Oral Answers to Questions
Stephen Pound Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr Robathan
The hon. Lady, for whom I have a great respect, has raised this matter with me before. What I would say about both public agencies is, first, they are not our responsibility: the DVA is, of course, the responsibility of the Department for Transport; and HMRC is the responsibility of HMRC. However, I would also say that we need to see in Northern Ireland and elsewhere—this refers to the last question—
Mr Robathan
It is the DVA in Northern Ireland.
In relation to the last question, those of us in the rest of the United Kingdom, for instance, register our vehicles online; I certainly do and I guess most other Members of the House do. People need to be able to do that in Northern Ireland as well. Changing working practices means that there will be changes in employment. We do not want to see anybody out of work, but we do need changes in working practices.
Mr Robathan
As I have said, this is a devolved matter, but I am delighted to say that there are high-tech and excellent jobs coming forward from companies like Bombardier and Thales which will have apprenticeships, which we applaud.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will be aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis) recently visited the Secret Garden project, which employs young people with learning disabilities on the Hillsborough estate. They face redundancy. Will the Secretary of State reconsider her decision not to compensate the charity for the £400,000 investment it made in improving the site, and ask Historic Royal Palaces to consider retaining its involvement?
Mr Robathan
We all, of course, applaud any work with people with learning disabilities. However, that does not mean that this is the best way in which people can be served by a charity in Hillsborough, which would diminish the opportunity for Historic Royal Palaces to look after Hillsborough castle. I question the figure of £400,000 and think we should go back and look at the accounts more carefully.
Oral Answers to Questions
Stephen Pound Excerpts(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Robathan
Officials are always discussing things with the Treasury, Indeed, an excellent young man who works for us has just come from the Treasury to increase liaison.
Northern Ireland cannot be exempt from that which is affecting the rest of the United Kingdom. The Belfast Telegraph has said that the Northern Irish cannot pretend that they can
“have it both ways; that we can continue to benefit from the Treasury—we get back more than we raise in taxes—while people in other parts of the UK suffer from the reforms… we cannot expect that situation to continue indefinitely.”
I think that the hon. Gentleman, who is a serious and grown-up politician, will realise that as well.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
I am relieved, as the whole House will be, that a “young man” is currently striving to bring light to this area. We wish him well.
In May 2010 the Conservative party in Northern Ireland, then sailing under the flag of the Ulster Conservatives and Unionists—New Force, or UCUNF, was comprehensively rejected by the voters. In the light of that, how can the Minister justify the continuing distress caused by the rolling threat of the imposition of a £5 million fine on the Northern Ireland Executive, and will he tell us when, this month, the sanction will commence?
Mr Robathan
If the hon. Gentleman wants to go back to May 2010, I think he might note that the good people of England comprehensively rejected the Labour party and all its works at that time, which I think was pretty sensible of them.
As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are looking after the interests of everyone in the United Kingdom. For instance, 1.6 million private sector jobs have been created since 2010, including jobs in Northern Ireland. [Interruption.] As has been explained to the Northern Ireland Executive, the sanction on welfare has not yet been imposed because the Treasury cannot impose it unilaterally. But might I say that the First Minister—
Oral Answers to Questions
Stephen Pound Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
I completely agree, and I think that my hon. Friend puts it very well when he says that paramilitary groups that come off their ceasefire are betraying the communities they purport to represent. My understanding is that, at the moment, no paramilitary organisations have come off their ceasefire, although I am, of course, well aware of the concerns felt about individual members of the Ulster Volunteer Force who are involved in criminality in east Belfast. The police are taking action to counter that.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
Small business Saturday is important throughout the whole of the United Kingdom, but it is especially important in Northern Ireland. Last Friday, business people in Belfast and in Comber told me of their concerns and fears that the planned protests this Saturday will overshadow all the good work of small business Saturday. Will the Secretary of State assure the House that the PSNI will receive the resources and assistance it needs to ensure that positive images are not drowned out by chaotic cacophony from the streets?
Mrs Villiers
The hon. Gentleman puts his point well. We are entirely supportive of the efforts that the police will make to police the protest. I urge everyone involved to ensure that their protest is not only peaceful but entirely lawful and complies with the decision of the Parades Commission. I also call on them to think again about whether this is a wise thing to do. Although it will be disruptive, Belfast will be open for business. Many people will be out in the city centre doing their Christmas shopping despite the protest disruption.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Stephen Pound Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Robathan
I had forgotten what a vexed issue donations are—perhaps I should have remembered—whether from Michael Brown or one or two Labour donors. I can name them if the House wants. Indeed, we have had the odd one in our own party.
Mr Robathan
Funnily enough, his name crossed my mind, but let us go on to Lord Levy. Did he not give a lot of money?
Stephen Pound
I reiterate the comments made by the Minister of State about the good spirit in which the debate has been conducted. We have been considering matters of great moment—matters of state, matters of considerable importance, but it has been done overall, I hope, in a good and positive atmosphere.
May I trespass upon your good nature, which is legendary, Mr Deputy Speaker, by adding my own tribute to the late Eddie McGrady? When I attended his funeral in Downpatrick last Thursday, as I went up past McGrady’s estate agents, turned round at McGrady’s accountants, arrived at the cathedral to meet Father Fergal McGrady, son of Malachy McGrady, it occurred to me that possibly there was somebody in Downpatrick who was not a McGrady, but I did not find them. I was privileged to sit with Arlene Foster, who represented the DUP very well. Between the Secretary of State and Arlene Foster was none other than the present hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), who is not, as I know it, a McGrady, though she was considered and referred to as a protégée of the great McGrady.
May I, once more trespassing on your legendary good nature and good will, Mr Deputy Speaker, add my sympathies to the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) for the occurrence that took place over the weekend, which she has typically and characteristically responded to with enormous courage? She is here tonight to support what may be Government amendment 1, but is in fact the hon. Lady’s amendment 1. She has done that extremely well and successfully. For somebody who considered the matter in a Statutory Instrument Committee, to see it come to fruition on the Floor of the House is a great tribute not just to the good sense and good will of the House, but particularly to the driving force of the hon. Lady.
We heard from the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson). He could have spoken more—I recommend to any Member the Committee’s full report on the draft Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. It should not be forgotten that a great deal of the business that is affected by this legislation has not been discussed on the Floor of the House tonight and has not been amended. Although the expression “a bits and pieces Bill” may seem a trifle crude, the Bill is a glorious melange, a coming together of so many different aspects, all overseen with a golden thread of positivity.
Let us not forget that the Bill deals with political donations, dual mandates, the position of the Justice Minister, electoral registration, equality duties and even the regulation of biometric data. We have considered so many of these—the fixed terms, the length of the current Assembly term—and we have arrived at the end with, I like to think, a strong degree of consensus, which is again a tribute to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, its present Chairman and its members, who I see are well represented in the House tonight.
On the first group of amendments, new clauses 1 and 2, we heard from the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). I have immense sympathy with the points that he makes. The hardest task that any of us who is involved even peripherally with the affairs of Northern Ireland must face is the legacy issue—the issue of dealing with the past. It overhangs everything we do. All our deliberations must be seen in that context. Just to listen to some of the names and some of the atrocities that the hon. Gentleman mentioned reminded us—those of us who needed reminding, and I rather doubt that any of us do need reminding—that we will always have to be aware of the full horror, the monstrosity of the past, which lurks over our shoulder at all times.
However, tonight we have heard a little bit of good news which points us in the direction of consensus. The hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), as ever, spoke from the heart and spoke with great emotion. None of us in the House could ever have anything less than utter respect, regard and understanding of the pain and the agony that he and his family and many members of his community have suffered, yet we are here today in a democratic House, undertaking democratic legislation to make life better for a group of people who have not been well served in the past.
If there is one thing that we must recognise as binding together everything that we have done tonight, it is, as the Minister said, that the Bill is an indication of progression. We are moving forward into a safer, more inclusive and shared future. It may seem that much of the content of Bills is minutiae—a minor matter. There is nothing of minor matter in the politics of Northern Ireland. Every single aspect of the Bill is crucial and has great significance beyond this House. I like to think that what has emerged here this evening is at the very least a signpost on the way to a better and a shared future. All Members of the House should take some credit for that achievement here tonight.
There is important Back-Bench business to be taken. My natural loquacity will be limited, if not choked, on this occasion. I would like to say more and there is probably more to be said, but I shall end by saying that the House has done Parliament, democracy and above all the people of Northern Ireland a great service tonight. I am proud to be a Member of the House that agreed this Bill this evening.
Oral Answers to Questions
Stephen Pound Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Mrs Villiers
The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. The investment conference that the Prime Minister attended last week was incredibly successful. There was huge interest from current investors in expanding, and from new investors in setting up business, in Northern Ireland, which is a great place to do business. Several investors at the Belfast conference were interested in the whole of Northern Ireland, and we will do our best to ensure that the benefits are spread throughout Northern Ireland, as we did in bringing the G8 to County Fermanagh.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
May I say to the Secretary of State, as one survivor to another, that I agree with her analysis of last week’s investment conference, which provided an excellent opportunity to showcase Northern Ireland’s potential? But all is not sunny optimism in the land. What steps does she plan to take to support the small businesses in Northern Ireland that are struggling to get credit?
Mrs Villiers
We have introduced an allowance for employer’s national insurance, which will make it cheaper to employ people and create jobs; we are keeping interest rates low through our deficit reduction programme; we are freezing fuel duty; and we are cutting corporation tax to boost business. We are determined to make Northern Ireland a fabulous place to do business in, and to help small businesses.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Stephen Pound Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Hollobone. I rise to speak to amendment 2, which is in the name of the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) and myself. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Lady’s speech, and I am grateful to her for supporting the amendment that I proposed—one that is obviously consistent with the recommendations of the Select Committee on the matter of transparency for larger political donations. This recommendation was not disputed in the Committee and there was no vote or dissenting voice, as can be seen in the report. Looking back over the evidence given to the Committee by every Northern Ireland political party, it becomes clear that there is little evidence that the parties are receiving many donations above this specified amount, so it is not as if we are talking about a large number of people potentially at a security risk.
A fair number of the parties favoured transparency, and the hon. Member for Belfast East has pointed out that her party already publishes its donations, while the Green party and Sinn Fein said they were in favour in the evidence given to us. It is not quite so easy, however, to find on Sinn Fein’s website all of its donations. Some of us have tried and have asked, but the information does not quite seem to be there.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
I am very impressed with the hon. Gentleman’s comments so far. Will he confirm for the record that the Conservative party, which organises in Northern Ireland, is now going to be fully transparent in respect of all the donations received by that august body?
Nigel Mills
If only that were not so far above my pay grade, I would be happy to answer the hon. Gentleman. It is a matter that he will have to put to party officials. I have never had the pleasure of campaigning for my party in Northern Ireland, so I have not been made aware of those rules. I think that transparency is the right thing and that such matters should be disclosed, but I have no problem saying that the hon. Gentleman would have to ask somebody else about how my party operates in Northern Ireland.
The issue before us today is how to find a balance between transparency and the security threat. It is right that the Committee should have a say on that today. We should be reflecting on the fact that it is 15 years since the Good Friday agreement, and on how much progress has been made. The G8 summit in Northern Ireland was held without a hitch; and we had the Queen’s jubilee tour last year. I had the pleasure of being there to see it, and it was amazing to see that Her Majesty did not need to go around with all the bullet-proof glass of the past. That shows all the progress we have made, yet we seem to be saying that 15 or 16 years on from the agreement, we still do not dare publish the largest donations made to political parties.
The amendment refers to donations of more than £7,500. I think all the parties agree that that is a rare event, but there must come a point at which the level of a donation is such that members of the public begin to suspect that it is buying some kind of influence. There should be a threshold beyond which the public are able to see what donations are being received, so that they can be sure that no influence is being bought.
I have no reason to doubt that all the parties in Northern Ireland are entirely fair, that they are not for sale, and that they do not change their policies to suit donations. I am not sure that all the people in Northern Ireland are quite as confident of that as I am, but it is for them to be cynical. Their view on the subject may not have been greatly enhanced by a BBC programme that was shown in Northern Ireland last Thursday evening, and which I believe has prompted some doubt about the entire propriety of what happens.
It is possible that those who wish to make small donations will not be able to risk the threat to their security, but those who choose to donate more than £7,500 should do so in the knowledge that the fact that they have done so will be published, on the basis that it may be suspected that they are buying some kind of influence. We want to ensure that it is absolutely clear that they are not doing that, that none of the parties would do that, and there is no suggestion of any wrongdoing.
If it is not robust enough now and will not be robust enough in October 2014, when does the Minister think that the security situation will be robust enough to allow the publication of information about larger donations? What must change between now and the point at which we shall be able to publish that information? What criteria will the Government use under their new power to bring about more transparency? I am not certain that anyone fully understands what the obstacles are now, and what improvements would be necessary for us to provide that increased transparency, which I think every party that gave evidence to the Select Committee agreed was, in theory, desirable.
Stephen Pound
This is an important aspect of the Bill that we must thoroughly ventilate. Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern that although data may not be available for release, they do exist? If data are collated, stored and placed in a silo of information, there is always the fear and concern that they could be released. Examples at the moment from the other side of the Atlantic indicate that point. Does the right hon. Gentleman have any suggestions about how we could address that concern?
Mr Dodds
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about data that are held and not meant for publication yet somehow find themselves in the public domain, and we can all cite many examples of that happening in recent years. There are, of course, criminal sanctions, but that does not necessarily guarantee anything. The fact of the matter is that it depends on the good will and good faith of those who safeguard such information, and on proper security to ensure that what Parliament intends and enacts is followed through. The hon. Gentleman raises an important point that rightly concerns people, and the Government may wish to comment on what steps they are taking to ensure that information does not enter the public domain when people have been guaranteed that it will not.
Returning to amendment 2, which would remove the discretion, we put on record our concerns that donors to political parties in the rest of the UK do not face the same problems as donors to parties in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) pointed out the tremendous progress that has been made, which we all recognise, value and celebrate, but there is still a serious threat in terms of terrorism and public safety. Not long ago there was the murder of a prison officer, David Black, and there have been other serious incidents, disruptions and bomb attacks. We operate in a different climate—it is much improved and better than it used to be—but most people accept that we are still in a situation in which caution must be exercised.
As we move forward to a more normalised society, we hope that the threat from dissidents and others will recede and continue to be dealt with. As we put the violent past behind us, it is right and proper that we move towards a system of donations and loans, as employed in the rest of the United Kingdom, and we support the normalisation process for political donations as outlined in the Bill.
Ms Ritchie
It was my very clear understanding that my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle said that if the hon. Member for Belfast East were to press her amendment to a Division, he, like me, would support her—although I think I might be a Teller in such a Division. We in the SDLP believe that there is a need to move towards greater transparency and accountability. That can be balanced against the political progress we are making in the interests of the public good and, above all, the wider needs of society in Northern Ireland, because the experience of the last few weeks tells us that the public want politics to move in that direction. They want us, while serving them, to exercise our job in the right and proper and accountable manner.
Stephen Pound
We have heard a great deal this evening about the threats and dangers that could possibly be attracted to party political donors. It is perhaps salutary to mention that if such threats exist to those who donate to political parties, credit should be given to those who have the courage to participate fully in the democratic process as candidates and elected representatives, and perhaps we in this House do not give enough credit to those who sit with us in this Chamber and who take the most extraordinary risks in conditions that are frequently beyond the imagining of us on this side of the water. Many right hon. and hon. Members sitting here tonight have had very close personal experiences in that regard, so when we talk about the threat to donors let us also salute the courage of those who participate fully in the democratic process.
May I, in these brief remarks, say that I thought that the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) showed his fine—I was going to say almost Jesuitical subtlety but he probably would not thank me for that—analysis of the situation when he referred to the need to advance incrementally and organically? It is one thing to legislate, but we cannot legislate for human behaviour; we cannot demand that people’s behaviour and instincts change, and that society and culture change, because a piece of law has been approved in this House. A cultural change, an organic change, has to take place, and that is, of necessity, a slow process; it is an incremental process. None of us disagrees with the desirability of the destination; we all want to be in that place. It is the road map and the route we are talking about today. In the particular circumstances of politics in Northern Ireland, proceeding festina lente—I hope hon. Members will forgive me a spot of Latin—should be our watchword on this occasion. In recognition of that, the proceeding slowly and cautiously option is by far the best one. I look forward to hearing from the Minister, possibly also on the subject of transparency of the Conservative party in Northern Ireland.
Mr Dodds
The hon. Lady anticipates the exact point I was going to conclude with. Clause 7 takes care of the problem for 2015, but by permanently fixing the Assembly term at five years—again, as in Wales and Scotland—it also takes care of any future problems with overlaps between Assembly and Westminster elections.
For those reasons—and also because the clause ensures that Northern Ireland is absolutely four-square in line with the other devolved legislatures, in Scotland and Wales, as part of this great United Kingdom—I am more than delighted to support the Government on clause 7.
Stephen Pound
I yield to no person in my admiration for the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), for many reasons. One is because of the marvellous new expression we have heard this evening: “ad hoc-ery”. In the past we have had “what-aboutery”, but “ad hoc-ery” is absolutely marvellous—I thought he was a Taoiseach in Ireland many years ago, but that is neither here nor there.
The clause as it stands is supported by Her Majesty’s Opposition, principally because we think it is logical and sensible, and equalises the various devolved Assemblies. However, if anyone thinks that choosing a particular five-year period will ensure that no problems occur in future, they have another think coming, because there has never been a time in European political history when so many anniversaries have been queuing up to come down the road. We can therefore pretty much guarantee that whenever the Assembly votes, it will be the anniversary of something, and whenever the Assembly votes, there will be no guarantee whatever that it will be synchronous with this House. However, it would be sensible and far better—and, I think, rather more appreciated by the democratic community—if there were a fixed term in this particular case. A fixed term for this House we can discuss later, but for tonight, the position of Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition is that we support the Government’s proposal that there should be a five-year term, as there is in Wales and Scotland.
Naomi Long
That is entirely consistent with what the Government are proposing. The issue relates simply to the Minister’s appointment and security of tenure. Concerns were raised by my own party and indeed by other parties, and the Government, having listened to other parties in the Executive, took those concerns on board and formulated proposals which addressed them. That was helpful.
I have to say that my view of how an Executive should be formed in future differs from that of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and his party. We have been open and honest about the fact that we would much prefer the reforms of the Assembly to include a move away from d’Hondt and towards the election of all Ministers by means of a cross-community vote, because we believe that that would enhance collectiveness in the Executive. There would have to be agreement among the Northern Ireland parties for that to happen. I should add that I do not consider d’Hondt to be a normal way of appointing Ministers; I consider it to be a mechanism resulting from the Good Friday agreement which was required to manage an abnormal political situation. I hope that, when we seek to reform the Assembly more widely, that will be on the table for discussion along with everything else. However, I support what the Government are attempting to do, and oppose the attempt to change it.
Stephen Pound
I welcome what has just been said by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long). I hope that the Committee will forgive me for observing that the entire debate, which began so many hours ago, has been conducted in a positive, mature, sensible and serious manner, which I think is to the credit of all Members.
Let me also say on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition, as a matter of formality but also as a matter of personal desire, that we entirely understand why the Secretary of State has been detained elsewhere. We understand how difficult things are at present, as we approach Friday, and we understand very well that the right hon. Lady’s first duty must be to ensure peace and good order in Northern Ireland. The Opposition make no criticisms whatsoever. In fact, we feel that the Minister of State has made a very good fist of it, as he often does.
It is a great pleasure for us to hear the frequent encomiums to my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). We must never forget the part that he played in bringing us to where we are at present. I think it important to recognise the contribution made by many people, not just those who are in the Chamber tonight.
If there is one theme that could be said to have run consistently through the entire debate, it is the contrast between what we would like to do and what we think we can achieve. In the various statutory instruments discussions we have had, I have invoked St Augustine, and apparently I misquoted him when I said it was the great doctor of the Church who said “Make me pure, but not quite yet.” I received a letter in English from Canon Bernard Scholes telling me I had completely misunderstood the Augustinian theory on that, so I shall look to certain colleagues on this, probably the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), to whom I always defer in matters of theological exactitude.
Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
Stephen Pound Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
Just this morning, pupils from All Saints’ Church of England primary school in Trysull visited me and asked me what I was doing this afternoon, and I explained that I hoped to speak on the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) will be shocked to hear that they had not heard of it, but I informed them of the detail. I should say how well behaved they were and what a pleasure it was to have them visit Parliament.
I had the great privilege of serving as Parliamentary Private Secretary to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire) when he was in the Northern Ireland Office, and I remember how often the Bill, what it would contain and what it would deliver would be mentioned in our discussions. It is satisfying to see so much of what was discussed in the Bill and to see progress being made. Opposition Members have said that they would have liked to see more, but it is heartening to see how much can be welcomed by Members on both sides of the House.
It was 10 years ago that I started travelling regularly to Northern Ireland to work. Even in those 10 years, one saw an enormous difference in politics, economics and stability in Northern Ireland. I must confess that the Ulster fries were as good then as they are today—
Gavin Williamson
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks and will draw Mrs Williamson’s attention to them. I hope she appreciates that.
What has happened in the past 10 years—stability, progress—is remarkable, but what has happened in the past 20 years is even more remarkable. As has been mentioned, the Bill is about the progress that has been made and about supporting future progress.
The G8 was held in County Fermanagh. I remember visiting Lough Erne many times and seeing the beauty of it, and the whole world saw the beauty of Lough Erne. I am sure that that will be an enormous boost to tourism in Northern Ireland. Derry/Londonderry was city of culture last year. So much is happening and there is so much of which to feel proud.
We have touched on the issue of political donations, and most of my constituents, if they did not understand the context of what Northern Ireland had been through, would find it odd if political donations were not declared. The proposals made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State are sensible; they show a clear understanding of the problems we have had in Northern Ireland but take a gradualist approach that will ensure that we are open and transparent. The Electoral Commission’s polling has shown that 62% of people support more transparency and only 7% are happy with the status quo. We should welcome the fact that people feel that transparency about political donations is acceptable and that Northern Ireland is ready to see a greater level of it.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North made an important point about foreign donations from the Republic of Ireland. As we have discovered over the past few months, every multinational company has a base in the Republic of Ireland. In fact, nowadays it is more unusual for a multinational company not to have a base there. I hope that that can be considered, but the progress and the direction of travel are to be welcomed. They are what we need to see and they will build greater confidence in the political process and the political parties of Northern Ireland among all those who take part.
The Whip will have to make a note of this, but I am tempted to vote against the idea of ending double-jobbing. It is saddening to see that so many wonderful characters—great parliamentarians—might no longer be with us, but despite our sad loss if they decide to stay in Stormont I recognise that we need to deliver that proposal. We promised to deliver it in our manifesto and, as we have already heard from Northern Ireland Members, it is something on which they are ready to see progress. They are already delivering it in their political parties. Having such a provision in the Bill is an important element of building the confidence of people in Northern Ireland in the political process. I welcome it, and I am sure that all Members of this House will, too.
The idea of reducing the number of representatives in the Legislative Assembly should also be welcomed as there is massive over-representation. I accept that Staffordshire has a slightly smaller population than Northern Ireland, by 0.6 million—we have a population of only 1.1 million—but I find it hard to justify such over-representation in the Northern Ireland Assembly, with 108 Members, to my electorate. I am sure that a sensible number can be reached, to which all parties can agree. We should perhaps be willing to accept that some cages should be rattled if all parties cannot buy into the idea of bringing the number of Members down to a more sustainable level, whether that is 90 or 70—I will leave that to people who are far more knowledgeable about the matter than I am. Such a reduction will be progress. It will not only reduce the cost of politics but make those democratic representatives more relevant. I cannot think of a more horrendous idea than having six members of another assembly sitting below me in my constituency—I imagine it makes local politics a little more interesting. I am not saying that all Northern Ireland Members would be in favour of reducing the number, but it will make politics simpler and easier to understand. It will also make those who are elected to the Legislative Assembly more accountable to their electorate.
We have heard differing views on whether the election date should be changed, but I think it would be good if all the devolved Assemblies held all their elections on the same day. That would make the date more significant, not only for the devolved Assemblies but for the whole United Kingdom. If elections are held on different days and in different years, there is not so much of a national story or a local story. We must not underestimate the importance of a devolved Assembly to the lives of the whole United Kingdom. As one who believes in a united kingdom, the success of the devolved Assemblies is as important to me as it is to those who live in Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. So often, the BBC and our national press ignore stories in the devolved Assemblies; I hope that holding all the elections together will make a more significant news story for the whole of the United Kingdom.
We have been waiting for this Bill. I remember the previous Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), talking about it excitedly, and now it has arrived. It is a good Bill, I welcome it and I am happy to support it.
Mark Durkan
I thank the hon. Lady for making that point, but I do not believe that the answer is to have a general ban on donations from people living in the Irish Republic. If we were to say that anyone living there who wanted to make a donation had to be registered on the list of electors there, that would go some way towards strengthening the provisions. If there are loopholes that allow moneys that would otherwise be unacceptable to arrive in the north, and if those loopholes are being used to “wash through” money, mechanisms will have to be put in place to stop that happening. Declarations would have to be made in relation to any such money. I would have no problem with a requirement for such declarations, not only from those giving the money to say that it was truly coming from them and not from someone else, but from those receiving it. That would fix minds quite clearly. That is where the responsibility should rest, and that is where the law should be targeted.
I represent a border constituency. Many of the people who make significant investments in businesses there and make a significant contribution to the economy, not only in Foyle but in the whole of the north-west, live in the south. Some live just a few miles across the border, others live further away. Many of them originate in Derry. There are many families in Derry whose cousinage is in Donegal and in many other parts of the south—
Mark Durkan
Including Mayo, as the shadow Minister says. I was also glad to hear earlier from the Liberal spokesperson, the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd). Perhaps we have a gathering of the Mayo association here today. I speak as a grandson of Mayo myself, rather than a son.
The point needs to be recognised that there are many people in the south whose roots are in the north. Many of them have business and professional links with the north, and many of them undertake public appointments there. Thankfully, they are appointed not only by nationalist Ministers. Those people from the south can have a legitimate input into the democratic governance and well-being of the north, and I see no reason to preclude them from doing that through duly registered political donations if they wish to do so.
We have heard the arguments for and against the dual mandate. I made my own decision on that a number of years ago when I took the personal step of saying that if I was elected as an MP again, I would give up my seat in the Assembly. I did not believe that the dual mandate could be sustained any longer. On that basis, I also resigned the leadership of my party, because I did not think that anyone could seriously try to lead a political party in Northern Ireland without being in the devolved Assembly.
I took that step after we had been frustrated in our attempts to change the rules. During various negotiations and initiatives, some of us had made the point that we needed to draw a line under the dual mandate. We said that the parties needed to agree on a date or a point in the electoral cycle when dual mandates would stop, but it was impossible to reach agreement on that. I recall debates in the Assembly in which the Democratic Unionist party voted against any such move against dual mandates. It praised them, saying that they were the best thing since sliced bread and that they were saving us money. Then, in the wake of the pressures resulting from the expenses scandal, the DUP suddenly started playing leapfrog over the rest of us. It suddenly wanted to get rid of dual mandates, too. In many ways it hid behind the Kelly recommendations, saying that if an outlying date of 2015 were set, that would be the target date towards which it would work.
Historically, the dual mandate could be justified by the uncertain circumstances that existed in Northern Ireland. Indeed, it is arguable that many people were able to do great work carrying dual mandates, not least John Hume and Ian Paisley when they were in this House and in the European Parliament. Along with their Ulster Unionist colleague, they were able to do productive and effective work in Europe and to bring home significant benefits. As with the question of openness over donations, however, public expectations have moved on. People can see that circumstances and standards have changed. Change changes things. That is probably the most underestimated fact in politics and democratic life. We need to move on.
If a limit is, rightly, set on dual mandates in this House, the Bill should also make provision for that in respect of any possible membership of Dail Eireann. Any such provision should apply not only to MPs but to Teachtai Dala. It would be right to extend that to Members of the House of Lords and to Members of Seanad Eireann as well. If the rule specifies membership of one legislative chamber and one only, it should apply regardless. I agree with the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) that that should apply whether or not the proposed abolition of Seanad Eireann goes ahead. I hope it does not; I would much prefer to see reform of that good constitutional tool. The fact is that people should be members of one legislative chamber and one only.
As to the size of the Assembly, I made the point in an intervention that the position on which parties were negotiating at the stage when we negotiated the agreement was broadly based on a 90-member Assembly, with five Members for each of the parliamentary constituencies. It was not the case that it was a matter of principle that we wanted the Assembly elected from the existing parliamentary constituencies. The point was that if we were going to get an Assembly established on the back of an agreement, it had to be on the basis of some existing constituencies, and the parliamentary constituencies were obviously the available and relevant ones.
The Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 creates five-year parliamentary boundary reviews, but I think that will cause problems, not just in respect of the potential impact of boundary reviews in parliamentary terms, but in Assembly terms, too. What might appear to be a small change in a constituency in parliamentary terms could be very significant for Assembly members. Somebody’s well-established Assembly bailiwick could be directly split in a way that might appear marginal to the parliamentary constituency, so I think there are difficulties there. I know that there has been some discussion in the Assembly and Executive Review Committee about whether the Assembly still needs to rely on or stick to absolute coterminocity of Assembly and parliamentary constituencies for the long term. If we end up having a difficult experience from five-year boundary reviews—I hope this will be revised in the future so that we can move to something more sensible than having reviews for every single Parliament—the Assembly might well be advised to consider something different.
The position on the number of Members was, as I said, five for each constituency. If, under the boundary reviews, the number of constituencies is reduced, that will obviously reduce the number of Members in the Assembly in turn. In the context of previous negotiations, including those in Leeds castle and elsewhere where there were reviews and half reviews of the agreement, the SDLP put forward its views, but there were no takers for the changes, just as when we offered proposals to improve the transparency of the Assembly and to make it a bit more robust as a chamber of accountability.
Some of those who talk most about transparency and accountability resisted. I remember Peter Robinson saying at Leeds castle, “Well, we do not want that much accountability.” The proposals did not even go as far as saying that there should be a formal opposition in the Assembly, but sought to ensure that there were ways of holding Ministers to account to the Assembly. One way of doing that was that after budgets, all Ministers would make statements on what they were planning to do with the moneys allocated to them rather than hide behind one statement by the Minister of Finance.
As other hon. Members have said, the question of opposition is important. When we negotiated the agreement, just as we were clear that the Government would be inclusive for those parties that wished to exercise the right to take their mandate into ministerial office, so, too, the scrutiny and accountability role of the Assembly had to be inclusive. Some of us, perhaps naively, envisaged that members of the Ministers’ own parties would challenge them and put questions to them; unfortunately, that is not what we have. Anyone looking at the Parliament channel, for example, is likely to see question time and debates, and there are more plants than at a garden centre! It is not what we wanted—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) mentions vegetables in particular, and I am sure his party colleagues will be delighted by that proud reference and strong endorsement.
The discussion that many people are having is important. What it reflects is not necessarily the absolute need for an opposition that some have seized on; it is more a feeling that there is not enough challenge, scrutiny or debate. Some people think that real debate ends up falling to “The Nolan Show” or other talk-back radio programmes, but questioning and challenging decisions should be taking place in the committees of the Assembly and on its floor. We should have other types of committee —more cross-cutting committees, for example, with the sort of teeth that the Public Accounts Committee has. They might be rated more highly not just by Ministers but by civil servants than they are under the current committee model. As other hon. Members have said, there are a number of things that we can look at.
On the appointment of the Justice Minister, we recognise that there are a number of anomalies. The proposed changes seem neatly to answer the problem of the d’Hondt excess enjoyed by one party, which goes against the proportionality provisions and the inclusion promise of the agreement. I fear that in resolving the anomaly in the proposed way, however, we will end up creating a predicament for the system and potentially for a party that could find itself typecast, particularly through the role of the Justice Minister, in ways that might well prove frustrating in the future. Other parties might find that frustrating or might abuse their sense of frustration. We need to be careful that in fixing one problem, we do not create another problem for the long term or build a permanent abnormality that imposes an obligation or a limitation on any particular party.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
When my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) sat down to plan how best to celebrate her birthday, which is today, she probably had in mind some clubbing in Coatbridge, rather than sitting here for the Second Reading of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. However, I like to think that the evening she has spent in our company has been rewarding. I have no doubt that the whole House will join me in wishing her the happiest of birthdays and hope that this occasion has been something of a present for her.
I think that those who gently denigrated the Bill as some sort of sweeping-up Bill, portmanteau Bill or bits-and-pieces Bill missed the fact that crucially important business has been discussed here tonight. As we heard in the last speech, some of the most important issues we ever discuss in the House have been heard on the Floor tonight. I pay tribute to the Secretary of State for the calm, sensible, serious and, above all, positive way in which she introduced the debate, and she was optimistic where optimism could be justified. I think that it was a first-class presentation that set the tone.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), whom we must now call the senior shadow Secretary of State, as we have new categories, spoke marvellously. Listening to him speak about his adventures, and from the number of times he appears in Northern Ireland, one might wonder whether there are not dozens of doppelgangers, or Coaker clones, because how else could he be in so many places at the same time? I think that we are simply fortunate that there is just one of him, but one with an enormous amount of energy. His comments about the Theatre of Witness production of “From the Rubble” at St Ethelburga’s church were extremely well made, and we should all listen to that and perhaps see it ourselves. He also mentioned the National Crime Agency, as a number of Members did later, which I think is one of the many aspects that will be discussed in Committee, for there is much business to be done there.
The hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), who chairs the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, showing his usual great respect for the House by flying in from Belfast, and probably missing his lunch, rightly paid credit to the role of the Committee—[Interruption.] He is nodding rather painfully, which implies that he did miss his lunch, so I hope that he has a decent supper tonight. Certainly, his work on pre-legislative scrutiny has been greatly appreciated.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) used an expression that we kept returning to in different forms. He talked about the stability that we take for granted. I will add that we must never take it for granted. He also introduced the role of Tony Blair. I was as delighted as the next person to hear the great former leader of our nation mentioned on the Floor of the House—[Interruption.] No, we need to hear about him more often. John Major was also mentioned, and for all I know Martin Mansergh and Albert Reynolds might have been mentioned, but I must have missed them. It was, as ever, a wise, serious and sagacious contribution from the right hon. Gentleman.
The hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson) tested the tolerance of the House. He claims to have spent many a year scoffing Ulster fries. The evidence before us—this slim youth in a well cut, well fitting suit and hardly a spare microgram of avoir-du-poids about his person—rather indicates that the closest he has ever come to an Ulster fry has been through the window of a café. However, he has time to make up for his past transgressions.
The hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), I am glad to say, referred to a comment made by the shadow Secretary of State in our previous debate—that devolution does not mean disengagement. That is one of the most crucial statements we have heard and we must never, ever forget it.
The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) took us on a marvellous, magnificent tour d’horizon through the rolling mists of history. I knew that as soon as Lough Erne was mentioned, the “dreary steeples of Fermanagh” would come in somewhere; it had to happen. The hon. Gentleman spoke with that mixture of erudition, elegance and grace for which he is so well known.
On the subject of erudition and grace, I turn to the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), who again showed that, when it comes to understanding the basis of what we are talking about and cutting through the persiflage, very few can match her. She drew the House’s attention to the fact that this is only the second uninterrupted full term of the Assembly. We must never forget that; we are that close to how things used to be.
The hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) referred to his grandfather from County Mayo and his experience on the Somme; I think the hon. Gentleman was immediately signed up to the Mayo Association on the basis of that. It was a good contribution that reminded us of how close the links are between our islands and how the bloodlines flow in both directions.
Rather worryingly, the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) started to go into a cost-benefit analysis of representatives. A few Members looked a little anxious as he went down the various costs, values and benefits. When he then whipped from his pocket a series of multiple passports, we wondered whether he was supplementing his income with a bit of printing on the side. However, we all know that the hon. Gentleman is above that sort of thing. If, however, he happens to have a spare passport, I am sure that he will let us know.
I do not think I have ever heard the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) speak more movingly than he did tonight. We have heard some superb speeches from the hon. Gentleman and tonight’s was absolutely magnificent. He talked about moving at a proper pace, which is very important. We must realise that we cannot achieve everything overnight. He also talked about the increase in employment, particularly high-skilled employment, in his constituency. He then mentioned his proud history of topping the poll over 40 years in multi-Member constituencies. I am a great admirer of the hon. Gentleman’s music, of which I have quite a collection. One of my favourites of his songs is entitled “Still Blessed”. May I say that his constituents are still blessed?
The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) once again revealed to us the sophisticated, cosmopolitan ambiance of Derry in referring to the “tapas Bill”. I have sat in Sandinos wondering what on earth “tapas” were—I thought they were something water came out of. [Interruption.] The Minister of State wants to know what “tapas” are; if somebody does know, perhaps they will tell him. The hon. Member for Foyle made the point that the “tapas Bill” had only slim strips of meat in it. I would say that there is a lot of meat and that even more will be discovered in Committee. It is very important that we pick up on these points.
Extremely important points were raised about donations from the Republic of Ireland. We cannot forget or stop talking about this issue. There are people who feel strongly where their homeland is and cannot accept talk of not receiving donations from somewhere just over the border.
The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) talked about the positive direction of travel. She also rather went off on an Agatha Christie track about the mysteries of South Down. Personally, I prefer Colin Bateman to Agatha Christie. If Colin Bateman were to venture a little south of Belfast, perhaps South Down, there is a mystery there for him to work on.
The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), with his marvellous analysis of revisionism, proved yet again that in certain parts of these islands only the future is certain and the past is always changing. He finished on an extremely serious point when he talked about the legacy, which is an issue that we cannot forget.
After all the speakers we have heard today, I have but one regret. There was one voice missing. I am a great admirer of the crystalline clarity—the pellucid prose—of the Strangford Seannachie. Sadly, that proud voice was silent tonight, but I suspect that we will hear it again, and again, and again.
Very important business has been discussed on the Floor of the House and will be discussed in Committee. There are clearly huge issues regarding representation, donations, transparency and the role of the Justice Minister that have not gone away and still need to be considered. We have had a good Second Reading debate; I do not think anyone can deny that. On occasion we have ranged rather further and wider than many of us thought we would, but it has been to a good end. We now have a basis for a proper discussion in Committee.
I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions and close with my initial comment: the Secretary of State spoke very wisely, sensibly and warmly when she introduced the Bill, and I thank and pay credit to her for that.
Oral Answers to Questions
Stephen Pound Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
Sometimes the mention of Europe in this Chamber engenders the same reaction as occurred this morning at a magnificent Ulster fry breakfast when somebody asked for the vegetarian alternative. From the perspective of a former very distinguished Member of the European Parliament, the Secretary of State must recognise that Northern Ireland has benefited greatly from the UK’s membership of the EU. Will she outline briefly how she sees that relationship developing in coming years?
Mrs Villiers
As I have said, I think it is crucial that our relationship with Europe changes so that it is no longer focused on ever-closer political union, which is something that the people of this country never have wanted and never will want, but focuses on the commercial and trade opportunities that people thought they were voting for last time we had a referendum on the EU.
Northern Ireland
Stephen Pound Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
I am sure it is unnecessary to pay tribute to all Members who have spoken in an extraordinarily timely, appropriate and long overdue debate. It is a tradition of this House—it has grown over the years—for the wind-ups of Ministers and shadow Ministers to name-check every single speaker and credit them with the most extraordinary oratorical flourishes. I do not think that that is necessary and will simply concentrate on the finest and best speakers that we have heard this afternoon.
I will start, of course, with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), who, as ever, commanded the House and held us in the palm of his hand when he described the economic and cultural renaissance that exists not by coincidence, but by virtue of examples such as the Titanic quarter, which is an extraordinarily interesting place to visit.
The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee ran through its greatest hits. I congratulate him on eschewing the false modesty to which others might have succumbed when he told us about his successes with regard to air passenger duty, corporation tax and fuel laundering. How right he was to avoid excessive modesty. The respect that many of us who have served on the Committee have for him probably grew today.
The hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) made an extremely thoughtful speech, in which he spoke from a position of almost unrivalled authority. I have no doubt that his positive and forward-looking comments will have impressed themselves on all Members.
The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) made an unusual comment. It is not for me to criticise my betters, which I entirely accept he is, but to refer to hon. and right hon. Members dusting off their speeches and running through their old prejudices on occasions such as these was outrageous, even though one should not criticise an officer. However, we respect him for his contribution and I hope that he will accept that there was no dusting off of stump and set speeches. I think that everything we heard this afternoon was fresh, new and positive and very much in the best traditions of this House.
When the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) spoke about a transformed city, she did so from an unrivalled position of authority. If there is one person in this House who stands as an example of the resilience of the people of Northern Ireland and their refusal to bow to sectarian assault, it is her. She has immense courage and her words resonated throughout the Chamber. When she spoke of the agonies of segregated lives, she described not only a current problem, but a future direction of travel, which we will simply have to address at some stage.
I enjoy it when my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) speaks of sport. She could have mentioned her own remarkable achievements in that area. When I met her and the Sandy Row boxing club the other day, we did not discuss all-Ireland boxing, but we have now been educated on it. Sports groups and organisations in Northern Ireland are providing leadership. Two football teams from slightly different traditions in Belfast—Crusaders and Cliftonville—have for the past two or three years, very quietly and peacefully and without great fanfare, been getting on with cross-community working. I am not sure whether they have ever been given credit on the Floor of the House, but I would like to give credit to the Crus and to Cliftonville for their achievements in that area. I also congratulate the appropriate Members of Parliament for the support that they have given.
The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) demonstrated yet again, as if reminding was needed, what a superb constituency Member he is. Should there at any stage be the remotest threat to any business, any entrepreneur, any start-up, any lock-up garage, any car boot sale, anything within the environs of glorious, beauteous Ballymena, who will come riding forth on his white charger to protect them but the hon. Member for North Antrim? He referred to tobacco packaging. One would almost think there was a constituency interest there. Now that I come to think about it, I remember that Roy Beggs, when he was a Member of the House, and I visited that factory and I discovered, when the free samples were being given out afterwards, how extraordinarily capacious the poacher’s pocket of Roy Beggs’s ulster could be. That was the large coat that he used to wear. I do not think I have ever in my life seen so many packets of Silk Cut disappear into one garment. Yet again the hon. Member for North Antrim has proved that he is a first-class constituency representative.
We also heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop). He proved the old adage that if every single President of the United States is entirely Irish, particularly the present one, most Members of the House have some Irish ancestry. The interdependence and the links between our two nations, the shared ancestry, come across as a very important fact that we should never forget, because we are tied together in these islands by ties not just of history, commerce or convenience, but very often of blood, culture and shared history. It was salutary to hear his story of how people came to his constituency from Ireland and made a success, but he has never forgotten where he came from. We need to respect that.
The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) referred to a work in progress. As ever, she brings oratorical flushes and realism in one glorious melange of accuracy. Although her comments were slightly warning, she was optimistic but realistic. That is the reputation that she has. Were we to get into a competition with my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) about the beauty of various constituencies, South Down would be very high on my personal list. I mean to cause no offence to more than 99% of the House when I say that.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) is, in my opinion, one of the most decent, God-fearing and good-hearted Members of the House. He also has an oratorical skill and the skill of language and poetry. If I could understand what he was saying most of the time, I am sure that I would never forget his words. I did have the advantage of a translator. My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling, who has spent much time in Strangford, gave me a running commentary.
The hon. Member for Strangford referred to the fear in people’s faces and the sorrow in their eyes. That is poetry, and it is poetry from the heart. It is not an artifice but a genuine poetic instinct and an urge. If I may say so, it is an honour for us to hear that. He also used an expression that we should remember. It is one of the most important things that has been said today. He said that in Northern Ireland people are not only surviving, but thriving. That is something we should certainly remember. He also talked about how people are managing to overcome the difficulties that they face, and he did so with immense courage.
My hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), as ever the Pericles of Derry, the man who somehow manages to produce these wondrous verbal confections at which the rest of us simply stand back in amazement, identified an extremely serious point when he spoke about instability. He said that the instability is not to do with the inherent difficulties with the institutions; it is to do with other factors. We need to concentrate on that. As ever, he came up with a glorious expression that we will never forget, when he said that we should not be patronising people, nor ghettoising people.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling made one of the best speeches that I have heard on the Floor of this House. It was a speech that was positive and realistic. It contained one line that meant an enormous amount to me: devolution does not mean disengagement. When my hon. Friend made that point, he put down a marker. It was not a party political point, but reflected the attitude of the whole House. That line resonated in what the Secretary of State said and she echoed that emotion.
Anyone who is listening to this debate should be sure of one thing: there is a cool, calm and determined attitude in this House. We have an unbreakable determination that the benefits of the peace process will not be lost. We will not, under any circumstances, go back to the cold, chill days of carnage and slaughter. We will move forward and it will be difficult, but there is an absolute commitment on the part of every single Member of this House, for the sake not just of our united nation or Northern Ireland, but our common humanity, to see this through and not to be beaten. The one message that comes from this afternoon’s debate is that there is a unanimity of view, emotion, strength and determination throughout this Chamber and, dare I say it, this country. If this debate has underlined that one point, we have achieved a great deal this afternoon.
Oral Answers to Questions
Stephen Pound Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
Order. In my experience the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) rarely has difficulty in making himself heard, but there is a lot of noise at the moment and so, just in case, let us have a bit of quiet for Mr Stephen Pound.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I am mortally obliged, sir.
Some 111,000 working families receiving tax credits in Northern Ireland will lose out because of the Government’s tax on strivers. At the same time, the Government will give a tax cut for those earning £1 million and above. Does the Secretary of State think that economic growth will be helped or hindered by having Christmas in April for millionaires?
Mrs Villiers
The Government are fully committed to their welfare reform programme. We believe that welfare reform is essential to ensure that work always pays. We believe that it is deeply irresponsible for Her Majesty’s Opposition to continue to oppose all the reforms of welfare, which are designed to get the welfare bill down. That spiralled under their tenure of the economy.