Transforming Legal Aid

Steve Brine Excerpts

Thursday 5th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I very much welcome my hon. Friend’s support and his comments, and I am very grateful to him for them. The big problem that Labour Members have is that they were looking forward to an autumn of attacking the Government but we have a sensible set of proposals with which, I hope, most people will agree. That is Labour’s difficulty today.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

I welcome the Lord Chancellor’s statement and thank him for it. His movement on choice after he appeared before the Select Committee in early July was welcome. It was logical to many of us there that changes to the PCT regime would follow. Does he agree that the revised model of tendering will result in some consolidation of smaller firms, as the market inevitably responds—that is not bad thing—ultimately leading to a more stable environment for law firms in the future?

[Chris Grayling]

That has been a central part of what we have agreed with the Law Society; there has been an acceptance from both of us that these changes will lead to consolidation. They will lead to bigger, but not giant, firms, which are more equipped to deal with a tough financial climate but will continue to deliver a quality service. That is what we are looking to achieve.

Criminal Legal Aid Reforms

Steve Brine Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Karl Turner]

In my experience, for what it is worth, my advice to a client was based on the evidence. If that was overwhelming or strong, and if, in my opinion, the defendant needed to plead guilty, they were advised accordingly. I think solicitors and barristers will always act in the best interests of the client.

May I address the caricature that the Government have peddled, which is that all lawyers earn salaries like that of the Prime Minister’s very wealthy brother? It is not true. The vast majority of legal aid lawyers, up and down the country, earn a modest wage; often, they will take home less than a nurse or a teacher. I wonder what information the Government have on that issue, because I think that the Bar Council could provide them with information about average salaries at the Bar, and that the Law Society could assist as well.

A very important point, and perhaps an unintended consequence, is that the proposals will prevent many young people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds, less advantaged backgrounds, and poorer backgrounds from coming into the professions. This is not a plea for the so-called fat cat lawyers, but, as John Cooper, QC, put it:

“This is recognition, before it’s too late, that if the proposals go through we will be complicit in excluding many young people from less advantaged backgrounds from becoming part of what can only be described as the National Health Service of the Law”.

I also want to deal with the misconception that all people seeking legal aid are old lags. I have dealt with that briefly, but the Government seem to suggest that such people do not deserve representation. Of course, there are repeat offenders who are found guilty, or who plead guilty to a further offence, but just because someone has previously been convicted of burglary does not mean—cannot mean, surely—that they are automatically guilty of the further alleged offence. They might not be.

Fundamental to our legal system must be the presumption of innocence. Denying people’s liberty is one of the strongest powers of the state. It is vital, therefore, that that can be done only when a court of law is presented with evidence, for and against, by highly skilled and trained lawyers.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

Fundamental to our system is the issue of choice, which the hon. Gentleman may come on to. He is a former member of the Select Committee on Justice, which I now sit on. The right for someone to choose who represents them goes very much to the heart of our system.

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman would agree that the price-competitive tendering proposals, as originally drafted, would appear to deny that, but as he knows from the Justice Committee’s hearings and the Backbench business debate, the Government have moved on that issue. I wonder what his feeling is on where that movement on choice, which very much holds the PCT proposals together in their original form, leaves us. He should acknowledge that the Government have already moved a little on the issue.

[Karl Turner]

I will address that point later in my remarks.

I am concerned about what seems to be an outdated concept, in the Government’s vision, of a Tesco-style justice system, but I still believe that the defendant is innocent until proven guilty. Surely we should be looking to protect that system. I add that these stereotypical clients are not the only people who seek criminal legal aid. Thompsons Solicitors, in its response to the consultation, made it clear that many who seek legal aid are people such as teachers, nurses and police officers, who are wrongly accused of assault or similar, and who need to clear their names and save their livelihoods.

Legal Aid Reform

Steve Brine Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

I wish to make a few short remarks about the “Transforming Legal Aid” consultation, which has sparked such lively debate in this House and across the profession, to put it mildly. I qualify my comments by making the point that I am a member of the Select Committee on Justice, as is the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra), whom I follow. The Committee is conducting a mini-inquiry into these proposals. Representatives of the profession have been before us already, and we will see the Lord Chancellor on Wednesday next week. So I have to say that I do not recognise some of the knockabout from the Opposition about the Lord Chancellor somehow being absent on this one. Members from across this House will be very welcome to come along when he comes before the Committee—we have never been so popular.

Some claims have certainly been made about these proposals in the past few months, one of which was made at the Committee’s first hearing on the subject, on 11 June: that the proposals will spell the end of the independent judiciary in this country, no less. That is quite a claim, but I do not think it is true and I do not think it helps the debate. Concerns certainly exist about the reduction in the number of those at the Bar if these proposals go ahead—future judges are, of course, drawn from these people. That point has not been aired enough in this debate so far, so perhaps the Minister will touch on it and allay the fears. Another point that has been made is that the effect of the proposals will be a fundamental change to the criminal justice system, and that is certainly true.

Many Members still wish to speak in this debate and I know that they will discuss many of these fundamental changes and what they might mean, so I wish to focus on the issue of choice. It has been repeatedly raised with me by constituents, as it has been raised by other hon. Members who have spoken this afternoon. During the consultation, a practising barrister in my constituency sent me what I thought was a useful case study—and one that I hope will show the human side of this point. Under the current system, he explained, a young man with profound mental health problems was again arrested for having a knife in a public place. My constituent, an experienced solicitor, whom the young man knew and trusted, was called. He had the defendant’s previous psychiatric reports on file and even his psychiatrist’s number in his phone. The defendant was questioned by the police and advice was tendered. A number of appearances in the magistrates court led to the case being committed to Crown court, at which point my constituent was instructed, as he had been before, and updated psychiatric reports were obtained.

Following various pre-trial hearings to sort out reports, a two-day trial was held, at the end of which the young man was acquitted and further psychiatric treatment was ordered by the judge. Happily, according to my constituent, the young man is now on the right medication, and has a diagnosis of Asperger’s. He even has a job for a couple of hours a week. My and my constituent’s concern is that under price competitive tendering, the duty solicitor, who almost certainly would not know the defendant, might well advise a guilty plea, with an alien barrister, either in the magistrates court or at first appearance in the Crown court. My constituent tells me that the fee is the same for a guilty plea as it is for a short trial, so what is the incentive to have a trial?

There is a huge potential conflict of interest for the advocate, says my constituent, with the young man possibly being sent to prison, resulting in devastating consequences for him and the state. I think he makes a powerful point. Putting aside the arguments about a reduction in choice in relation to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 and the European convention provisions on the right to a fair trial, which I understand opponents of the proposals will bring forward, if they are pursued, Ministers must address PCT and the choice issue, so that we do not throw the baby out with the bathwater and lose this fundamental right.

Hon. Members might know that Winchester is the home of the western circuit—or, more precisely, the chambers there have for centuries been the major providers of legal advice and advocacy for the large area they cover. The depth of specialist knowledge available across the circuit is its strength and benefits those whom I and others in the area represent. Many members of the western circuit will recognise the example I just gave and share the concern that many of us have about the future of specialisms.

[Mr Raab]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. The aim of the reforms is to cut the number of firms from 1,600 to 400. On the four to five-year tendering periods, does he share my concern about the countervailing risk that we might see a small number of large firms snuff out the competition, creating a monopoly and leaving no incentive to compete on quality?

[Steve Brine]

I am not sure that that is the aim of the reforms, but it might be one of the consequences. I am concerned that without such competition, at the end of the contract period, a firm would be in an incredibly strong position to say to the Government, “Well, this is what we want to continue”.

PCT is seemingly not that popular, but I wonder whether it has to be the start and end of this conundrum. It might be the future, but perhaps not now and not to this very tight time scale. As we have seen this week, there is no money left. Clearly, savings must be found—we are told £220 million—so what is to be done? My right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor has rightly said that we have one of the best legal professions in the world, and he is dead right that in a time of major financial challenge, the legal sector cannot be excluded from the Government’s commitment to getting better value for our constituents’ money. I asked the chairman of the Criminal Bar Association at a Select Committee evidence session whether he took at face value the Secretary of State’s assertions that we needed to make significant savings, and the response was this:

“There is at least £100 million that can be saved by plugging the gaps in the system. As we have also pointed out, if he wants real savings to the taxpayer and listens to the proposals that we have put forward, he can have himself £2 billion for a legal aid budget. The real sadness, for us, is that we are just not being listened to.”

I disagree with that. They are being listened to. The very fact that this debate is happening on the Floor of the House is proof of that. I suggest that the Criminal Bar Association, the Bar Council and others get these proposals into my right hon. Friend’s hands and give him some options.

I do not accept that this country faces a choice between well-funded public services that we cannot afford and terrible public services that we can. We need sustainable public services that we can afford in the long term, and that is as true in legal aid as anywhere else. It is true that we have one of the best legal professions in the world—a lot of it resides in my part of the world—and I want to see it live within its means. It is open to reform, but we might need to think, slow down, find initial savings and then reform the system in a way that leads to reliable savings in the long term. I still think that the Government and the profession can jump together on this one, if they slow down and talk. I remain ever the optimist that we can do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

It is a disgrace that the Secretary of State is not here, but hon. Members should count themselves lucky that there is a Minister here at all, because in yesterday’s Westminster Hall debate on legal aid in Wales, secured by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), we had a Whip replying, rather than a Justice Minister.

I hope that today the Minister will be able to respond to two very important points. One concerns a pilot. It seems that the idea of firms having to tender will be rolled out across the whole country without even first trying a simple pilot. A pilot scheme is absolutely essential. The other issue is the time scale. The way the proposals are being brought forward is so rushed.

[Steve Brine]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Nia Griffith]

I will not, because of the time available.

There seems to be absolutely no time to consider the proposals, certainly for small firms. If they are to contemplate trying to work together, they will need far more time to put together their tender and fully understand how it would work.

I come from the Dyfed Powys area, which is the largest police force area in England and Wales. It takes three and a half hours, for those who know the roads well, to drive from Llanelli to Machynlleth. The idea that only four firms could provide for that vast rural area is complete nonsense. Many local solicitors will be unable to participate and will effectively lose all the business. That means the clients will be unable to access the justice they need, never mind access to specialised areas or in the Welsh language. Even one of the larger firms in the area, which is obviously very small by national standards, has said that it cannot see itself tendering through the process. It is absolutely essential that clients have a choice. As many Conservative Members have pointed out, it is quite ironic that a Conservative Government are proposing to eliminate choice. Many clients have problematic backgrounds. They want to go to somebody they know who may also know their family, their circumstances and the community they come from.

We hear about all the stereotypes of clients who need legal aid, but Thompsons Solicitors has pointed out that it will often be used by someone to clear their name, such as a paramedic or teaching assistant who has been wrongly accused of assault or suchlike. My hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) made an extremely compelling case for the use of legal aid not only for judicial review but for the preparations leading up to it. JR is vital in holding our public services to account and avoiding many other complications for the clients involved further down the line.

The real threat that these proposals pose to justice is that people may be tempted to plead guilty rather than innocent. That is extremely worrying; it really is a recipe for miscarriages of justice. As for people trying to represent themselves, we should think about how that will clog up our courts, which will be completely overwhelmed. With the current staffing levels in courts, people already have difficulties in trying to get information, and they will not be able to cope.

Absolutely fundamental in all this is the fact that there is no redress for the ordinary person. We have seen this time and again with this Government, whether it is in trying to damage the employment tribunal system or trying to drive down wages in the context of rising prices. Every which way we look, it is the poor and the vulnerable who suffer. I very much hope that the Government will look again at these proposals.

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

5. What plans he has to assist ex-offenders into employment.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

8. What plans he has to assist ex-offenders into employment.

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

12. What plans he has to assist ex-offenders into employment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeremy Wright]

We most certainly do seek to deport foreign national offenders, and my hon. Friend will be encouraged to learn that 4,500 or so were deported during the last year for which we have figures. However, we also think it important to remove such offenders while they are still serving their sentences if that is possible, which is why we seek to negotiate compulsory prisoner transfer agreements such as the one that we signed with Albania in January. We are working towards a similar arrangement with Nigeria. We want offenders to leave our shores, during the currency of their sentences if possible but otherwise immediately thereafter, because the right place for foreign criminals is not in our country but back in their own.

[Steve Brine]

What involvement does the Minister expect the voluntary and community sector to have, and how does he expect it to dovetail with the Work programme in helping ex-offenders to find stable jobs? More importantly, how does he expect it to work for the purpose of resettlement, which, as we know and as the Select Committee said in its report, plays a major role in diverting people from reoffending?

[Jeremy Wright]

As my hon. Friend says, and as the Select Committee has made clear, resettlement is hugely important. We agree that the voluntary and community sector can play a major role, and we think it important for that role to begin while offenders are still serving the custodial part of their sentences. The reforms that we have in mind will enable those who are dealing with rehabilitation to make contact with offenders early, and to see them through the prison gates and out into the community. One of the main ways in which we expect them to help offenders to go straight and stay straight is by finding jobs for them to do, for, as we know, keeping a job is one of the best ways of keeping out of crime.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The question is whether the Bill should be the vehicle for making those changes, but I very much respect his views.

I represent the beautiful, very diverse constituency of Bournemouth East. It has a substantial elderly population—some Members of Parliament have chosen to call Bournemouth “God’s waiting room”—as well as a vibrant town centre with a huge gay population. It is also a university town. So it has an elderly population and a young generation, as well as a large gay community. I have talked to members of the gay community about the Bill. I have also made an effort to speak to religious groups, individuals and organisations across the town, not only about pensions but about matters such as gender recognition. We debated those matters in schools as well. I have to say that I heard no significant call for these proposals generally, and certainly not for the provision in amendment 15, tabled by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). There were no planned demonstrations or pent-up anger because the issues had not been addressed.

Many people in the gay community like the general proposals in the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) has just pointed out, certain aspects in life need to be corrected, and this debate has been helpful in that regard. In general terms, however, most of the people I spoke to said, “Go away and focus on the economy.” They suggested that this was an important issue, but wondered why we were dealing with it right now.

The Bill was not mentioned in any Queen’s Speech, and I believe that the Government could have helped themselves by following the normal protocol of announcing that the measures would be introduced in a particular legislative period. Given that backdrop, I take my hat off to the Secretary of State and her Ministers for their stamina in pursuing the amendments they have tabled. They must have known from the start how controversial the amendments and the Bill as a whole would be. I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s assurances, especially on Government amendment 25.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend, as I always do. The Bill as a whole has certainly been controversial—it has divided the parties and the country—but does he agree that amendment 49, tabled by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), is not controversial and should attract widespread support across the House and outside in the country? It represents a bit of unfinished business from the Civil Partnerships Act 2004.

[Mr Ellwood]

I understand what my hon. Friend says, but I step back and wonder whether all these amendments are required right now and whether this is where society wants to go right now. Many Members have been forced to make a decision, and there is naturally a tendency to want to support the Bill and not to view it as out of place. My question is why these issues are being brought to our attention at this moment in time. As I say, I did not see the deluge of calls for this measure, although the trajectory of society moving forward means that this is very much how we would anticipate the Bill and its amendments.

I am pleased that we have this opportunity to conduct this debate, which has prompted us to think about the wider issues of the role, purpose and values of marriage in our society. We are debating amendments relating to gender recognition and so forth, which has educated us about the historic role of the state in respect of the Church.

The Bible is full of commands that are unknown or ignored by many Christians today. That reflects how society is very much moving forward. Wives used to be subject to their husbands; children arguing with their parents used to be taken out and stoned to death; women used to have to cover their heads in church. Those things are either unknown by Christians today or simply ignored because they have no place in modern society. The Church has changed its views over the years—indeed, the Bill has changed as we have debated it over these last few months.

The Church remains divided on many subjects: the burning of witches, abortion, contraception, the status of illegitimate children and so forth. On a wider perspective, it is the role of Parliament to challenge the Church on these issues and through the Bill and amendments, as we did on the grander issues in the past. Slavery was indeed defended by many bishops because of the Bible; the Old Testament regulated for slavery; divorce was clearly condemned by Jesus in the Gospels, and those who had divorced were not permitted to remarry. In the Church of England, marriage was “Till death us do part”; it was long thought to be lifelong and indissoluble, yet divorce was formally introduced in this place in 1857.

What, then, are my thoughts on this Bill? I am absolutely supportive of the concept, but, like many of the Government amendments, it is ahead of its time. That puts many of us in an awkward position. Do we support the Government amendments and the Bill, which I believe to be somewhat messy and not well handled, albeit on a subject to which I do not object. Should I vote against the Bill and the amendments for which many of my constituents have called? A significant number of them were moved enough to call me to make sure that I did not support specific amendments or indeed the Bill as a whole. Then there is the final option, which is to abstain on the amendments and the Bill, thus honouring many of the calls not to support the Bill’s proposals while ensuring that my vote is honest to myself.

I shall conclude because I know others wish to participate in this important Report debate. I hope I shall not digress too far from the subject matter by mentioning that the FTSE 100 yesterday recorded its highest value in 24 years; despite being a significant economic indicator, it got no mention in this place. I hope that after Third Reading later today, we can back to considering the economy. The subject of gay marriage is significant and should be brought into law, but I remain to be convinced that it should be a priority for now. Those who will benefit from the change in the law are calling for the change now.

Police Cautions (Young People)

Steve Brine Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2013 Westminster Hall

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

You will be happy to know that I have prepared for this debate, Mr Gray. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time and I am pleased to have secured the debate. I am still wearing a black tie after the events of this morning, but I think that this debate involves good news. I look forward to the Minister’s winding-up speech. The debate provides an opportunity for me to discuss an issue that can blight the lives of many hard-working young people in our constituencies and seek clarification from the Minister on recent developments in Government policy.

Police cautions can have a detrimental impact on the lives and employment prospects of young people. An e-mail from one of my constituents led me to initiate the debate, and I know that many other Members have received similar correspondence. My constituent, who is now in her final year at university, received a police caution in early 2007, when she was 15 years old, for a minor shoplifting offence while part of a dominant group of girls. Her e-mail explained to me that the huge peer pressure that she felt so as to be accepted as part of that group and coercion by her then friends were key reasons for her behaviour, which she admits was poor. I am sure that many of us have some sympathy with that.

Looking back, my constituent admits that she feels utterly embarrassed by and ashamed of her actions, which were completely unrepresentative of her character. She has not acted similarly before or since. She is not a dishonest person—I have seen several character references from employers and former teachers that she has provided to back that up—and in the years since the offence she has not kept in contact with any of the people involved and has gone on to achieve success in her exams and at university.

My constituent’s ambition is to pursue a career in law, and her academic success and involvement in voluntary and extracurricular activities make such a career possible, but that dream has been jeopardised by the police caution that she received more than six years ago. The Solicitors Regulation Authority has informed her that it is more likely than not that her application will be rejected due to her caution. She is understandably devastated that she may not be able to pursue her chosen career.

As the Minister will be aware, the Justice Committee, of which I am a member—I am pleased to see our Chairman, the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), here today—published a wide-ranging report on youth justice on 14 March. Among our many recommendations, one is particularly relevant to this debate. Paragraph 21 of the conclusions and recommendations reads:

“We support the reduction in rehabilitation periods introduced via the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act, which means that many young offenders’ convictions will become spent sooner. We also agree with the Minister that employers, as well as schools, colleges and universities, should consider taking young people on despite their previous offences, as many do. Nevertheless, while we recognise that for very serious offending, disclosure of convictions will continue to be in the public interest, we consider there is potential to go further in relation to more minor convictions. We therefore recommend that, in addition to keeping the youth rehabilitation periods under review, the Government considers legislating to erase out-of-court disposals and convictions from the records of very early, minor and non-persistent offenders at the age of 18, so that they cannot be disclosed to employers under the Exceptions Order to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.”

Since 2008, more than 1 million child arrests have been made in England and Wales, about one third of which resulted in a police caution. Lest I am misunderstood —heaven forbid—by certain sections of the press or even the House, I want to be clear that I believe young people should be punished according to the rule of law, like anybody else, when they do wrong. How we respond to often low-level bad behaviour by youngsters, however, has the potential to blight the rest of their lives by further alienating them from society. Our country cannot afford and would not be right to put young people, in effect, on the scrap heap before they had ever had a chance. Those young people need support, not perpetual criminalisation, and this change would provide that.

The Justice Committee report’s recommendation aims to improve the prospects of young people who have received police cautions for minor offences and have not reoffended by wiping their records, thereby preventing cautions from being disclosed to certain potential employers during criminal record checks.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the problem can be hugely discriminatory against youngsters in inner cities, many of whom receive cautions at an early age, blighting their lives? We are in danger of creating a perpetual underclass of people who can never escape due to minor offences for which Parliament never legislated such a disproportionate penalty.

[Steve Brine]

I very much agree. We are often talking about people who come from disadvantaged backgrounds. As a country, we are crazy to hold them down, as we do in some cases. They need support, not perpetual criminalisation.

Although not entirely down to the actions of our Committee—it would have been a swift move by the Minister if so—I am pleased that the Government plan to lay before Parliament a statutory instrument to amend the exceptions to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, so that some spent convictions and cautions do not have to be disclosed and cannot be taken into account in employment decisions. Nevertheless, that development still leaves us with several questions.

On 29 January this year, the Court of Appeal ruled that the system of Criminal Records Bureau checks constituted a breach of article 8 of the European convention on human rights and of the Human Rights Act 1998, and that requiring the disclosure of all convictions and cautions relating to recordable offences is disproportionate to the aim of protecting children and vulnerable adults. Why, therefore, did the Government feel the need to seek leave to appeal to the Supreme Court?

The statutory instrument that the Government will lay before Parliament will help my constituent and many others, so I welcome it. It is proposed that cautions and equivalents administered to a young offender will not be subject to disclosure after two years, and that a conviction received as a young offender resulting in a non-custodial sentence will not be subject to disclosure after five and a half years. May I press the Minister, however, to implement the measure as quickly as possible? How long will it be before the order is laid before the House? Will he confirm that any changes will be applied retrospectively?

Finally, my constituent highlighted two other important issues, which concern other Members as well. First, on the role of local constabularies in removing or retaining a caution on a young person’s record, my constituent contacted Hampshire constabulary in the hope that it might be able to remove the caution from her record, but she was told that nothing could be done in that regard. However, in certain circumstances, do not chief constables have the discretion to prevent the disclosure of cautions? Where does the truth lie?

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate and the work that he does on these issues. He is talking about certain constabularies approaching the matter in certain ways. I understand that the Government have piloted initiatives to examine dealing with cautions in a different way, as he has discussed. Has he made any assessment of how effective the pilot scheme has been so far?

[Steve Brine]

No, is the honest answer, but I am aware of the pilot, so perhaps the Minister will be kind enough to refer to it. I am grateful for that point, made by a fellow member of the Justice Committee.

Other people want to get in to speak and we want to give the Minister time to respond, so I shall draw to a close. To make the second point, there is no requirement to consent to receiving a police caution for young people. Many of them do not appreciate the impact that a criminal record will have on their life and career prospects, which means that they can be burdened with a record without fully understanding the consequences. Can more be done, therefore, to ensure that young people are aware of the consequences of receiving a caution, which is more than just a ticking off or what used to be a clip around the ear?

In summary, many of the young people who receive cautions immediately regret their actions, but they soon discover that the consequences severely jeopardise their job prospects and opportunities. Many of those youngsters come from underprivileged and unstable backgrounds, so is it not counter-productive to criminalise them further and to destroy what opportunities they might have in our society?

I welcome the steps that the Government are taking to prevent disclosure of old and minor offences to potential employers. I hope that the reforms make a significant difference to the life of many constituents, such as mine and many others.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

I would be interested to know whether my hon. Friend has evidence that cautions are used to improve clear-up figures. The answer to his general point is that, yes, I agree that the repetitive use of cautions may damage confidence in the system. One reason why we are looking at the whole system of cautions is precisely to avoid such damage to confidence.

A youth caution may be given for any offence that the young offender admits when there is sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction but it is not in the public interest to prosecute. The flexibility provided by the youth caution allows the police greater discretion to offer a disposal that is appropriate to the circumstances of the offence and offender, rather than being arbitrarily determined by previous disposals or convictions.

We have retained in the youth caution the critical elements of assessment and intervention inherent in the final warning scheme. The youth offending team will be obliged to assess and, unless considered inappropriate, to put a rehabilitation programme in place when a young person has received a second or subsequent youth caution. That reflects the current threshold of obligatory assessment following a warning and is designed to prevent a return to precisely the repeat cautioning to which my hon. Friend referred. Unlike reprimands and warnings, the youth caution does not have a fixed limit on the number that may be administered, and it may be used if a young person has previously been convicted. That allows the police to use discretion, in consultation with the youth offending team, and to avoid an unnecessary court process if that is not merited.

Introducing a flexible youth caution that can be used more than once should help young people when seeking future gainful employment despite a minor misdemeanour that is causing concern. The youth caution becomes spent immediately, so there is no requirement for the young person to disclose that they have received one, unless they are seeking employment in an occupation listed in the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975, such as working with children or other vulnerable people.

The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 revised the youth conditional caution. We reduced unnecessary bureaucracy by giving the police power to authorise youth conditional cautions without the need to seek the authorisation of a prosecutor. The police can now offer a youth conditional caution with input from a youth offending team as at present but without the need for agreement from the Crown Prosecution Service. The youth offending team’s role is now statutory to provide a check on the appropriateness of the disposal and will also allow the YOT to apply for a parenting order if necessary.

Conditional cautions require offenders to take responsibility for their actions, including agreement to conditions that require them to put things right or to seek help for their behaviour. It is important to recognise the role of the victim and to ensure that they have proper redress through such an out-of-court disposal. Since 8 April, the revised youth conditional caution has been available to all 10 to 17-year-olds throughout England and Wales. The youth conditional caution has a three-month rehabilitation period to allow for the conditions to be completed, but offers similar benefits to the youth caution in becoming spent rapidly and therefore not subject to disclosure for most purposes.

The third change to that sort of disposal in the 2012 Act was to abolish penalty notices for disorder for 10 to 17-year-olds. Penalty notices can be an effective deterrent and provide resolution of offences for adult offenders, but we believe they are less effective for young people. The principal aim of the youth justice system is to prevent offending by young people. For that age group, we believe it is more effective to use out-of-court disposals involving assessment and intervention by the local youth offending team than fixed penalties.

Other legislation that is centrally important to the matters that the debate gives rise to is the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, which has an important role in helping those who have a criminal conviction but have put criminality behind them. From the tone of the debate, it is clear that many hon. Members believe that it is important to provide individuals with the opportunity to leave behind mistakes that they made when they were young. Minor offending behaviour committed when the offender was immature should not blight their prospects. That is recognised in the fact that rehabilitation periods are generally shorter for under-eights than for adults. Most crime committed by young people is relatively minor and often results in the out-of-court disposals or fines that I am talking about. A significant proportion of the population have had a conviction at some point in their lives, but few of them pose a serious risk of harm to the public. I am sure that we all agree that it is in society’s interest that ex-offenders are given the chance to reintegrate into their communities and lead law-abiding lives.

My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester referred to a recent Court of Appeal judgment that found that both the current exceptions order to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 and part V of the Police Act 1997 are unlawful. That is because they provide for blanket disclosure of all spent convictions and cautions regardless of how old or minor they may be. In response to that judgment—my hon. Friend raised this point specifically —we are amending the exceptions order. We are proposing that certain spent disposals will no longer be subject to disclosure under that order after a specified period, which will be shorter for young offenders than for adults.

Public protection and safeguarding obviously remain primary concerns, and for that reason disposals for specified sexual and violent offences and other offences relevant to safeguarding will always be subject to standard or enhanced disclosure. Any offence resulting in a custodial sentence will continue to be subject to disclosure. Those measures are necessary to maintain public protection, and I suspect that there is agreement on that on both sides of the Chamber.

For other offences, cautions and minor convictions will no longer be subject to disclosure, nor will they be able to be taken into account by an employer after a certain period. Cautions and equivalents administered to a young offender for a non-specified offence will no longer be subject to disclosure under the exceptions order after two years. Secondary legislation containing those provisions has been laid before Parliament and will be subject to the affirmative process. My hon. Friend wanted a detailed timetable, but he has been here long enough to know that such business management goes on behind closed doors.

[Steve Brine]

I have been here a while now and I cannot wait to be on another Committee. The Minister may be coming to this, but will he refer to retrospection of the order?

[Damian Green]

The changes to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 will have retrospective effect. I will come to the case of my hon. Friend’s constituent, but I can give him that general reassurance.

Employers have a key role in how criminal record information is treated, and they should have a fair and objective policy on the recruitment of ex-offenders. It is important that they should consider the circumstances and relevance of a spent, or unspent, conviction where that is disclosed. That should include taking into account the age of the person at the time, the disposal received and what the person has done in the meantime. Of course, we encourage employers to adopt that fair approach, which is critical in assisting ex-offenders in obtaining gainful employment and, therefore, helping their rehabilitation. It ought to go without saying—but it is worth mentioning—that a minor youthful indiscretion should clearly not be a barrier to employment in later life.

Turning to my hon. Friend’s constituent, I understand that she received a caution for theft aged 15 but now wishes to pursue a career as a lawyer. That is an occupation listed on the exceptions order and therefore disclosure of spent cautions and convictions can be requested and an employer can take them into account. As he said, she has been advised that her caution means that she may not be accepted to practise law. However, I am pleased to say that, from his description of the case, it appears that she will benefit from our proposed amendment to the exceptions order. As I have said, under the proposals, a caution received as a young person for a non-specified offence, which includes theft, will no longer be subject to disclosure, nor will an employer be able to take it into account, after a period of two years. I should be clear that the caution will nevertheless remain on the record, but the changes to the exceptions order will specifically address his constituent’s case. Clearly, there are circumstances in which the disclosure of all cautions and convictions may still be required, such as in subsequent court proceedings.

Returning to the use of out-of-court disposals in general, we know that it is important to consider the need to provide assurance to the public that they are being used appropriately and proportionately. We very much recognise the concern of the public and that expressed in the recent Justice Committee report about the proper use of out-of-court disposals. The Chairman of the Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), is here, and I thank the Committee for contributing to a thought process that has led to our review of simple cautions. The Ministry of Justice, the Home Office and the Attorney-General’s office will be working closely with the police and the Crown Prosecution Service, as well as taking the views of practitioners across the criminal justice system.

The review is considering a number of issues: the existing guidance and practice relating to the use of simple cautions; whether there are some offence types for which the use of simply cautions is generally inappropriate—and if so, what procedures we should adopt; the reasons why multiple cautions have been given to some criminals; the difference in the use of cautions by different police forces and whether increased scrutiny is needed to ensure that they are used consistently; and the impact on individuals of accepting a caution, including any potential impact on future employment. I take the point that was raised by a couple of hon. Members in the debate on whether the use of such disposals may have a disproportionate impact on different communities.

I should make it clear that, although the review into cautions is focused on adult simple cautioning, it will consider aspects of youth cautioning and adult conditional cautioning, where there is good reason to do so. The Justice Committee expressed concern about the provision of oversight and scrutiny of how the police are using out-of-court disposals, so I hope that the various Committee members who are here at the moment will welcome our commitment to look into the matter further.

I make it clear that the Government believe that out-of-court disposals have an important part to play in the youth justice system, because they can provide a quick and effective resolution to a crime for the victim, which a court case might not. My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester asked a specific question about the Government seeking leave to appeal to the Supreme Court. We consider that the terms of the judgment are simply too broad, but, as I have mentioned, the orders that we laid before Parliament on 26 March can be taken as our response to the judgment, and the orders will come into force when they are approved by the House.

More generally, the provisions in the LASPO Act that came into effect earlier this month have significantly simplified the youth out-of-court disposals framework, by providing clearer and simpler decision-making for practitioners, a greater understanding for the public of how the disposals fit together and the circumstances in which they are used—

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State explained, we completely agree with my hon. Friend’s analysis that the current system is not good enough. Reoffending rates have been broadly flat for the last 10 years, despite an enormous increase in public spending in that area. We want to introduce payment by results, new ideas, new people and new providers not just so that more people are rehabilitated after they leave prison, but so that the rehabilitation system is better and more targeted.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

5. What plans he has to prevent young people from entering the criminal justice system.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)]

Preventing young people from entering the criminal justice system in the first place is vital, and we have made considerable progress in reducing the number of first-time entrants to the system. Police and crime commissioners will provide strong local leadership in preventing and reducing crime and reoffending and addressing community safety needs. Youth offending teams also play a key role, as do cross-Government initiatives such as the troubled families initiative, the liaison and diversion programme and the ending gangs and youth violence programme.

[Steve Brine]

The aforementioned “Transforming Youth Custody” Green Paper brings together the Justice Secretary and the Education Secretary, which rightly recognises that it is not just criminal justice issues that are involved. Does the Minister plan to deepen the work with the Department for Education to reach pre-primary and primary schools following the lead of, for example, Hampshire county council, which has just employed an army of speech and language therapists to work with children with identified communication needs to stop the spiral of poor behaviour starting in the first place.

[Jeremy Wright]

Yes, and what my hon. Friend says about the importance of early intervention is entirely right. I take this opportunity to thank him and his colleagues on the Select Committee on Justice for the report that they produced last week. It was extremely welcome and we will look at it in detail and respond in due course. What he says about early intervention is important, and we will certainly work with colleagues across Government to ensure that that continues.

Transforming Rehabilitation

Steve Brine Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), who has responsibility for women in prisons, and I are looking at the issue. There are different challenges for adult males, young people and women in prisons, and we need to be careful and ensure that we approach each of those groups with an appropriate understanding of the different circumstances in which they find themselves.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

The Justice Secretary has rightly said that the failure to divert people away from crime is having a wide impact and he has mentioned life management. Will he confirm that he recognises that the transformative impact that we could have includes focusing on early years work at primary school, and even before that, with professionals such as speech and language therapists and, probably even more importantly, good parenting specialists?

[Chris Grayling]

I absolutely accept that. That is why I said that I see meeting the social challenge we face as a jigsaw puzzle. Different pieces, whether they be intervention to work with troubled families, health visitors in the home, guidance for young lone parents or helping offenders who are long-term unemployed, are all part of a broad-ranging challenge that I believe will, as time goes by, deliver real change in our society.

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 13th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Grant]

The Government are committed to finding ways of tackling fraudulent whiplash claims. We are about to consult on increasing the small claims threshold for personal injury claims arising from road traffic accidents from £1,000 to £5,000. We are also about to consult on the creation of independent medical panels, which could improve diagnosis, transparency, consistency and identification in respect of exaggerated injuries.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

18. What plans he has to reduce the number of young people within the criminal justice system.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green)]

Reducing the number of young people in the criminal justice system continues to be a priority for this Government, and a range of work is going on to prevent youth offending. Youth offending teams play a key role, and cross-Government initiatives such as the troubled families programme, the liaison and diversion programme and the ending gang and youth violence programme demonstrate a co-ordinated approach to this issue.

[Steve Brine]

The Minister will know that members of the Justice Committee were told on a recent visit to YOI Hindley that breaches frequently occur when young people are released from custody and return to their community, from which they are often excluded by order of the court. That, of course, negatively hits reoffending figures, and the same circle continues to be drawn. Will the Minister work with colleagues across Government to make sure that young offenders leaving the secure estate have far better resettlement plans, as that is one sure-fire way to reduce reoffending?

[Damian Green]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I look forward to receiving the Select Committee report on this matter, which we are expecting shortly. I am happy to assure my hon. Friend that we are working not only with other Departments, including the Department for Communities and Local Government, but with the Youth Justice Board to ensure that young people have access to suitable accommodation on release from custody. The YJB is also working to improve resettlement on release from custody by encouraging local services to work more collaboratively to ensure that young people have suitable accommodation, which is an essential step in stopping them reoffending.

Oral Answers to Questions

Steve Brine Excerpts

Tuesday 18th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point. When I took over as Secretary of State, I made a decision to take two weeks in which to get around the task and not make decisions about anything. That means that the Department will not announce the outcome of the tendering process until after the conference recess, but it is better for a new set of Ministers to ensure that they know what they are talking about before they act.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

May I warmly and genuinely welcome the new Secretary of State to his post—unlike some Opposition Members—and may I give him a heads up to keep a beady eye out later this year for the report into youth justice by the Justice Committee of which I am a member? I encourage him to look seriously at any credible ideas that seek to divert young people from the criminal justice system in the first place.

[Chris Grayling]

I assure my hon. Friend that I will do that. I do not believe that any ministerial team or Department has a monopoly of wisdom, and we will look for best practice and good ideas that will help us to deliver a better level of support to offenders so that they do not come back and reoffend. I particularly look forward to working with members of the Justice Committee. They will no doubt scrutinise our actions intensely, and I hope that we can have a constructive relationship.