Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Dr James Davies)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) on securing the debate, which has triggered a wide-ranging discussion on Welsh devolution.
As we have heard throughout the debate, devolution in Wales has evolved considerably since the incredibly close referendum in 1997, when I was still in school—quite possibly, my hon. Friend was too. Successive UK Governments have devolved further powers to Cardiff Bay in an attempt to place the settlement on a firmer footing and to put more responsibility and accountability at its heart. That has included providing powers to make primary legislation in devolved areas, and powers to introduce replacements for stamp duty land tax and landfill tax in Wales, as well as the introduction of a new Welsh rate of income tax and powers for Welsh Ministers to borrow to fund capital expenditure.
Nowadays, the devolution settlement is based on the reserved powers model, in line with that in place in Scotland. The devolved Administration have greater powers to manage their own affairs, as well as matters relating to elections, transport and natural resources. There has been a great deal of debate this morning about the future of Welsh devolution and whether the current boundary between devolved and reserved powers is correct. It is clear that different views exist, and we must acknowledge that they are reflected among the people of Wales.
In the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn focused on disappointing policy outcomes with reference to Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, education, transport and so on. He also talked of the north-south divide in Wales, and the sad disengagement with politics—turnout at the last devolved election was just under 47%, compared with 67% at the general election.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) intervened to talk about his desire to see local representation wherever possible, and more positive comments came from the hon. Members for Gordon (Richard Thomson), for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) and for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones). The hon. Member for Llanelli talked about the importance of the accessibility of Ministers at all levels of government, and co-operation too.
I am firmly of the opinion that the overwhelming priority of the people of Wales is not an incessant, one-way transfer of powers down the M4, or a route to more separatism, but delivery on the important matters of the day, such as health, the cost of living and education. Sadly, we continue to see poor levels of interest and awareness of the roles of our various and different levels of Government, and therefore often limited democratic accountability.
In the context of Wales, it is important to remember that 50% of the population of Wales live within 25 miles of the border with England, which does influence how many people view the devolved settlement. Bringing decision making on devolved issues closer to people affected by them is one of the real opportunities of the devolution agenda, but it would be remiss of me, as we reflect on the last 25 years of devolution in Wales, not to acknowledge that there are legitimate concerns among many in Wales about devolution and the direction of travel that has been taken in Cardiff Bay.
All too often, we have seen attempts to centralise decision making within the Welsh Government, which goes against the concept of true devolution. Contrary to some of the arguments that have been made today, it has been particularly pleasing to me to see this Government deliver on our promises of true devolution in the allocation of shared prosperity funding. I have seen that at first hand in Denbighshire, my own county, as a member of the county’s shared prosperity fund partnership group, which allows new and refreshing approaches to local problems and opportunities, driven by local people.
Rob Roberts
The Minister makes a good point. It reminded me of the point the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made about local decision making. About two years ago, the First Minister appeared in front of the Welsh Affairs Committee. I remember asking him whether he was going to devolve more powers to the regions—specifically, to north Wales—as he had previously said that he thought that was a good idea. I asked him when those powers were going to come and what powers they were going to be, as none had materialised. I think the First Minister was a little bit indignant at the question. Does the Minister agree that the current arrangement of devolution is not working, and a potential solution might be to give more autonomy to north Wales to make some decisions for itself?
Dr Davies
My hon. Friend makes a strong argument. In fact, he will be aware that one of the Labour Members in the Senedd called for greater powers and autonomy for north Wales in response to the recent roads review, and today a representative of the business community in north Wales has called for a directly elected mayor for north Wales. It comes back to my point that devolution should be true in nature; it should be led by local people and local representatives, which is not always the case at present.
Under the Welsh Labour Government, the economy in Wales is growing at a slower rate than in the rest of the UK. In education, Wales is, sadly, at the bottom of the PISA rankings compared with other parts of the UK. In the health service, we see abysmal performance and outcomes data, and we also see what I regard as very detrimental policies on road building and tourism. All of that is despite the UK Government providing the Welsh Government with record funding, which is, as we have heard, higher per head of population than in England.
The UK Government have a duty of care towards all British citizens and it is important that UK-wide comparable data is used to justify and learn from different policy approaches across the country. The days of “devolve and forget” have to be over. I am deeply concerned that, despite the challenges the Welsh economy faces and failing devolved public services in Wales, the Welsh Government’s unrelenting focus is often on constitutional matters, including increasing the number of politicians in Cardiff Bay and changing its voting system, which some have suggested would be at a cost of £100 million over five years.
Devolution in Wales means that Wales has two Governments. Both should be fully focused on the issues that really matter: levelling up our economy, creating jobs and supporting people with the cost of living. The UK Government’s investment to address those priorities, through initiatives such as the levelling-up fund and our support with energy costs, highlights the benefits that Wales enjoys from being part of the United Kingdom.
I want to emphasise something that is not always said. A very clear majority in Wales believe in the United Kingdom and are proud to be part of it, and this place—Parliament—will always have a critical role in delivering for Wales and its people. Our approach to devolution is underpinned by our commitment to work collaboratively with the Welsh Government and all the devolved Administrations.
Gerald Jones
On the point about collaboration with the Welsh Government, does the Minister think the way the UK Government clawed back funding from the Welsh Government is unacceptable? My understanding is that issues around switching between revenue and capital have been agreed many times before. The level of underspend is significantly below that of some other UK Departments. Does he agree that was a pretty poor show by the UK Government?
Dr Davies
The hon. Gentleman puts that in an interesting way. The other side of the story is that all who are entrusted with spending public money should do so carefully, and should make efforts to comply with the rules and arrangements around that money. The other way of looking at that is that the Welsh Government failed in their duty to spend wisely the money that was available to them.
Moving on from that, the landmark agreement reached last year between the UK and devolved Governments further strengthens our intergovernmental structures. The new structures provide a firm foundation to deepen our partnership working. Our joint work on city and growth deals in Wales, as well as our announcement last week that we will establish two freeports in Wales, following agreement with the Welsh Government, exemplify our approach to collaboration.
Over the past 25 years, we have seen dramatic changes in the way in which Wales is governed. It is clear that a wide range of views exists over how that might change in future, but I urge all to focus not on the constitutional debate, but on delivering on the real priorities for the people of Wales.