complaints about that shop from constituents, and I was pleased to give them our manifesto commitment—which we are debating today—in response.

An intelligence report to the Hampshire and Isle of Wight drug strategy group in April this year reported that NPSs remain in “prolific common use”, with vulnerable people such as those with alcohol addiction, mental health issues and homelessness being susceptible to targeting by NPS dealers.

The reference to homeless people in the city of Winchester and long-term drug users being targeted to move on to NPSs certainly struck a chord with me. Trinity Winchester is a charity in my constituency which addresses the effects of homelessness and vulnerability through specialist practical help and support. Sue and Michelle from Trinity confirmed to me, ahead of today’s debate, the stark increase they have seen in clients under the effect of NPS. Equally, Winchester’s night shelter sees the effects of NPSs on a daily basis in its work.

The harm NPSs are causing and the complexity they are adding to already stretched public services is of grave concern to me as a constituency MP. This is supported by anecdotal reports from Winchester’s mental health team, which reports considerable problems as a result of NPS use. They speak of some withdrawal symptoms which appear to mimic mental illness, settling down once the NPSs have left their system. The mental health team reports that NPSs have been noticed locally as having a significant impact on severity, longevity and intensity of psychosis. They also cause problems with finding the right treatment for a patient, hence the case complexity. As Sue from Trinity said to me just this morning:

“We exist to help people with work and housing problems. We cannot begin with them if they are presenting to us spaced out or worse.”

Before concluding, I want to touch on prisons. In the previous Parliament, I was fortunate enough to serve on the Justice Committee, which gave me a wide insight into prisons and the challenges they increasingly face with NPSs. It is true that problems in the wider community sooner or later become problems in the secure estate. Whether we like to admit it or not, prisons are merely a reflection of our society. According to an excellent briefing sent to me by the Rehabilitation for Addicted Prisoners Trust, NPS use has quickly become widespread among prisoners. The 2015 annual report from the National Offender Management Service affirmed that increased NPS use among prisoners is generating high levels of debt, intimidation and violence between prisoners, and is likely to be the main catalyst for the recent rise in attacks on prison staff.

Reports given to me by HMP-YOI Winchester confirm the use of legal highs inside its walls is now widespread. Winchester now has trained drugs dogs, but there are a variety of compounds used in NPSs, so if the core compound is not the same as the dog has been trained for, it simply misses the substance. It seems the new currency inside our prisons is not tobacco or cannabis, but the NPS known as Spice. It is a lethal substance existing under the brand names Herbal Haze, Damnation and Space Cadet. The governor told me that on one day last month there were three ambulances in the prison yard, after three prisoners had taken Spice.

[Paul Flynn]

How will the Bill reduce the prevalence of Spice in prisons, when all illegal drugs are freely available in all our prisons?

[Steve Brine]

I have already talked, in exchanges with those on the Front Bench, about amendments I would like to see tabled in Committee on the possession of legal highs in the secure state. The Minister gave a very strong response. I dare say the hon. Gentleman will have his chance to make his remarks later on.

This trend in our prisons is worrying on many levels, but it is another reason why we need a social revolution in this country about how we use prisons. As the governor of Winchester prison said to me, today’s debate is not just about making NPSs illegal; it is about looking at the effects that that will have on the prison economy and behaviours. He said:

“Prisoners will always want to use illegal substances whether they be a class A or B drugs or NPS. There has to be more done to support for those who want to kick the habit. Our services are being stretched. The punishments for those caught with NPS or any other drug have to be substantial. However, the trick is to ensure that this does not then incentivise more bullying and coercion. A total ban will clarify the position, but cannot be done in isolation in my view. There needs to be a range of things available to support vulnerable prisoners who have a drug habit.”

I could not put it better myself, which is why I quote the governor.

I want to place on the record how pleased I was to see noble Lords in the other place amend the Bill on Report to ensure the supply of a substance banned under the Act in prison would be an aggravated offence under section 5. I believe we need to go further, and that has already been covered with the Minister.

It is important to note that tackling this menace is not all about waiting for this Parliament to act, important as that is. Just last week, the police and crime commissioner for Hampshire, Simon Hayes, launched his Lethal Highs campaign to raise awareness among young people of the dangers of NPSs. The advertising campaign that supports it does not pull its punches and that is welcome by me. Equally, Hampshire’s public health response is built around reducing demand, restricting supply and the use of Trading Standards. Hampshire is working with Catch22, training professionals in education, social care and health to better support their efforts, and Hampshire Trading Standards has been active in pursuing a change in the legislation—I believe it supports the Bill. Using the existing law, however, Trading Standards has been unable to secure a prosecution for the sale of NPSs. Instead, it focuses on supporting the police down the route of antisocial behaviour legislation where the problem is associated in the area of a particular retailer.

It does not take a genius to work out that this is fiddling while Rome burns. It is all good work, but we are tying hands behind backs without the Bill. Its critics, from whom I dare say we will hear tonight, have argued that the market will continue as before, through internet sales, and be driven underground into criminal hands. I am not sure I entirely agree. The expert panel reported that the main drivers of NPS consumption were, one, legality; two, availability; three, potency; and four, price. Often, these substances are highly intoxicating but give relatively little pleasure, so it is reasonable to argue that people will be much less likely to seek them once their legal status has changed.

In conclusion, by creating a blanket ban on the production, distribution, sale and supply of psychoactive substances in the UK, we will change the rules of the game hugely in favour of the police and other agencies working to keep our constituents safe. For that reason, I am happy to support the Bill on Second Reading.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD)]

I should say at the start that I am instinctively hostile to drugs and their excessive use, be they legal or illegal. I make the same admission as the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Anne McLaughlin), the spokesperson for the Scottish nationalists: I have never taken any illegal substance. My absolute anxiety about the impact of drugs on society does not lead me to conclude, however, that this Bill is the right way—the best way—to address the problem. I am anxious about the impact of prohibition. As we have seen so often internationally, it brings with it unintended consequences, so we have to proceed carefully.

My plea to those who support the Bill is that they accept the bona fides of those of us who have concerns, as we may have exactly the same interest at heart. I share all the anxieties that the hon. Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) expressed, but we reach a different conclusion about the best way of addressing this harm. My whole interest is in reducing harm, particularly to young people. My anxiety is that although this Bill is seductive in its attraction, it is none the less misguided.

[Steve Brine]

I do not mean this unkindly and I realise that the Lib Dems are moving on from the manifesto on which the right hon. Gentleman stood at the last election, but did not that manifesto contain a pledge to implement exactly what his colleague, the former Member for Lewes, laid the groundwork for in government with regard to this Bill?

[Norman Lamb]

I would have to check that. All I want to do is say what I believe, which is ultimately what we should be doing in debate in this place.

First, let me raise a concern about process. The Government have circumvented the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, but they are unwise to do so. Its clear legal remit has been ignored. It is there to advise precisely on such issues. It seemed somewhat cynical to consult it after the text of the Bill had been drafted and just two days before the Bill was laid, and then for the Government to ignore its recommendations. Instead, the Home Office convened a separate new expert group. What on earth is the point of that when we have an advisory committee that is legally obliged to advise on such issues? It seems that the duty of the advisory committee has been fettered in a very damaging way.

The definition seems to be flawed. As the hon. Member for Glasgow North East said, is it not extraordinary that at this point of our consideration of a Bill there is such concern about the possible implications of a definition? The view of many is that it is impossible to provide a scientifically or legally meaningful definition of a psychoactive substance. The definition is very broad. At least in principle, it could cover thousands of plants, spices, herbal remedies and over-the-counter medicines. The degree of psychoactivity necessary to establish a criminal offence is also completely unclear, as it is unspoken in the Bill, but that will create a legal and scientific minefield. As the advisory committee warned, there is a risk of serious unintended consequences.

Under the blanket ban, there will be absolutely no distinction between very risky substances and relatively safe ones, as all are treated exactly the same under the Bill. Two of the most dangerous drugs of all—alcohol and tobacco—are exempted. Hon. Members should bear in mind that tobacco kills 100,000 people in our country every year. What is more dangerous than that? Alcohol causes untold damage to society, yet it is exempted from the Bill, and that seems to undermine respect for the law.

Let us look at the international evidence. Since a blanket ban was introduced in Ireland in 2010, usage has increased to the point where it is the highest in Europe. That is under a system that involves a ban, so should not that make us pause for reflection? In Poland, there was initially a drop in use after the introduction of a ban, but there was then a dramatic increase in use. The number of NPS-induced poisonings—we are now talking directly about harm to individuals—has risen dramatically from 562 cases in 2010 to 1,600 cases in the first 10 months of 2014. Does that not cause the Government to stop and think about the implications of passing the Bill? The analysis of the Home Office—the Department promoting the Bill—says:

“Looking across different countries, there is no apparent correlation between the toughness of a country’s approach and the prevalence of adult drug usage.”

Again, should not the Home Office be reflecting on its own analysis?

Assisted Dying (No. 2) Bill

Steve Brine Excerpts

Friday 11th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

In my five years in this House I have found that a great deal of what we do here tests our nerves as well as our politics and faith. Some days test them far more than that, and today is one of those days. Legislating in this place is, of course, about the principle and the big picture, and that is what Second Reading is all about. We must also ask ourselves whether the practicalities of the Bill match the principle.

I mentioned faith, and it is no secret that I am a Christian. That is not something that is said often in this House, and I was not elected as a Christian Conservative in May. That is part of who I am and it guides me in what I am saying today, but it is not the whole story. Indeed, at least in part, I surprise myself with how I intend to vote today, which is against Second Reading. I say that because I am hugely sympathetic to many of the arguments that have been put forward, not least by the Bill’s promoter who I thought spoke with dignity. I have received a huge mailbag on this issue, as have many Members, and it has been a pleasure to receive genuine letters and emails from constituents, instead of click-send robotic emails.

I understand that there is not insignificant support in the medical community for this Bill, and that there is nothing compassionate about someone having to travel far from their loved ones at great cost in order to die, if that is the awful conclusion they have reached. I am aware of the published opinion polls among the public, but I use the word “published” deliberately because as Winston Churchill said:

“There is no such thing as public opinion. There is only published opinion.”

There was just one opinion poll, and as we know from this year, opinion polls are not entirely always accurate.

[Andrew Bridgen]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Steve Brine]

I will not because it is only fair that I crack on and give everyone a chance to speak.

Ahead of today, I read widely and I have thought about this issue deeply for a long time. I have met constituents who urged me to vote in support of the Bill, and those on the other side of the argument. Those supporting the Bill include members of Dignity in Dying in my constituency whom I met before the recess, and I could feel their sense of optimism and hope that many years of campaigning were finally coming to an end and that this is the moment that they had hoped and campaigned for—it certainly would not be the last moment during this Parliament.

If I was going to vote in support of the Bill, I would have to be 100% sure that it replaced the law we have with something better, and I genuinely do not think that that is the case. I spoke in the Back-Bench debate in March 2012 to express support for the then DPP’s guidance on applying the Suicide Act 1961, and I still think—I listened to every word from the hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer)—that that strikes the right balance. The public interest factors that he set out tending in favour and against prosecution were widely consulted on, as he said, and it was a successful consultation that received strong support from this House on that day. In my opinion—and having the opportunity to express it is why we are elected as Members of Parliament—those public interest factors remain fit for purpose.

The question for me is this: should we allow a small number of high-profile cases, no matter how tragic—of course, any human being with any element of faith and compassion understands that they are tragic—to pressurise us into changing a law that I believe is working as intended?

Given that that is my view, how can we improve the current law? Does the Bill and its 13 clauses show a better way? I do not believe it does. There has been much talk of Oregon today and there will be much more. We are told by the campaign group, Dignity in Dying, that medical opinion is divided. It says to me that some 57% of doctors feel that assisted dying legislation, with up-front safeguards, would be the best way to protect terminally ill patients who want to die. But that presumably means 43% do not, if we take those figures at face value.

If a terminally ill person decides to make a declaration for an assisted death using a schedule to the Bill, they would reasonably expect to ask their doctor to be one of the two signatories they require. If the said doctor is one of the 43%, what then? Clause 5 rightly contains provision for conscientious objection, so will we see in this country what we see in other jurisdictions, which is known as “doctor shopping”?

We then have the new safeguard in the Bill, namely the High Court judge confirmation. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) about this issue being so serious. How would it work in practice? The Bill sets out a timescale for court decisions that would make robust scrutiny almost impossible. What would the judicial signatory require? Would there be a hearing with evidence presented, or would it just act as a rubber stamp? On those two points, the practicalities of the Bill do not convince me.

Let me return, in closing, to the principle of changing the law to legalise assisted suicide. Many of those who have written to me ahead of today’s debate warn that the Bill will create a slippery slope. I do not necessarily buy that argument. As the Bill’s promoter said, any amendments to the Bill would have to come back to the House and undergo parliamentary scrutiny, but come back they surely would. I note in Oregon earlier this year that there was a move to change the six months to a year. The Bill proposes six months, but I can see that being moved. Of course, all this runs up against the evidence I have heard from palliative care consultants in my constituency that, as many other Members have outlined, six months is a long, long time to determine a death.

It seems to me that we live in a world today obsessed by choice and consumerism. We want to have a career and the perfect family life. We want to shop every hour of the week. I find myself agreeing with the Bishop of Bristol, who said last month how the supporters of the Bill present it, in part, as a simple matter of individual choice with

“choice being the great God of a consumerised society.”

I think he hits the nail on the head. I believe that choice creates the burden; it does not set you free. We must significantly up our game in respect of how we provide end-of-life care, rather than handing out the right in law to take a life away.

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 18th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

What a load of complete nonsense! The reality is that the Opposition have no idea how to deal with the problem of reoffending. They are in opposition, and we are now less than a year away from a general election, yet I have not the slightest idea of what they would do in our place. I am not prepared to allow a situation to continue in which people are left to walk the streets with no post-prison supervision, resulting in thousands of them reoffending, when we know from the experience of the pilot that we set up in Peterborough that mentoring those offenders can bring down crime significantly.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

4. What steps he is taking to reduce reoffending by persistent offenders.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

6. What progress he has made on his reforms to rehabilitation aimed at reducing reoffending.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)]

On 13 March 2014, the Offender Rehabilitation Act 2014 received Royal Assent. This Act addresses the gap that sees 50,000 short-sentenced prisoners—those most likely to reoffend—released on to the streets each year with no support, by providing those offenders with supervision in the community for the first time in recent history.

[Steve Brine]

The Minister will be aware that a major reducing reoffending conference was held in Winchester earlier this month, organised by the high sheriff of Hampshire and the police and crime commissioner. Does he agree that although we must bring short-term persistent offenders into supervision, as we are doing, we must also invest heavily in treatment and give sentencers some real options if the system is to work? That has been done, and successfully, in the Right on Crime initiative in Texas.

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 4th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)]

5. What plans he has to ensure that young offenders leave custody better equipped to avoid a life of crime.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

7. What plans he has to ensure that young offenders leave custody better equipped to avoid a life of crime.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

11. What plans he has to ensure that young offenders leave custody better equipped to avoid a life of crime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeremy Wright]

My hon. Friend is right: that is exactly what we hear from young offenders, and evidence is overwhelming that young offenders who engage in education, get qualifications, and go on to find work, have a better chance of staying out of trouble. That is exactly what we want to see.

[Steve Brine]

Does the Minister agree that custody in secure colleges provides an opportunity to end the chaos that many of these children face and to impose boundaries that have all too often been lacking in their lives? Will he stick rigidly to the cross-departmental approach that was set out so intelligently in the “Transforming Youth Custody” paper, which is now a year old?

[Jeremy Wright]

We want to see a cross-Government approach to this, and my hon. Friend is right to say that many other Departments have an interest in what we are doing. He is also right that a period of stability is vital. It may be a relatively short period of incarceration for those young people, but it is probably one of the few opportunities they have had to be clear about where their next meal will come from and where they are going to sleep, and to give us the space to address some of their significant problems. That is a large part of what we intend to do.

Offender Rehabilitation Bill [Lords]

Steve Brine Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sadiq Khan]

If the Justice Secretary was saying that he had evidence that privatising probation worked or that it would save money, he would have an argument. He is saying neither, which is why we suspect that this is all about ideology rather than the evidence of what works. Although we agree with the broad objectives of the Bill—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but I can hear chuntering from the Lib Dem Whip, the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt), which is quite distracting. I am not sure whether she is trying to persuade her hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham to vote with her, or to put me off my stride—[Interruption.] She is certainly better than the Justice Secretary at trying to put me off my stride.

Although we agree with the broad objectives of the Bill, there are some major areas of difference between us and the Government and some big questions remain unanswered. Those questions are so fundamental that they cast a shadow over the Bill and call into question whether its objectives can be implemented without taking a serious gamble with public safety as a result. The Bill has been brought forward against a backdrop of upheaval and change—change that is not informed by evidence or statistics, but driven by recklessness and ideology.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

rose—

[Sadiq Khan]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman before making progress.

[Steve Brine]

I am sorry to distract the shadow Secretary of State, but I want to ask him a question. We discussed this subject in an Opposition day debate recently, and we agree on the broad objectives of the Bill, as he says. So that I am clear, will he tell me whether, if he is Justice Secretary in 18 months’ time, he will repeal the Offender Management Act 2007, which paves the way for much of the Bill and for what I presume, all things being equal, will become the Offender Rehabilitation Act 2013 or 2014? Will he repeal both those pieces of legislation?

[Sadiq Khan]

The 2007 Act was permissive. It gave the Justice Secretary powers that could be used if probation trusts were failing. Probation trusts were supposed to commission services; I will come on to how the Act works in practice. As far as the Bill is concerned, if I were in a fit of pique, I would be an ideologue and do what my gut told me, but I look at the evidence on what works. That is what I will look at when I become Justice Secretary on 8 May 2015.

Probation Service

Steve Brine Excerpts

Wednesday 30th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sadiq Khan]

If the hon. Gentleman wants me to go back to the beginning of my speech, I would be happy to do so—this is one of the problems when Members read a hand-out from the Whips—but I have already answered that question.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sadiq Khan]

I know that a lot of work has gone into the hand-outs, but let me make some progress.

Another concern is that the big multinationals will dominate, just as they did in the Work programme, because they are the only ones that have financial clout. Smaller companies and charities will be used as bid candy to sweeten the less palatable bids of the big corporations. People should not take my word for it; the deputy chief executive of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, Ben Kernighan, has said that

“under its most significant public service reform so far, the Work Programme, many charities have found themselves squeezed out by large commercial providers. In the interests of helping ex-offenders who could benefit from charities’ expertise, the government must ensure the mistakes of the Work Programme are not repeated.”

Nothing has persuaded me that those mistakes will not be repeated.

Our concerns do not end there. Another £600,000 a year of the Ministry’s budget will go to companies that have let us down before over electronic tagging, Olympic security, prisoner transport and the Work programme. Those companies will be beyond the scope of freedom of information requests, which will do nothing to lessen the chances of fraud or irregularities.

We are also concerned about the length of the proposed contracts. The Official Journal of the European Union states that the contract lengths will be between seven and 10 years, with an option to extend them to 13 years. The estimated value of each contract is between £5 billion and £20 billion. Imagine what great work the public sector could do if it was awarded similarly long contracts and such stability, rather than having a year-to-year, hand-to-mouth existence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I will make some progress before giving way to hon. Members. Let me get established first.

The reality is that crime in Britain is falling, which is good. There are fewer first-time criminals, which is also good. However, increasingly, crime is committed by people who have offended previously, who are going around and around the system. Reoffending in Britain has barely changed in a decade—it rose again in the past year. It is as high as it was five years ago when the trusts were formed and the reforms were introduced.

Just yesterday, we released statistics that paint a grim picture of reoffending in this country. More than 148,000 criminals convicted or cautioned in the past year had at least 15 previous convictions or cautions. More than 500,000 offenders had at least one previous conviction or caution, including 95% of those given short sentences of less than 12 months. That group of offenders—prisoners who are released from short sentences of less than a year—have long been neglected by the system. They are at the heart of what we want to achieve.

[Steve Brine]

Will the Lord Chancellor give way?

[Chris Grayling]

I will give way in a moment.

The overall reoffending rates of that group are shocking. In the year to September 2011, nearly 60% of them went on to commit a further crime. Nearly 85,000 further crimes were committed by the group who walk out of prison with £46 in their pockets and get little or no support to get their lives back together and turn away from crime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

I am not frightened, and I will talk about the legislative base later. I am not frightened to debate—I am here today debating. We are doing the right thing.

[Steve Brine]

The figures that the Lord Chancellor gives are shocking and, in many ways, a disgrace to our country. Is not one reason for the figures that there is no through-the-gate system from custody to community? The new resettlement prisons—I am glad that Her Majesty’s prison Winchester is part of the proposals—are part of putting that failed system right.

[Chris Grayling]

We are trying to do the things that experts have told us need to happen. They tell us that we need to support people through the gate and support those who have sentences on the edge of 12 months.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

As I have said, it will be a simple process. The national probation service team will be responsible for risk assessment. They will have a duty to carry out a new assessment when a person’s circumstances change, and it will be the duty of the provider to notify the team of any material change of circumstances. They will be co-located, and when an offender becomes a high-risk offender, they will be taken back under the supervision of the national probation service. This is about people sitting in the same office and working together, just as people work together in any office environment.

[Steve Brine]

We have ascertained that Labour accepts the need to bring in other providers to deal with people who are serving fewer than 12 months. The Secretary of State has read out the relevant legislation; it is there in black and white. The Peterborough pilot was introduced by Labour, and we understand that Labour Members are very proud of it. So what does my right hon. Friend think lies behind the outrage being expressed this afternoon at our proposals to drive down the reoffending rates that are costing our constituents billions of pounds?

[Chris Grayling]

I can only think that it is because the Labour Government could not find a way to do that themselves, or perhaps because Labour has reverted politically to where we all know it belongs and is now ideologically opposed to this kind of approach. It is a party that used to believe that outsourcing part of what we did could make a difference, but it has clearly changed that view now.

It is worth mentioning the creation of resettlement prisons. If we are to deliver rehabilitation that prevents reoffending, it is really important that we have a proper through-the-gate service. My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) mentioned the prison in Winchester, which will be one of the network of 82 resettlement prisons in which people will, whenever possible, spend the last few months of a longer sentence, or the whole of a shorter one. Those prisons will provide a proper through-the-gate service that will also prevent reoffending.

We must remember why we are doing all this. The Opposition want us to wait for years before doing anything; they do not want us to take this approach. I have a different view: I think that we cannot afford not to act now. Every day of every week, innocent people are the victims of crimes committed by offenders who have just left prison without getting any supervision whatever, and with wholly inadequate preparation for life back in society. Every day of every week, innocent people are the victims of crimes committed by offenders who could be turned away from a life of crime if only there were someone there to help them to do that. That is a scandalous situation, but there are ways for us to solve it. This should never have been allowed to happen in the first place, but our reforms will change things for the better.

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

1. What recent progress he has made on his plans for modernisation of the prison estate.

[The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling)]

If I might trespass on the House’s time for a moment, I would like to welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) to his new position and express gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) for her work as a Justice Minister.

We have made significant progress on our plans to modernise the prison estate and reduce operating costs. In September we announced a new 2,000-plus place prison, to be built on the former Firestone site in Wrexham. We have launched a feasibility study on possible changes at the site of the Feltham young offender institution, with a potential enlarged new adult prison and a new youth facility on adjoining sites. We will consult on that as progress develops. We have also announced the closure of 1,400 uneconomic places, which will contribute to our overall plans to reduce prison costs by more than £500 million in this spending review period. However, we remain on track to go into the next election with more adult male prison places than we inherited in 2010.

[Steve Brine]

I thank the Lord Chancellor for that answer, but may I make a plea to him to remember local prisons? He knows that genuine local prisons, such as Her Majesty’s prison—and now the young offender institution—in Winchester, play a central role in the secure estate, but they need investment too, especially in Winchester. The recent closure of prisons in Kingston, Reading and Dorchester is already having an impact on the secure estate in Winchester.

[Chris Grayling]

I pay tribute to the team that works in Winchester. They do a first-rate job for all of us, and Winchester will, of course, continue to play an important part in our work in the Prison Service. We are in the process of finalising plans to change the nature of our prison estate, with the local focus described by my hon. Friend, so that we will have a network of resettlement prisons from where most prisoners will be released into the areas in which they will then live.