Welsh Devolution

Rob Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Mr Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Welsh devolution.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Sir Christopher. This is a vital topic that impacts the lives of not only my constituents in Delyn, but all the 1.3 million or so people of Wales.

In May 1999, the Secretary of State for Wales, Ron Davies, explained:

“Devolution is a process. It is not an event and neither is it a journey with a fixed end-point. The devolution process is enabling us to make our own decisions and set our own priorities, that is the important point. We test our constitution with experience and we do that in a pragmatic and not an ideologically driven way.”

There are several elements to that remark, and I want to break them down individually. Mr Davies said that devolution is a process and not an event, which seems like a reasonable point of view. It would be beneficial to take an iterative approach to such constitutional change—to test what works and what does not. The wording seems to be similar to saying that devolution is a bit of an experiment—several smaller processes that go together to produce an outcome. The difference, though, is that with an experiment, someone bothers to look at the results. With devolution, there has not been any examination of whether it is working well or badly, and nobody seems to care either way—“devolve and forget” at its worst.

The Westminster Government have a good story to tell: “If you think it is bad here, just look at how much worse it is in Wales.” The Welsh Government have their pantomime villain to blame: “It is all Westminster’s fault, because they continually underfund Wales.” Like, I am sure, all my constituents, I regularly tune into First Minister’s questions in the Senedd—I never miss it. It is a much more serene and courteous affair than Prime Minister’s questions here, but I fail to recall a single time that the First Minister has said that they got anything wrong or made any mistakes. If there is any hint of anything not going well in Wales, it is immediately the fault of Westminster. Both sides have their pre-prepared scapegoats to help them win political arguments, and it is always the people of Wales who suffer.

Mr Davies said that devolution

“is enabling us to make our own decisions and set our own priorities, that is the important point.”

I could not possibly have any more contempt for that statement than I do. It is not the important point. The only important point is the outcome of decisions: how do decisions that are made impact and affect the lives of the people of Wales? Where they are made and who makes them is absolutely irrelevant, as long as they are the right ones.

For the Secretary of State for Wales to say something like

“enabling us to make our own decisions”

immediately separates us and encourages division in British society. Who is this “us” who will be able to “make our own decisions”? It is surely not the people of Wales, because only 25% of us voted to have a Welsh Assembly in the first place. Here we are, almost 25 years on from its establishment, and there is no evidence to suggest that the Westminster or Cardiff Governments have done any reflective analysis whatsoever as to whether devolution has been positive or negative.

Finally, the part of Mr Davies’s comment that I completely agree with:

“We test our constitution with experience and we do that in a pragmatic and not an ideologically driven way.”

I agree 100%, so where is that test? Why is nobody doing it? What does “pragmatic” and “not… ideologically driven” mean? The common-sense reading of that statement is that it means exactly the opposite of its previous comment about the geographical location of the decision maker being the important point. The statement is a complete lesson in political contradiction—to please both sides. On one hand, he invokes the idealism of having decisions made closer to home regardless of the outcome, and on the other he promotes a pragmatic examination of the process, which must not be steered by ideology.

Wales is a small but proud country with a unique identity. It has an unusual degree of political continuity. It ought to have been able to develop and introduce unique policies in Wales that were just not possible prior to devolution, but the record shows that it has failed to have an impact on the lives of our constituents. It is not good enough to keep blaming Whitehall after 25 years. In the time that we have had devolution, Wales has fallen behind the rest of the Union in nearly all its devolved policy areas and has continuously fallen short on UK-wide priorities.

Devolution in Wales has not resulted, as proponents had hoped, in a new form of politics. Far from reinvigorating democracy, voters are just underwhelmed by it. Well, that is not quite right: it has brought about a new form of politics, but sadly it has been the politics of division, blame and mockery. The Welsh Government blame everything on Westminster so they have a ready excuse for never having to fix anything; the Westminster Government say, “Well, it could be worse: look at Labour in Wales,” making us the laughing stock of these British Isles. The new politics we were promised 25 years ago has sadly morphed into a horrific parody of itself.

We were promised increased democratic representation. The Assembly was established on a 50.2% turnout of the people of Wales, with an outcome of 50.3% in favour. From a situation where 25.3% of the people of Wales voted in favour of establishing it, Wales was then thrust into a project of seismic proportions that would change the constitutional make-up of the UK irrevocably. Since 1998, the election turnout of the Welsh Assembly, which was subsequently renamed the Senedd at great yet pointless expense, has continuously declined, reaching as low as 38.2% and never exceeding 46%. Those woeful figures only go to prove that voters have become apathetic and disengaged with the Welsh Government. Turnout in Wales at general elections exceeds 70% every time.

The cost of the Senedd in 2021-22 was £63 million, with proposals to increase Senedd Members from 60 to 96, taking an already over-inflated cost up by another third—another £13 million—giving even less value for money for the people of Wales time and again. Earlier this year, a report said that the buildings of the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in north Wales were only 62% operationally safe, with some £350 million needed just to bring the existing structures up to scratch, without talking about any new ones. Unsurprisingly, the health board has once again been placed in special measures, which are special in name only as that has been the case for the past eight years, with no noticeable improvement for the long-suffering people of north Wales. Had we not been paying money for the devolved Administration for the past 25 years, we could have ensured that every hospital across the whole of Wales was properly maintained and not falling down around the ears of our dedicated staff.

Routinely, in this Parliament, Labour MPs attack the Government on a range of perceived issues—rightly so; that is their duty as the Opposition. However, as we know, Labour has been front and centre in Wales since 1999 and failing since 1999. Since the advent of devolution, Welsh Labour has been virtually unopposed in government. Never winning an outright majority, it relies heavily on the support of Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats, who are both seemingly as reluctant as Labour to accept their part in this mismanagement on a colossal scale. On a visit to Llandudno last year, the Leader of His Majesty’s Opposition in this place, the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), said,

“a Welsh Labour government is the living proof of what Labour in power looks like. How things can be done differently and better… a blueprint for what Labour could do across the UK”—

Lord help the UK.

What does Labour have to show for almost a quarter of a century in power as a blueprint for the rest of the country? Let me examine some of the areas of life in Wales that have been devolved and how they have developed and progressed over the period of devolution. First, let us look at health, at the NHS. As we know, the Labour party in this Parliament relies heavily on scaremongering and unfounded soundbites—“Only Labour can save the NHS” and “The Tories are going to privatise everything”—while going out of its way to ignore the scale of the crisis in Wales. It points out everything that is wrong in England but never does anything to fix even the worst issues in Wales. I wish that the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), the Labour shadow Health Secretary, who says that his party would fix everything that is broken in NHS England, would pop down the M4 and tell his secrets to the Welsh Government’s Minister for Health, who makes blunder after blunder and seems powerless to make any positive, lasting change.

In Wales, health boards are all in special measures. As I mentioned, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, which serves my Delyn constituency in north Wales, has been in that state for eight years, except for a conveniently short period just before the last Senedd election. It was brought out of special measures in the run-up to that campaigning period, despite there having been no actual changes. Interestingly, it was put back into special measures just after the election. That is just a coincidence, I am sure—an administrative mix-up.

The Labour rhetoric about poor funding of the NHS hits closer to home than Labour would ever care to admit. Despite no modern-day Conservative Government ever having cut NHS funding, Welsh Labour cut it in 2015. The King’s Fund expertly demonstrated that by reporting that under the Conservatives, the NHS has had a budget increase of 39% in real terms since 2010, with planned spending for the Department of Health and Social Care in England at more than £180 billion.

The NHS in Wales is failing. Wales had a higher covid death rate than England. Once again, there is a public inquiry in London to look for lessons learned, or, as it turns out, for the media to be able to allocate blame and denounce politicians. Either way, there is no scrutiny at all in Wales: no inquiry and no accountability, despite a worse outcome.

Moving on from health, Wales has the lowest-achieving education system in the entire UK and is among the worst in Europe. Just last week, we had the PISA—programme for international student assessment—testing results for science, maths and literacy. In science, England scored 503 and Wales scored 473, against an OECD average of 485. In maths, England scored 492 and Wales scored 466, against an average of 472. In literacy, England was at 496 and Wales was at 466, against the average of 476.

One pupil who gave comments to BBC Wales said:

“Some parts of it were tricky, but some of it was interesting…It’s like numeracy. So just using that information we know and using it in real life scenarios, which we don’t normally do in lessons that much.”

Another pupil said:

“I think it helps a lot when we get into the real world and actually have to use the skills that we did in the Pisa test to see where we’ll be at when we have to do that in real life”.

Those quotes from students interviewed by the BBC confirm their resounding opinion that their education is giving them knowledge, but never putting them in any real-life situations where they need to apply it. If we are not teaching them usable skills, what is the point of teaching them at all? We need to teach students the relevance of the knowledge and how it fits in with their lives. The pupils have confirmed that we are not doing that in Wales, so it is no wonder that our children are left behind compared with the rest of the UK.

In every single area of the curriculum, England was above average and had the highest scores in the UK. Wales was below average and had the lowest scores in the UK. The First Minister failing to do his sums properly when questioned about those numbers in the Senedd chamber last week was the height of irony. We are letting down the children of Wales. It is not just the Welsh Government any more, but the UK Government who say, “It’s nothing to do with us—it’s devolved.” That is just not good enough. We are all part of the United Kingdom.

Housing is an issue that is immensely important to my constituents and across Wales. As recently as the 2019 general election, the then leader of the Labour party and the official Opposition to the Government pledged 100,000 new council houses every year in England. That sounds great, but we must remember that the Welsh Government, under Labour management, released data detailing a meagre 57 builds by local authorities in that same year. Where are all the houses that the Leader of the Opposition pledged would happen under Labour? This is a devolved area and it has every opportunity to build them in Wales, but they never seem to materialise.

As discussions are being had by a noisy minority in support of more devolution and the ludicrous notion of independence for Wales, we must all be bold enough to look at these failures and ensure, above all else, that Wales is not just handed powers by the UK Parliament without proper scrutiny from this House. That is not to talk down Wales, as I will now doubtless be accused of doing. It is a harsh reality of the situation. Wales is subsidised by England to the tune of approximately £18 billion a year.

The total tax revenue in Wales is exceeded by far by the amount of spending. The difference comes from the UK Government, quite rightly, as we are firmly and comfortably part of the UK. Where do those shouters for independence think they are going to get the money to pay for everything? None of the public services in Wales work already. Where will the funds come from for Wales to have its own courts, police, emergency services, welfare system, state pension and defence infrastructure—everything that an independent state would need? It is completely pie in the sky.

This is the focal point of what I want to say. I have been told a number of things in the past couple of years to try to persuade me of why I am wrong, and I will touch on them briefly. First, I am told by colleagues, who may or may not be in the room, that devolution is not the problem; it is Labour. My response is, yes, but all it does is compound the problem with its incompetence. It has not necessarily created the problem in the first place. The situation would not be any better with the Welsh Conservatives in charge, not because they are also incompetent—although I have seen nothing to make me think that would be a false conclusion—but because the powers that the Senedd has mean that it will never be able to do what needs to be done. For example, the UK Government announced 40 new hospitals. Whether those 40 hospitals will ever exist or come into being is by the by, but the point is that, even in optimal circumstances, Wales would never be able to embark on such a significant capital project because it will never have the funds to do that.

The UK Government have significantly more ability to borrow than the Welsh Government do. Despite the funding being distributed by the Barnett formula—a very poor way to calculate funding allocations—Wales will simply never have sufficient capital to engage in such a wide-ranging project. It does not even have the funds to repair the existing buildings, as I mentioned.

Some people use that as a good reason to devolve more powers so that Wales has those options, but we would get to a point where there are more devolved powers than reserved. At that point, we might just as well have full independence for Wales. I will say controversially on the record that I believe that full independence would be preferable to the current situation. More importantly, full independence is impossible due to the £18 billion a year that would be missing from the Welsh coffers. Bearing in mind that UK national debt is currently £2.5 trillion, presumably Wales would immediately start with 5% of that. So it would be £125 billion in the red on day one, with an extra £18 billion to find every year, just to stand still, from a faltering economy with low average earnings, and a population that cannot be squeezed any tighter. Independence is a fiscal impossibility.

Given that full movement one way or the other is preferable to the current situation, and independence is impossible, the only logical solution is to remove devolution altogether and get back to a single Government for England and Wales. Wherever participants in this debate sit on the political spectrum, outcomes should be their priority. What makes the lives of the people in Wales better? The people of Delyn could not care less about idealism, political nonsense and the shenanigans in this place. They do care about being able to put food on the table, jobs and opportunities, providing their children with a better start in life and relying on a health service to help them in their most difficult times.

Any time I talk about this on the record I get lambasted by the press, including certain journalists in Wales. One in particular said that I was doing it in a desperate and hopefully vain attempt to revive my career—God forbid. He wrote a long article attacking me personally. As the great woman once said:

“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”

People say I am anti-Welsh. Nothing of the sort: dim byd o’r fath o gwbl. I am proud to be Welsh and to speak the language. It is because of that pride that I make these points, not from an anti-Wales point of view, but because the outcomes of devolution have led me unequivocally to conclude that it does not work, has not worked and cannot work.

My Welsh pride is such that I am brave enough to stand up in the face of the people who attack me and my patriotism and say, “No”. I stand here and say these things with the knowledge that there are many colleagues in this House of Commons who agree with every word I say on the matter privately, but who are hesitant to speak out against the stated policy of their party. That is not to say that I am any more courageous than they are—just that I have a bit less to lose than they do at the current time.

For a journalist who I have never spoken a word to in my life to draw judgments on my intent and my reasons for making the statements that I make is a sad indictment of a news media who have decided that it is not their job any longer to report the news, but somehow to interpret and speculate as to a rationale behind it, without even bothering to ask. It was notable that in his 1,100-word rant about me, there was not a single counter to any of the points that I made. There was not a single reference to the beneficial outcome of devolution and the intrinsic value that it has brought to the people of Wales, and not a single reference to the litany of successes that devolution has inspired, or the wonderful outcomes that the people of Wales have been able to enjoy that would not otherwise have been possible. There was nothing positive to say about devolution at all—just attacks on me.

That is all right. I am immensely proud of my Welshness, but I would be infinitely more proud if I could say “I’m from Wales”, and other people said “You’ve got great educational results”, or “Gosh, you’ve really transformed your NHS”, or “Your incomes are skyrocketing across Wales.” None of those things have happened in the last 25 years; what has happened has been the clear degeneration to rack and ruin in my fantastic country.

It does not need to be this way; we do not have to be the poor relation any more. We should roll back on devolution. Tomorrow, just after Prime Minister’s questions, I shall present a Bill to the House to allow for a referendum to do just that. I hope that in her response, the Minister will not just confirm that devolution is the policy of the Government. We all know that, and we all know that Wales has to put up with it only because it was brought in to satisfy our cousins north of the border. I would like the Minister to tell me why the Government support devolution in Wales. What are the positive outcomes? What benefits have there been that otherwise would not have been possible? What has come out of Cardiff Bay to benefit the people of Wales and offset the hundreds of millions of pounds that it has cost us over the years?

In 2014, the people of Scotland got to have their say once again to confirm the outcome of the 1997 referendum. In 2016, the people of the UK got to have their say once again on membership of the EU following the previous vote 40 years earlier. Why, then, can the people of Wales not have their say on whether to retain the institution that it never wanted in the first place?

Some people say, “There was another referendum in Wales in 2011”, and yes, there was. That question was:

“Do you want the Assembly now to be able to make laws”

on the matters it has jurisdiction for? Of course people did—what a silly question that was. There was a 35% turnout for a 63% yes vote—another win for 22% of the population of Wales. But the question was fundamentally different and was not one that meant a great deal to the people of Wales, who reasonably assumed that the Assembly already had the powers to make laws in devolved areas. I am proposing a simple and straightforward yes or no—keep it or do not keep it.

I hope the Minister will confirm that there are plans to let the people of Wales have their say, not on whether there should be enhanced powers or more devolution, but on whether devolution should be allowed to carry on at all, so that we can redirect the money wasted on a failed institution into providing better services and better outcomes for the people of Wales.

Ron Davies said:

“Devolution is a process…not an event”.

The process has failed to produce any measurable benefit; the process should be discontinued. The people of Wales should be allowed to choose.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Fay Jones)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Roberts) on securing this debate on a cause that he has discussed many times in the House. It is a pleasure to speak in my first Westminster Hall debate in my role as the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales. I am very privileged to work alongside the Secretary of State for Wales and the Prime Minister in championing economic growth and creating high-quality jobs across Wales. In the limited time available, I will try to draw Members’ attention to the progress that the UK Conservative Government have made so far in securing the investment, opportunity and growth that Wales needs. That progress demonstrates the many benefits of the Union to the people of Wales.

I will start with four towns funds, in Merthyr Tydfil, Cwmbran, Wrexham and Barry. We have city and regional growth deals across the length and breadth of the country, £1 billion for the electrification of the north Wales main line, and specific Government investment in all 22 local authorities in Wales. The Government are backing Welsh business and the economy and delivering a better, brighter future for our communities.

The hon. Gentleman’s speech focused instead on constitutional issues and demonstrated his firmly held belief about the future of Welsh devolution. It will not surprise him—I know he will disagree with this—that I am bound to say that his argument is not with the Welsh Parliament, or with devolution, but with Welsh Labour. I am sorry that not one of the 22 Welsh Labour Members felt able to come to this Chamber this afternoon to defend Labour’s record in Wales—unless the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) would like to have a go.

I know that this will disappoint the hon. Member for Delyn, but let me be clear that this Government are firmly committed to devolution. I am proud that successive Conservative Governments have strengthened devolution in Wales, from delivering a referendum on full lawmaking powers to delivering two Wales Acts, devolving tax and borrowing powers and placing Welsh devolution on a firm footing with the reserved powers model. We have seen the National Assembly for Wales transform into the Welsh Parliament.

I believe that now is the time to move on from constitutional debates and that we should instead focus on growing and levelling up our economy, creating jobs and supporting people with the cost of living, because these are the priorities of the people of Wales—not extra devolution to the Senedd and certainly not creating more Senedd Members, which would cost an extortionate amount of money. It is imperative that the UK Government makes the most of devolution, and close collaboration between the UK Government and the Welsh Government is absolutely vital.

Our joint work to deliver two investment zones and two freeports in Wales will help to grow the Welsh economy and therefore the UK economy by attracting new businesses, jobs and investment.

[Mr Roberts]

Will the Minister give way?

[Fay Jones]

I have very limited time and the hon. Gentleman treated us to a 23-minute speech, so if he will forgive me, I will press on.

Collaboration with local authorities in Wales is also key, as has been proven through the growing success of the Welsh city and growth deals, which are delivering real results for regional economies. But in recognising the positives of devolution for Wales and the opportunities that arise from having two Governments, it would be remiss of me not to recognise, as we heard the hon. Gentleman so eloquently explain, that there are legitimate and significant concerns in Wales about the performance of public services and the decisions being made by the Welsh Labour Government.

As the hon. Gentleman outlined, the most recent PISA results show that Welsh scores in maths, reading and science tests continue to be the lowest of the United—

Oral Answers to Questions

Rob Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 5th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

The HS2 project, which was, of course, proposed by the last Labour Government and is supported, as far as I am aware, by the Labour Opposition, will benefit passengers in north Wales. The Government are committed to passengers across the whole of Wales, which is why £390 million has been spent on a range of improvements. In addition to that, we will shortly have the south Wales metro system, which is part of the Cardiff capital region growth deal.

[Mr Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)]

8. Whether he has had discussions with the Secretary of State for Transport on the adequacy of Network Rail funding in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Dr James Davies)]

I have regular discussions with Department for Transport colleagues on a wide range of transport matters. Wales receives proportionally greater funding than the rest of Great Britain. In fact, figures from the 2021-22 financial year demonstrate that Government funding of the operational railway was 32.1p per kilometre travelled in England, 57.3p in Scotland and 59.3p in Wales.

[Mr Roberts]

When I asked the Department for Transport about the maintenance funding spent on the Wales route, it told me that it gets 4% or 5% of the spending and it equates to 4% of the network, so it must be fair. The problem is that the figures were based on train miles rather than track length, and the train miles are always lower in Wales because of a lack of investment in infrastructure. The track length is actually 11%, not 4%. Will the Minister make representations to the DFT to increase rail spending proportionately to make it a fairer settlement?

[Dr Davies]

The hon. Member is right to reference investment in rail in north Wales. Growth Track 360 has pressed for that hard—I have been involved with that, as he has—and the North Wales Transport Commission has recently outlined similar projects. He will be aware of the Union connectivity review development funding pot that has been available, and the entry in RNEP for the north Wales coast main line in relation to line speeds.

Oral Answers to Questions

Rob Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)]

7. What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister of Wales on the adequacy of the operation of the devolution settlement for people in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Dr James Davies)]

The Secretary of State for Wales has regular discussions with the First Minister on how our two Governments can work together within the current devolution settlement to deliver for Wales. Our recent agreement to establish two Welsh freeports shows what we can achieve when we work together for the benefit of people and communities in Wales.

[Rob Roberts]

Given that the Senedd sits for only two days a week and, if yesterday’s reports are anything to go by, that the First Minister is less than truthful with his answers anyway, can my hon. Friend fathom any reason why they need to expand Senedd membership by 60%, at huge cost to the Welsh taxpayer? Does he agree with me that the Welsh people should be asked whether they want more MSs working only two days a week?

[Dr Davies]

The hon. Member is right to ask that question. I fully agree with him that the last thing people in Wales want is more politicians in Cardiff bay. The Welsh Government would be better spending the estimated £100 million that they suppose this would cost on public services. If the Welsh Government and their separatist allies are so confident that these proposals should progress, then I agree that they should seek the agreement of people in Wales through a referendum.

25 Years of Devolution in Wales

Rob Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 28th March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of 25 years of devolution in Wales.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Sir Christopher.

Before I address the motion, may I speak on behalf of the House for the first time, and likely for the last time, in sending our condolences to the Welsh First Minister, Mark Drakeford, on the recent sudden passing of his wife, Clare? I never met Mrs Drakeford, but by all accounts she was a kind-hearted and compassionate lady, and I cannot begin to imagine how the First Minister and his family are feeling. I know that our thoughts are with them at this sad time.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for finding time for the debate. I submitted the application last July in the hope of holding the debate in September. The eagle-eyed among us will note that although the debate is entitled “25 Years of Devolution in Wales”, the 25th anniversary of the establishment of the National Assembly for Wales—the Senedd—will be next May. However, 18 September 2022 was 25 years since the day of the referendum that brought about devolution and led us to this point. Sadly, the debate could not held then because of the sad passing of Her late Majesty. I am grateful to the Committee for finding time for the debate today.

As you well know, Sir Christopher, Wales is a small but proud country, with a unique identity and an unusual degree of political continuity. It ought to have been able to develop and introduce unique policies, implemented in ways that just were not possible prior to devolution. But the record goes to show that in so many measurable ways, devolution has simply not delivered in terms of its impact on the lives of our constituents. It is not good enough to keep blaming Whitehall 25 years on.

In the almost 25 years of devolution, Wales has fallen behind the rest of the Union in nearly all of its devolved policy areas, and has continuously fallen short on UK-wide priorities. Devolution has not resulted in a new form of politics, as proponents had hoped. Far from reinvigorating democracy, voters are underwhelmed by devolution.

What of the increased democratic representation that we were promised? The Assembly was established on a 50.2% turnout of the people of Wales, with an outcome of 50.3% in favour and 49.7% against. From a situation in which 25.3% of the people of Wales voted in favour of establishing devolution, Wales was thrust into a project of seismic proportions, which would change the constitutional make-up of the UK irrevocably. It is ironic that we had uproar and claims of illegitimacy about the recent 52% to 48% vote on the B-word, yet the 50.3% to 49.7% result, which has led to nothing positive in Wales, went ahead unquestioned and, crucially, with no subsequent assessment of whether it is actually working.

Since 1998, turnout in elections to the Welsh Assembly—subsequently renamed the Senedd at great but pointless expense—has declined continuously, reaching as low as 38.2% and never exceeding 46%. That woeful figure only goes to prove that voters have become apathetic and disengaged with the Welsh Government. Can we blame them?

My constituent Mikey Connolly pointed out to me recently that 23 out of the 40 Senedd constituency seats and three out of the five regional areas are covered by people who live in the Cardiff and Swansea regions. No matter what happens, or how bad things may get for people living in the remaining 75% of the country, even if every single one of those individuals voted for the same alternative party in every single election, Labour would never be voted out of power, so long as the majority of voters in Cardiff and Swansea are kept happy.

As Mr Connolly rightly asks,

“what incentive is there then for Labour in Wales to improve the quality of life of those in Mid and North Wales, or even create policies that adequately account for the vast differences in culture, population, needs and quality of life between the South and the rest of Wales”?

He is 100% correct: it is a flawed system that will leave the people of north Wales in particular with a permanent democratic deficit and feeling, as we already do, not like the poor relations, but like the forgotten relations.

The cost of the Senedd in 2021-22 was £62.9 million. There are proposals to increase the number of Members from 60 to 96, which would take an already inflated cost up by another £12.5 million, giving less value for money for the people of Wales time and again.

Recently, we saw a report saying that the buildings of the Betsi Cadwaladr health board in north Wales are only 62% operationally safe, with some £350 million needed just to bring existing structures up to scratch, without talking about any new ones. Now, the health board has been placed in special measures, which are special in name only, because this has been the case for the past eight years, with no noticeable improvement in service for the long-suffering people of north Wales. Had we not been paying the money for a devolved Administration for the past 25 years, we could have ensured that every one of our hospitals across Wales was properly maintained, not falling down around the ears of our dedicated and hard-working NHS staff.

Routinely in this Parliament, Labour MPs attack the Government on a range of perceived issues—rightly so; as Opposition Members, it is their duty to do that—but in Wales Labour has been front and centre since 1999, and failing to deliver since 1999. Since the advent of devolution, Welsh Labour has been virtually unopposed in government. Never having won an outright majority, Labour relies heavily on the support of Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats, which are both seemingly as reluctant as Labour to accept the part they have played in mismanagement on a colossal scale.

Interestingly, on a visit to Llandudno last year, the Leader of His Majesty’s Opposition, the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), said that

“a Welsh Labour government is the living proof of what Labour in power looks like. How things can be done differently and better… A blueprint for what Labour could do across the UK.”

What exactly does Welsh Labour have to show for almost a quarter of a century in power as a blueprint for the rest of the UK?

I want to examine some of the areas of life in Wales that have been devolved, and how they have developed and progressed over the period of devolution. First, let me consider the issue that is probably closest to most people’s hearts and most important in their lives—the health service. As we know, the Labour party in this Parliament relies heavily on scaremongering and unfounded soundbites such as, “Only Labour can save the NHS,” and, “The Tories will sell off the NHS,” while simultaneously going out of its way to ignore the scale of the crises in Wales, and pointing out everything that is wrong in England but never doing anything to fix the even worse issues in Wales.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for bringing this debate to the House, but I am aware that each region should have the opportunity to express its own ideas. I am sure he is not saying any different, but does he agree that the beauty of this United Kingdom is the ability to express our British strength through the lens of our individual nations, and that devolution and the ability for local issues to be determined locally by locally elected representatives are always goals that should be striven for? Will he join me in urging the Government to strive towards those goals, rather than the goal of appeasing the European Union, which we voted to leave, but which is determining the devolution process itself?

[Rob Roberts]

As always, the hon. Gentleman makes some excellent points. I agree with the sentiment of what he is trying to get to and trying to achieve, and that it is important for local areas and the regions to have their say on a hyper-local basis, but I am much more focused on outcomes. From my point of view, when we are having these debates and making decisions closer to home, the most important thing is whether people in those areas are benefiting from that process. I hope to go on to prove that they are not.

Especially in this place, we tend to get a little caught up on process and form, and on how we do things. We do not necessarily focus on what we have done, what the outcome is, and how that benefits the people we are here to serve. The hon. Gentleman’s points are well made. I hope I can show that devolution is not necessarily working in the way that it should. Hopefully we can improve it—let us see—but it is certainly not going exactly as it was planned.

Health boards are in special measures. As I mentioned, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, which serves my Delyn constituency in north Wales, has been in special measures for eight years, except for a conveniently short period just before the most recent Senedd election. It was brought out of special measures in the run-up to the campaign period, despite there having been no actual changes, and then, interestingly, put back into a regime of targeted interventions shortly after the election. I am sure that was just a coincidence; I would not want to read anything sinister into that.

Labour’s rhetoric on the NHS hits closer to home than it would ever care to admit. Despite no modern-day Conservative Government ever having cut the NHS, Welsh Labour cut it in 2015. The King’s Fund expertly demonstrated that recently. It reported that under the Conservatives the NHS has had a budget increase of 39% in real terms since 2010, with planned spending for the Department of Health and Social Care in England at £180.2 billion. Welsh Labour has failed the NHS. A blueprint for what Labour can do across the UK? I hope not.

Secondly, Wales has the lowest achievement and poorest educational outcomes in the entire UK. Across the period, school spending per pupil has been consistently highest in Scotland and generally lower in Northern Ireland. In 2021-22, spending per pupil totalled £7,600 per head in Scotland, £6,400 in Northern Ireland, about £6,700 in England and £6,600 in Wales. Given the nature of the funding formulas, the funding in Wales should be a lot closer to that of Scotland because, for every £1 spent on services in England, there is around £1.20 for that service going to Wales—a significant uplift, yet Welsh schools are consistently underfunded. Again, Labour is turning its back on students and barely holding up an already struggling education system.

In 2019, it was discovered that out of the £2.5 billion earmarked for schools in Wales’s education budget, at least £450 million never even made it. Where has the money gone? It has been swallowed up by a wasteful bureaucracy and the inefficient spending that lies at the heart of devolution. That proves that Labour’s devolution plans were not fully thought through. A blueprint for what Labour can do across the UK? I certainly hope not.

Thirdly, in a 2019 Cabinet meeting the Welsh Government declared a climate emergency. It was not a priority—they just slipped it in under any other business at the end of the meeting. No real policy action was ever taken. In fact, their preservation of the natural environment is also flawed. In October 2018, Labour AMs voted against stopping the dumping of nuclear mud in Cardiff bay. They failed to invest in proper flood defences. They presided over a 28% increase in cattle slaughtering at the end of August 2019 due to a rise in bovine tuberculosis, causing huge damage to our agricultural sector.

Finally on the environment, a 2018 Senedd research briefing found that pollution was causing 2,000 deaths a year in Wales. Imagine pollution causing deaths in Wales, a land of nothing but fields, trees and wide open spaces. It beggars belief. Despite the UK as a whole being the fastest decarbonising nation in the G7, and despite Welsh Labour’s trumpeting—quite rightly—the amount of recycling done in Wales, Labour has cut carbon emissions in Wales by only half the rate of the UK. On climate and the environment, devolution has categorically failed. How can Welsh Labour be so far behind UK targets and still blame Westminster for its failings?

I will move on to housing, which is immensely important to my constituents and communities across Wales. As recently as the 2019 general election, the leader of the Labour party, who leads the official Opposition to the Government in Westminster, pledged 100,000 new council houses every year. It sounds like a wonderful figure, but we have to remember that the Welsh Government, under Labour management, released data detailing a meagre 57 builds by local authorities in 2019. I am lucky enough to say that 39 of them were in my constituency—but still.

Data from the National House Building Council confirms that, in 2020, there were 125 new homes built in my constituency. In 2021 there were 109, and in 2022 there were a massive 42 new houses. Bearing in mind that those are all new-build private properties rather than social housing, where are all the houses that the Leader of the Opposition pledged would be built under Labour? The Welsh Government have every opportunity to build them in Wales, but they do not materialise. Concurrently, there has been a 45% increase in rough sleeping in Wales under Labour. A blueprint for what Labour can do across the UK? I hope not.

When we delve deeper into the management of the Welsh economy, we see the failure of devolution for voters in Wales. Some £157 million has been wasted on reports and reviews on the much-needed M4 relief road in Newport—a policy that was shelved by the Welsh Government in 2019, despite the astonishing amount of money spent on it. If south Wales had that relief road, it would ease congestion and unlock a new era of opportunities in the area, allowing more people to travel in and out of Wales to work and set up businesses.

Other Members will know much more about that than I do, given that I am from north Wales, but there is a similar situation in the north, with millions of pounds having been wasted on new road plans—red routes, blue routes, purple polka-dotted routes and all sorts of things, such as compulsory purchasing of properties and unfinished road-building projects. I used to refer to one of the Welsh Government’s previous Ministers for the Economy and Transport as the “Minister for Documentation”, as his Department seemed to produce report after report, study after study and consultation after consultation, but never actually did anything to improve things in north-east Wales.

On the subject of business and transport, the Welsh Labour Government and Plaid Cymru want to deliver a hammer blow to our vital tourism and hospitality sector with a tourism tax for Wales. Just when the industry is building back from the pandemic, it needs our support, not to be punished. Thousands of jobs are at risk if we do not stop the tax on tourism. Opposition from the Wales Tourism Alliance and others, including over 400 responses from the tourism industry, has been completely ignored by the Welsh Government, which is frustrating the industry, as it continues to be sidelined and ignored. It is just not good enough. My constituency of Delyn in north Wales relies heavily on our tourism industry, and the Welsh Labour Government’s tourism tax proposals will be a tax on Welsh hotels, Welsh hospitality and Welsh jobs at a time when we need to be taking measures to tackle our cost of living crisis, not to contribute to it.

The Welsh Government are rolling out a 20 mph speed limit across Wales, which will—pardon the pun—slow the economy even further. It denies local bodies the ability to make policy decisions affecting their community on a more local basis, not to mention that the roll-out will cost over £32 million and increase emissions. It is just a bizarre policy.

The correlation between increased legislative powers and decreased political engagement is a sign of resentment and apathy, and it is incredibly disappointing compared with the rest of the UK. The Welsh Government seem hellbent on the ideals of high tax and state expansion, when they have been failing in Wales for a quarter of a century.

Every week we sit on the green Benches for Prime Minister’s questions as Opposition Members shout, “You have been in charge 13 years; why haven’t you changed anything?” The Welsh Government have been in place for nearly 25 years, with nothing but downward spirals and declining services, but that is okay, they never shout about that. They are not here today, interestingly, to shout that the Senedd is not doing its job, but they are more than happy to yell across the Chamber at the UK Government.

The Welsh Government’s insistence on raising council tax by pulling those on lower incomes into higher council tax bands, and their decision to pursue a tourism tax, despite one in seven Welsh jobs relying on that sector, show why Wales is consistently failing on UK-wide priorities.

In education, the OECD and the PISA—programme for international student assessment—scores ranked Wales the lowest of all devolved members of the Union in every educational standards category between 2006 and 2018. Running with the same theme, our economic data make for challenging reading. Wales is unique with around 20% of the workforce relying on public-sector employment. That alone is not necessarily a bad thing, but considering that the private sector is equally reliant on Government, it is a harsher picture.

Subsidies and grants mask Wales’s real economic value, and suppress competition, innovation and entrepreneurship. Our micromanaged economy is stifling any chance of increased investment in Wales, which is crucial to any self-reliant economy. The Welsh Government’s inaction in tackling business rates continues to devastate the Welsh high street, where shop after shop has been boarded up and abandoned. To add insult to injury, in 2021 the UK Government provided Wales with the largest annual funding settlement since devolution began, but the mismatch between revenue and properly directed public spending remains a heavily unbalanced picture.

Indeed, only yesterday we found out that the Welsh Government, at a time when there are problems all over Wales with creaking public services, in the middle of covid had to give £155 million back to the Treasury, because they did not spend it in the correct financial year. They sat on £155 million in the middle of the pandemic, when that could—and should—have been used for improving our hospitals and our response to covid, along with other crucial infrastructure. That money was squandered by the Welsh Government. Devolution is failing the Welsh economy. A

“blueprint for what Labour could do across the UK,”

the Leader of the Opposition said. I do hope not.

Another sad but prime example of the Welsh Government’s recklessness with money is the purchase of Cardiff airport for £52 million in 2013. In March 2021, it was announced that the airport was being given another £42 million of taxpayers’ cash, while the £42.6 million that it already owed in debt to the Welsh Government was being written off altogether. That was a total spend of almost £100 million in nearly a decade for an airport that is said to be now worth £15 million, less than a third of what the Welsh Government paid for it 10 years ago.

We continue to be told that it will be used to connect Wales with the rest of the world. I have not found a single record of any current Welsh Government Minister having used it for foreign visits. It has cost the Welsh economy millions by failing to keep scheduled flights to Qatar in the middle east. An estimated £200 million of good taxpayer money has been completely and utterly wasted. It would have repaired almost the entire health board estate in north Wales.

As I have touched on the subject of the coronavirus pandemic, it is worth mentioning the abject failure of the Welsh Government, their handling of the pandemic and their outright refusal—inexplicably—to have a covid inquiry on the matter, safe in the knowledge that any UK-wide inquiry will secure media scrutiny only of the actions of the UK Government, and the decisions taken by Labour in Wales mean they will escape scot-free, so they need to answer almost nothing, despite repeatedly saying that every decision was specific and unique to Wales.

The exercise of a range of emergency powers that curtailed the liberty and closed the economy of Wales and its people was bad enough, but for the Welsh Government then to avoid accountability at all costs through an inquiry that focuses on how decisions were made has never been and will never be a tenable position. Under Labour, the fact is that Wales experienced the highest covid death rate per capita of all UK nations, despite a population density significantly lower than other parts, and economically cruel and unnecessary restrictions were imposed. Those measures must be properly scrutinised in an independent inquiry.

The First Minister went on social media at every possible opportunity, every time the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) was on the TV, and every time he said, “These measures are England only. The Prime Minister does not speak for Wales.” He kept on saying that. If he and the Welsh Government are so confident about their actions and the steps they took, why are they against their being examined in a Wales-specific inquiry? The very nature of devolution means that those in power are held accountable locally for the decisions made: ducking that is shameful and cowardly. That is what people will be saying, when the UK and Scottish leaders have ordered investigations into their own handling of the pandemic.

As discussions are being had by a noisy minority in support of more devolution and even the ludicrous notion of independence for Wales, we must all be bold enough to look at these failures and ensure that above all else, Wales is not handed more powers by this UK Parliament without proper scrutiny from this House. That is not to talk down Wales, as I will now doubtless be accused of doing; it is the harsh reality of the situation.

Wales is subsidised by England—it is. There is no point denying it or getting away from it. The total tax revenue in Wales is exceeded by far by the amount of spending there. The difference comes, quite rightly, from the UK Government, because we are firmly and comfortably part of a United Kingdom, but where do these shouters for independence think they will get the money to pay for everything? None of the public services in Wales work. Where will the funds come from for Wales to have its own courts, police, emergency services, welfare systems, state pension, defence, infrastructure and everything that an independent state would need? It is absolutely pie in the sky.

Whatever participants in this debate think, and wherever they sit on the political spectrum, as I mentioned to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), outcomes should be their priority. What makes the lives of the people in Wales better? The people of Delyn do not give two hoots about idealism or political shenanigans or things that go on in this place or in Cardiff; they do give two hoots about being able to put food on their table. They give two hoots about having jobs and opportunities, being able to provide their children with a better start in life and being able to rely on a health service to help them in their most difficult times.

Finally—hon. Members will be happy to hear—a short mention for the proposed expansion of the Senedd from 60 to 96 Members. I do not even know where to start. It is quite astonishing that an institution that already has 60 people for a country of 3.1 million—one for every 52,000 constituents—would need another 36 elected representatives. What is it going to do with them? England has 56 million people and 533 MPs. That is one for every 105,000 people: double what we have in Wales. London has almost 10 million people and the London Assembly scrapes by with just 25 members.

The ridiculous situation does not end there. Not only do those in favour want to add another 36 Members to the Senedd, but they want to further strip them of accountability. We currently have a bunch of constituency Senedd Members who are elected on a first-past-the-post basis, as happens here. We also have regional Senedd Members: some across north Wales, south Wales, central south Wales, west Wales and so on. They will do away with the constituency ones altogether—or kind of—and introduce a proportional representation system for the whole thing. We will not vote for an individual any more but for a party, and then the party will fill the seats it wins with whoever is top of its list. Each constituency will have multiple Members, and no people will be elected, only parties, with the seats filled from their internal lists. Call me a cynic, and something of a traditionalist—as I know you are, Sir Christopher—but I think that is an affront to democracy, as people will not be able to vote for the person they want and just have a bunch of people forced on to them by political parties without the first clue as to who they might be.

I have probably spoken for long enough. There is a great discussion going on in the Cabinet Office and the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities about regional devolution deals across England. I caution hon. Members who call for increased localism in decisions that having those decisions made closer to the source does not automatically translate into better outcomes. If there is one thing we can learn from the failed devolution experiment in Wales, that is surely it. I have said it before and I say it again: it is my abiding hope that the Minister in his winding-up speech will confirm that there are plans to let the people of Wales have their say: not on whether there should be enhanced powers or more devolution, but on whether devolution should be allowed to carry on at all, so we can redirect the money wasted on a failed institution into providing better services for the people of Wales.

With all due respect, it shows how much value is placed on debating the institution and the issue that, sadly, virtually none of my Welsh MP colleagues are in the room to discuss the nature of the Senedd today—which is fundamental and one of the most important things to have ever happened in the lives of our constituents in Wales. That just goes to show the contempt that both the people in Wales and, potentially, the people in this House hold for the Senedd as an institution.

[Dame Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I really do not recognise a lot of what the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) has laid out. One great thing about devolution is that there has been far greater transparency and that enables him to make some of his analyses. Every region and council in England has things that have not always gone exactly as they should, and which could have been done better. That is obviously the case for Wales as well. People are not always going to get everything right first time. They are not always going to do everything the best way. However, the point is that they are democratically elected and closer to their communities, and they have the opportunity to improve and change things.

I want to put on record the remarkable progress that Wales has made over the last 25 years. Setting up the Senedd—or the Assembly as it was then—from scratch and gaining greater powers has been done in a remarkably short time. Considering that we were faced with the consequences of a world banking crisis seven years after it was set up it has not been an easy time.

In Wales, we have the opportunity to use powers imaginatively and to do things differently. Right from the start, we in the Labour party looked at who was going to represent us. We decided to go for a twinning process and put constituencies together so that we would have an even number of Labour women and men standing for election in winnable seats. Too often, women were confined to less winnable seats. That provided a strong degree of gender equality in the Assembly, which coloured debate. Why is it that Wales led on childcare provision? We have had a strong tradition of women speaking up in the Senedd. Why is it that Wales spends more on social care? Why does it provide better social care and a living wage for all in the care sector? That has been delivered by the Welsh Labour Government because we believe it is very important. Why have those issues been raised? It is because we have more women taking part. There has been a real shift in focus, and a real determination to do things differently within the powers we have. We do not have all the powers, but we use them imaginatively. For example, how did we ban fracking in Wales? We banned fracking through the planning laws, because that is where we have powers.

In Wales, we have taken up long-term issues such as preventive medicine, the results of which will not be seen for a very long time. We were the first to bring in a smoking ban. Smoking is at record lows in Wales. That is good, but it will be years before the long-term benefits to health outcomes are seen. We have concentrated on the foundation phase of education. Again, it may be a considerable time before we see the full benefit of that investment because we are starting with the youngest children. We have a very innovative curriculum.

What is important about devolution is the closeness of the Administration and the Ministers to the people they serve. Time and time again, whether it is business groups, trade unions or stakeholder groups, people in Wales feel that they can access the Welsh Government. They can have meetings with Ministers or officials. They are involved in consultations.

Take the recent consultation on business rates. People have talked about reform of business rates forever and a day across the UK, but the Welsh Government have got on and started consulting. No one thinks that finding a solution will be easy because there will always be winners and losers, but the important thing is having the consultation and the fact that people in Wales feel they have an opportunity to contribute. A good example occurred during covid, when Julie James, a Member of the Senedd who was then in charge of local government, had regular meetings with council leaders across Wales. Even Opposition party leaders recognised the value of that: nothing was a shock for those councils. Local authorities were under stress, having to deliver everything during covid: providing school meals during lockdown, ensuring social distancing in the workplace and preparing schools for reopening, to name but a few—not to mention the delivery of the test and trace programme, which cost so much less and was so much more effective in Wales because it was delivered by local authorities who knew their people well.

[Rob Roberts]

The hon. Lady used the words, “far greater transparency”. I mentioned the covid inquiry; from what she is saying, in Wales, everything was run quite well and all the Ministers made excellent decisions. Is it not therefore incomprehensible that Wales should not have its own bespoke covid inquiry to scrutinise whether those decisions were actually as good as she is making them out to be?

[Dame Nia Griffith]

I find that comment surprising from somebody who purports to want to save money. We can do what the hon. Gentleman suggests at one fell swoop, with one covid inquiry. It can have specific studies of what happened in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales; there is absolutely no reason why that should not be the case. The National Audit Office gave Wales a clean bill of health on the way it purchased personal protective equipment throughout covid, whereas we have seen some shocking figures on UK Government money that went astray, and some dreadful accusations of cronyism in who won various contracts; companies in my part of Wales missed out because their emails were never even opened by the Department of Health. I can cite one company that, despite being a trusted supplier to the Ministry of Defence, police forces and health service in Wales, did not even get a look in from the NHS in England.

Getting back to the point, the Minister in Wales talked to the leaders of local councils; they knew that councils were facing the stress of having to deliver measures under covid, so they made sure that councils knew what was coming down the line. That contrasted very sharply with what happened in England; leaders in the north of England found out that their whole areas were being put under covid restrictions literally a couple of hours before it was announced on local radio. That was an utter disgrace. The situation in Wales reflects what can be achieved in a more devolved situation, where people can have greater access. We cannot expect people to have that same sort of access in a UK Government situation, in which we would clearly be dealing with a much larger country. However, there could have been a great deal more co-operation on covid restrictions and with councils.

There was a shocking disregard for the powers of the devolved Governments during covid. They were often not apprised of what was happening at Cobra meetings and found out about things very last minute. There could have been much better consultation, much better dialogue and actual interaction on how things could be done better. The same situation was repeated in the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020; instead of constructing a situation in which there would be proper consultation and discussion, the UK Government pushed through legislation that effectively ignores devolution and rides roughshod over the devolution settlement.

That has likewise happened in the distribution of levelling-up funding and the shared prosperity fund. It is quite extraordinary, because nobody logical would ever think of missing out the Welsh Government when deciding how to use the levelling-up fund and the shared prosperity fund. The Welsh Government have been central in the distribution of European funding, and they already have established partnerships with the local authorities. It is absolutely bizarre; there can only be a political motivation. Nobody in their right mind would think of missing out a layer of Government as important as the Welsh Government when managing those funds.

The other thing that the Welsh Government are prepared to do is step in. Again, that is one of the benefits of their being close to people, and being transparent. A Government can step in when they can see what is happening and what is not going right. In Ynys Môn, for example, the Welsh Government stepped in because the local council was failing. The Welsh Government have stepped in with Betsi Cadwaladr. The important thing is that they are being proactive and getting in there. Nobody pretends that everything is perfect; the important thing is that a Government be prepared to act and do something. They should not wait 20 years for somebody to produce a report on how terrible things are, particularly with hospitals. It is important to get in there now and work with the people there to improve things.

[Rob Roberts]

rose—

[Dame Nia Griffith]

I think the hon. Gentleman has said enough on that issue; I am going to have my say. Perhaps I will let him come in on another topic.

I will move on to the situation that we are in now. We are clearly facing a major climate crisis. What are the Welsh Government doing? We are moving forward. We are moving forward on renewables very quickly, and we have set up a company to help drive investment in renewables because we recognise the challenge. We also recognise that we have some of the heaviest and dirtiest industry in the UK, so we have an even greater challenge. Of course we in Wales will find it more difficult to reduce our carbon footprint than areas without those challenges will, but we are motoring ahead.

I want to draw the attention of the hon. Member for Delyn to the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre in north Wales. The Welsh Government plan to encourage investment in it. Most importantly, the Welsh Government are trying hard to work with people in Wales; we are trying to consult them and take them with us. That is why we have had fewer strikes in Wales than in England. Railway workers have not gone on strike in Wales because they have already managed to agree something, whereas they have carried on with strike action in England. Likewise, we have had a more constructive approach to workers in the health service; we recognise that standards can be raised only through partnership with everybody involved. That is important.

We could score points forever, looking at what is good in one place and better in another. The fact is that England is a large place. Many rural parts of England have similar challenges and difficulties to Wales; in those places, it is difficult to attract specialist staff. Difficult decisions have to be made about how to provide ultra-specialist services when there is not the population to support the models we have in places such as London, where lots of specialist hospitals are very close together. There are huge challenges, not just in Wales, but in parts of rural England. The same can be said about rural transport.

Let us be clear about some of the things we have done in Wales. We were the first UK health service in Europe to put nurse staffing levels into law, making a real difference to patient outcomes, experiences and quality of care. We were the first country in the UK to introduce a single cancer pathway, making sure everyone gets the best possible care and treatment, and cancer survival rates in Wales are increasing. We were the first part of the UK to introduce special, non-invasive tests for babies before they are born, helping to reduce the risk of miscarriage, and we were the first UK health service to commit to ending new cases of HIV by 2030. As I have mentioned, Wales was the first to ban smoking in public places, and the first to change the law for presumed consent for organ donation. Of course, we championed prescriptions, which continue to remain free in Wales despite many economic pressures.

I could go on, but the important point is that co-operation and consultation matter. We have a new curriculum in Wales. It is imaginative and different. It is not so focused on a narrow set of examination results; it is a much broader education. It reflects a lot of what is going on in many other European countries. It will take time for us to see its results, but it has been developed with teachers, pupils, communities and, most importantly, business and industry, looking at the rounded skills that are so often needed in addition to straight examination results.

As we move forward into the next decade and the challenges that it will produce, the important thing is that people have an opportunity to make their views known at the polls—to elect the people they want to serve them in Wales and on their local councils. To roll back on devolution—to try to centralise things—will not serve people’s best interests.

[Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I congratulate the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) on finally securing the debate, and I echo his sentiment that all our thoughts continue to be with the Drakeford family at this difficult time.

It was something of a shock to me when I realised that I had started being able to measure my involvement in politics not in years or decades but in quarter centuries—and perhaps even in greater increments. Among the first political campaigns that I was involved in, as a university student, were the 1997 devolution referendum campaigns. Obviously, I had been involved in political campaigns before that, but what I found inspiring about the campaign in Scotland was its cross-party nature. Whether people supported devolution or independence, and irrespective of which party people supported—there were even a few intrepid souls from the Conservative and Unionist party who wanted to see a Scottish Parliament of some kind—the ability to set partisan political and policy differences aside allowed us to build a campaign for, win the consent for and then establish that institution.

The referendums in Scotland and Wales were a week apart. It was such a relief to get the thumping result that we achieved in Scotland, and it was with some trepidation that we waited the next few days to see what would transpire in Wales. I remember watching the results that night; I went to bed quite despondent at the way that it looked like things would pan out, only to wake up and find that the good voters of Carmarthen had turned out in such numbers as to take the result over the line and deliver a yes.

It is fair to say that, for different reasons, devolution in Scotland and Wales got off to a slightly shaky start. London imposed a Welsh First Minister who was not perhaps the choice of the governing party in Wales; that was not the wisest piece of party management. That was perhaps an early lesson, for those prepared to take it, that excessive interference in Welsh politics from the London end of the M4 is not the way to go, and that it is best to leave it to the people in Wales to decide for themselves.

After that, the Welsh Government got on with a pretty solid programme of delivery. The hon. Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) gave a comprehensive list of their measures; I would add that it was the first part of the UK to introduce a charge for single-use plastic bags. There were the predictable squeals of outrage from the usual suspects, but the charge is now regarded as the norm right across the UK. There was the abolition of prescription charges, and the provision of school breakfasts. Wales was an early adopter of a children’s commissioner to stand up for the rights of young people who often find themselves without a voice in institutional settings. There were also a range of other policy measures taken to address social and economic inequalities. I have to say, having viewed all that from several hundred miles away in Scotland, that it seemed to me for a time that although Wales had a less powerful version of devolution, the Government in Wales were doing so much with so little, while our Government in Scotland appeared to be doing so little with so much.

As I say, a lot was done in Wales with limited powers. Since then, devolution has evolved, and further powers have been devolved. I was very taken by the child poverty figures. Child poverty outcomes in the UK show us that child poverty rates are far too high. They are far too high in Scotland, at 21%. However, now that Scotland has used its devolved powers, its child poverty rate is much lower than the rate anywhere else in the UK, as a result of measures such as the introduction of the pioneering baby box. I am sure that we will see further push-down on that figure as a result of the increase of the Scottish child payment to £25 a week. I must pose a question: how much more might the Welsh Government be able to do if they had resources at their disposal, and the power to use them?

There is a similarity between much of what I heard the hon. Member for Delyn say this morning and what some of his counterparts in Scotland say. It comes down to a “What have the Romans ever done for us?” style of argument, if I can characterise it thus. I hear echoes of Michael Forsyth, as he was in old money; he is now Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. This is going back 25 years. When I was a student at Stirling University, he was for a short time my Member of Parliament, and in the lead-up to the 1997 general election, he said that devolution would create a costly and unnecessary tier of government. I am sure that the hon. Member for Delyn would agree with that assessment. I almost agreed with it at the time; it is just that, as a supporter of Scottish independence, I took a slightly different view about which tier of Government was the costly and unnecessary one. The argument used to be made: “What could devolved Governments do that an engaged Secretary of State couldn’t?” I would say that, first of all, there would have to be an engaged Secretary of State, which we did not always have, or they might not be engaged in a way that we liked. However, the fundamental point is about democracy; it is about people in Wales and Scotland always getting the Government that they vote for, and their being able to hold that Government to account, however they think best.

It is telling that despite people voting for devolution in Wales by a very slim margin in 1997, when the opportunity came along to empower the Welsh Assembly with legislative powers to make it a proper Parliament—the Senedd—people in Wales voted decisively for that. That showed that the institution had won its spurs, and that Welsh self-government had very firmly come of age.

[Rob Roberts]

The hon. Member is making some excellent points. However, I am interested in the idea that this thumping margin in 2011, when there was a vote for increased powers, somehow made things legitimate. The turnout in Senedd elections has never been more than 46%. How can he possibly say that such elections have legitimised the institution in the eyes of the people of Wales, when more than half of the country does not even turn out to vote in elections to the Senedd?

[Richard Thomson]

If turnout is low in Wales, then politicians there—perhaps even including the hon. Member—need to look at the prospectuses and the arguments that they are offering. If they cannot inspire people to turn out to vote, that is perhaps as much a reflection of some of the politicians and the quality of the debate being held as it is of anything else. Certainly, however, decisions in a democracy are taken by those who turn out, and there was a difference between the vote in 1997 and the vote to empower the Senedd; for me, a very clear message came out of the latter vote.

We have heard today a litany of woes about the alleged shortcomings of this quarter-century of various Welsh Governments. As a Front Bencher for the Scottish National party, I am certainly not here to defend the Labour party in any way, but my response to that charge is twofold. First, many of the complaints we have heard have been about the enactment and delivery of policies, rather than about the institution of the Welsh Government. Secondly, it really does not say a great deal for the Conservative party in Wales that, if things really are as dreadful as we are invited to believe, it has not been able to persuade enough people in Wales that it offers a compelling alternative to replace the Government. For all we have heard about Swansea and Cardiff, I know that Cardiff has elected Conservative representatives in the past. It is simply a question of providing a compelling prospectus, which is quite clearly not something that has been done.

We hear a similar refrain in Scotland from some quarters, which is to attack the institution and the party in power without offering a great deal that is positive in return. That is perhaps one of the reasons why the last time such arguments were put forward at a Scottish election, people in Scotland chose to re-elect my party to Government and came within a hair’s breadth of sacking the Conservatives as the official Opposition. I think that that is part of the political failure that goes some way toward explaining the current centralising tendencies in Westminster. As we have heard, there has been a power grab through the United Kingdom Internal Market Act, which was designed purely to undermine the democratic choices made directly by people in Scotland, Wales and elsewhere, and to make sure that the priorities they vote for are not the priorities they will necessarily get—all this led by a Conservative party in London that is incapable of persuading voters to elect it in sufficient numbers to govern in either Wales or Scotland.

Looking to the future, it is clear that devolution still has some significant shortcomings, despite the way that the institutions have developed. In Wales, I find it bizarre that a major infrastructure project such as High Speed 2 can go ahead without the consequentials feeding through to Wales for investment in Welsh infrastructure; and the failure to devolve the Crown Estate in Wales, as has happened in Scotland to great effect, is inexplicable. It seems to be a complete disjoint and mismatch in terms of the strategic nature of government. Given the apparent determination of the UK Government to reassert themselves in direct, day-to-day governance of devolved matters in Wales, it is absolutely bizarre that Ministers should be content to see the number of Welsh MPs elected to this place reduced from 40 to 32, further marginalising the voice of the people of Wales in this place.

I will address as independently and as gently as I can the argument from the hon. Member for Delyn against expanding the size of the Senedd, even though the Senedd currently has fewer Members than many local authorities in Scotland. Broadly speaking, the Members of any democratic institution can be subdivided into four categories across parties: those who are running it, those who could run it, those who used to run it, and those who we would not want anywhere within a million miles of ever being able to run it. Sadly, sometimes people in that last category even get to be Prime Minister. I am sure that each of us knows which category we would like to fall in; if we are very fortunate, perhaps our friends and colleagues might even agree with us.

My fundamental point is that the success of self-government, wherever it is, depends very much on the three Ps: the powers that you have, the policies that you enact, and the personnel who are elected. Perhaps unlike the hon. Member for Delyn, I have full confidence in the people of Wales to continue making what they see to be the best choices across each of these categories.

[Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I congratulate the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) on securing the debate, and I associate myself with his condolences to First Minister Mark Drakeford and his family.

It is a shame that the hon. Member has used the debate as an opportunity to talk down devolution. It seems he has done so to score political points, which is such a shame. His view is also at odds with the views of the vast majority of the people of Wales. A large number of surveys on devolution have consistently confirmed that people across Wales support devolution and, in some cases, the devolution of further powers. Those who support rolling back devolution or, at the other extreme, independence, are very much polarised on the margins. The vast majority of people are supportive; they can see the benefits and the evidence of what devolution has delivered for Wales under the stewardship of Welsh Labour.

The Labour party is the party of devolution. The UK Tory Government have no respect for devolution or devolved Government, and have taken every opportunity to undermine the devolution settlement. Devolution is one of the proudest achievements of the last Labour Government. Unlike the Tories, a UK Labour Government would respect devolution and the Sewel convention. In a report by the commission on the UK’s future, led by the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown, Labour proposes ways of modernising and updating our constitutional arrangements, improving the process of intergovernmental relations and putting more power in people’s hands. The Tories have overridden the Sewel convention on several occasions in recent years, disrespecting the devolution settlement.

Tory attacks on Wales and on Welsh Labour are born from desperation. They are fiddling while Rome burns in order to deflect attention from the shambles at Westminster, their failure to tackle the cost of living crisis effectively and their mismanagement of the economy. Historic underfunding of Wales has torn billions of pounds out of the Welsh budget, while the Tory-made economic crisis has only brought greater costs.

The spring Budget makes no provision for public sector pay and includes no funding for health or social care. The Budget was the Tories’ chance to use their financial levers and capacity to provide comprehensive and meaningful support, as well as to invest in public services, public sector pay and economic growth.

[Rob Roberts]

I thank the shadow Minister for proving my point succinctly: we have already had 25 years of saying that everything in Wales is London’s fault, so can we not have another 25 minutes saying it is all Westminster’s fault and instead address some of the points of the debate? What are the Welsh Government doing? How is devolution working? What are the outcomes for people in Wales and how are they making our lives better? It is not working.

[Gerald Jones]

Yet again the Conservatives have fallen woefully short, failing the people of Wales. We know the Tories promised Wales would not be a penny worse off, with EU regeneration funds replaced in full, but that is far from the case, with huge uncertainty over the shared prosperity fund leaving Wales worse off, while the scandal of levelling up for Wales has meant a Tory smash-and-grab, wrapped up in a sustained attack on devolution, instead of collaborative work with the Welsh Government and local authorities in Wales.

In his opening speech, the hon. Member focused on health, so let me inform him about some of the things the Welsh Government are doing across Wales and the difference a Labour Welsh Government have made. They will always invest to protect health and social care. We spend 14% more per person on health and social care in Wales than in England. While 13 years of Tory Government have been ruining and running our public services into the ground, we have been taking difficult decisions to provide a higher level of NHS funding per head in Wales, where we know the population is older, sicker and less well off.

The NHS is facing similar challenges across the UK, yet performance at major accident and emergency departments has been better in Wales than in England for the last five months. Waiting lists are growing faster in England than in Wales. In the six months to December 2022, waiting lists increased 0.4% in Wales and by 6% in England.

[Rob Roberts]

On that point, will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Gerald Jones]

I think the hon. Gentleman has said quite enough for now. In the last 12 months, waiting lists have increased by 7% in Wales and by 19% in England.

With the industrial action taking place, Welsh Labour Ministers have got around the table with trade unions, taking tough decisions to find whatever resources they can to negotiate a resolution to the current pay dispute. There is not enough money in the budget for a fully consolidated pay offer, but the Tories have not provided an adequate level of funding for years.

Welsh Labour is training more doctors and nurses year on year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) said, Welsh Labour has implemented the real living wage for social care workers, and has ensured that prescriptions and hospital parking are free, and care charges capped. Prescriptions are free in Wales, but people in England are being forced to go without medication they desperately need because they can no longer afford it. The NHS bursary was axed in England in 2016, but has been protected in Wales because of Labour’s values. In England, the 40% drop in student nurse applications over subsequent years has been widely attributed to the axing of the bursary.

In transport, despite having 5% of the UK population, 11% of track miles and 20% of level crossings, Wales receives only between 1% and 2% of rail enhancement funding. That is not a fair funding settlement.

The reality is that only Labour will devolve economic power and control out of Westminster. The next Labour Government will return power over its economic destiny to Wales, and the decision-making role for the Welsh Government on structural funds will be restored.

There is a number of examples of businesses in Wales receiving more support during the recent pandemic. Vaccination rates were higher, and delivery in Wales was consistently faster than in England. PPE procurement was transparent and cost-effective, in stark contrast to the experience at Westminster under the Tories. Welsh Labour’s trusted decision making protected lives and livelihoods, which was without doubt reflected in Welsh Labour’s historic 2021 Senedd election victory.

To work even more effectively, devolution needs a strong partnership between the Welsh Government and a United Kingdom Labour Government, working together to deliver the priorities of the people of Wales and ensuring that Wales has a strong part to play in a strong United Kingdom. I hope we will not have too long to wait for that, depending on when the Prime Minister calls the next general election.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Dr James Davies)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) on securing the debate, which has triggered a wide-ranging discussion on Welsh devolution.

As we have heard throughout the debate, devolution in Wales has evolved considerably since the incredibly close referendum in 1997, when I was still in school—quite possibly, my hon. Friend was too. Successive UK Governments have devolved further powers to Cardiff Bay in an attempt to place the settlement on a firmer footing and to put more responsibility and accountability at its heart. That has included providing powers to make primary legislation in devolved areas, and powers to introduce replacements for stamp duty land tax and landfill tax in Wales, as well as the introduction of a new Welsh rate of income tax and powers for Welsh Ministers to borrow to fund capital expenditure.

Nowadays, the devolution settlement is based on the reserved powers model, in line with that in place in Scotland. The devolved Administration have greater powers to manage their own affairs, as well as matters relating to elections, transport and natural resources. There has been a great deal of debate this morning about the future of Welsh devolution and whether the current boundary between devolved and reserved powers is correct. It is clear that different views exist, and we must acknowledge that they are reflected among the people of Wales.

In the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn focused on disappointing policy outcomes with reference to Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, education, transport and so on. He also talked of the north-south divide in Wales, and the sad disengagement with politics—turnout at the last devolved election was just under 47%, compared with 67% at the general election.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) intervened to talk about his desire to see local representation wherever possible, and more positive comments came from the hon. Members for Gordon (Richard Thomson), for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) and for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones). The hon. Member for Llanelli talked about the importance of the accessibility of Ministers at all levels of government, and co-operation too.

I am firmly of the opinion that the overwhelming priority of the people of Wales is not an incessant, one-way transfer of powers down the M4, or a route to more separatism, but delivery on the important matters of the day, such as health, the cost of living and education. Sadly, we continue to see poor levels of interest and awareness of the roles of our various and different levels of Government, and therefore often limited democratic accountability.

In the context of Wales, it is important to remember that 50% of the population of Wales live within 25 miles of the border with England, which does influence how many people view the devolved settlement. Bringing decision making on devolved issues closer to people affected by them is one of the real opportunities of the devolution agenda, but it would be remiss of me, as we reflect on the last 25 years of devolution in Wales, not to acknowledge that there are legitimate concerns among many in Wales about devolution and the direction of travel that has been taken in Cardiff Bay.

All too often, we have seen attempts to centralise decision making within the Welsh Government, which goes against the concept of true devolution. Contrary to some of the arguments that have been made today, it has been particularly pleasing to me to see this Government deliver on our promises of true devolution in the allocation of shared prosperity funding. I have seen that at first hand in Denbighshire, my own county, as a member of the county’s shared prosperity fund partnership group, which allows new and refreshing approaches to local problems and opportunities, driven by local people.

[Rob Roberts]

The Minister makes a good point. It reminded me of the point the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made about local decision making. About two years ago, the First Minister appeared in front of the Welsh Affairs Committee. I remember asking him whether he was going to devolve more powers to the regions—specifically, to north Wales—as he had previously said that he thought that was a good idea. I asked him when those powers were going to come and what powers they were going to be, as none had materialised. I think the First Minister was a little bit indignant at the question. Does the Minister agree that the current arrangement of devolution is not working, and a potential solution might be to give more autonomy to north Wales to make some decisions for itself?

[Dr Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a strong argument. In fact, he will be aware that one of the Labour Members in the Senedd called for greater powers and autonomy for north Wales in response to the recent roads review, and today a representative of the business community in north Wales has called for a directly elected mayor for north Wales. It comes back to my point that devolution should be true in nature; it should be led by local people and local representatives, which is not always the case at present.

Under the Welsh Labour Government, the economy in Wales is growing at a slower rate than in the rest of the UK. In education, Wales is, sadly, at the bottom of the PISA rankings compared with other parts of the UK. In the health service, we see abysmal performance and outcomes data, and we also see what I regard as very detrimental policies on road building and tourism. All of that is despite the UK Government providing the Welsh Government with record funding, which is, as we have heard, higher per head of population than in England.

The UK Government have a duty of care towards all British citizens and it is important that UK-wide comparable data is used to justify and learn from different policy approaches across the country. The days of “devolve and forget” have to be over. I am deeply concerned that, despite the challenges the Welsh economy faces and failing devolved public services in Wales, the Welsh Government’s unrelenting focus is often on constitutional matters, including increasing the number of politicians in Cardiff Bay and changing its voting system, which some have suggested would be at a cost of £100 million over five years.

Devolution in Wales means that Wales has two Governments. Both should be fully focused on the issues that really matter: levelling up our economy, creating jobs and supporting people with the cost of living. The UK Government’s investment to address those priorities, through initiatives such as the levelling-up fund and our support with energy costs, highlights the benefits that Wales enjoys from being part of the United Kingdom.

I want to emphasise something that is not always said. A very clear majority in Wales believe in the United Kingdom and are proud to be part of it, and this place—Parliament—will always have a critical role in delivering for Wales and its people. Our approach to devolution is underpinned by our commitment to work collaboratively with the Welsh Government and all the devolved Administrations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Roberts]

I thank all hon. Members, from all parts of the House, for their constructive approach to the debate. I would like to pick up briefly on a couple of points. The hon. Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) spoke passionately and well about the Welsh Government, the Senedd and the structures. She said on a number of occasions that the Welsh Government have taken action. With the north Wales health board being eight years in special measures, taking action will sound a little hollow to my constituents, unfortunately.

The shadow Minister accused me of using the debate for nothing more than scoring points. I asked him about outcomes, but he ignored the point and did not address anything. He covered exactly the ground that I had mentioned in my opening remarks. His entire contribution was about what happens here, and nothing to do with the nature of devolution or what the Welsh Government do. I thank him for proving my point so perfectly.

The shadow Minister used the word “vast” several times: a “vast” number of people in Wales—a “vast” majority are supportive of the Senedd. In fact, 35% of people turned out in 2011 for the referendum that the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) mentioned, with regard to increasing powers. That is hardly a shining example of legitimacy for an institution of which people are vastly supportive.

I am in danger of rehashing all the points I made earlier, so I will not do so. It is sad that the Minister was not able to commit to giving the people of Wales another say on whether that institution should persist. It should be okay; I am sure the Labour party would support it, because after all, the “vast majority” of people in Wales are in favour of the Senedd—I suspect not.

I thank everybody for their contributions. I hope this will be the start of a series of discussions on the constitutional future not only of Wales, but of Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is something we do not often debate, although it is so important to the outcomes, the lives and the day-to-day activities of the people we are sent here to serve.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the matter of 25 years of devolution in Wales.

Welsh Affairs

Rob Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 2nd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock). I congratulate the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), who is well respected on both sides of the House, on securing this debate and opening it wonderfully. It is disappointing that her hair is not red, white and green just for today, but we do like it purple.

Yesterday morning, we went to New Palace Yard with Mr Speaker, some dignitaries and some fantastic children in full traditional attire to see the raising of the Welsh flag above Parliament. The children sang a beautiful song about Dewi Sant and presented Mr Speaker with some lovely daffodils, and those who knew the words sang the national anthem. Before taking pictures, my assistant said, “You don’t have a daffodil like everybody else.” My response was quite a cliché: “I don’t need one. I’ve got my Welsh pride with me in my heart every day, everywhere I go. I don’t need to wear a flower to show it to everybody else.” It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but that is how I and so many people across the length and breadth of Wales really feel about our country.

The feeling of Welsh patriotism, strangely, is often a little bit more like a religion. Such is the depth of feeling of a Welsh person for their country, and everyone knows it. Even in these challenging sporting times for Wales, you will not hear a more stirring national anthem anywhere in the world than the one sung by 70,000 Welsh rugby fans blasting the roof off the Principality stadium. If you will indulge me, Mr Deputy Speaker, as St David’s day comes just once a year, it is the words of the rarely heard second verse that I find most enjoyable:

“Hen Gymru fynyddig, paradwys y bardd;

Pob dyffryn, pob clogwyn, i’m golwg sydd hardd,

Trwy deimlad gwladgarol, mor swynol yw si,

Ei nentydd, afonydd, i mi.”

For the benefit of those who do not know the verse, the translation is:

“Old land of the mountains, paradise of the poets,

Every valley, every cliff a beauty guards;

Through love of my country, enchanting voices will be

Her streams and rivers to me.”

That speaks volumes about the country and how it is regarded by the people.

A little while back, in preparation for this debate, I asked my constituents via social media to suggest what they would say themselves, or what they would like me to say, about life in Wales and how things are run. I will touch on a number of those themes now, only partly apologising for getting a bit more political during the remainder of my speech. As the hon. Member for Swansea East said in her opening speech, we are here to represent the views of our constituents.

Kathryn had a lot of points to bring up about life in Wales. She wanted to talk about travel, roads, the NHS, the disparities in local authority funding and the north-south divide. Dave asked about dentistry. Julie, a pharmacy worker, asked about the NHS and why there was no uniformity between systems and records. I shall say more about that later. Kyle asked about roads and public transport, Billy had more to say about the NHS, Paul asked about a new train station, and Len made a point about devolution generally, which I will save until the end of my speech. Quentin helpfully asked, “Why is it that male voice choirs always sound so good?”. That is a fair question, but it will remain one of life’s unexplained mysteries, true as it is.

The predominant issue that keeps coming up in the responses from my constituents, and in the many emails and letters that I receive each week asking for help, is health and social care. I was here, in this very spot, exactly a week ago to take part in a debate on the future of the NHS, initiated by the hon. Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne). Opposition Members lined up to take shots at the UK Government for their mismanagement of the NHS. One after another, they rose to their feet saying that Labour had a plan for the NHS. I was delighted to hear it. I intervened a couple of times to commend them for having a plan, and asked if they could please share it with their colleague the Welsh Labour Health Minister, who did not seem to have one at all.

In North Wales, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board was put back into special measures earlier this week and all the members of the management board were relieved of their positions, with an interim chair and board put in place until replacements are found. That was the action of the Welsh Health Minister: removing the board which seemed to be the only body even trying to hold the failing executives to account, while allowing the executives and senior management team who had presided over a decade of failure to carry on. For it has been, sadly, a decade of failure—at least. The health board had been in special measures for about eight years until a few weeks before the most recent Senedd election, when it was announced with great fanfare that it was no longer in special measures. The political opportunism was astonishing, as Welsh Labour once again made winning votes a higher priority than the health of the people of north Wales. Nothing had changed, and nothing has changed now. Back into special measures the health board goes, but that does not mean anything: it has been like that for ages, and still nothing changes, including the Welsh Health Minister.

If the level of disastrous oversight of health services in north Wales were seen in England, His Majesty’s loyal Opposition would be calling for the resignation of the Secretary of State and his entire ministerial team, but it’s okay, it’s just north Wales—just north Wales, where only 62% of NHS buildings are operationally safe to use. In England, one in 20 people on waiting lists have been waiting more than a year—5%—while in Wales the figure is one in four, or 25%.

The health service in Wales performs worse in virtually every measurable area than the equivalent in England. Currently, only 51% of “red call” patients are responded to within eight minutes. That is the second longest ambulance wait time ever. Only 23% of amber calls, which include heart attacks and strokes, were responded to within 30 minutes. Where is the outrage? Where are the demands for a better service? Instead, we heard the Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), say in a speech last year that the Welsh Government were providing a

“blueprint for what Labour can do across the UK”.

You couldn’t make it up, Mr Deputy Speaker.

However, as I said during last week’s debate, none of these statistics help. While we, as politicians in this place and in the media, spend all our time pointing fingers and trying to apportion blame, we never get to the actual issues. The NHS is failing in all parts of the United Kingdom, under three different ruling parties. This is not a political problem but a structural one, and the more time we spend finding someone to blame and making foolish points that shut down any prospect of sensible debate—such as, “You just want to privatise everything”—the lower is the chance of any positive change that will make a real difference in outcomes for people.

As I mentioned earlier, Julie asked about uniformity of records and systems. It is ridiculous that if I had an accident or a medical problem while on holiday in Cornwall or Inverness, the medical professionals there would not be able to access my records because they are on NHS Wales systems. That enforced division is so harmful to the cohesion of the UK and our sense of community. We have spent years on an issue that thankfully, or hopefully, the Prime Minister seems to have finally solved —an issue that annexed and divided one part of the UK from the rest—but in so many small ways, we segregate and divide ourselves from each other on an ever-increasing basis. It is such a shame.

This morning, I received an email from a local reporter saying that they were running a story on the lack of availability of housing in Flintshire, and asking whether I would like to comment. The sad fact is that over the past three years, 665 new homes have been built in the average constituency across the UK, while in Delyn the figure is just 276, or 40% of the average. We have a huge lack of social housing, with people waiting on the list for years in the hope of a property becoming available, and virtually none are being built. However, I cannot lay the blame at the door of Flintshire County Council, as Flintshire receives the 20th highest funding settlement among the 22 local authorities in Wales every year.

[Mark Tami]

Will the hon. Gentleman applaud Flintshire County Council for actually building council houses, which we need more of?

[Rob Roberts]

Absolutely. I completely agree with my constituency neighbour. As I said, I cannot blame Flintshire County Council for this at all. It does what it can with the meagre resources it receives from the Welsh Government. [Interruption.] The shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens), is shouting across the Chamber about the Treasury Bench, but this has nothing to do with the Treasury Bench. I am talking about the way in which the money is divided by the Welsh Government, and how it is allotted to the different authorities. As I said, Flintshire County Council comes 20th out of the 22 Welsh authorities every year.

[Mark Tami]

That clearly was not the case this year, was it, so will the hon. Gentleman put the record straight?

[Rob Roberts]

It was the case this year. On a per capita basis, Flintshire was 20th out of 22, as was recently stated by the council’s chief executive. There is no denying it whatsoever.

[Stephen Crabb]

My hon. Friend made an interesting point earlier about structural challenges in the NHS. He has now moved on to the subject of local authorities. Does he think that, for a nation of 3.3 million people, a total of 22 local authorities is too many?

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Roberts]

I think that arguably it is. We should also consider the number of elected representatives we have, and the wish to increase that even further. London—which is a good example—has a population of 10 million, and significantly fewer elected representatives and decision-making bodies. I do agree with my right hon. Friend: 22 is far too many, whereas, in bizarre contrast, one health board covering the huge geographical area and diversity of north Wales seems, sadly, not to be enough.

Flintshire is so poorly funded by the Welsh Government that in order for services to be maintained, council tax in my constituency has risen by about 30% in the past couple of years. Given that my constituency also has about 25% more over-65s and elderly people than the national average, this is a huge problem for a constituency some parts of which are already among the top 10% of the most deprived areas in Wales. Other local authorities are in the top five for funding every year, despite having dozens of millions of pounds in unallocated reserves. It will come as a surprise to no one in the north that four out of the top five local authorities for funding each year are in the south. If Flintshire were simply given the average funding—if the funds were just levelled out and distributed in a fairer way—that would put an additional £20 million a year into Flintshire, and my constituents would not need to see reduced services at an ever-increasing cost.

Finally, let me say a little about transport. The Welsh Government announced recently that it was scrapping the majority of its road building projects, most of which were cancelled because of the attempt to get people out of cars and into other modes of transport. As parliamentarians we spend a great deal of time in London, and we recognise that public transport is better than cars in many instances; but that is London, which contains nearly 10 million people in a small area. In north Wales, about 750,000 people are spread across a vast geography of coastal and mountainous terrain. There is no realistic prospect for people to abandon their cars and use public transport, even if it were good, but unfortunately the public transport facilities throughout north Wales are terrible. Trains and buses run sporadically. When they do run, they are rarely on time. Public transport is simply not feasible, so to hear that the people of north Wales are being told that they should switch to alternative modes of travel, that they should submit to the increasingly pervasive active travel solution that asks pensioners to walk up the steep hills of Delyn’s towns in the name of reducing emissions, is ludicrous.

The roads policy, as well as the Welsh Government’s ridiculous move to reduce the speed limit from 30 mph to 20 mph from September, is nothing short of an attack on car users, not caring that car use is crucial in north Wales. Along with things like the tourism tax and falling educational standards, it is just another way in which the Welsh Government are systematically destroying the country that many of us love so dearly.

One of my respondents on social media spoke about devolution, which does not work for us in north Wales. It is a failed 25-year experiment that has delivered absolutely nothing for the people of north Wales, and now the Welsh Government want to expand it even further, at the cost of another £100 million.

It is my abiding wish, which I am sure will never come to fruition, that the UK Government look at what is happening in north Wales, put aside their seeming political position of “devolve and forget” and do something to help us by bringing forward measures to test the will of the Welsh people once again on whether they want to continue with this failed experiment.

May 2024 will be the 25th anniversary of the establishment of the Senedd, and I live in hope that 2049 will be the 25th anniversary of its abolition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), a good friend, for securing this debate and congratulate her on doing so. It has been a great week; the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) has spoken about the Wales in London events, which have been tremendous. Being at the Guildhall last night with so many people celebrating our Welshness was an honour and I really enjoyed it. It is funny that we are here.

My hon. Friend has spoken about the amazing work she has done with colleagues, and I have had the honour of being able to work with her as well. This gives me the opportunity to talk a little about a charity—this goes hand in hand with the work she has been doing—called The Sharing Table. It was set up a few years ago by Andrew Copson, an amazing man who has given his time to fundraise, with a lot of support from local people, and to make partnerships, particularly with Gower Gin; Andrew and Siân support the charity, as key partners. The Shared Table delivered more than 130 hampers of locally sourced meat and veg to people in Gower last Christmas—when this started it was just 13 hampers in 2019. I thank Hugh Phillips, the butcher, and Shepherds for making that possible, along with Carolyn Harris—sorry, I meant to say, “My hon. Friend”. I do that all the time, Mr Deputy Speaker, as you know, but I do apologise.

That charity has also put and is putting small kitchens into schools. We talk about food poverty, but it is important that young people and families learn how to cook and what different food tastes like when we face a health crisis and a cost of living crisis. It is important that children learn what different fruits and vegetables taste like and what to do with them. One of the latest kitchens that has opened is in the constituency of my hon. Friend, in Morriston. I hope that by working alongside Swansea Council the charity will put more kitchens into schools and work with young people and their parents so that they can cook a well-balanced family meal. That is key and that work is amazing.

The right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire mentioned the beautiful city of St Davids in his constituency. I spend many of my holidays there and I do not send him any emails to say that I am there. I was honoured to be there at Christmas to spend time with my family, and being in the cathedral for mass is a wonderful experience. If anybody gets the opportunity to do that at Christmas, it really is something special.

I do not wish to leave out the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake), my very good friend. As he knows, Aberaeron, has a special place in my heart. My auntie and uncle live there and my godparents used to live there. I am not going to go through everybody and say how wonderful their constituency is, because I must say that the Gower constituency is the most beautiful place to live. I am very proud of everybody who lives there—my constituents, who continue to support me and give generously.

My constituents also speak highly of the potential of Swansea bay. I know that the Secretary of State has done a lot of work on what was to be the Swansea bay tidal lagoon, which we now hope will realise itself in the blue lagoon project. The potential of Wales and the green industrial revolution has been mentioned. I do look to him for support for the Labour-led Swansea Council and its leader Rob Stewart in terms of harnessing the tidal energy that we have in Swansea bay.

I will have a bit of a rant now, Mr Deputy Speaker. A year ago today, I spoke up in this House about the Welsh Rugby Union. The right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire told us how he had heard an amazing advocate for women’s football, and football, in Wales last night. There are many, many people who are amazing advocates for rugby in Wales, and I am one of them. I believe passionately that being Welsh also means having a sense of identity. For me, many, many moons ago, that meant being able to represent my country by playing rugby for Wales. I find it really hard to believe that we are too scared—the hon. Member for Ceredigion also made reference to rugby—because we are having a bit of a tough time in Wales. It makes me sad that we cannot big up the talent that we have. I want to big up our talent. We have an amazing captain of our men’s team in Ken Owens. He is an amazing man, one of the bravest. All the team are brave, because the situation in which they find themselves is really difficult for all of them and for their families, but they are not looking for pity. What they want is to make rugby better. I did not stand up in this House a year ago to say, “Isn’t it terrible what’s going on? Isn’t rugby awful in Wales?” It is our job in this place to call out poor practice and poor governance when they impact on how we feel about our sport, which is rugby in Wales.

Since I spoke up about the culture of misogyny and sexism a year ago, much has happened. I know that the former Secretary of State met the women’s team. He told me that, by the time he had left the Chamber, he had been invited by the Welsh Rugby Union to pay a visit to the Vale to meet the women’s team. I was really disappointed—not with him, I was glad he went—that, having spoken out, nothing much really happened. It took some very brave women and an amazing journalistic team in “BBC Wales Investigates” to pull together evidence of the poor behaviour in the Welsh Rugby Union. In my inbox, I have more than 30 emails to reply to. They are from women and families—and men—who have written to tell me about their experiences with the Welsh Rugby Union. That is a lot of people who want to tell me about their experiences, but there are also quite a few people who do not want to tell of their experiences to anybody, because they fear the backlash. Charlotte Wathan, who spoke out in the BBC Wales programme, is scared that she will never get a job now. She may have made herself unemployable. She needs to work, but she has spoken out. She has not done that because she wants to be on a 30-minute programme on BBC Wales, and have the focus of everything on her.

Another woman who spoke out was anonymous. An actor spoke her words. Why was that? Why did Amanda Blanc, the chief executive of Aviva, step down from the executive board? To be honest, why were those questions not asked? So far what we have seen is the departure of the chief executive of the WRU, which is probably right. But it is not just about one person. This is a cultural system that is impacting not just on women in sport—in this case rugby—but on the men. That is because the culture has also impacted on the wellbeing of our men’s team as well. It is a culture and it is everywhere.

I am glad that a taskforce has been set up by Sport Resolutions, funded by the WRU, to address these issues. I ask the Secretary of State to support me—I have told him how many people want to speak out—and to look for reassurances from Sport Resolutions. Will he state today that the anonymity of the people who need to speak to Sport Resolutions and to the taskforce that it is setting up will be kept at all costs? Otherwise, we will never get to the bottom of it, which makes the taskforce absolutely futile.

I never thought that after nearly six years in this place, I would be standing in the Chamber ranting about rugby, but it means so much to me and it makes our country proud. Somebody said, “All this talking down of rugby in Wales is not going to encourage young people to play sport,” but that is nonsense. Playing sport—whatever sport it is—getting out there and being part of a team is the best thing that anyone can do. It is brilliant.

I am not saying that Wales is a terrible place or that rugby is a terrible sport; it is not. In my heart, I want it to be better—the best it can be. I want Warren Gatland to go to that World cup, with Ken Owens running out as the captain, and do the best he can to show how brilliant it is to be Welsh, so that we can feel proud of those boys and girls on the pitch. The women’s Six Nations is coming up, and the girls had quite a good season last year, so it is an exciting time to be in rugby.

Jonathan Davies, or Jiffy as we fondly know him, spoke out on “Scrum V” just after the programme had aired on BBC Wales. He said that this is a moment in time—a turning point—and that if the Welsh Rugby Union and rugby in Wales do not get their act together now, they never will. As parliamentarians, we have to put pressure on the Welsh Rugby Union to make the right decisions and to be transparent.

[Rob Roberts]

The hon. Lady is making a wonderful speech. She is right that the range of subjects that we discuss in the Chamber is often a surprise to the general public, and rugby in Wales is a particularly hot topic. Does she agree, in the spirit of what she has said, that the people who are trying to brush this issue under the carpet need to understand that, in such cases, sunlight is often the best disinfectant?

[Tonia Antoniazzi]

It is not often that I agree with the hon. Member, but sunlight, transparency and asking those questions are the best things.

I find it hard to believe that there have been such a number of grievances and non-disclosure agreements at the Welsh Rugby Union. Let us make no bones about it: all organisations will have grievances and non-disclosure agreements, but it is important that someone sitting on an executive board should be told how many there are and what their nature is, otherwise they might go to a Senedd Select Committee and not be able to tell it how many grievances and non-disclosure agreements there are. I find that difficult, because the data should be held by human resources and available to at least the executive committee. What does it tell us when there are no minutes of meetings and the minutes are not routinely published or available? It tells us that there is no sunlight, which we need to have.

When I am told that what has happened at the WRU is bigger than at Yorkshire cricket, and that is confirmed by others who know what is going on, I hope that we will all—I am not precious about it—stand up and ask those questions if we have the opportunity to meet the WRU. We need a root and branch review of rugby in Wales and what it means for everybody in all those clubs across Wales, from a small child starting off in tag rugby to those in our elite male and female games, as well as the mums and dads watching on the sidelines and washing the kit. I have met with my clubs since this has all come out and, interestingly, they have been quite engaging. We all need to ask our rugby clubs—although this is not just about rugby—how they engage with women and girls. They do not have to have a women’s team, because it is not all about playing. It is about being part of a club, being a rugby wife, rugby mum or rugby sister—a fan of the sport. If we can get clubs to audit the skills of the women and girls involved in them, that will encourage them to get more women sitting on their committees. Having more women give up their time to do that is how we will get more parity and equality of representation at the top of the WRU.

--- Later in debate ---

[David T. C. Davies]

I am aware of probably three schemes ongoing at the moment within the rail network enhancements pipeline project, which I hope will be brought to fruition shortly, but I support as much spending as possible on the railways in Wales.

I might be being discourteous to the shadow Secretary of State, because I promised to speak for about seven minutes. Let me quickly say, because it was of interest to the hon. Member for Swansea West, that on university research funding, I committed to go around all the eight universities in Wales as quickly as I could. I am currently doing that, and I think I am on about No. 5. I have been looking at what they have to offer in terms of research, to see the best of it and to bring everyone to an event in London to meet UK Research and Innovation so that we can get more UKRI funding into Wales. That is something that I am happy to update him about shortly.

The hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson) made a wonderful speech. He almost seemed to be apologetic about representing a non-Welsh constituency, but most of us in this Chamber are proud Unionists and we welcome hon. Members from all parts of the Union. He spoke about the fantastic character Archibald Hood, who is described in the book “From Rosewell to the Rhondda”. Clearly Mr Hood, 150 years ago, was making the most of the opportunities we have to move around the Union. Let me say tapadh leat, which I think is Scottish Gaelic for thank you, to the hon. Gentleman.

The hon. Member for Cardiff Central rightly acknowledged the huge bravery of the Ukrainian people, 6,000 of whom are in Wales. In Chepstow last week, I met Ukrainian constituents, as the hon. Lady has done—they are now our constituents. We say, “Croeso mawr i bob un ohonyn nhw.” They are all incredibly welcome in Wales. We hope that they have an opportunity to go back to their country at some point, but we are delighted that they are here at the moment.

The hon. Member made a point about the cost of living crisis. I will take a leaf out of my own book and say that we absolutely acknowledge it: there is a cost of living crisis. That is why we have been prioritising our help for pensioners by making sure that pensions, benefits and the minimum wage go up in line with inflation. We have been making payments of £900 to those who are on benefits, £300 to pensioners and £150 to those who are on disability benefits. We are spending £18 billion this winter to ensure that around half of people’s energy bills are being paid. What we certainly will not do is ban meal deals, because that would hit people in the pocket.

[Rob Roberts]

The shadow Secretary of State said that Welsh Labour is putting more money in the pockets of Welsh people. Labour has a penchant for fantasy economics. Does the Secretary of State agree that before devolution the average wage in Wales was exactly the same as the average wage in Scotland, but now—25 years later—it is 20% lower?

Welsh Affairs

Rob Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 25th February 2021 Commons Chamber

[Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)]

I recently asked some of my constituents for their thoughts on living in north Wales, and the vast majority of them told me just how lucky they felt. I could not agree with them more. North Wales has a rich culture and history, outstanding natural beauty and, most importantly, that close-knit sense of community that means it is a fantastic place to live, work and raise a family. However, while I wish it was all positive feedback, my constituents also told me that they feel altogether let down and ignored by the Welsh Labour Government and that Cardiff places far too much emphasis on south Wales, often meaning that the people of the north feel like a forgotten afterthought.

There are still those who falsely claim that the reason the Welsh Government are failing the people of north Wales is underfunding from the UK Government, but we all know that that is not the case. It is just standard rhetoric. Just this morning, in fact, the Welsh Minister for Transport gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee, and he was super-excited to mention the investment of around £750 million in the south Wales metro scheme, but when I asked why less than a tenth of that was being spent on the north Wales equivalent, he abdicated responsibility to a lack of investment from Westminster. So, when there is investment, it is down to the wonderful Welsh Government, but when they choose to spend their money in the south instead of the north, that is Westminster’s fault and nothing to do with them at all.

I think the people of north Wales are finally beginning to see through that, and beginning to recognise that they will never get a fair crack of the whip while the Welsh Government are run by a Labour party that is concerned only with appeasing its core voters in the south. At no point in the period of devolution has spending on health in Wales relative to England matched the levels of relative need. In England, spending on health has increased by 150% in that period, but in Wales it has increased by only 98%, so we will take no lectures from Opposition Members as to who is more committed to the welfare of the NHS.

Sadly, the theme of underfunding continues into education. The Welsh Local Government Association highlighted the scale of the pressure facing school budgets, and just today the Children’s Commissioner for Wales published a report on home education and independent schools, in which she concluded that there has been a “lack of progress” and that

“the Welsh Government has failed…to protect the rights of children”

in those areas.

Fortunately, this Conservative Government are committed to their levelling-up agenda and will make sure that every part of the UK benefits from it. I was delighted to see the announcement yesterday that the £4 billion levelling-up fund will be increased to almost £5 billion and will now include the UK Government investing directly in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland so that my constituents in north Wales will no longer be forgotten.

To conclude, as one of my constituents said to me, “The Welsh Government just needs to do better.” I say back to constituents that we all have an opportunity to change that in a couple of months’ time and to finally see a Welsh Government that works for everyone in our wonderful country.

Oral Answers to Questions

Rob Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies]

We certainly are not playing politics with people’s lives. The hon. Lady will be aware that 25% of the workforce of Wales travel over to England to work there, and playing politics with people’s lives potentially means looking at livelihoods as well. The reality is that we have followed the science all the way through this process and, more or less, the Welsh Government have followed exactly what the UK Government are doing.

[Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)]

The hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) says we should follow the science, but 10 minutes ago, Public Health Wales told me that it did not even carry out a community-level analysis prior to instigating these lockdown measures. Does my hon. Friend agree that this virus does not respect county borders and that, once again, all the Labour Welsh Government are doing is throttling businesses and letting down the people of north Wales?

[David T. C. Davies]

First, let me wish my hon. Friend penblwydd hapus for tomorrow. It is the case, of course, that this virus does not respect boundaries, but the UK Government do. Although I fully accept that some people may have concerns about the slightly different approach the Welsh Government sometimes adopt in this matter, the UK Government respect devolution and the reality of Welsh government, and my role as a Minister is to work constructively with Welsh Government Ministers. At this moment, I do not wish to start playing politics and criticising them.

Welsh Affairs

Rob Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 27th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Christina Rees]

The hon. Member makes some very good points. It has been a concern of mine for a long time that the Welsh Government have not been involved in the negotiations. They have to be involved; this is the future of Wales that we are talking about. I am really disappointed that they have not been involved to the extent that they should have been.

Now I come to the good bit. The House will know how passionate I am about sport. Wales is a sporting nation. When Wales wins the people of Wales are very happy. When we lose it is the end of the world. I went to the Wales versus Italy match, which was a great result, as the House knows—I don’t think I want to talk about the other matches, so I will move swiftly on.

My constituency of Neath has a proud sporting history. The Welsh Rugby Union was created in the Castle Hotel in Neath. The best player in the world, Gareth Edwards, was born and bred in Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen. Dan Biggar’s family was born and bred in the Dulais valley, where I live, as was Dennis Gethin, who recently stood down as chair of the WRU. Of course, Neath RFC are also called the All Blacks—a great tribute.

In a former life I was a squash player and played for Wales over 100 times. It was a great honour to pull on the red jersey of Wales. I became national coach for Squash Wales, and one of my roles was to develop squash for all ages and all standards throughout Wales. We have a superb junior development structure, which has produced some great players. I am very proud to say that on St David’s Day we will have two senior players ranked in the top 10 in the world, and they have both come through the junior structure: Tesni Evans, based in Prestatyn, is two times British champion and bronze medallist at the last Commonwealth games; and Joel Makin from Aberdare, a member of the Welsh men’s team who came third in the last world championships. Wales is again showing that we are punching above our weight.

[Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Christina Rees]

Sure—a squash player?

[Rob Roberts]

Not a squash player, but almost. On a sporting theme, would the hon. Member be kind enough to pay tribute to the wonderful Jade Jones from Flint in my constituency who has, since the last time this debate was held—since last St David’s Day, in fact—become 2019 world champion in taekwondo?

[Christina Rees]

Of course I will. Jade is fantastic advocate for women’s sport, and I am glad that the hon. Member intervened to mention her.

Coming back to squash, there is a great injustice. We have been campaigning for many years to get squash into the Olympics. It has never been included, despite having championships at every national and international level. I have been banging on about this for quite a few years, so I ask all Members to join me to ensuring that squash becomes an Olympic sport.

I am not the only Welsh Labour MP who has represented Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) is a Welsh rugby international. I must say that that game is far too tough for me; one good tackle and I think I would be done for, so I will stay off the rugby field.

That is enough from me. I look forward to all Members’ contributions and wish the whole House a happy St David’s Day for Sunday.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)]

Celebrated Welsh poet T.H. Parry-Williams wrote in his famous work “Hon”:

“Beth yw’r ots gennyf i am Gymru? Damwain a hap

Yw fy mod yn ei libart yn byw. Nid yw hon ar fap

Yn ddim byd ond cilcyn o ddaear mewn cilfach gefn,

Ac yn dipyn o boendod i’r rhai sy’n credu mewn trefn.”

Unfortunately, that is sometimes how the people of Wales think. The translation of the words, which does not quite encapsulate the feeling of the piece, is:

“What do I care of Wales? It is by accident and chance

That I am living here freely. She isn’t on a map

And is nothing but a piece of land in a hidden creek,

And a bit of a nuisance to those who believe in order.”

In the rest of the poem, Parry-Williams was searching for the “Welsh way”, questioning the relevance of Welsh culture in society and the blaming of the country’s problems on the English, when in fact sometimes our problems can be closer to home and generated by ourselves.

What a neat segue into devolution that is! Who would have thought that this theme would be repeated so often at the Senedd in Cardiff? Every week at First Minister’s questions and other departmental questions, inquiries are made about transport services in Wales, where the providers are asked to make changes such as making it possible to get from Holyhead to Cardiff in four hours on the train, but they can only do so by cutting out a raft of local stations from the programme, and they then have to take the complaints imposed on them by the requirements of the Welsh Government. Inquiries are made about educational standards in Wales, where our hard-working teachers are asked to do more with less and feel more disenfranchised and unsupported. Inquiries are also made about health in Wales, where four out of the seven health boards are in special measures or have some form of targeted intervention, with the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in north Wales having been in that state for almost five years. Our health boards have some of the most dedicated and caring professionals, who come in every day to fight fires and battle against a system at breaking point.

Every week, when those questions are asked in the Senedd, there is only one answer from the First Minister and his colleagues: “Westminster doesn’t send us enough money.” That is the stock response every time, yet for every £1 spent on the NHS in England, there is around 15% more available to be spent on the NHS in Wales—it is just poorly spent and targeted in the wrong ways. T.H. Parry-Williams was right: we cannot just keep blaming the English for all our ills. We need to look closer to home.

Like my right hon. Friends the Members for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) and for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), I was amazed during the campaign just how few people I spoke to on the doorstep realised which services are devolved and which are not. A lot of people complained to me about the health service in north Wales without realising that it is the responsibility of the Welsh Government. A&E waiting times have been the worst on record for two months in a row, and in education, 2019 GCSE results were no better than in 2007, but the number of people who continually blame Westminster for those challenges is staggering. I consider it very important over the next 14 months, in the run-up to the Welsh elections in May 2021, to highlight to people just who is responsible for what, so that their frustrations—and, indeed, occasional praise—can be directed to the appropriate places.

The Wales Act 2017 delivered a clearer and more stable devolution settlement for Wales by devolving important powers to the Senedd on energy, transport and local government. At the 2018 Budget, the UK Government announced plans to increase the Welsh Government’s budget by £1.2 billion, including a 5% Barnett boost of £67 million over the next five years. Subsequently, at the September 2019 spending round, the Government increased funding for the Welsh Government by a further £600 million. They cannot keep complaining that they do not have enough funding; they just need to make better choices.

There are still issues and problems with the funding formula for Wales. The Barnett formula—that short-term measure designed in 1978—is not fit for purpose and needs wholesale reform. Demographics are the key, and they are not properly considered under Barnett. By way of example, my constituency of Delyn has a median age of 46 compared with a median age of 40 across the rest of the UK, and 23% of the population are over 65 compared with 18% nationally. These figures may not seem hugely substantial, but they are statistically significant, as they indicate the ageing population in my constituency, which therefore has an increased need for health and social care. The calculation of funding based on headcount, which does not take into account different needs or costs, is flawed, and that should be addressed as a priority.

Devolution is here to stay and is not going away. There are many in north Wales who feel it has never worked: funding coming from Cardiff is just as detached from the north as it was when it came from Westminster, and we have just switched one funding body for another, while adding an extra level of governance and cost in the middle. In many ways, they are right, but let us be very clear: it does not need to be that way. The calls for the abolition of the Senedd are not fair and are unreasonable. Honestly, I used to be one of those who called for its abolition, and then my mind was changed by hon. and right hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Craig Williams), who, sadly, is no longer in his place.

If the Labour party had won the election here in December, nobody would have been calling for the abolition of Parliament just because there was a useless party in charge—nothing of the sort. They would just have campaigned harder next time and highlighted the weaknesses in that Administration, and so it is with us. We need to get over the fact that we do not like it and feel that it is not working, and recognise that it is not that the structure does not work, but that the problem lies with the party in control of the structure.

In closing, I urge my constituents and the wider society across Wales to recognise that these will be the issues next May, and to make sure they install a Welsh Government who are focused on levelling up across the whole country, remembering that a huge amount of Wales exists if they happen to look north of Newport.

[Several hon. Members rose—]