Financial Services and Markets Bill (First sitting)

Sally-Ann Hart Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th October 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)]

I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group on financial resilience.

[Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

My husband and two sons work in financial services.

[The Chair]

Anybody else? No.

We will now hear oral evidence from Sheldon Mills, interim executive director of strategy and competition at the Financial Conduct Authority; Sarah Pritchard, executive director of markets at the Financial Conduct Authority; and Victoria Saporta, executive director of prudential policy at the Prudential Regulation Authority. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme order that the Committee agreed. For this panel, we have until 10.10 am. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?

Sarah Pritchard: I am Sarah Pritchard, the executive director of markets at the Financial Conduct Authority.

Sheldon Mills: I am Sheldon Mills, the executive director for consumers and competition at the Financial Conduct Authority.

Victoria Saporta: I am Vicky Saporta, the executive director of prudential policy at the Prudential Regulation Authority.

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[Peter Grant]

Q Are those comments made within the context that achieving a permanent change in net zero targets is not optional? It is absolutely necessary.

David Postings: The banking industry is 100% behind that transition, but the transition is the important point, not just greening the balance sheets of the firms.

Emma Reynolds: May I add to that? There is a huge commitment from financial services, and we also represent related professional services, in playing a part in enabling the transition to net zero. Financial services and financial regulators are an important part of a much broader picture, which is why green finance is actually led by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, not His Majesty’s Treasury. It is about not just the supply of green finance, but the demand for such products. If we have a transition to net zero, it has to be about every sector pursuing a transition. Financial services has a critical role to play, but that has to be done in tandem with the transition in other sectors too.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q Good morning. Looking at the culture in the regulatory system and the culture of the regulators, do you think our regulators need a culture change? For example, do they need more commercial experience? We are looking at rules. There is a need for speed. Speed is of the essence when trying to make decisions or make things happen. Is that something we need to focus on?

Emma Reynolds: I certainly think there is room for a more commercial mindset in the regulators. This is not just about regulation by the way; it is about operational efficiency. One of the things we have been working on is delays in authorisations for senior managers, which can slow things down. There are other authorisations as well. We are encouraging the regulators to have a more commercial mindset and to be aware of the businesses’ priorities. It is not just about regulation; it is about how efficient they are. If, for example, you want to bring in a senior manager to a bank or other institution in the UK and it takes you 18 months to 2 years, you could be doing that elsewhere, and that puts us at a competitive disadvantage. So, absolutely, we think that there is room for improvement in having a commercial mindset in the regulator.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q And more speed and less regulation.

Emma Reynolds: Proportionate regulation and—we have not got into the cost-benefit analysis panels—careful consideration of the benefits of regulation to make sure that the costs and burdens of regulation do not outweigh the benefit.

David Postings: I agree with Emma. To give a couple of examples, the cost-benefit analysis of the consumer duty had costs but no benefits—no financial benefits. The intent in the Bill to ensure that the FCA and FOS are aligned is really important as well, because it is very difficult for a financial services firm to operate in an environment where we are not clear what the rules are when it comes to interpretation down the line. That makes people cautious, which can add to financial exclusion. The point that Emma made about authorisations is also really valid: there are still significant businesses awaiting authorisation post Brexit from large foreign institutions.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q That causes serious hold-up and affects our economic growth.

Emma Reynolds: And our competitiveness. If that can be done more quickly in another jurisdiction, business might well go there to set up or expand.

David Postings: Fundamentally, what we want is a competitive UK. We are only a small island off the mainland of Europe, but we want to generate big tax revenues to support growth in the economy. Anything we can do to help that is vital. Good, strong regulation is a key aspect of that. A nimble, commercially minded set of regulators to set that stronger regulation is vital.

[Andrew Griffith]

Q We have a few minutes left. One perception is that this is about the City of London. Your members, I assume, hail from all parts of the UK, creating employment and wealth in Edinburgh, Glasgow and some of our other great cities. Will you expand on that a little for the Committee?

Emma Reynolds: Sure. We represent the financial and related professional services industry, which employs 2.2 million people, and two thirds are outside London, contrary the characterisation that financial services are mainly in the City of London. We are the biggest net exporting industry, and more than 40% of our exports come from outside London.

David Postings: Yes, we produce higher-paid jobs, and there are big concentrations in Glasgow, Belfast, the north-east, the north-west and down on the south coast. It is a thriving industry and one that we need to support and nurture.

[The Chair]

We have two minutes left. Any quick questions for a quick response?

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q Very quickly, the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden raised the issue of access to cash and the reduction in banking services. The Bill contains substantial provisions to safeguard access to cash and halt the decline in banking closures and free-to-use ATMs. Do they go far enough? Will the Bill work?

David Postings: Absolutely it will work. This is something that we have been working on. We kicked this off as an industry 18 months ago. I have worked with the Treasury, the FCA and the consumer groups for the past 18 months on this. The aim is to make sure that cash provision for the most vulnerable—indeed, for all of society—is protected. The Bill will absolutely do that—through cashback without purchase, ATMs that are free for consumers to use, post office counters and shared banking hubs. Twenty-five shared banking hubs have been announced so far, and that number will increase. All that will provide the right level of cash access going forward. The banks will be subject to LINK as a body to decide what goes where, based on detailed local analysis, and then there is an operating company that banks own, which will implement the solution.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q Is there anything you want to add, Ms Reynolds?

Emma Reynolds: No. I defer to David. UK Finance provided leadership in this area—that is where the expertise sits.

[The Chair]

Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee.

Examination of Witness

Chris Hemsley gave evidence.

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[Emma Hardy]

Q Do you support data-sharing agreements and things like that?

Chris Hemsley: Indeed. We have work under way to encourage and support that.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q PayPal Europe decided to exit accounts, including those of the Free Speech Union and the Daily Sceptic, and although PayPal reinstated the affected accounts, what happened raised concerns about the protection of freedom of speech in the UK. Are the regulators—you and the FCA—able to address the apparently unchecked ability of financial service operators, such as PayPal, to effect private economic sanctions and censorship in the UK through denial of service actions? Are legislative safeguards needed in the Bill, or in other relevant legislation?

Chris Hemsley: This is principally a matter for the FCA, so it might be best for me to follow up on it in writing, and potentially with the FCA.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

That would be good.

Chris Hemsley: The PSR’s powers allow us to make sure that people have fair access to payment systems. The access to a particular payment firm’s services would be something for the FCA. I am happy to take that away and make sure that the Committee has a reply.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q That would be helpful. Even though they are part of the temporary permissions regime, should operators such as PayPal be subject to the UK’s Financial Ombudsman Service, so that dissatisfied customers can seek redress?

Chris Hemsley: Again, that is more for the FCA, but I can offer you a general view. It is in everyone’s interests that the same risks and regulations apply to people carrying out payments business, including payment systems and payment firms. That is my general answer, but perhaps I could pick that up in correspondence, given that it falls principally to the FCA.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

That would be great; thank you. Maybe we can take that up with the FCA.

[The Chair]

Order. I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the allotted time for this panel. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witness.

Examination of Witnesses

Charlotte Clark and Karen Northey gave evidence.

Financial Services and Markets Bill (Second sitting)

Sally-Ann Hart Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th October 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Peter Grant]

Q Is there a need to specify in the Bill, or to enable in later regulation, a widening of the mandatory compensation scheme to types of scams that we do not yet know about?

Paddy Greene: Yes, I believe there is. It is right that the Bill starts with faster payments—I think 87% of APP scams are run through faster payments. We do not want to delay action. It has taken too long: it has been six years since our super complaint to get to this point, so we must not slow that down. The revisions—the two-month and the six-month provision in the Bill—are ones that we absolutely endorse. As I said, we do not want to slow that down.

We need to make sure, though, that there is an obligation for further action—for example, to look at CHAPS payments. UK Finance figures show that 79 million on CHAPS and on-us payments are already there. We know that scammers and fraudsters are very good at adapting to change, so they will move. I know there have been some debates about what the Bill does or could allow, but we need to make sure there is an obligation so that we know what will happen next. Just because there is provision for the regulator possibly to act in the future, that does not mean the regulator will—there is a lot of pressure on regulatory time and resources—so we would really like to see some clarity on what happens after the changes to faster payments are made. As I said, this is the opportunity to look at the future. We know that change is happening, so we should set out a timeframe for what happens next.

[Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

Q Good afternoon. We were just talking about access to cash and the proposals in the Bill to safeguard access to cash and free ATMs. As an MP who represents a rural constituency, I am concerned about my residents being able to access cash. How far do you think people should be expected to travel to access free cash, or cash? Is it geographically dependent? Would you treat regions separately, on density of population?

Paddy Greene: I think we need community-based solutions. The fact is that it will not be one-size-fits-all. We need to recognise that communities have different challenges. When we look at the voluntary solution that the industry has put in place, it accepts that, first, we need not only a geographical spread but a community access point. We need the ability for communities to request a review of access in their areas.

Secondly, we need a raft of delivery channels. That again gets to the point of what is fit for purpose. An ATM might well be suitable in one town, but it might not be suitable for another town for a variety of reasons, be that geographical or the demographics of that part of that society. I do not think it is one-size-fits-all. It is very important that we get the policy statement from the Treasury soon, so that we and you can scrutinise properly what the close details will be, but it should be a basic geographical spread, with the option to interrogate further those who are not captured by the geographical spread and to ensure that we do not inadvertently leave people behind.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q So you are not necessarily specifying a mileage.

Paddy Greene: We need to acknowledge that if, let’s say, you came down to a certain kilometre base that might sound reasonable in broad terms, it would under-serve some communities, so we need to be alive to that.

[Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)]

Q I thank Which? for all the work it has done about the imperative of free access to cash. I do not think any of us are surprised that the Post Office announced that it had £3.45 billion taken out in cash in August, which is the highest figure since its records began. Does the Bill ensure that people will have free access to cash, or is there a need for an amendment to be very specific about that?

Paddy Greene: I think we need to be specific about the need for consumers to have free access to cash. I have concerns that the Bill could be interpreted in a way that undermines those objectives. We absolutely welcome the provision of cash legislation and I am very happy to see it here, but this is our opportunity to get it right. Consumers need confidence that they will have free access.

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[Peter Grant]

Q A number of transparency and anti-corruption campaigners regularly say that London has become or is in the process of becoming one of the go-to locations of choice for money laundering and similar activities. Is that a concern that you think is grounded in fact? Or is it just an urban myth with nothing behind it?

William Wright: I will have to fall back on saying that it is not something I have specific expertise on. I have opinions and views. I have recently read some of the works by Oliver Bullough on different aspects of this—“Butler to the World” and “Moneyland”—and it made me quite angry to read them, but it is not an area where I can claim any professional expertise to answer a question in this setting.

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q Good afternoon. I will pick up on a few things in respect of the competitiveness of the UK financial markets. Our competitiveness is really important for our economic growth; do you think the Bill goes far enough with regard to the deregulation of existing EU rules? When it comes to new regulation, does the Bill enhance the ability of Britain’s financial services to be agile and dynamic and to look at the best possible outcomes? We are very good in Britain at gold plating our rules and regulations, so we need to make sure we are not putting ourselves on the back foot and can be the most competitive, agile, dynamic market.

William Wright: That is sort of the trillion-dollar question, isn’t it? On EU rules, the Bill and the huge amount of work that the Treasury and others have done over the past three years address the obvious low-hanging fruit—the obvious areas of EU regulation and the framework that were not appropriate for the UK market, which has a unique dynamic within the EU. Most of those areas have been well addressed in the Bill.

On looking ahead at competitiveness, the Bill does create a more agile and nimble framework. By definition, one would hope that the UK can act more swiftly than the EU, and we are already seeing some signs of that. Again, it gets the right balance by making competitiveness a secondary objective and not a primary objective. It gets the right balance to ensure that it is something considered by supervisors and regulators but not something that overrides the fundamental purpose of supervisors to ensure a stable financial system that is competitive within itself, and where customers get appropriate protections.

We need to be very careful, in the debate on competitiveness, about assuming that competitiveness is a mechanical outcome of regulation and tax. One of the lessons we can take from the last few weeks is that a very important element of competitiveness is credibility, predictability and the robustness of independent institutions. It is important to bear that in mind when we talk about competitiveness.

In the short term, the biggest competitiveness threat to the UK—this comes back to the Minister’s opening question—is probably from additional pushback and pressure from the EU as it requires more EU business to be conducted inside the EU. We have this interesting dynamic: the UK is increasingly focusing on making people want to do business in the UK because it is an attractive environment, whereas the EU in many areas is trying to attract business by requiring people to do it there. We also need to be very careful in this debate—

[The Chair]

Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank our witness on behalf of the Committee.

William Wright: Thank you.

Examination of Witnesses

Robert Kelly and Robin Fieth gave evidence.

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[The Chair]

Thank you. Does anybody on the Government side wish to open the questioning?

[Sally-Ann Hart]

Q It is not a general question, but I want to ask about push payment fraud and APP. If we set a specific amount for APP fraud reimbursement, would a suggested £1 million limit encourage fraudsters to try to act like the victim? Would a limit set that high be an incentive for fraud?

Mike Haley: Yes. One of the issues with a contingent reimbursement model in any compensation scheme is that it is not a fraud prevention initiative in itself; it really just says who suffers the risk of the fraud. It passes the individual loss on to the banks. The emphasis is on a large amount that you could get away with without thinking that you have taken it out of an individual’s pockets; a faceless bank will pay up to £1 million. Any limit of that size reduces any moral questions a fraudster might have about who they are stealing money from.

[Tulip Siddiq]

Q Thank you for coming to give evidence. You do not need me to tell you the amount of money directly stolen from people’s bank accounts through fraud and scams—a record high of £1.3 billion, as you will know. Why do you think we have reached that amount?

Mike Haley: There are three interconnected reasons why scams have reached such frightening proportions. First, the reach of social media and online platforms means that scammers and fraudsters can reach millions of people—marks and vulnerable people—much more effectively.

Secondly, we have seen organised crime turn its hand to fraud because it is a low-risk, high-return crime. Their skills have grown in something called social engineering, which is how they to persuade someone that they are calling from the bank or from the police by impersonating others. They have become very skilled in that.

Thirdly, faster and instant payments mean that once a fraud has been successful, and you mandate a payment through your bank account, it is very hard for banks to tell that that is a fraudulent transaction, because it has been mandated by the customer. Then, there is a network of money mule accounts, which are either accounts that have been set up for those proceeds to go through, or accounts belonging to people who have been duped into allowing their accounts to be used for that money to go through. Instant payments mean that that is untraceable very quickly. I remember investigating a mass fraud—[Interruption.]

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Sally-Ann Hart Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 7th December 2022 Commons Chamber

To conclude, we welcome the Bill in principle, but there are real weaknesses in its drafting—primarily, the lack of parliamentary oversight and the missed opportunities in promoting green finance and tackling fraud.

[Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

In 1215, the Magna Carta was written and signed into law by King John I of England. Although that important document did not guarantee freedom of speech, it was considered the cornerstone of liberty in England and began a tradition of civil rights in Britain that laid the foundations for our first Bill of Rights of 1689, which granted freedom of speech in Parliament.

That was the first time in history that any form of freedom of speech was codified in law. It was extremely influential throughout the western world, leading to the declaration of the rights of man in 1789—a fundamental document of the French revolution that provided for freedom of speech—and the US Bill of Rights in 1791. In 1948, the universal declaration of human rights was adopted virtually unanimously by the UN General Assembly, and urged member nations

“to promote a number of human, civil, economic, and social rights”,

including freedom of expression. Under article 10 of the Human Rights Act 1998,

“Everyone has the right to freedom of expression…subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society”.

Criminalising the incitement of violence or threats, for example, is widely considered a justifiable limit on freedom of expression.

What we cannot have are global tech firms, online payment services, banks and others deciding who they can censor because they do not like or are offended by the views of others. It is essential to have freedom of expression—it is essential to society—and we have to be able to express and discuss differing ideas and ideals to ensure that we have a full and therefore better understanding of the challenges we all face in this modern world.

Freedom of expression in the UK is under threat and must be protected. New clause 27 protects free speech and the exercise of free expression. It seeks to prohibit service refusal by financial service providers on grounds relating to lawful exercise of free expression by requiring providers to explain the reason for a refusal of service, allowing the Financial Conduct Authority to intervene, and creating a civil law remedy for affected customers. We should not allow a system where payment service providers or even high street banks can terminate the accounts of individuals or organisations on the basis of lawful speech if adequate notice is given. Britain has led the world for centuries on democracy and freedom of speech, and it needs to do so again against the global tech companies that want to impose their view of the world and stifle free speech.

Members may remember in early September media agitation surrounding PayPal’s decision to cancel the online payment accounts of the Daily Sceptic, the Free Speech Union and an individual’s personal accounts. Many of us here may not agree with the politics of these organisations or that individual, but it is fundamentally wrong that online payment accounts can be exited because the payment service provider or its staff do not agree with the opinions of the service user. We are not talking about hate speech, terrorism or crime—we have legislation to deal with that; we are talking about lawful speech.

The relatively recent digitalisation of financial transactions has placed an unprecedented amount of power in the hands of online payment service providers such as PayPal, as well as banks, credit companies and online platforms. UK legislation must keep pace with these rapid technological changes and financial censorship must be prevented. As we switch to an increasingly cashless society, we must put in legislation to protect people from being punished by payment processors for expressing legal, but different views, no matter our politics.

New clause 27 is designed to ensure that the regulator has the ability to ensure that financial service providers cannot withdraw or withhold service from a customer on political grounds. The battle to preserve free speech in our society is something we must all fight for. Rising political polarisation is contributing to the threat to our freedom of expression, and the alternative—placing power in the hands of the easily offended—cannot be an option. This issue has to be of grave concern to us all, whatever our politics. I am grateful to the Minister for his assurances earlier, spelling out what he is going to do and his commitment to take this matter further. There are plenty of colleagues who will hold him to that.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

I rise in support of new clause 10, and I am pleased to have worked alongside the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) on it, as fellow members of the Public Accounts Committee. Since 2017, I have worked with others supporting steelworker pensioners across Blaenau Gwent and the United Kingdom. Thousands of them fell victim to financial sharks. They were wrongly advised to move out of their defined benefit British Steel pension scheme. It took until last Monday, five years later, for the Financial Conduct Authority to announce a redress scheme. It was about time. The FCA righted those wrongs, but I think too late.

Early on in the campaign, I remember meeting the then chief executive of the FCA, now the Governor of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, where I was met with a lacklustre response. Along with my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) and other campaigners, I continued to press the FCA. In 2020, I wrote to its newly appointed chief executive, however Mr Rathi did not want to meet. He asked one of his directors to meet us instead.

Later, in 2021, frustrated with the FCA giving us the cold shoulder, I wrote to the Comptroller and Auditor General of the National Audit Office. I asked if it would please investigate the FCA’s oversight of this terrible scandal. Fair do’s, the NAO did that, and it published its full report in March this year. It observed that in the summer of 2017:

“The FCA had limited insight into…what was happening in the BSPS at the time of its restructure.”

There were terrible things going on.

Even more damning were the conclusions of the Public Accounts Committee. We found that:

“The FCA failed to take swift and effective action at all stages of the BSPS case.”

It failed

“to prevent consumers from being harmed”,

which makes clear the

“limitations with the FCA’s supervisory approach”.

The point is that the FCA took proper notice of this injustice only when Parliament, through the NAO and eventually the Public Accounts Committee, dug deep to investigate.

Of course, the BSPS case is not the only example of the FCA’s failure to protect consumers in recent years; I have heard many complaints from Members across the House. The scandals surrounding Blackmore Bond, Dolphin and Azure come to mind. Consumers are our financial sector. As long as the FCA fails to exercise its powers to protect ordinary workers, it will continue to fail our constituents. New clause 10 would require the FCA’s consumer panel to lay an official report before Parliament. We could then judge whether the regulator is fulfilling its duty to protect consumers.

During my 12 years in this House, I have learned many things, but one thing stands out: parliamentary scrutiny matters. I am pleased to have support from across the House for the new clause—from our Labour Treasury team, senior Conservative Members, the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, Treasury Committee members, other colleagues and fellow members of the Public Accounts Committee. By supporting our new clause, Britain’s consumers could be better heard, and our financial services sector would be all the better for it.