Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill (Instructions)

Marion Fellows Excerpts

Monday 29th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)]

I beg to move,

That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill that it have leave to make provision relating to Scotland.

At the outset, let me say that if I cry this afternoon, it is not because I am upset; it is because I am angry and feel got at by other parties in this place, which are determined not to bring Scotland into the Bill.

This morning, Robert Thomson, Chris Dawson and Keith Macaldowie—three sub-postmasters—travelled from Scotland to be here to listen to the reasons that Scotland should not be included in the Bill. Unfortunately, there were two urgent questions, a statement and a train break-down, so they have had to go back and could not be here to watch the people in this House hold the fate of their exoneration in their hands.

There are huge legal misgivings about and potential constitutional implications to the Bill, as legal authorities across the United Kingdom have said. However, to use the words of the Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake):

“We recognise that this is an exceptional step, but these are exceptional circumstances.”—[Official Report, 10 January 2024; Vol. 743, c. 302.]

Postmasters across the United Kingdom want this exoneration Bill to succeed, as do those of us on the SNP Benches. It must succeed; we need to get the exoneration through this place in order that convicted sub-postmasters across the United Kingdom can claim compensation and redress for what they have suffered.

I have before me the witness statement from Robert Thomson, who, during his court case, had to sit down with his two young sons to tell them of the real possibility that he would have to go to prison. How awful is that? How awful it is for all the other sub-postmasters who have had to go through the very same experience?

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend talks about going to prison. My constituent lost her liberty, her good name, her house, her marriage, her family—her whole existence—because of this situation. She has had to move to my constituency —a life on her own. The Government are denying my constituent the justice she deserves. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is utterly shameful?

[Marion Fellows]

“Utterly shameful” does not even begin to describe it.

Right up until quite recently, the Government said that they would include Scotland in the Bill, but they have decided not to do so for spurious reasons. Today, I have been talking to sub-postmasters, and I have invited Scottish MPs to come and speak. The main reason some Scottish MPs, whether they are Liberal Democrats or Conservative Ministers, did not want to include Scotland was that the First Minister said that he did not want to see criminals exonerated when they were guilty. No one wants that—[Interruption.] I have heard the Minister himself say that previously in this House.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

I admire the passion with which my hon. Friend is speaking on behalf of sub-postmasters. Does she agree that part of the sense of insult upon injury is that there is no proper explanation as to why Scotland cannot be included, so it looks like petty partisanship? And I have to say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that that is borne out by the chuntering, sniggering and laughter going on behind me as my hon. Friend speaks.

[Marion Fellows]

My hon. Friend is right: I am passionate about this. As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on post offices, I have deliberately worked on this issue, across parties, for years—I have worked with everyone. Indeed, when I wrote to the Prime Minister at one point, I had signatures from every party, including from a Member of Sinn Féin, a party that does not attend the House.

I have also heard it said today that the Lord Advocate does not want this. Well, at no point has the Lord Advocate taken a view on proposed legislation either in Westminster or in Holyrood. The Lord Advocate is not responsible for bringing cases of miscarriages of justice before the court of appeal in Scotland.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I have worked with the hon. Lady in her role as chair of the APPG, and I commend her for her work over many years. The point about the Lord Advocate is surely that the route to justice must go through the Scottish Parliament, because the route to prosecution went through the Scottish Parliament. That is where the route of accountability lies. [Interruption.] There was some talk about chuntering earlier, but it seems to go in more than one way. I refer the hon. Lady to the comments of the Lord Advocate in the Scottish Parliament on 16 January. If the Lord Advocate really wants the Bill to proceed, she could say so in terms herself. [Interruption.] Chunter on, boys.

[Marion Fellows]

I do not think that was an edifying intervention.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

Will my hon. Friend take an edifying intervention?

[Marion Fellows]

Yes.

[Joanna Cherry]

Is my hon. Friend as surprised as me that the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), a former prosecutor, does not understand that prosecutions do not go through the Scottish Parliament? The prosecution service in Scotland is completely independent of Parliament. That is a fundamental aspect of our constitution. Is she as shocked as me that the right hon. Gentleman does not understand that, and does she agree that the fact that he misses such a fundamental point rather undermines the force of his argument?

[Marion Fellows]

I thank my hon. and learned Friend for making that point. The body responsible for bringing miscarriages of justice before the court of appeal in Scotland is the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission, which is not under the spell of the Lord Advocate. That argument is spurious to say the least.

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Is she aware of the evidence given by Professor James Chalmers of the University of Glasgow to the Justice Committee a couple of weeks ago? He was asked this very question, and he said that in his view, it was better that the legislation goes through this place with legislative consent motions in the Scottish Parliament, because it is tied directly to the UK compensation scheme for this area.

[Marion Fellows]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Yes, I am very aware that the regius professor of law at the University of Glasgow made that very point to the Justice Committee. There has been widespread disquiet; I think the Chair of that Committee, the hon. and learned Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), would agree that no one in the legal profession really wants this Bill. It is breaking all precedent, but for a really good reason.

Postmasters have suffered. Robert Thomson, the postmaster who was going to be sitting in the Gallery, was convicted in 2006 while his mother was still alive. He is the man who had to talk to his sons and tell them, “I might not be here tomorrow.” He did not go to prison, but he could not get a job that gave him the income that he had when he was a postmaster. He has been in penury, his life has been turned upside down, and his children have suffered enormously. That is the case for so many sub-postmasters across the United Kingdom: they did nothing wrong, yet people were pointing at them in the street and whispering. Another sub-postmaster who was going to be in the Gallery watching us all today had to move back to his hometown because, five years later, he heard people in the supermarket saying, “There’s the guy who stole from the Post Office.” This kind of thing never leaves those victims—they will carry it to their dying day. Robert Thomson’s mother died before her son spent two years going through the Scottish courts to be exonerated.

Every time I have been in this place when any legal issue comes up, I am told that this Parliament is sovereign. Well, prove it: put the provisions of this Bill into Scotland-wide use as well. [Interruption.] Members can stand at the back, smile and snigger, but I mean it—it is absolutely disgraceful that you are saying to Scottish sub-postmasters who were convicted that they cannot get justice at the same time as their English, Welsh and Northern Irish counterparts. This is a Westminster problem. Westminster must and should sort it out, and it is easily done. Ask for a legislative consent motion, and you will get it. The Scottish Parliament will put a Bill through to exonerate these postmasters, but it cannot do it—it cannot mirror exactly what is done in this place—until this Bill has gone through all of its stages.

[Joanna Cherry]

Having regard to the evidence of Professor Chalmers, who of course is regius professor of criminal law at Glasgow University—that addressing this problem would be best done in this place—does my hon. Friend agree that we often hear sanctimonious lectures from the UK Government about how Scotland’s two Governments should work together to benefit Scotland? This legislation deals with a problem made on the UK Government’s watch; is it not the perfect example of an issue on which Scotland’s two Governments should act together, with the UK Government taking the lead in the same way that they have done for Northern Ireland and the Scottish Government consenting, so that we can get justice done swiftly for Scottish postmasters and postmistresses in the same way as it has been done for other people in this glorious Union that Tory Members are always telling us about?

[Marion Fellows]

Yes. I was appalled, upset and disturbed by the fact that the Scottish Government had been trying to contact Westminster Ministers to get this Bill to cover Scotland as well, and there was no comeback and no correspondence—nobody bothered. One afternoon, within a two-hour period, the Minister—who I greatly admire, as he knows; I have a very good working relationship with him—was able to phone the Northern Irish First Minister, Deputy First Minister and Justice Minister.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. I have met the Scottish justice Minister twice online; the reason I met the Northern Ireland Ministers physically is that they came here to Parliament to meet us.

May I push back on something that the hon. Lady said a few moments ago? She said that this Parliament is sovereign. Absolutely, it is sovereign, but on these matters, her Parliament is also sovereign. [Interruption.] Clearly, as she said earlier in her remarks, there is legal controversy on these matters—she has admitted that herself. This Parliament is taking the legal risk in that area, but is the hon. Lady aware of her Lord Advocate’s position on this particular matter? These are her actual words:

“It is important to recognise that, in Scotland, there is an established route of appeal in circumstances such as this…and that due process must be followed.”—[Scottish Parliament Official Report, 16 January 2024; c. 14.]

Does the hon. Lady not believe that in that situation, her Parliament should act to overturn these convictions?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I am quite anxious that we do not have too many long interventions so that, if hon. Members want to catch my eye, there is plenty of time for debate.

[Marion Fellows]

Madam Deputy Speaker, I hate to disagree with you—as you know, I do not do that—but there will be no more time for some Members to speak on this Bill if it does not include Scotland. In his intervention, the Minister said that the Scottish Parliament is sovereign—well, there is a surprise. We on the SNP Benches all want Scotland to be sovereign, but it is the people who have sovereignty in Scotland, not the Parliament.

We are dancing on the heads of pins, Madam Deputy Speaker, which is not my intention. It is very clear—so clear that it is transparent— that party politics is involved in all of this. Six days ago, the Secretary of State for Business and Trade described the Scottish Parliament as lazy, and asked why it did not put through its own legislation. Believe me, it can and it will if it has to, but why should Scottish postmasters wait longer for justice? On Second Reading in this place, I said that there was likely to be to-ing and fro-ing, and that it would probably be July before this Bill is passed.

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

On behalf of my constituents who have been affected by this scandal, I thank my hon. Friend for the astonishing amount of work she has done in this area. Is it not the case that, while it would certainly create issues for the legal officers in Scotland if Scotland were included in this Westminster Bill, a Bill in the Scottish Parliament would create exactly the same issues for them? The concern for legal officers on both sides of the border is that they do not like it when parliamentarians overturn the decisions of the courts, but it has to be done this time, because some of the postmasters will not live to see their compensation if we do not get on with it soon.

[Marion Fellows]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I heard the Minister chuntering from a sedentary position that Scottish Ministers should take responsibility for this.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

indicated assent.

[Marion Fellows]

They will, but they did not cause the need for this Bill. This is a Westminster issue and should be sorted out here.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I am incensed—people may have realised that. This is not fake anger: this is a real issue for those men who came down here today. They were representative of the 100 sub-postmasters and mistresses in Scotland, and we have not even started to talk about the effect on their families and those who have died. Two years it took Robert Thomson to go through court, during which time his mother died, and it is the same story right across all the postmasters who have lost family members, and postmasters have committed suicide. This has to be sorted.

I go back to my original point. Scottish postmasters will be behind the curve when it comes to applying for the due compensation they are entitled to if they are not exonerated at the same time as the rest of the postmasters in the UK. This is a piece of nonsense. Get it done for Scotland. The Government have done it for Northern Ireland. Get it done for Scotland.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

I thank the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) for her remarks and her engagement. It has always been a pleasure to work with her both in the Chamber and in other areas. Yes, we have worked cross-party, and I have been very keen to do that all the way through on these matters, but that does not of course mean we always agree.

I was very grateful to have the opportunity to meet the hon. Lady earlier with the Scottish postmasters she referred to. I am sorry that they have not been able to attend this debate. However, at that point I was able to explain to those postmasters why the Government oppose this motion, as our position remains unchanged that this Bill should not be amended to include Scotland.

[Marion Fellows]

I just want to ask the Minister: what did the Scottish postmasters say to you—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. The hon. Lady knows she must not refer directly to the Minister in that way, but do so through the Chair.

[Marion Fellows]

I beg your pardon, Madam Deputy Speaker. What did the Scottish sub-postmasters say to the Minister this afternoon? Were they pleased, were they happy and did they feel they were getting justice through this action?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I listened to the postmasters very carefully, and of course they would prefer us to legislate in the way the hon. Lady describes. I set out very clearly the reasons why we would not do so, and I think they heard the concerns we raised about how we think we should proceed.

Scotland has a historically separate legal jurisdiction, and the Lord Advocate and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service have a unique role in prosecutions in Scotland. We feel it is more appropriate for the Scottish Government to bring forward proposals to address prosecutions on this matter in Scotland, and for those to be scrutinised by the Scottish Parliament. The First Minister has previously made public comments suggesting that the UK Government’s approach to the criteria in our legislation was too broad in relation to the convictions it would quash. He is reported, in The National on 27 March, to have said that he wanted

“to make sure that people who have genuinely committed a crime…do not then have access to…compensation.”

We have been clear from the start that there is a real risk of that happening with our approach.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

The Horizon scandal is one of the most egregious miscarriages of justice in British history, and it has robbed sub-postmasters of their lives, their liberty and their livelihoods. We welcome the Government’s inclusion of Northern Ireland in the territorial scope of this Bill following our representations, including on Second Reading.

We agree that sub-postmasters in Scotland who have been victims of this devastating scandal need urgent exoneration and compensation as much as cases in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. I want to commend the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) for her work in tirelessly campaigning for victims across the United Kingdom, especially in Scotland, and her work in the APPG. However, the case of Scotland’s inclusion provides a unique set of issues. Unlike in Northern Ireland, there has not been united support for Scotland’s inclusion in the Bill. Both the Scottish judiciary and a number of MSPs have publicly opposed this course of action.

[Marion Fellows]

Does the hon. Lady agree with me that many people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland have vociferously opposed the Bill, but actually understand, as people do in Scotland, that it is necessary and that it is a pragmatic solution to a situation that has been going on for far too long?

[Rushanara Ali]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but the reality is that this is a very unusual Bill, and there are serious issues, which we will go on to debate, about the separation of powers between the legislature and the judiciary.

In a context where, as I have said, there is disagreement between the judiciary and the legislature in Scotland, we believe it is not appropriate for the United Kingdom Parliament to overrule the Scottish judiciary. It should be for Holyrood to make that call and pass a mirror Bill. Therefore, we intend to abstain on this motion to include Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Carmichael]

I am intrigued to know what that final question about shutting down the Scottish Parliament is about, but it is open to the Scottish Parliament to deal with such matters through an emergency procedure. That would be sensible, and it would bring sub-postmasters across the whole United Kingdom to exactly the same place at the end of the day. That can be done in a matter of days, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware. We have heard from others that the legislation is drafted and ready to go, so as a matter of politics, what is it that the Scottish National party does not want to admit?

[Marion Fellows]

As far as I am concerned, and as far as the SNP is concerned, politics does not come into this. It is about getting justice for Scottish sub-postmasters and postmasters across the rest of the United Kingdom at the same time.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I want to make it clear that interventions need to be questions to the person making the speech.

[Marion Fellows]

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Lady has got it!

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab)]

I start by paying tribute to several people across this House from a number of different parties. When I arrived here last year, I could tell they had already been working hard on this issue, including my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows). There is consensus across the House that this huge injustice must be righted. The question, as we have heard from a number of people, is how that is done in Scotland, and that is what I want to speak to briefly.

I want to make two points. First, there is the question of speed, which we have heard about a number of times, but more importantly, there is the question of accountability. Accountability is important. The Scottish Parliament has responsibility for justice in Scotland. Scotland has always had a separate legal system—since long before the Scottish Parliament was re-established—and, as we have heard, there are the questions of the Lord Advocate’s position, of how convictions were taken forward not by the Post Office by but by the Crown, of the basis of evidence used—

[Marion Fellows]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

That is absolutely right. The key point is that there is no question about the Post Office being held to account for the institutional levels of cover-up—

[Marion Fellows]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Michael Shanks]

May I just make the point and then I will give way? The Post Office must be held to account for that institutional cover-up, and it is the responsibility of this place and the inquiry to look into that, but the prosecutions in Scotland were taken forward by the Crown Office, which is responsible to the Scottish Parliament. That is the point that I am making about accountability.

--- Later in debate ---

[Marion Fellows]

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that accountable for all of this is Post Office Ltd, which is wholly owned by the UK Government as its single shareholder, and that the UK Government took their eye off the ball, did not follow through, and took years to admit that there was a problem in the first place, and that if the UK Government caused this, they should fix it?

[Michael Shanks]

I am happy to agree with the hon. Lady about the responsibility of Post Office Ltd—I said that a few moments ago—but the prosecutions based on that Post Office evidence were taken forward by the Crown Office. There is responsibility to go around here. [Interruption.] I will just answer the point, if that is okay.

The evidence absolutely came from a flawed system, and Post Office Ltd must be held to account. That does not deal with how prosecutions in Scotland were taken forward not just on evidence from Horizon but with corroboration from other sources.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Shanks]

No. I have taken a lot of interventions and am going to make a bit of progress.

My second point is about timing. I do not accept the SNP’s argument at all that the timing is an issue. I have heard the Minister make the point on a number of occasions that the compensation regime will be available to people who have been exonerated—by whatever means that is—at the moment they are exonerated, so there is no question about that.

On the point about the Scottish Parliament not being able to rush through legislation, it does not have the same processes as the Northern Ireland Assembly—it does not have to go through a lengthy consultation process—so it could introduce a Bill tomorrow and have it passed before there is a vote on any of the confidence motions on Thursday. Indeed, in 2020, the Scottish Parliament passed an emergency Bill on covid—a considerably more difficult piece of legislation, stretching to 138 pages—in just two days, and the idea that this Bill is somehow more complicated than that is ridiculous.

There is no reason why the Scottish Parliament cannot take responsibility and introduce a Bill now. Indeed, if there was a question about not being able to finalise the Bill until the UK Bill had passed, the Scottish Parliament could take it all the way to the final amendment stage and amend it as necessary. But actually, again, the Minister has said that the Scottish Bill does not have to mirror directly the UK legislation for people to have access to the same compensation, which is what the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw and I both want to see.

If the SNP is unwilling to act in the Scottish Parliament to introduce the Bill, my colleague Michael Marra MSP has already drafted a Members’ Bill and will introduce that Bill this week.

[Marion Fellows]

rose—

[Michael Shanks]

If the SNP is unable to act, there will be no more dithering and there will be no more delays, because Labour will act. For that reason, I will not be supporting the SNP motion.

[Marion Fellows]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. At no time have the Scottish Justice Secretary or the Scottish Parliament said that they will not pass legislation—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Michael Shanks) has finished his speech. If the hon. Lady would like to make a few comments, she can. She does not need to do so through a point of order.

[Marion Fellows]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have here the Justice Secretary in Scotland’s remarks. She said:

“We remain crystal clear that the best way to achieve parity for the sub-postmasters across the UK who were convicted on the basis of tainted evidence from the Post Office Horizon system is for the UK Government’s Bill to be extended to Scotland, as it has been for Northern Ireland, just as we have been clear if this isn’t the case we will bring forward a Scottish bill that mirrors the UK bill as quickly as possible.”

Question put.