Finance (No. 2) Bill

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2013 Commons Chamber

The scheme is certainly a candidate for “Grand Designs”. Although the Opposition support in principle the notion of assistance for those who are looking to purchase a new home, we have questions about the operation of the design. After all, as hon. Members are often more fortunate than many of our constituents, we should probably all declare an interest as participants in the housing market and the mortgage market. It would also be wrong for us to imply that we do not encourage home ownership or that we are always against the notion of second home ownership, given that many of us have two residences, one near Westminster and one in our constituency. Notwithstanding the unusual circumstances of Members of Parliament, it is important that public policy and taxpayer support are focused first and foremost on assisting those without a home to acquire one and on ensuring that we minimise the diversion of taxpayer funds into an unintended subsidy for second homes when helping people with their first homes must be the priority.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

In many parts of the country, although perhaps not in London, the property value being suggested is extremely high. Instead of concentrating on people in the lower income bracket looking for property of lower value, the scheme will be open to people who arguably do not need help to get on to the housing ladder.

[Chris Leslie]

It comes down to whether the Government have designed the scheme adequately. Is it best to have a broad-brush approach, or should we be targeting help at those who need it most? The Opposition favour the latter.

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[Alison Seabeck]

No, indeed. Someone looking at the issue from the outside, rather than from the Government Benches, could cynically suggest that the Government are seeking to build houses and support house building in the south-east rather than in the rest of the country. The figure has far more resonance in terms of trying to get people into the market in the south-east. The issue is not clear.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The figure might be more consistent with house prices in the south-east, but even there someone still has to have a very substantial income to afford a mortgage, even if it is discounted by a shared equity or mortgage guarantee scheme.

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[Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)]

I appreciate the opportunity to speak in this debate, Mr Hoyle, and I shall make my speech very short as I appreciate that two Opposition Members wish to speak. I will speak for about three minutes tops and will rattle off my points as fast as I can.

The first issue I want to raise on new clause 5 is the fact that it refers to property and does not distinguish between residential property and business property. That concerned me greatly when I first looked at the new clause, as it would create huge concerns in the business community. In my constituency of Stevenage, we have some large business interests. GlaxoSmithKline has a huge operation employing 4,000 scientists in Stevenage—[Interruption.] Although the new clause mentions the “mansion tax”, it just states that it would be on “property”.

How would that property be valued? There seem to be two values in property at the moment: the value one thinks one’s property is worth and the value at which someone would buy it. There is always a big disparity between those values. Such a change would lead to a large revaluation exercise across the UK and my concern is that once we have that revaluation exercise, council tax revaluation will be a real problem across the country. A huge number of people will be very concerned about council tax increases if all their properties have been revalued. Council tax more than doubled under the previous Government and I am pleased to say that under this Government it has been frozen for the past three years—[Interruption.] I see the annunciator has just changed to show my name, although I will sit down in about one minute.

My other point is that the new clause also refers to a tax cut for low-income and middle-income earners, and I am proud that this Government have introduced a tax cut that will be worth more than £700 next year for those low earners on up to £10,000. I am sure that the Opposition would agree with the Government that the best way to introduce a tax cut is to have a tax rate of zero rather than the 10p tax rate on which my colleague the hon. Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) had a very robust exchange with Opposition Members.

I shall now sit down as you are gesturing for me to do so, Mr Hoyle.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The test of what is happening is whether the economy will be stimulated. That is the real test that we should keep under review. If we want collectively to stimulate the economy, the most direct way of doing that would be to fund socially rented houses. That would get people into jobs, who would then help to stimulate the rest of the local economy. I do not know whether an ideological aversion to that has brought about the proposals we have before us; perhaps it has, because all the affordable housing the Government seem to want to fund directly is not even affordable.

In this very week, when we are remembering the 1980s and the Prime Minister of that time, we are in grave danger of repeating what happened then. The Government chose to allow housing benefit to take the strain rather than investing directly in housing, which resulted in the problem that we now have a large housing benefit bill. The way this Government are going about even the affordable housing they say they will build, which will not of course truly be affordable, again runs the risk of increasing the housing benefit bill.

We are looking to stimulate the economy with something for which there will probably be no take-up, judging from experience, and it will not benefit the people we should really help. If we do not review this policy quickly, we could be going down a very dangerous road.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

As time is limited, I take this opportunity to pursue with the Minister some of the issues raised earlier by colleagues on the Opposition Benches about how the schemes will operate in Scotland and Wales—outside England. I hope the Minister can answer these questions.

Will the Minister confirm that the mortgage guarantee scheme will apply to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as well as to England? If that is the case, will he indicate which Department will operate it for Scotland and the other devolved areas? If it is to be the Department for Communities and Local Government, I suggest that it would be more appropriate for the scheme to be operated by the Scottish Government or the relevant devolved Administrations.

Would it be possible for the Scottish Government and the other devolved Administrations to amend the scheme to take account of the objections raised, which will no doubt be shared by all of them, that it would benefit the buyers of second homes and people on relatively high incomes? In most parts of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, prices of £600,000 are very much at the higher end of the housing market.

If someone in one of the devolved areas defaulted under the mortgage guarantee, would the cost be borne by the Treasury or the devolved Administration? I appreciate that these are technical questions but I am sure that, as the Minister has thought through the policy in great detail, he will be able to answer them.

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[Nigel Mills]

Am I right in thinking that the second sign of madness is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result? I think that that applies to introducing more and more complexity and assuming that the outcome will eventually be different.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Surely the problem with this line of argument is that it does not establish what is cause and what is effect. The assumption seems to be that the fault lies with the fact that tax is too complicated and that there is too much of it, which somehow encourages people to avoid it. Perhaps a complicated tax system, and many of the regulations that exist, have been made necessary by the very fact that people try to avoid tax.

[Nigel Mills]

The hon. Lady is right. I have not sought to defend those who peddle tax avoidance schemes. It is probably human nature for us all to try to minimise our liabilities. I personally think that we should try to adjust our tax regimes so that they get much closer to taxing the real profit that is declared, rather than allowing a collection of reliefs, allowances, incentives and so forth to provide scope for manipulation of the various circumstances in which people find themselves. However, I accept that people would still try to get round the simplest tax code in the world, and that we would need provisions to stop them.

My amendments are designed to ensure that, if the Revenue uses this power, it uses it to deal with the largest, most outrageous schemes. We do not want it to go around threatening all the small taxpayers who are simply trying to go about their way of life. I was not convinced that the wording of the Bill, and certainly not the wording proposed by the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, would meet those concerns. I tried to provide a de minimis: the tax at stake would have to be above a certain amount before the rules could be applied. That would provide certainty, ensuring that the vast majority of taxpayers would not be subject to some retrospective, random rewriting of the law.

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[Andrew Stunell]

Indeed, it is. There are many propositions made here that are highly desirable, and I would not be at all disappointed if the Front-Bench team agreed to accept amendment 7 and a number of others. The point I am making is that what we need across all political parties in the House, and beyond, is strong consensus in favour of not only continuing our achievement of the aid target, but ensuring that we assist developing nations by getting our tax affairs straight and helping them to do likewise.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The right hon. Gentleman correctly says that we need to keep up our efforts on aid, but if the controlled foreign company rules have potentially lost £1 billion to developing countries, as Government Front Benchers appear to accept, that affects our ability to give aid. Would it not make sense to review whether that is correct, because it might ever be more?

[Andrew Stunell]

Indeed, and I will move on to that shortly. Based on all that has gone before, I think that the Minister will say that the Government have every intention of ensuring that those things happen and that the work being promoted by the IF campaign becomes mainstream in this House and the outcome we all wish to see. I support that campaign and its objectives and am keen for the Government to adopt them and be supportive as well. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for International Development is sitting just in front of me on the Front Bench, and I know that she works very hard on those matters as well.

I do not think that the trinket presented to us in amendment 6 is the core of what we need. I challenge the Government to give an undertaking that the proposals in the Finance Bill will be moved on so that multinationals are required to reveal the tax avoidance schemes they are using in the developing world and developing countries are helped to collect more of the tax they are owed. I pay tribute to the work, which I think was initially promoted by the International Development Committee in the previous Parliament, and which I know this Government have taken up with some enthusiasm, of supporting developing countries to create effective tax systems of their own. I know that the work that has been done in Zambia is seen as a template for other countries around the world. I encourage the Government to move forward in that direction.

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[Kelvin Hopkins]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course, people are now losing their jobs in all areas of the public services. The public services are suffering great stress and the people working in them are being demoralised, and I think that goes even for the senior civil service—I know that certain people at the end of the Chamber would possibly agree with me in that respect.

I must say that the Treasury’s attitude over some decades has been so lax that one has to suspect that it really believes that allowing all the corporates and millionaires to have their money will somehow trickle down and help the economy. That is the sort of economic nonsense that has got us into the mess we are in at the moment. What we should be doing is collecting the taxes and spending in the areas where it is needed.

[Sheila Gilmore]

It has also been argued that despite the harm done to developing countries by the controlled foreign company rules, their application would bring more companies into this country and the wealth would trickle down to the rest of us.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Those are feeble arguments put by people who might have vested interests.

It was interesting to hear the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), who seems to know a lot about these matters, saying the other day, “What about a few prison sentences for people who fiddle their taxes?” That would concentrate a few minds, and I think that is what we should do, as I think it is criminal for people to rip off the public purse as they do to the detriment of us all. The great majority of my constituents, of course, are working-class people who have to pay their taxes through PAYE—they cannot escape, avoid or evade—so I feel angry on their behalf as well.

It is a matter of political will. If we had the will, we could do these things. We would not need to invent schemes that seem designed to fail. If they were not designed to fail, I am sure the Minister would not be frightened of the amendment proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) to have a review in two years’ time. If the scheme were to be successful, the review would show its success; if we collected half of what had been evaded through the Government’s proposed scheme—£16.5 billion or whatever, amounting to 4p on the standard rate of income tax—the review would approve of what the Government had done. If the Government refuse to accept the amendment, they are obviously nervous that their scheme will not be a success. I suspect that they have brought something up that is designed to fail and will help the wealthy and the corporates to continue to avoid and evade taxes.

I do not believe that the Government are genuinely concerned about these matters. If they were, they would take effective action, ensure that it happened through stronger laws and possibly prison sentences for those who break these laws, and collect billions more in taxes. The sort of figures described by Richard Murphy and others are enormous—equivalent to each year’s deficit, about which the Government say they are so concerned. They are cutting spending to solve their deficit problems, but the real problem is not spending—it is that their revenue is too low because they are failing to collect all the due taxes. If the Government were successful in enforcing tax laws so that all due taxes were paid, there would not even be a deficit. They would have enough money to cover it. Let us see the Government take effective action: only then will I take them seriously. Until that time, I shall continue to say what I have said this evening.

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[Sheila Gilmore]

Let me touch on a couple of points, partly arising from last year’s debate on the Finance Bill—particularly about the controlled foreign companies regulations and what happened to them. We are often accused of tabling similar amendments to those tabled before, and we did indeed table amendments asking for a review of the impact of those regulations, particularly on developing countries. We were told that the amendments were not needed because the Government would, of course, constantly review these matters. We were told that asking for a specific review would somehow put extra onus on civil servants and that we should simply have trust in what would happen.

On that basis, I ask the Minister—perhaps in his reply now or at some later time—to tell us whether that review has indeed been carried out and what information is already available to assure us that the reassurances given previously have been brought into play. Otherwise, we are simply being told that we are asking for unnecessary reviews and that all will be done. Let us see if it is done, as many organisations were very concerned about what the impact of those changes would be.

It would also be helpful—we asked about this last year—to know whether many companies have returned to this country and made their headquarters here, as we were promised. We were told that that would produce more income for our Government. We need to know not just what the impact has been on developing countries, but how many companies have relocated, how much tax they have paid, and how many jobs they have created.

I see that you are looking at the clock and at me, Mr Crausby, so, on that note, I shall sit down.