Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Nineteeth sitting)

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 5th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

Yes, I believe so. Photographic ID would be the standard to which we would aspire. I do not know whether there was anything else under her question? I think the answer is yes.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Could the Minister clarify whether the requirement for one year of residency in the UK means that a foreign citizen studying at a university here would be able to consider assisted dying?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. We have the term “ordinarily resident” in the UK in clause 1. Obviously if the Committee sees fit to accept the amendment it would change to “resident”, which is a looser term. This matter would also be one for the Home Office, as the custodian of our rules and regulations on immigration, but my sense would be that if we stick with “ordinarily resident” then someone who is not ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom would not qualify for assisted dying.

As the Bill currently stands, the Secretary of State has the power but not the obligation to set these requirements in regulations. This amendment would remove this discretion and require the Secretary of State to specify what forms of ID must be provided.

Amendment 293 ensures that regulations on acceptable forms of proof of identify must be approved by both Houses of Parliament before coming into force, by requiring these regulations to follow the affirmative rather than the negative procedure. As I said earlier, the Government’s position is neutral, but I hope my observations—

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[Rebecca Paul]

Different situations will give a different result. It is a complex situation. We could have a patient who, if they did not have an assisted death, would be on a palliative care pathway, which might not involve as much time from their GP—the assessing doctor, in that instance. If they moved on to the assisted dying pathway, however, the assessment process would need to start, and it has to happen quickly for all the reasons that I have set out.

The Bill relies on doctors being highly conscientious and hard-working, but it also risks taking them for granted if it makes no allowance for the present realities that they face in our healthcare system. This amendment tries to reflect and recognise that.

In November, the hon. Member for Stroud said,

“I have watched with horror as our NHS has gone from being the best health service in the world…to being a service on its knees.”—[Official Report, 6 November 2024; Vol. 756, c. 358.]

If the NHS is to get off its knees, surely we cannot afford for assisted suicide to jeopardise the care of patients who already struggle to get an appointment. We must recognise that there are people out there who cannot get an appointment to see their GP, and reflect that in the Bill.

[Sojan Joseph]

I rise to speak briefly to amendment 296. We all know how the NHS operates, how the appointment system works in the NHS and how long people have to wait to see a doctor. I do not think that my hon. Friend the Member for York Central tabled the amendment with any ill thought, but just to highlight the issue. I do not think that the amendment will make the Bill any safer or stronger, or safeguard anything, but the Committee needs to acknowledge it.

I will quote the Royal College of Physicians, which represents 40,000 doctors who primarily work in hospitals, including on palliative care. The Royal College of Physicians took a neutral position on the Bill. In its written evidence, it highlighted,

“We recognise that the ultimate decision on assisted dying rests with society through Parliament, however any changes to the law will significantly affect clinical practice beyond palliative care…Should the law change, the RCP strongly argues that assisted dying must not divert resources from end of life and palliative care provision, which are not currently adequate.”

With amendment 296, my hon. Friend the Member for York Central is trying to get the Committee to acknowledge that some NHS departments work with vacancies of 50 medical professionals. A patient who has been waiting for six months should not have their appointment cancelled because the provision here is prioritised. I think that is what my hon. Friend meant with her amendment, and I commend her thought about wider NHS provision.

[Danny Kruger]

I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, and that he will not be able to support the amendment, but does he acknowledge that its purpose is to clarify the triage process that needs to be done by doctors? It is a perfectly appropriate request to make of doctors.

[Sojan Joseph]

I agree. It highlights the point that the impact assessment will be very important here, to see from where the resources are being pulled to provide this. The Committee should acknowledge amendment 296.

[Stephen Kinnock]

These amendments introduce requirements on the timing within which the co-ordinating doctor must carry out a first assessment once the first declaration is made by a person. I will turn first to amendment 296. As currently drafted, clause 7(1) requires that the co-ordinating doctor must carry out a first assessment

“as soon as reasonably practicable”

after a person has made a first declaration. Amendment 296 would require that after the first declaration is made, the co-ordinating doctor must arrange a mutually convenient time and date for the first assessment to take place, but it removes the stipulation that the assessment must be carried out as soon as reasonably practicable. The amendment would also require the date and time agreed not to jeopardise the care of other patients. The effect of the amendment may be to lengthen the period between the first declaration and the first assessment, in some cases.

Amendments 127 to 141 seek to ensure that the assessments, declarations and statements made throughout the Bill are finalised and recorded within 10 working days of being started. The amendments achieve this by inserting the term “within 10 working days” in place of

“as soon as reasonably practicable”

in clauses 7, 8, 16, 17, 21 and 22. This would put in place a time-bound limit that the medical practitioner must adhere to when carrying out the first and second assessments, when recording information in medical records at various stages, including the High Court declaration, and when recording other matters in medical records.

Our assessment suggests that in most circumstances, although it would depend on the facts of a particular case, the requirement to do an action as soon as practicable would generally amount to a requirement to do the action sooner than in 10 working days’ time. In terms of the operational effects, having a set timeline may give greater certainty to individuals seeking assistance. However, it may limit doctors’ discretion to set the timeline based around the patient’s wishes. These are matters for the Committee to weigh up and consider.

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[Daniel Francis]

I agree. An assessment by a specialist would protect patients and give another opportunity to spot coercion—something that we all want to safeguard against.

I welcome the acceptance of amendment 20, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Jess Asato), ensuring that doctors will be better trained to spot these issues, but that is only the start. We need the same in-depth assessment that living organ donors would get. Patients must fully understand the decision they are taking, and doctors must be convinced that they are capable of making it.

For organ donation, the NHS recommends that potential donors meet a mental health professional at an early stage, particularly in cases where people have a history of mental illness. As we have already noted, those diagnosed with terminal illnesses are likely to also have mental health issues. Dr Sarah Cox, in her oral evidence, cited a study by Professor Louis Appleby, the Government’s suicide prevention adviser. Dr Cox said:

“If we look at the evidence of suicide, we know that it is increased in people with serious illnesses.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 82, Q105.]

[Sojan Joseph]

We have discussed this issue many times. Within the Bill there is a provision for clinicians to refer to a psychiatrist if in any doubt. Does the hon. Member think that having that conversation at an earlier stage would be beneficial, rather than at a later stage?

[Daniel Francis]

I agree with my hon. Friend about the number of amendments in this vein, but clearly the amendments suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch bring us into line with existing regulations. In her evidence, Dr Cox said:

“If we look at the evidence of suicide, we know that it is increased in people with serious illnesses, but it is actually increased in the first six months after diagnosis, not in the last six months of their lives, so it is about the trauma of the diagnosis.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 82, Q105.]

It is likely, therefore, that those diagnosed with a terminal illness will experience mental distress that could affect their capacity to make a decision about an assisted death. In her written evidence, Dr Virginia Goncalves, a retired clinical psychiatrist with over 30 years of experience in the NHS, writes:

“In my consultant psychiatrist role, I have encountered many desperate and suicidal patients wanting to end their lives after struggling with longstanding mental distress, who could have easily sought the option of assisted suicide if it had been available to them! But however depressed and hopeless they felt, with a compassionate and hope filled approach from their care givers and the correct medical and psychological treatment, the vast majority recovered enough to be able to have a ‘life worth living’. In so many cases, these patients have thanked me later for not giving up on them! Not once have I heard anyone say ‘you should have let me die when I wanted to do it’.”

A meeting with a psychiatrist or other psychological specialist will protect people who may otherwise not have chosen assisted dying. I emphasise again that we already ensure that patients who will donate an organ have this assessment, so why not those seeking an assisted death? We must protect vulnerable terminally ill people from being coerced into assisted death, and psychiatrists and other specialists are best placed to spot that. That is why the assessment is included for living organ donation.

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[The Chair]

There are a lot of other amendments grouped with amendment 56. Does anyone want to move amendment 56 or shall we move on?

[Sojan Joseph]

I beg to move amendment 56, in clause 8, page 4, line 34, at end insert—

“(ba) would not, in the opinion of the independent doctor, be liable for detention under the Mental Health Act 1983.”

This amendment would require the independent doctor to assess whether, in their opinion, a person would be liable for detention under the Mental Health Act 1983.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 57, in clause 8, page 5, line 1, leave out subsection (4) and insert—

“(4) The independent doctor must, where possible, undertake the second assessment jointly with the coordinating doctor.

(4A) If the independent doctor is unable to undertake the second assessment jointly with the coordinating doctor under subsection (4), the independent doctor must confer with the coordinating doctor before completing that assessment.”

This amendment would require the independent doctor to undertake the second assessment jointly with the coordinating doctor, or, if they are unable to, to confer with that doctor before completing the assessment.

Amendment 1, in clause 8, page 5, line 13, at beginning insert

“is a registered medical practitioner who is registered in the specialism of psychiatry in the Specialist Register kept by the General Medical Council and”.

This amendment would require that the independent doctor is a registered psychiatrist.

Amendment 197, in clause 8, page 5, line 13, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—

“(a) meets the requirements specified in regulations under subsection (6A),”.

This amendment and Amendment 198 impose a duty on the Secretary of State to make regulations about the training, qualifications and experience required in order to act as the independent doctor.

Amendment 58, in clause 8, page 5, line 14, at end insert—

“(aa) is a practitioner approved as having special experience in the diagnosis or treatment of mental disorder for the purposes of subsection (2) of Section 12 (General provisions as to medical recommendations) of the Mental Health Act 1983,”.

This amendment, which is linked to Amendment 56 would require the independent doctor to have special experience in the diagnosis of mental disorder.

Amendment 198, in clause 8, page 5, line 25, at end insert—

“(6A) The Secretary of State must by regulations make provision about the training, qualifications and experience that a registered medical practitioner must have in order to carry out the functions of the independent doctor.

(6B) The regulations must include training about—

(a) assessing capacity;

(b) assessing whether a person has been coerced or pressured by any other person.

(6C) Subject to that, the regulations may in particular provide that the required training, qualifications or experience is to be determined by a person specified in the regulations.”

See the statement for Amendment 197.

Amendment 428, in clause 8, page 5, line 25, at end insert—

“(6A) In Wales, all reasonable steps must be taken to ensure the practitioner under subsection (6) has fluent proficiency in the Welsh language if services or functions in the Act are to be provided to an individual in Welsh.”

Amendment 21, in clause 8, page 5, line 29, at end insert—

“(8A) Regulations under subsection (6)(a) must specify that training in respect of domestic abuse, including coercive control and financial abuse is mandatory.”

This amendment would require the registered medical practitioner acting as the independent doctor to have undertaken training on domestic abuse, including coercive control and financial abuse.

[Sojan Joseph]

I should like to speak to amendment 1 —I am pleased that I was able to table my amendment first. We have already discussed safeguarding many times and how capacity is central to these measures. As we know, clause 1 lists the qualifying criteria that a terminally ill person must meet, which includes having the capacity to make such a decision. Indeed, the qualifying criteria might not be written in any order of importance, but the fact that that appears first underlines its significance.

In many days of sittings the most spoken words have been mental health, capacity, coercion and suicidal thoughts, rather than pain, cancer and suffering. The importance of capacity as a safeguard is again demonstrated when we turn to clauses 7 and 8, which in turn set out what both the co-ordinating doctor and the independent doctor must assess in order for a terminally ill adult to be allowed to end their own life.

In clause 7, the first assessing doctor with responsibility is the co-ordinating doctor. In clause 8, the second doctor is the independent doctor. The doctors are expected to assess mostly the same things. For example, the first doctor will assess whether the person is terminally ill, has capacity to make the decision to end their own life, is aged 18 or over, is ordinarily resident in England, and is registered as a patient with a general medical practice in England. The second doctor does exactly the same and assesses whether the person is terminally ill, has capacity to make the decision to end their own life, is aged 18 years or over and so on.

Before coming to the first assessing doctor, the patient has already been treated by a consultant and been diagnosed as terminally ill, so the three doctors are basically doing the same job. That is important and relevant to my amendment 1, which asks that one of the two assessing doctors should be a qualified psychiatrist or a specialist in psychiatry. As I said earlier, the issues that have been most discussed by Committee members in the last few sittings were capacity, mental health and suicide. In my view, there is a gap that needs to be addressed.

We talked earlier about unconscious bias. There is already a provision in the Bill to refer a patient to a psychiatrist if one of the doctors thinks that there is an issue with their mental health or capacity. We discussed a similar concept when we debated the patient having access to a palliative care consultant. Some of the comments were that needing another person makes it complex, and it should be simplified. Do Members think that if any of the doctors thinks that there is an issue with the patient’s mental health or capacity assessment, making a referral creates that same kind of complexity? Getting access to a psychiatrist could be simplified by having that second doctor be a specialist in mental health. It is to be strongly welcomed that both co-ordinating doctors and independent doctors have to make an assessment that the person wanting to ending their life has the necessary capacity to make such an important decision.

The question came up during the debate about whether, if somebody has mild depression or another mental health disorder, but they still think that they have capacity, they should be allowed to choose this route. We have seen that, in some other countries where this route is already practised, mental health was originally excluded from the criteria but was later added. Are we saying that even if someone has mental ill health, mild depression or some sort of mental illness, if they have capacity, we can allow them to choose assisted dying? Who will make that decision?

In my experience of working in mental health for many years, I have seen many terminally ill people being admitted to mental health wards because of their increasing suicidal thoughts. Many people who have a mental illness for many years, especially chronically mentally ill people, lead a normal life with the support of medication, but when they are diagnosed with a terminal illness, such as cancer, and start chemotherapy or taking medication for that, it can interact with the medication that they were already taking. That can have an impact on their mental health or decision making, so it is important that those patients have access to a psychiatrist.

I am not asking to make the process more complex or for us to draw any more resources from the NHS by adding a psychiatrist into the assessment. All my amendment asks is for one of the two doctors to be a psychiatrist, which in fact makes the process safer and more secure—some of the concerns that we have talked about.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on tabling amendment 1 on the amendment paper—a lot has happened since he tabled that amendment, it is fair to say. I get the impression from the Committee that we will all be voting in favour of making it compulsory to refer to a psychiatrist when one of the doctors feels there is a need to. Is my hon. Friend somewhat reassured by that?

[Sojan Joseph]

I thank my hon. Friend for her timely intervention. I was going to say that having tabled amendment 1 asking for a psychiatrist to be involved, and having now been through many Committee sittings, I wonder whether I influenced an unconscious bias among Members to table more amendments relating to mental health, capacity and suicide. I say to my hon. Friend that although there can be a psychiatry referral, if we are talking about unconscious bias, as soon as the first and second doctor make the decision that the person has capacity, is terminally ill and is eligible for this process, the subsequent assessments can be influenced by the first assessment. That happens quite often in NHS healthcare, and especially mental health.

When the chief medical officer, Sir Chris Whitty, was before the Committee, I asked him about mental capacity assessments. He said:

“I would hope that most doctors are capable of identifying that someone has some degree…of mental health distress, or mental health illness”.

However, he went on to say:

“What not all doctors will feel comfortable doing is actually deciding whether that is sufficient to interfere with someone’s ability to make a decision with full capacity. That is where help from colleagues from psychiatry, and mental health more widely, is going to be useful.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 38, Q17.]

We have spoken about this many times, but in written evidence the Royal College of Psychiatrists said:

“A person’s capacity can change, and it is decision specific. While we are of the view that a person’s capacity to decide treatment can be reliably assessed, an assessment of a person’s mental capacity to decide to end their own life is an entirely different and more complex determination requiring a higher level of understanding.”

In a previous sitting, we discussed having a panel that is able to do a psychosocial assessment. I know that the new clauses are yet to be discussed, but the relevant new clause does not specify who the members of the panel will be and whether it should include a psychiatrist or a social worker. That is yet to be made clear, so I am not convinced about that.

[Kim Leadbeater]

To clarify, I think it is clear that the panel would include a psychiatrist and a social worker. I hope that reassures my hon. Friend.

[Sojan Joseph]

I thank my hon. Friend for confirming that. That is reassuring but, as I said earlier, I would like to know when the patient will have access to the panel. It is important that they access it early in the process, rather than later, because that is where unconscious bias comes in.

The purpose of my amendment is to save resources, because I know about the pressure on the NHS. Rather than having an additional psychiatrist on top of the two or three doctors, my amendment would simplify the process and save resources.

Although I acknowledge that the evidence I cited referred to the application of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 to the Bill—an issue on which the Committee has already decided—I would argue that it can equally be taken into consideration in this context. After all, in its written evidence, the Royal College of Psychiatrists said:

“Mental disorders, such as depression, are more common in people nearing the end of their life. Delirium is more common… Hopelessness is a common symptom of depression”,

and people’s capacity and consent can be affected when they are going through that condition. I can categorically confirm that I have seen that in my own practice. A person could be absolutely normal, but when they are diagnosed with a terminal illness, that can have an impact on their mental health. We have heard about post-traumatic stress disorder and many other events that can have an impact on people’s mental health and, in turn, on their decision making and capacity.

If the Bill enters the statute book, we should ensure that at least one of the doctors assessing a terminally ill adult who wants to use the legal mechanism to end their life is properly qualified to carry out mental capacity assessments. I know from my own experience that psychiatrists deal with complex mental capacity assessments and other cases every day. For example, psychiatrists who work in accident and emergency departments regularly see people who are intent on ending their life—that is the bread and butter of their work.

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[Naz Shah]

Oh, perfect. I am really pleased that my hon. Friend will accept both amendments 20 and 21, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft. Amendment 21 is about training. Although I welcome the amendments being accepted, my concern is that the amendment for training does not go far enough. We are talking about repeated coercion here, and my hon. Friend’s intention with the amendment was for people to be trained in picking up repeated coercive control. That is very different from domestic abuse, in terms of its manifestation and how it is picked up. From lots of evidence we have received, both written and oral, we know that coercive control is hard to detect. When it is repeated coercive control, it is even harder.

I want the Bill to be strengthened, especially when it comes to minoritised communities and older people. From a safeguarding perspective, the Bill’s impact is very gendered. It is International Women’s Day this week, and this is a very heightened issue. We celebrate women in this place because we do not have equality for women in our systems, across the globe and in this country. From the research and evidence we have had, we know that this Bill would impact more upon women, so it is important that we extend the training. As I suggested earlier, I would be happy to work with my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley to look at tabling another amendment and strengthening this safeguard, because I really want to get this one right.

Although I talked about this earlier, there are some statistics on suicide that I did not mention, which is why I want this training. Only this afternoon, I came across some research from the Kent and Medway NHS trust. In addition to research from last year, it has been found that women will kill themselves when they experience domestic abuse. For the first time, the number of women killing themselves as a result of domestic abuse has overtaken the number of women who are killed from domestic violence in intimate partner relationships. Bear with me—I will return to the research from the Kent and Medway trust in a moment, because I cannot seem to locate the statistics I wanted to point out. Either way, I want to support my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley to get this Bill right.

[Sojan Joseph]

We are talking about a very important issue in relation to training. Most training provided in the NHS, whether on the capacity assessment or domestic violence, is mandatory training that people are expected to retake yearly. Unfortunately, reports—especially the CQC reports—show that NHS trusts across the country are not fully compliant with this training, especially doctors, who are conducting this kind of training very poorly. Does my hon. Friend agree that just introducing training is not enough, and that we have to monitor compliance as well?