Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Consideration of Lords amendments
Thursday 23rd May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

This is an historic day. It has been a great privilege to be the Minister for the Bill, and I thank our officials for moving with lightning speed to get it to this point, only five months from when the process commenced. I also thank Members in all parts of both Houses for their co-operation and their collegiate approach to the Bill, including the Opposition Front Benchers, who have provided great support, which we greatly appreciate. I thank the Justice Secretary, my Department’s Secretary of State and the Prime Minister—the Bill would not have been possible without their support.

This is an historic day because, as a result of the Bill, convictions will be overturned on Royal Assent. With His Majesty’s agreement, that means they will be overturned tomorrow.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

Along with the contaminated blood scandal, the Horizon scandal remains a terrible stain on our nation’s recent past. It is one of the greatest miscarriages of justice in our nation’s history, and over the course of the debates on the Bill we have heard the testimonies of victims, and the lies and obfuscations of those who were responsible, expressed by Members across the House. That has rightly made Members of both Houses and the public deeply frustrated and angry at the injustice that sub-postmasters and their families have faced.

It is right that the Government have introduced legislation to exonerate those who have suffered for so long, and the time provided for the Bill today allows us to ensure that it is concluded. We must not lose sight of the task at hand during this wash-up, and we must ensure that the hundreds of innocent people who were wrongfully convicted get the justice that they deserve, and the compensation and exoneration that they desperately need. The Opposition have supported the Bill, and we support the independent inquiry and wish to see it continue its work. Even this week, with the testimony of Paula Vennells, shocking new information has been revealed, and we will continue to push for justice for the victims.

At previous stages, the Minister provided assurances that he would ensure that cases from the Capture IT system are looked at, because this Bill does not cover the wider extent of the scandal, and that the company responsible for Horizon, Fujitsu, and its executives will honour the commitment that they made to provide compensation, rather than leaving it to taxpayers to do so. I hope he can update us on any progress he has made since giving that undertaking in the House. This Parliament will soon dissolve, but Ministers of the Crown carry on for a few more weeks. I hope the Minister will make every effort to ensure as much progress as possible is made, so that the families receive the redress they desperately need.

In the other House, the Labour Front-Bench spokesperson highlighted Lord Arbuthnot’s desire to see those convicted by the Court of Appeal included in the Bill before us. At the time of speaking, the Government opposed that. We are sympathetic, but we nevertheless remain opposed to Parliament becoming, in effect,

“the appeal court for the Court of Appeal”.

We would, however, support appropriate proposals to give the 13 people not covered by the Bill the opportunity to seek redress in the courts. I hope the Minister is able to look at what might be done to work with Lord Arbuthnot to find a satisfactory solution for those 13 cases.

In conclusion, I am grateful to colleagues from across both Houses for the work they have done, particularly the Members of Parliament who worked so tirelessly to ensure that the plight of sub-postmasters and their families was raised. Their work highlighted that in this and other scandals, such as the contaminated blood scandal, it is the constituency connection and our relationship with the people we represent that is often the most powerful insight into seeing injustices early on, and seeing broader patterns that expose major failures in our system, be that in the contaminated blood scandal or the Horizon scandal. The message is very clear: whoever and whichever party is in power, Ministers, civil servants and those in positions of power must listen very closely and not dismiss the concerns of Members of Parliament who raise those cases, which can expose a bigger pattern of injustice, or the citizens we represent.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Before I call Marion Fellows, I note that earlier today Kevan Jones announced that he will not be standing at the next election. On behalf of all the victims, I thank you, Kevan, for the doughty fight that you have put up on behalf of them all. You have been absolutely amazing in what you have done. You are sitting next to Jackie Doyle-Price—I knew it was only a matter of time before she crossed the Floor. More amazing things have happened recently, so it doesn’t surprise me.

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The right hon. Member does tremendous work on the Horizon redress advisory board, which is the reason we are here. Victims of this horrendous scandal want to see two things: redress paid for their losses, and people held to account. Both those things will be achieved because of his work and that of the noble Lord Arbuthnot. I do not believe that either of those things would have happened had they not worked as hard as they have. The shocking evidence to the inquiry this week has been revealed because of their work, and we should be grateful to them. I concur with the right hon. Member: many people are cynical about this place, or people’s motivations for entering it, but people enter this place to try to do some good and make change for the better. He has, both Houses have, and it is my pleasure to have been a part of it, too.

[Rushanara Ali]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to thank a number of colleagues who are stepping down. As has been mentioned, the Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), is stepping down. I thank him for taking the Bill and this work to the point that he did. I also thank the Deputy Chief Whip for the Labour party, my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Holly Lynch). I discovered today that she is stepping down, and I am pretty gutted.

Most crucially, I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). As others have pointed out, his work has been profound, along with that of Lord Arbuthnot and all the sub-postmasters involved in this important, powerful campaign. Again, I am very saddened that he has decided to leave the House, but I know that he will be a tireless campaigner to ensure that, whoever is in power after the general election, the work continues and victims get the justice and exoneration that they need. We are all incredibly grateful for the work that he has done with others across the House, and with the wider campaign. As has been pointed out, it is campaigns such as this that highlight the power of our democracy, and show it, and our political representatives, at their best. Kevan is the epitome of that, along with other colleagues who have exposed other scandals, working with their constituents. I thank all my colleagues across the House, and the Minister for the work that he has done on this important issue.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

This is such an emotional time for us, today and tomorrow. Holly, I did not know. We wish you well for the future. We will miss you greatly, but do not be a stranger, please. The same to you, Kevan.

Lords amendment 1 agreed to.

Lords amendment 2 agreed to.

Draft Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Monday 13th May 2024 General Committees

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. The statutory instrument will extend the validity of EU product standards, known as CE or European conformity, in the UK indefinitely. When the UK left the European Union, the Government intended to replace, as the Minister pointed out, the CE standard with the UK’s own UKCA. Like so many of the Government’s Brexit promises, it has fallen by the wayside when meeting the cold reality of what it actually means.

Under current law, all firms would have to begin using the new UKCA mark by 1 January 2025, because recognition of the EU’s CE regime is due to expire by the end of this year. The Government have already postponed the deadline twice, but, as we have heard, the statutory instrument will remove the expiry date altogether, meaning that the CE scheme will now be valid indefinitely. The move has been welcomed by industry, with many businesses and trade associations speaking in favour of the Government’s change in direction due to the need to avoid a dual testing and standards regime for businesses that operate and trade in Europe.

It is good that the Minister is taking pragmatic action. It is a shame his predecessors had not done it sooner because that would have saved businesses a great deal of work in setting up a parallel system and wasting much-needed resources that they could have invested elsewhere. The British Chambers of Commerce described the Government’s move as a “welcome change in direction”, and techUK stated that the move was a

“positive step that will make it easier and cheaper to place products on the GB market.”

The Labour party welcomes the changes as they will make it easier for firms to trade with our European neighbours, reduce operating costs for business by mitigating the need to comply with two regulatory regimes, and help protect prices for consumers. The instrument’s impact assessment lays out a fairly compelling, as the Minister pointed out, justification for the intervention. The Government predict that the benefit to business of maintaining the validity of the CE regime will be £558 million, but that gives rise to the question why, before the announcement of this U-turn, the Government had pursued the removal of the CE’s validity with such persistence, despite the obvious problems it would present for businesses, trade and consumers. I hope the Minister can address that. I appreciate he was not in place at the time, but perhaps he can address the points because they are relevant to his Government.

The ongoing uncertainty has been disruptive to businesses as they have had to prepare for this ever-moving cliff edge —in some cases re-designing and re-manufacturing products to replace the CE mark with a UKCA one. Many firms will understandably feel as though they have wasted money, while other firms will likely have held off investments because of the policy uncertainty and the fact that they have had to spend money complying with this parallel system. What has changed? Why did the Government continue to insist for so long that businesses work to this superficial cliff edge, which created needless hassle, only now to pull the plug on the whole plan? What assessment have the Minister and his Department made of the overall cost to business of preparing for the parallel UKCA process, as opposed to sticking to the CE process that we are now reverting back to?

As welcome as this move is for businesses, it is far from ending the uncertainty for firms. Two critical questions remain. First, will the Minister confirm that this statutory instrument’s removal of any expiry date for the CE regime’s validity means that there will be no subsequent attempts to reinstate an expiry date? Secondly, do the Government intend to modify or water down the existing UKCA regulation, thus effectively creating a two-tiered regulatory system for firms and consumers to operate in?

I speak regularly to businesses, their representatives and intermediary organisations, and many have deep concerns about the state of the business environment, particularly in recent years, the lack of consistency and clarity in policy, and the constant chopping and changing. That is set out very clearly in proposals and changes resulting from Brexit uncertainties, and this is yet another example of that. Although this particular decision is welcome, the fact is that this should never have happened. It would have been far better if the Government had stuck to the CE regime that they are now reverting back to, rather than letting businesses waste so much time, energy, money and effort in addition to the burden they already faced.

The Government’s dogmatic, ideological approach has been really damaging for businesses, and they are fed up with it. It is good that the Minister has responded and we will support this SI, but I very much hope that he will look at other provisions containing needless disruptions. We need a pragmatic approach to support businesses rather than an ideological one that damages them and their ability to generate growth and power our economy.

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[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank hon. Members for their contributions, I will deal with the key points raised. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow, talked about a dogmatic, ideological approach and about the Government persisting in travelling in the same direction, but admitted in the same breath that we have twice changed the deadline on the CE marking, and we have now changed it again to make it indefinite. As will always be the case with the Conservative party, we are for business because we are from business; we listen to businesses and we are pragmatic. As I said earlier, we have had 46 roundtables and engaged with 200 domestic and 50 international businesses. As the facts change, we change our mind, and it is important that we reflect the needs of businesses.

The hon. Lady talked about wasted money, but this money has not been wasted, in that the UKCA regime still applies and is still available to businesses that want to place goods just in the GB market. We have not legislated permanently never to reintroduce the UKCA marking; we are very much taking a case-by-case approach to sectors and products that we feel will benefit from a UKCA marking rather than a CE marking.

The point I would put back to the hon. Lady is that, as is often the case with the Opposition, we hear lots of criticism from people standing on the sidelines, but they do not have any definite plans themselves. Is she saying that she would not have a UKCA marking? Is she saying that she would permanently adopt a CE marking, which would mean she would have to settle for dynamic alignment? I am interested to know what her approach would be, so perhaps she could set it out when she addresses these points in future. [Interruption.] Does she want to intervene?

[Rushanara Ali]

Yes, I would be happy to. If the hon. Gentleman wants to get the Prime Minister to call a general election, I would be very happy to set out what the Labour party would do if we were in government, but he is the Minister. I have acknowledged the positive role he personally has played, but his predecessors were moved around—week after week, in some cases—and businesses unfortunately had to deal with industrial-scale uncertainty. As he will have heard, that was extremely damaging for confidence and made it hard for businesses to operate. I have separated out his role from those of his predecessors and previous Prime Ministers, and I hope he can acknowledge that I have been fair in the way I have reflected on it versus what happened before, but I call on him to call a general election so that the Labour party can get going and deliver for business.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

That is slightly above my pay grade, but I acknowledge what the hon. Lady said about my role. I have been here 18 months, and I am pleased to have been in the job, but I also have great respect for my predecessors.

The hon. Member for Walthamstow described what has happened as an unmitigated disaster for businesses. I would point out that the UK is now fifth in the global league table for trade; it was sixth, but we have just gone past France. We are the fourth largest exporter in the world; we were seventh, and we have again gone past France. We are third in terms of GDP growth, whether we look at the period since 2010, since the pandemic or indeed since Brexit. We are the second largest exporter in the world of financial services. We have the largest number of unicorns in Europe—businesses that have gone from start-up to a $1 billion valuation—and twice as many as France and Germany combined. So there are many, many positive things that the hon. Lady might reflect on rather than looking at the difficulties she describes for businesses.

I think the hon. Lady said that we should dynamically align with everything the European Union does and that that would be helpful for business. Let me point out some of the things that she would forgo if she took that approach: the move to digital labelling on a voluntary basis, which businesses greatly welcome; the changes we have made to things such as the working time directive, holiday pay and GDPR, and to the product safety regulations, which will make it easier for businesses to comply with those regulations; the Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill, which will hold big tech companies to account to help small and medium-sized enterprises, in a completely different and we think much better way than the EU; free trade agreements with 73 countries, including Australia and New Zealand; and accession to the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership and thus one of the largest growing markets in the world. None of those things would have been possible had we stuck in the European Union, as the hon. Lady wanted, or continued with dynamic alignment with European Union rules. She asked whether we will continue to dynamically align. We will take that on a case-by-case basis. The UKCA mark is still there where we decide to diverge from the European Union.

I did not get the hon. Lady’s point about the net benefit. The net benefit is set out quite clearly in the impact assessment: £64.8 million in the first year and £558 million over a 10-year period. I am happy to write to her if she wants to write to me—

Oral Answers to Questions

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

Shoplifting cost UK retailers £1.8 billion in 2023, the highest figure on record. The Government’s £200 shoplifting threshold has effectively decriminalised this offence, which is costing businesses dear. What discussions has the Minister had with the Home Secretary about scrapping it, as Labour plans to do, so retailers and customers are protected and high street businesses can thrive?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

It is not true to say that we have decriminalised thefts under £200. The hon. lady needs to speak to police officers and her local chief constable to make sure she understands how this works. I have worked very closely with the Home Office and the Policing Minister to make sure we have a retail crime action plan, which includes a vexatious offence with more severe sentences for people who assault shop workers. We have got an action plan together and it is working well with retailers, and I am very keen to see her support that plan.

[Rushanara Ali]

Well, it is not working, and the Minister and the Secretary of State should take this seriously, because it is damaging our high streets and causing huge concern up and down the country. He and the Secretary of State should go and meet those businesses, and hear from them directly.

Turning to another issue, we have seen 14 years of Conservative under-investment in public infrastructure, a failure to provide certainty and a failure to get a grip on the economy. Business investment has also suffered. Had it matched the average investment levels of France, Germany and the US, our GDP would be nearly 4% higher today, and wages would have been boosted by £1,250 a year. Can the Secretary of State outline how she plans to fix this crippling investment gap, and what will she do to make sure businesses get the support they need so that we can get the economic growth this country desperately needs after 14 years of under-investment?

[Kemi Badenoch]

I remember a time when Labour Members were telling everyone that we should not invest in nuclear, and it is under this Conservative Government that we are investing in nuclear infrastructure. That has only happened under Conservative Governments. The hon. Lady asks about the plan. I would remind her about the global investment summit we had in November, which raised nearly £30 billion in one day. No one is better than our current Prime Minister at delivering inward investment for this country. Business investment is rising, and it is rising because of the policies that he and the Chancellor have put in place, such as capital expensing.

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Committee of the whole House
Monday 29th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Like other Members, I will not speak for very long. In this instance, I actually mean that. I will speak to new clause 1 in my name and those of my colleagues, and new clauses 3 and 2 in the names of the Secretary of State and my colleagues. The Minister will really have an opportunity to dine out on all the thanks and gratitude. It is not given lightly. He has shown something that the public constantly tell us is absent from this place: honour. He has been completely honourable with the people of Northern Ireland in this matter.

Whenever my right hon. Friends the Members for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) raised the matter in the Chamber, they consistently asked for Northern Ireland to be included. From day one, the Minister was consistent in saying that he would use his best endeavours to do that. Sometimes we hear those words and it is only acknowledged in the breach, but he was absolutely clear that he was going to do it. There were ups and downs in the process, but every effort was made to ensure that, on a cross-party, cross-ministerial and cross-legal-jurisdiction basis, the consistent message came back to the Minister that this was the way to resolve the issue. Accepting the instruction this evening was a clear indication that that would happen.

New clause 1 is now superfluous to requirements. It has been incorporated in the Government’s own new clauses. We welcome that and thank the Government for it. Sub-postmasters across Northern Ireland will know that they are being treated exactly the same, with the same opportunity for fairness and to receive compensation, as their colleagues in England and Wales. I hope it is not inappropriate to thank the Clerks’ office. I really want to draw attention to how, frankly, brilliant they are in helping us to ensure that new clauses are drafted correctly. That made it easier for the Government’s team to then accept what we had tabled. Without the Clerks’ help, we would not have been as successful. It is only appropriate to acknowledge that.

I know from speaking to some of the victims that they are extremely grateful. They were wound up a bit from time to time by the media, who told them, “Northern Ireland is being excluded. You’re not going to get it,” even after we had the commitment from the Minister. Thankfully, tonight postmasters in Northern Ireland will see justice, and I thank him for that. I will therefore not press new clause 1 in my name.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

It cannot be repeated often enough that the Horizon scandal remains one of the greatest miscarriages of justice our nation has experienced. It is a scandal characterised by abuse of power, the mistreatment of innocent people and the wholesale failure of the entire system. We might blame it on a failure of IT, but that is not the whole story. It is human failure on a grand scale—a failure to listen, and a failure to learn. It is a failure by the powerful to listen to sub-postmasters, and it has had a catastrophic cost in reputation, income and suffering on hard-working, innocent sub-postmasters and their loved ones.

Sub-postmasters are people we rely on, at the heart of our communities—the people who serve us, help us and hold our communities together. Without the tireless campaigning of people such as Alan Bates, the relentless efforts of parliamentarians across the House, and the work of journalists and filmmakers, perhaps justice would have never been done. To them I pay tribute, and I extend my gratitude to the Minister for the work that he has done, from the Front Bench as well as from the Back Benches. We have heard horrific stories of sub-postmasters who took their own life because of the suffering, and stories of shame, pain and suffering for sub-postmasters, as well as their families and friends.

Labour supports this unprecedented Bill, and we believe that it must pass into law with the necessary urgency, given the gravity of the situation. This has been said already, but it is crucial that this Bill should not set a precedent. It is an exception. We must understand the weight of this action, so that it is never even considered again. The legal solution in this Bill is a wholly exceptional and isolated case. These necessary actions are being taken to match a miscarriage of justice unprecedented in both scale and impact. The Bill must not set a precedent.

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[Rushanara Ali]

I thank the Minister and the Secretary of State for their remarks. Today’s Bill, as has been acknowledged, provides an important step forward in bringing justice for sub-postmasters. They have suffered more than we can imagine, as the Secretary of State has pointed out. That has included unjust prison sentences, bankruptcy, ostracisation from communities, family breakdown and homelessness. Tragically, the scandal has led to some sub-postmasters taking their own lives. Today by no means makes amends for what they have been through and the suffering their families have endured, but it is an important positive step.

We welcome, as I have said previously, the fact that today’s Bill will bring particular relief for the 27 Northern Ireland cases and ensure that they receive exoneration. The many stories we have heard of those affected, whether in this debate or in previous statements and debates, are just snapshots of the scale of suffering that the Horizon scandal has caused. It has been a scandal defined by the abuse of power, secrecy and delay. As others have acknowledged, we have seen the inquiry revealing yet more challenges and yet more issues, whether those relate to the cases referred to today, non-disclosure agreements, the speed with which action is taken, the particular abuses that we have seen or much else. While this Bill has a particular focus, it will not be enough.

As I said earlier, I welcome the actions the Minister is taking to address the concerns on Capture. I welcome the clarification he has made on Pathway and the assurances he has given to Members on both sides of the House on the speed of providing the necessary compensation and on ensuring that this Bill remains a unique provision, given the unique and extraordinary situation that sub-postmasters have experienced and the injustice they have faced.

We look forward to seeing progress on the action that will be taken to deliver the compensation that sub-postmasters desperately need. We look forward to working with the Government to make sure that the Post Office is fit for purpose, because frankly what we have seen from this scandal and what has been uncovered over the period that the Post Office has presided over it and its implications has exposed major failings that we urgently need to address. We must ensure that the institution is fit for purpose, that further scandals do not hit that institution and that more people do not suffer. What we have seen does not inspire confidence, and action must be taken. I look forward to working with Ministers to help achieve that.

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill (Instructions)

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Monday 29th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

The Horizon scandal is one of the most egregious miscarriages of justice in British history, and it has robbed sub-postmasters of their lives, their liberty and their livelihoods. We welcome the Government’s inclusion of Northern Ireland in the territorial scope of this Bill following our representations, including on Second Reading.

We agree that sub-postmasters in Scotland who have been victims of this devastating scandal need urgent exoneration and compensation as much as cases in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. I want to commend the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) for her work in tirelessly campaigning for victims across the United Kingdom, especially in Scotland, and her work in the APPG. However, the case of Scotland’s inclusion provides a unique set of issues. Unlike in Northern Ireland, there has not been united support for Scotland’s inclusion in the Bill. Both the Scottish judiciary and a number of MSPs have publicly opposed this course of action.

[Marion Fellows]

Does the hon. Lady agree with me that many people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland have vociferously opposed the Bill, but actually understand, as people do in Scotland, that it is necessary and that it is a pragmatic solution to a situation that has been going on for far too long?

[Rushanara Ali]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but the reality is that this is a very unusual Bill, and there are serious issues, which we will go on to debate, about the separation of powers between the legislature and the judiciary.

In a context where, as I have said, there is disagreement between the judiciary and the legislature in Scotland, we believe it is not appropriate for the United Kingdom Parliament to overrule the Scottish judiciary. It should be for Holyrood to make that call and pass a mirror Bill. Therefore, we intend to abstain on this motion to include Scotland.

Draft Accounting Standards (Prescribed Bodies) (United States of America and Japan) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2024 General Committees

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I welcome the regulations, which correct an error. A mistake was made, as the Minister has described. Of course, we support this correction and support regulations that aim to enhance the attractiveness of the UK as a domicile for businesses. We must ensure that the UK remains an inviting destination for businesses. We must continue to work towards making our country an important destination for businesses to do business and somewhere they feel welcomed, and our legal arrangements must be such that that is the case.

The 2015 regulations provide to US and Japanese-listed parent companies an extended transition period of up to four financial years, after incorporation in the UK, to convert to UK accounting principles. We support the objective of the regulation to encourage US and Japanese-listed companies to re-domicile in the UK. As the Minister set out, regulation 4 of the 2023 regulations was laid incorrectly, under the negative resolution procedure, and today’s legislation corrects that error. Parent companies are therefore not subject to any enforceable obligation to note their group accounts under the existing, incorrectly laid regulation. I am glad that the new instrument corrects the mistake.

Driving growth in the UK must be one of our top priorities. To enable that, we need to ensure that we attract inward investment. I therefore welcome the correction to the regulations, which ensures that the aim of the process of overseas companies integrating into the UK is fulfilled.

Draft Economic Growth (Regulatory Functions) (Amendment) Order 2024 Draft Growth Duty: Statutory Guidance Refresh

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2024 General Committees

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley.

I thank the Minister for introducing the draft proposals, which will cover three of the UK’s regulators, Ofwat, Ofgem and Ofcom. As the Minister set out, the regulations we are considering concern the growth duty under section 108 of the Deregulation Act 2015, which requires particular regulators to consider how best to promote economic growth as they exercise their core functions. We recently saw the growth duty expanded to the financial services regulators, the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority, as part of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2023, and there are now more than 50 regulators bound by the growth duty.

This draft legislation will see the growth duty expanded to Ofgem, Ofwat and Ofcom, and will therefore mean that those regulators will also have to consider how their functions can promote economic growth. I would be grateful if the Minister could set out some of the lessons learned from the experience of the regulators that already have the growth duty built into their objectives.

Labour recognises the importance of the water, energy and communications sectors to our economy and the vital role that the three regulators under discussion play in shaping those sectors. We agree in principle with the need for those regulators to formally recognise their role in contributing to economic growth where viable. However, as I am sure many colleagues will agree—the Minister has already alluded to this point—such a move has the potential to create frictions or opposing and competing demands on regulators as they carry out their core regulatory functions. We must make sure that we strive for sustainable economic growth that is forward looking, inclusive and based on strong and secure foundations.

As the Minister will be aware, where the competitiveness duty was introduced in the regulation of financial services, there were extensive discussions, which as members of the Treasury Committee he and I were a part of, about making sure that the regulator’s primary objective of stability did not conflict with that of competitiveness. Much work has been done and lessons have been learned about how to make sure those things happen appropriately and do not cause confusion within the regulatory system, as well as out there in the market.

I am sure it has not escaped Members’ attention that, of the three regulators under consideration, Ofwat is already under significant scrutiny and pressure. Last year saw the highest number of sewage discharges on record. There will, rightly, be public concern that additional duties, while welcome, should not create an additional set of pressures that are hard to deliver on. I hope the Minister can shed more light today on how the regulators can fulfil existing duties as well as the new duty.

After 14 years of this Government being in power, the sewage scandal has resulted in waters and open spaces across the country being polluted with filthy raw sewage. Not one English river is classified as being in a healthy condition. None meet good chemical standards and few meet good ecological standards. Environment Agency data shows that sewage has been dumped every 2.5 minutes since 2016. Not only have the Government allowed the water companies to dump sewage and neglect our vital water infrastructure, some of the companies responsible have been rewarded, through allowing shareholders to receive dividends and water bosses to pocket bonuses. I know this is not the Minister’s direct responsibility, but I hope he will take note of the public concerns about the need for strict regulation to make sure standards are met and people do not suffer the consequences of neglect.

Given the pressures on Ofwat, can the Minister tell us how confident he is that it has the appropriate resources to not only fulfil its current duties but also respond to the growth duty? Does it and the other regulators have the expertise within their institutions to be able to focus on the growth duty? If we want the growth duty to be effective and successful, it is important that the people within those institutions are able to work with the industry and with Government to make sure that it is meaningful.

The economic impact assessment estimated that the familiarisation costs of the growth duty would have some resource implications. Will the Minister make those resource implications clear? Can they be met within existing budgets or are additional resources needed? Will they be provided?

I also seek assurances from the Minister that the regulator’s core consumer and environmental responsibilities will not be jeopardised by this move. I am assured by some of the points that he has already made, but could he say more about precisely how his Department and other relevant Departments will work with the regulators to make sure that they have a clear understanding of the need to meet their respective commitments and obligations?

Understandably, many respondents to the Government’s consultation shared concerns, with 25% opposing the changes. To that end, while we welcome the Government updating the statutory guidance, as the Minister has referred to, to clarify how the growth duty should fit within the regulators’ existing obligations, it would be helpful to have more information on precisely how that will be done. Given the delicacy and importance of regulators’ roles in policing their various sectors, how do the Government intend to closely monitor the impact of these changes in a timely manner?

As an example related to Ofcom, could the Minister imagine a situation where the expanded growth mandate could result in the green light being given to a takeover that could compromise our national security and a free and fair media, or lead to one provider dominating the media landscape? He will be aware of examples where foreign Governments have sought to buy stakes in our media, and so on. Are there provisions in place that cover those concerns and that he is comfortable with? If not, what further steps can be made to reassure the public that the growth duty, while welcome, necessary and helpful, needs to be applied appropriately to protect our free media and national interest?

We on the Labour Benches recognise the importance of a long-term plan to grow the UK economy, particularly after such a long period of sluggish growth. That is why we have made securing the highest sustained growth in the G7 the central mission of a future Labour Government. However, it seems that this has only recently come to the fore for the Government. Why have the three regulators been added on now, rather than at the time the growth duty was introduced? There may be very good reasons. It would be helpful to understand better. Is it because the Government wanted to do further preparatory work with the regulators before introducing the growth duty? Were those regulators considered earlier on, when the others were first introduced?

In summary, we support this instrument, but urge the Government to meticulously monitor its impact and effectiveness in delivering long-term growth, and to ensure that the safeguards are in place to make sure that the regulators fulfil their primary objectives, although those are not framed in the same way. Is there a differentiation between primary and secondary objectives, as was the case for the example I mentioned earlier, or are they parallel objectives? Are there issues about competing demands on the regulators?

--- Later in debate ---

[Rushanara Ali]

I asked the Minister about the primary and secondary objectives, and whether he sees any parallels in how these changes are thought of—I know this is about having due

“regard to the desirability of promoting economic growth”.

Does he think there is a parallel with the way that the competitive duty has been applied?

There is a potential tension to be managed in how regulators think about the importance of sector regulation and the Government imperative to promote growth. When regulatory officials think about our priorities, they might err on one side or the other, and that tension could be a problem. Does he feel that more work is needed to emphasise how the measures are applied, so that consumers do not suffer while we try to promote growth?

We need to do these things in tandem, so that we do not end up with a false economy, where damage is done to the economy through protections and standards that then cost the taxpayer a significant amount. That would leave us in the worst of all worlds, and is surely something that all different parties want to avoid.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I do not disagree with anything the hon. Lady says. This is a parallel objective, not one that should replace the current objectives. It is a consideration for regulators. It is about not just obviating the risk, but looking at other factors. Investment is hugely important for our consumers and our citizens. This draft order is not about one thing or the other—for example, it will not replace the environmental duties of Ofwat. Indeed, the Environment Agency, which has had this duty since 2017, has issued about £150 million in fines to 60 different companies, so this is not about backing off on environmental protections. The hon. Lady raises an important point, however, and we have committed to reviewing how these measures will affect the general regulatory regime to ensure that there are no unintended consequences, although we do not feel that there will be, as long as the right balance is struck.

Of course, regulation must be used only where absolutely necessary, and must be implemented in a way that provides the right foundations for our economy to thrive. The purpose of the duty is to ensure that the specified regulators give appropriate consideration to the potential impact of their activities and decisions on economic growth, alongside their consideration of other statutory duties. It does not create a hierarchy over existing protections.

With that, I believe I have addressed all the questions posed by right hon. and hon. Members, and look forward to the Committee’s support and commendation of the order.

Draft Post Office Network Subsidy Scheme (Amendment) Order 2024

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2024 General Committees

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I thank the Minister for outlining the details and explaining why this statutory instrument has been brought to Parliament today. Since the exposure of the Horizon scandal, Labour Members have sought to work with the Government while applying the necessary scrutiny to ensure the most effective process for the wrongly accused sub-postmasters to receive the justice and compensation they deserve.

We will continue to provide the necessary scrutiny and critique where necessary, both in the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill as it continues to progress through Parliament, and this piece of secondary legislation. I hope the Minister will not have too many objections. As the Minister has pointed out, the cap has been raised by the Government from £500 million to £750 million, and we do not oppose their reasons for doing so. I would, however, like to press the Minister on a few outstanding points.

The annual limit on the Government’s Post Office funding stood at £160 million until 2011, when the cap was raised to £500 million, and has remained unchanged. We can see the rationale, given the context of what has happened recently, of increasing the cap to £750 million. As the Minister has laid out, the Government have pointed to the range of factors that risk breaching the current £500 million spending limit: the focus on the compensation for sub-postmasters relating to the Horizon scandal, the funding for the replacement of the Horizon IT system, and the ongoing financial demands to keep the branch network operating given the cost pressures and the economic climate.

It is good to hear the Minister highlight the 6,000 rural branches. In discussions that I have had with sub-postmasters since I took on this position, it is very clear that there are huge pressures, and we have seen the closure of a number of post offices in different communities. I am sure the Minister will understand the unease many will feel about this uplift, given the recent scandals and the role of the Post Office in that context. That is not to say that the network of sub-postmasters, who have been doing such a phenomenal job around the country, is at issue. It is about management, leadership and many of the issues that have been exposed in the recent scandals, such as the removal of the chair and the other recent issues that have come through over the course of the inquiry hearings. That is what the public are hearing about regularly.

It would be helpful if the Minister provided some assurances. He has mentioned compensation, and his answer to the right hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire was helpful. Can he explain roughly what those allocations might be, perhaps later if he is not able to explain today? Should that uplift be used, does he have in mind the kind of amounts intended for the compensation scheme, the Horizon replacement scheme and the wider network? Will those allocations strike an appropriate balance in providing that? Will that be sufficient or will there be a need to provide further uplifts?

The other issue that sub-postmasters have raised with me in discussions is a general concern about a bonus culture at the Post Office, as well as the wider culture at the senior management level and the tick-box attitude to sub-postmaster engagement. That is a snapshot of impressions that I have received, but it would be useful to know what discussions the Minister is having with the broader organisation, as well as management, about how that uplift will be used, and to receive an assurance that the uplift is going to be used properly and effectively.

The public will want to know that the uplift—the Minister may well be able to answer this right now—will not be used to provide bonuses and increase remuneration for people in senior management. As we have heard recently in the public domain and in the media, as well as in a Select Committee hearing in February, pay and remuneration issues have come up quite a lot. It would be helpful if the Minister can reassure us that this uplift is not about that.

I hope that the Minister will accept the spirit of another point I want to make. It is a wider point that has come up—I know he is doing a lot of thinking on this—about reform of the Post Office and tackling the wider sets of issues about institutional culture, the governance of the organisation and learning the lessons of what has been exposed through the Horizon scandal. Of course, there is much more work to do in following up the outcomes of the inquiry report. While we support the uplift, I hope that the Minister can address some of those questions. If he is not able to address all of them today, I hope that he will be able to do so subsequently.

I would like to ask a few questions about Fujitsu. As the Minister has sought the uplift in relation to the compensation programme, I would like briefly to turn to the specific issue of funding and his assurances about seeking to recover funds from Fujitsu, given its role in the Horizon scandal. As we all know, the tech giant’s faulty Horizon IT system is at the heart of the Horizon scandal. Its senior executives have already accepted moral responsibility, but it remains unclear what role it will have in the compensation process. As I think most Members will agree, it is only fair that Fujitsu at least contributes to the compensation funding, rather than leaving the British taxpayer to foot the entire bill. This is particularly pertinent given that Fujitsu has held Government contracts worth more than £3.4 billion since 2019. Many have raised this issue over the past weeks and months. I raised it on Second Reading of the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill, and my colleague Lord McNicol raised it in the Lords when this SI was debated.

Based on previous Government responses, I think it is fair to say that the Government do intend to seek payments from Fujitsu, and we look forward to working with the Minister and his team to continue the pressure to make this happen as quickly as possible. However, we remain somewhat in the dark over how much progress has been made. It would be really helpful if the Minister outlined whether he has a timeline in mind for when payments will be made, how much progress has been made, and whether he requires cross-party support in getting the job done, with the total cost of compensation likely to be upwards of £1 billion. If the Minister is not able to provide further answers today, could he provide them in writing?

In conclusion, I thank the Minister for the work he has been doing and look forward to working with him to provide the necessary support to the post office sub-postmasters and their network to ensure that it is stabilised and gets the support it needs. The compensation programme is there to support victims as quickly as possible. I also look forward to working with him to ensure that Fujitsu is made to pay for what it is ultimately responsible for.

[The Chair]

I remind Members that the scope of the Bill is setting a new cap on spending of up to £750 million. I call the SNP spokesperson.

Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 20th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

We are now over two decades into this scandal, with the victims still suffering the ongoing consequences of this injustice: unjust prison sentences, bankruptcy, ostracisation from communities, family breakdown and homelessness. Tragically, as we have heard, this scandal has led to some people taking their lives. According to the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry, at least 60 sub-postmasters had died without seeing justice or receiving compensation as of 10 August 2023, and at least four had taken their own lives. All our thoughts continue to be with their families.

This scandal has been a seismic tragedy at every stage. The mental toll and stress that victims have faced is beyond what many of us can begin to comprehend. This scandal has been defined at every turn by an abuse of power, disregard for sub-postmasters’ lives, the passing of blame and perpetual delay.

This Bill is an important step forward in addressing the greatest miscarriages of justice in our country. It will mean that hundreds of innocent victims will have their rightful innocence returned to them. However, this is just one of a number of actions that need to be taken to make amends and to correct this terrible injustice. We need to see convictions quashed, compensation delivered urgently and justice sought from the independent inquiry.

Along with other colleagues, I pay tribute to Alan Bates and the many sub-postmasters who have campaigned and worked tirelessly to see justice. This Bill marks an important victory for sub-postmasters, and I pay tribute to their bravery and perseverance in the face of so much suffering and adversity. They have had so much taken from them, and yet they have kept fighting. This is truly remarkable, and it is wonderful to hear the tributes that have been paid by so many across the House and also across our country.

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for all his work fighting on behalf of sub-postmasters, and to Lord Arbuthnot for his years of work on tackling this injustice. I also thank the Minister for postal affairs, the Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), for all his work, from the Back Benches as well as from the Front Bench. There have been many Members across the two Houses who have highlighted the injustice suffered by sub-postmasters, and I extend the Opposition’s appreciation for the work they have done and for the cross-party nature of the campaigning that has gone on thus far.

I think we can all agree that the influence of the ITV drama “Mr Bates vs the Post Office” has been very significant in this campaign. The Minister has done a huge amount of work, but there is no denying that that programme has brought to the attention of the wider public the scandal that has affected so many sub-postmasters. However, it should not have taken the release of that drama to get to where we are today. This is in no way a criticism; it is a recognition of the fact that certain scandals have needed that wider attention from the media, from programmes and documentaries, before attention is received. But we are where we are, and it is encouraging to see the steps that have been taken.

This Bill will quash the convictions of the sub-postmasters and others who worked in the Post Office branches who suffered as a result of the Horizon scandal. As has already been said, and I further stress, the quashing of these convictions must not set a precedent. The Bill undermines a key part of our democracy, the separation of the legislature and judiciary. As has been said earlier, it is a constitutional anomaly. We must understand the weight of this so that such action is never considered again. The legal solution of this Bill is a wholly exceptional and isolated case, where these necessary actions will be taken to match a miscarriage of justice unprecedented in both scale and impact. As the shadow Business Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), has made clear, an incoming Labour Government would never use this kind of action again.

I echo the comments on the territorial scope of today’s Bill and restate that the Labour party supports the calls to extend the provisions of the Bill to the cases in Northern Ireland. Every party in Northern Ireland and every Minister in the new Assembly is calling for their inclusion in the Bill. Their exclusion will sadly only delay the exoneration of victims in Northern Ireland all the more, so I hope the Minister will seriously consider this decision and what can be done further, and take on board the points that have been made by hon. Members including my hon. Friend the shadow Business Secretary.

We have heard many powerful contributions in today’s debate, and there is broad agreement on the Bill’s necessity. The right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Sir David Davis) highlighted his misgivings, and he described the Bill as representing

“the best of a bad job.”

Of course, he extended his support and highlighted the Bill’s unprecedented nature.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne) made the case for speed in granting compensation. My right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) raised important concerns about the potential limitations of setting deadlines for paying compensation. While ensuring the proper handling of complex cases, I hope the Government will take those points into consideration.

My right hon. Friend also raised important points about the need for the judiciary and the Government to learn broader lessons from this scandal so that they can be applied to other scandals, a number of which have been mentioned in the debate, including the contaminated blood scandal and the Windrush scandal. It is encouraging to see such eagerness to reflect and learn so that things do not have to go this far before being addressed.

The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) has been a tireless advocate and campaigner for justice for sub-postmasters, and she rightly highlighted the need to continue our laser-sharp focus on supporting victims. She and others in her party relayed, once again, the concern that Scotland has been left out of the Bill.

The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) spoke powerfully about his time as postal affairs Minister. As he is standing down, I commend him for his work in the Department and for his wider cross-party work on a number of issues, including Myanmar with me and many other colleagues. We wish him well in his future endeavours. Like others, he raised the need to learn lessons and to ensure that, when we say that scandals of this scale must never happen again, we truly ensure that they never happen again.

The hon. Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker) spoke powerfully about his career as a sub-postmaster. He brings insight to this debate and the campaign, and he reflected on how he has supported his constituent who has faced trauma, and how he has drawn those lessons into the Minister’s work. I was struck by the way in which he reflected on the wider issues.

The hon. Gentleman said that work is needed on the Post Office’s culture in tackling wider systemic issues, and he said that the Post Office is “losing its soul”. As we look to the future, I hope the Government will consider how we make the necessary reforms so that the Post Office is fit for purpose. He rightly said that Fujitsu needs to be held accountable, and that it should pay compensation. Although that is outside the scope of this Bill, the Minister and others need to ensure that Fujitsu pays for what was caused by its technological failures.

The right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) made a powerful case for those whose appeals have been rejected, and he argued that their cases need to be reconsidered. I know that the Minister has responded and will look at those issues closely. The right hon. Member also made the point about territorial scope, reinforcing the point about the need for Northern Ireland to be included in the Bill. The point about the 12-week consultation has been made consistently, as it means that the 27 or 30 Northern Irish cases will face huge delays. That means further suffering, so it is important for the Government to consider including Northern Ireland, as we have called for.

The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) made the case for the Scottish Government to introduce legislation in parallel in Scotland. Much work has been done in Scotland and the case for needing to work in parallel, in lockstep, to ensure that there are provisions in Scotland has been made. The hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) spoke about prosecutions that should never have taken place. Once again, he made the case for Northern Ireland’s inclusion and for avoiding delay.

We have heard many powerful testimonies from victims who have said that they lost decades of their lives to this scandal. Katie Downey, who set up the group Lost Chances for the Children of Sub-postmasters to support the children of some of the victims of the scandal, said that when her father was made bankrupt by the scandal she was 11 years old and her family had to flee to France. She stopped speaking for two years as a result of the trauma; her childhood was shaped by this injustice. We must not forget the wide-reaching impact of this scandal on family members. There are children, spouses, parents, close friends and neighbours who have not only journeyed with the victims, but suffered themselves and lived out the consequences of this injustice.

Seema Misra was jailed on her son’s 10th birthday, while she was pregnant, after being pronounced guilty of stealing £74,000 from the post office she ran—she had been wrongly accused. Ms Misra and her husband had been trying for a baby for eight years and what should have been one of the happiest moments of their lives became a nightmare. She was put under suicide watch in prison and describes how she reached “rock bottom”. Those are only two stories of the horrors that have defined the lives of victims.

Today, I thank colleagues from across the House for powerfully sharing the examples of the cases they have dealt with, be they those of constituents or cases they have come across through their campaigning work. I also thank colleagues for the tireless work they have done in advocating for those people, telling their stories, talking to Ministers and persisting. These people’s stories and voices must be central in shaping our next steps in the pursuit of their compensation, of justice and of their exoneration. We welcome this crucial piece of legislation, but it is by no means anywhere close to an end point. It is merely a further step in the right direction in securing justice for the sub-postmasters.

We support the work of the independent inquiry in uncovering the full and precise truth of all that has unfolded in the Post Office. Truth and justice has been denied to sub-postmasters at every turn, and I hope that the inquiry will finally provide the transparency that is desperately needed. There is much still to be done in the pursuit of justice for sub-postmasters, and we must all continue to support them and do all we can to right the many wrongs they have suffered.

Draft Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 (Consequential, Supplementary and Incidental Provisions) Regulations 2024 Draft Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 (Financial Penalty) Regulations 2024

Rushanara Ali Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2024 General Committees

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I start by thanking the Minister for outlining the case for these regulations. I am sure those colleagues who worked long and hard on the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023 welcome its implementation and the ambition to stamp out economic crime.

I begin with the consequential, supplementary and incidental provisions instrument. This technical instrument will ensure that company law applies coherently by making amendments to other primary and secondary legislation and ensuring that the law operates effectively and consistently for all registrable business entities. It will help strengthen the role of Companies House. It is not forecast to have a material impact and amends various existing laws to enact the 2023 Act, effectively tidying up existing legislation. As such, we are content to support the regulations.

I turn to the financial penalty regulations, which will allow the registrar to impose fines on a person if satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that they have committed misconduct, as opposed to resorting to penalties via the criminal justice system. Thus far, the only civil penalty regime operated by Companies House is the late filing penalty regime. In that situation, a company faces an automatic penalty if it fails to submit its accounts within the designated timeframe.

This new regime will operate in conjunction with potential criminal sanctions and will allow the registrar to decide whether to pursue a pathway of financial penalty or criminal sanction. Compared with criminal prosecution, we recognise that civil financial penalties provide a less costly and time-consuming process to hold people to account and to punish wrongdoing. I am conscious that, when the 2023 Act was going through Parliament, this change in the implementation of penalties sparked some debate. However, we are content to support these regulations.

I have one question for the Minister about the support being provided to Companies House. Could he provide some assurances that it is getting the back-up and resources to make sure that it can fulfil its very important role?

I thank everyone for their time in helping to implement these regulations. I know we all want to achieve the shared goal of improving the effectiveness of the way that we tackle and punish economic crime.