Future of the NHS Debate
Full Debate: Read Full DebateDepartment: Department of Health and Social Care
Rob Roberts
Main Page: Rob Roberts (Independent - Delyn)Department Debates - View all Rob Roberts's debates with the Department of Health and Social Care
(1 year, 2 months ago)
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Liz Twist
I most certainly agree that that is a shocking figure. We need to make sure that we are really addressing all those issues very urgently. Those cancer waits are really important for what happens when undertaking treatment and the possibility of cure, so we really need to get on top of that.
When we look at accident and emergency, which has been much in the news, we see that 11,000 patients died after waiting more than 11 hours in A&E in 2021-22. The Government have just changed the target to 76% of patients waiting less than four hours in A&E by March next year, but we really need to return to the original target. Just changing the figures does not mean that people get better or that fewer people die; it means that the figures have been changed, and people understand that. My constituents know that.
More than 1.5 million people are waiting for key diagnostic tests such as MRIs, which is an increase of 95,500 from this time last year, whereas in May 2010 just 536,262—actually, that still sounds like a big figure—were waiting for key diagnostic tests. We need to get better, not worse, at doing these things.
One in seven people cannot get a GP appointment when they try to do so. All of us know, as constituency MPs, that one of the issues people consistently raise with us is that they are unable to get appointments in a timely fashion, so something that needs seeing to now is perhaps only seen to in a few weeks’ time. That is despite the really heroic efforts by a lot of our GP practices and surgeries, and the staff working in them, to try to make sure that people can get the advice they need when they need it. We know there is a shortage of GPs. Just in my constituency, people talk to me about that regularly. I regularly discuss with the NHS and with the new integrated care boards what is happening in that area, and things are really difficult for us at the moment.
At the same time, there are huge numbers of nursing vacancies in the NHS, with 47,000 posts unfilled, according to the latest figures. Some 40,000 nurses and 20,000 doctors left the NHS in the past year, and only 7,000 of those people retired. Surely, we must agree that patients need care and the NHS needs staff, and that it must be a priority to resolve this situation. That is why I am so pleased to see that Labour has a plan to address those workforce issues, because those workforce issues are at the heart of the difficulties within our NHS. It is not problems with NHS staff or that people are not working hard; they are working hard and, if anything, really becoming burnt out.
Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)
I am delighted to hear that Labour has a plan. Would the hon. Lady please share it with the Health Minister in Wales? If Labour has a plan, it would be really good to have it in Wales, where Labour does not seem to have one at all.
Liz Twist
Well, I thank the hon. Member for that comment, but I will stick to my constituency in the north-east, if he does not mind.
As I was saying, this is not an issue with the staff themselves. The staff are working really hard and really down to the bone, and that is leading to the situation being made worse with people leaving or taking retirement. All of us will have friends and family who work in the NHS—certainly in the north-east, we have a huge number of people working in the NHS—and we see the strain on them, and on their faces, as they try to cope and deal with the issues they see day in and day out, so it is really important to address that.
Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), and I congratulate the hon. Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) on securing a vital debate on a topic on which I believe we could spend hundreds of hours, rather than the few short ones available to us this afternoon. But we take what we’ve got and we make a start.
I had hoped that this would be a serious debate about solutions, but sadly it seems to have descended into the same finger-pointing blame game that we always get. We will come back to that later.
I declare an interest: my fiancé is a research nurse who until recently worked in the NHS but has now gone into private sector research. I told him to watch this afternoon’s debate. He said, as a senior research nurse and someone who worked on the AstraZeneca covid team, “Why? It’ll just be a load of politicians blaming each other and not actually addressing anything.”
Rob Roberts
How right he turned out to be. However, he is watching it, and my phone has not stopped receiving messages such as, “Don’t agree with that intervention from the Opposition”, and, interestingly, “Hancock is making sense!” in respect of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matt Hancock). My fiancé is not by any stretch of the imagination a traditional Conservative voter, but he gets it—he understands.
On 5 July 1948, the NHS was founded under Labour Health Minister Aneurin Bevan, who built on the initial idea in the 1944 White Paper, “A National Health Service”, introduced by Conservative Health Secretary Henry Willink, which set out the need for a free and comprehensive healthcare service. Aneurin Bevan is rightly hailed as the father of the NHS, but it is the Conservative Minister years earlier who can arguably be called its grandfather. And as we are all aware, grandparents always treat the grandchildren a lot better than their parents do.
There are 40 MPs in this place from Wales, the home of Bevan, and 26 of them represent various Opposition parties, but there are zero here today to talk about health services and to defend the record not of the UK Government over the past 13 years—right hon. and hon. Members have taken aim at them this afternoon—but of Labour’s control in Wales over the past 25 years.
In 1948, average life expectancy was about 68 years old; today it is almost 85. That is a 25% increase in lifespan. In 1948, hospitals had a couple of X-ray machines. CT scanners did not come into use until the 1970s, while MRI scanners appeared in 1984. Ultrasound, which was previously an instrument used to detect the flaws in the hulls of industrial ships, was first used for clinical purposes in Glasgow in 1956 due to a collaboration between an obstetrician and an engineer.
A new CT scanner sets us back £1 million to £2 million. An MRI takes up to £3 million, and ultrasounds a few hundred thousand each. Each hospital has multiple numbers of those machines. Drugs and treatment developments cost literally hundreds of billions globally every year. We are keeping people alive longer, diagnosing them with ever more expensive machinery and treating them with ever more expensive medication and devices. In 1948, the population of the UK was just under 50 million. Today it is almost 68 million—an increase of 36%.
My right hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk talked about data earlier. I am no healthcare specialist or expert data scientist, and I do not in any way have all the answers, but I like to think that I have a reasonable amount of common sense, and my common sense tells me that, when 36% more people are living 25% longer and are being diagnosed by expensive machines and treated by a pharmaceutical industry that costs hundreds of billions, we cannot keep running things based on principles devised 75 years ago.
The main point I want to get across in my short contribution is one of openness and debate. I have sat and listened to right hon. and hon. Members in this debate and others over the years talking about various elements of the NHS in England. It is all a Conservative problem, they say. Tories are destroying the NHS, they say.
Rob Roberts
They are saying it now—they cannot help themselves. It is endemic in their thinking, but it does not help. Where is shouting at me getting them? Nowhere at all.
Rob Roberts
I invite them to come to Wales and view the conditions in the north Wales health board, where only 62% of buildings are operationally safe and where the hard-working staff, including friends and family of mine, are working in impossible conditions. In England, one in 20 people—5% of them—have been waiting more than a year on waiting lists. In Wales, the number is one in four—25%. The NHS in Wales performs worse in virtually every measurable area than the English equivalent. Labour Members are not shouting any more—how interesting. Currently, only 51% of red call patients are responded to within the target eight minutes. These are the second longest ambulance wait times ever. Only 23% of amber calls, which include strokes, were reached within 30 minutes.
The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) mentioned dentistry in an intervention. Only 7% of dental practices in Wales are accepting new patients. Where is the outrage? Where are the demands for better? For every one pound spent on healthcare in England, there is almost £1.20 available in Wales—it is not a money problem—but for markedly worse outcomes in all areas. Where is the outrage? Instead, the Leader of the Opposition, in a speech last year in Wales, described the Welsh Government as providing
“a blueprint for what Labour can do across the UK”.
Well, good luck to the rest of the UK if it chooses to install the right hon. and learned Gentleman into Downing Street next year on that basis.
I am not helping the discussion with these statistics at all. I am guilty of the very thing I always tell others not to do—to stop blaming people, stop trying to score silly political points, and stop wasting everybody’s time by saying that different Administrations are to blame. There is no prospect of an open debate on the actual issues—the real, fundamental problems—if all we focus on is finding blame. It is easy, it is lazy and it gets us nowhere.
The NHS across the United Kingdom is in difficulty. It is in difficulty in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It is not in difficulty for political reasons; it cannot be, because there are three very different Administrations running health services in all those parts of the UK, and the same problems occur in all of them. We need to ask why there is so much waste in the NHS and why there are nurses graduating from universities with degrees who—as the RCN agreed with me recently—cannot draw blood or insert a cannula into a vein. It is not their fault; as with everything, it is the systems that let them down—systems that mean that health boards across the UK spend hundreds of millions of pounds sending graduates on courses to learn the clinical skills that they were not taught on their degrees.
I commend the shadow Health Secretary for something he said recently. He said that he would be prepared to use private sector resources to bring down waiting lists faster. He asked the question: “How can I look someone in the eye as a prospective Health Secretary and tell them that I have a way to provide them with a better outcome, but my ideology is standing in the way of their recovery?” He was lambasted for that view from his side of the aisle but, while he and I will disagree about almost everything else, I have to say that my respect for him went up significantly with that intervention.
The NHS health boards across Wales are sending people to private facilities, which is costing hundreds of millions of pounds. I commend them, because it is all about outcomes. We get so caught up on process and procedure—on who does what, when—that we lose sight of the outcomes for people. One of my most hated phrases in politics is “political football”. It is used almost exclusively in discussions about the NHS, but the bottom line is that things such as the health service have to be run by political decisions; otherwise, who could be held accountable to the public? If we take decisions out of the hands of politicians, who should make them and how can they be held to account?
Florence Eshalomi
I thank the hon. Member for making—a speech. He says that this is a political issue. Does he agree, then, that his Government have failed politically by not getting around the table sooner to avert some of the strikes that we have seen up and down the country?
Rob Roberts
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. How easy would it have been to go out into the media and say, “We’re asking for a 20% pay increase, by the way” —which is what happened—and then to blame the Government for not coming to the table? When the Government are called to the table on such ludicrous terms—from my point of view; everyone will have their own opinion—why should they engage? Timing is everything; they are now getting around the table and are now doing it. To answer the hon. Lady, she has condemned the Government for not doing it sooner, so I am sure she will now praise the Government for taking the time to do it.
The same strikes have been announced in Wales, but what happened there? Would the hon. Lady also condemn the Welsh Government for not getting around the table and not negotiating in the right way? [Interruption.] It never happens, or it is very rare. It is easy for the Opposition to play the blame game. Where has it got them?
Kate Osborne
I fail to see how the hon. Member does not understand that these points are political. For 13 years, a Conservative Government have underfunded the NHS, which has led to over 7 million people on waiting lists and tens of thousands of vacancies. As for the trade unions, yes, the Government are now talking to the RCN, but when are they going talk to Unite, GMB and the other trade unions that represent NHS workers?
Rob Roberts
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but I am so exasperated by this. We hear from the Opposition all the time that the NHS was properly funded by Labour in 2010, but as the King’s Fund and many others will tell us, NHS funding has increased in real terms since 2010.
Rob Roberts
It has—although if Opposition Members want to argue with the King’s Fund, that is fine. But if NHS funding was okay under Labour and has increased in real terms since then, how is it not okay now? I agree that it is not okay now, but that is because of all the reasons I have already mentioned: we are keeping people alive longer, and sicker, there are more of them, and it is more expensive to diagnose and treat them. They are not political issues.
To draw my remarks to a conclusion, I am not familiar with the machinations of how to go about these things, but it seems perfectly reasonable to have, finally, some kind of royal commission—some kind of massive public engagement exercise—on the future of health services in the United Kingdom. We must tackle it head-on. We must not be afraid to go wherever that debate takes us in search of better outcomes for people. I just wish we would keep in mind that we are here for people. We are here to serve them and give them the best outcomes we possibly can, not to get caught up in form and process, or dogma and ideology. We are trying to make people better. We have to do whatever we can to get to the root causes of the issue, because as my former NHS and now private sector nurse partner tells me all the time—I quote—“You could fix so much if you’d just stop politics getting in the bloody way.”
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. I call Paulette Hamilton.
Mrs Paulette Hamilton (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) on securing this debate.
I worked in the NHS as a nurse for 25 years. I know at first hand how soul destroying it can be to work long hours with inadequate staffing and funding. I am also a mom, a sister, a wife and a grandmother. I know how worrying it can be when someone is ill and how helpless long waiting times can make families feel. I have also experienced that at first hand with the NHS in the last year. That worry is felt right at the heart of our communities, time and again. My constituents tell me they cannot get a GP appointment. In Erdington, Kingstanding and Castle Vale, and across the country, every morning at 8 am, thousands of people call their local GP surgery to get an appointment. One of my constituents rang up her local practice to get an appointment and was fifth in the queue. By the time she got to the front, there were no appointments left. She told me, “If you ring at one minute past eight, you’ll be on the phone for at least 40 minutes. You won’t get an appointment, because they’ve already gone.”
That is not a unique example. If one of my constituents cannot wait to see a GP and calls an ambulance because they think a loved one has had a heart attack or stroke, they can expect to wait 27 agonising minutes. In December, many waited for over an hour. In November, my husband had a stroke. The ambulance never came. In January, across the UK, more than 40,000 people waited over 12 hours for treatment once they had managed to get to an A&E department.
With healthcare staff reporting stress, poor mental health and that they are still living with the effects of the covid-19 pandemic, it is no wonder that 40,000 nurses and 20,000 doctors left their jobs last year. Only 7,000 actually retired from their profession, so where did the other 53,000 go?
Let us be very clear: the NHS is on its knees. People in my community and across the UK are tired of empty promises from the Government when they know things are not improving. They know as well as I do that the NHS deserves better. People want to be heard. They want to feel like the people responsible for the services are listening to what they are saying and not just leaving the room. From GP practices in Erdington to hospitals and social care settings across the country, one thing is clear: only a Labour Government can fix this mess.
Rob Roberts
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I apologise to the House for interrupting the debate. At the end of my speech, I may have used a little bit of intemperate language, which was not necessarily in best keeping with the traditions of the House. I apologise to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his apology. As he said, it is important that we use moderation in our language.
Sir Christopher Chope
In fairness to the Government, they say that they are now looking at it—a bit late in the day, I think; a review should have been instituted much earlier—but the hon. Gentleman is right. It is ridiculous to have a structure in NHS dentistry in which the rewards are linked to the number of specific procedures that have been carried out. Each procedure is given a different rating, and then they are all added up to establish whether the total exceeds the permitted 110% capacity. That is another case of there being plenty of scope for reform and fresh thinking, but it seems to be almost a culture in the NHS not to be receptive to such ideas.
Rob Roberts
May I take up my hon. Friend’s point about dentists not taking on more work? The same applies to NHS doctors, who are subject to punitive measures involving their pension schemes. If they take on extra work or responsibilities, they receive huge pension bills—tens of thousands of pounds a year. Does my hon. Friend agree that a simple way of fixing a very simple problem would be to get rid of the annual allowance tax charge on the NHS defined-benefit scheme so that doctors could take on more work and reduce the waiting lists?
Sir Christopher Chope
I do agree with that. I have raised this subject in parliamentary questions, and what have I had in return? Complacency and inactivity, and generalisations such as, “We realise that there is a problem and we must try to do something about it.” As a matter of fact, I do not think that this problem is confined to doctors; I think there is a much bigger problem relating to pensions, but that is a subject for another day.
Then there is the issue of productivity—or rather the lack of productivity—in the NHS. As we have heard, although the number of staff is increasing, output is not going up; in fact, it is falling. The Government again seem to be refusing to face up to these problems. Last April, NHS England carried out an internal review of productivity issues, which was referred to by the National Audit Office in its report on the subject in November. I submitted a parliamentary question asking for the NHS England report to be published, and I had to wait weeks for an answer. On 22 December, I was informed by the Minister for Health and Secondary Care, the hon. Member for Colchester (Will Quince), that the publication of information about NHS England productivity available to the National Audit Office
“could prejudice the conduct of public affairs.”
I was amazed to receive such an answer, because surely we are the public. We are speaking on behalf of the public. Why and how could withholding from us an internal review carried out by NHS England be prejudicial to the conduct of public affairs, and how could it be prejudicial if it had already been seen by the National Audit Office?
I tabled another parliamentary question on 9 January, asking in what way the publication would prejudice the conduct of public affairs. One might have assumed that there would be a quick answer to that, because the Department must have thought about it when the first answer was approved by a Minister, but I had to wait until 20 February. In other words, I had to wait for about six weeks, until more than a month after the question should have been answered. The Minister replied:
“This report”—
the internal NHS England report—
“is currently being used by National Audit office and NHS England to inform internal policy for public services. To share this information would inhibit the open, free and frank discussions that are being had on these internal policies.”
I think that those “internal policies” should now be discussed openly in this Chamber. My message to the Government is that they need to get their act together in a way that they have not done hitherto, and address these serious issues.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I want to get back to some statistics; I am sorry if I am going to bore the House, but I want to get back to some of the harsh reality. I know that subjective judgments have been made, but we cannot get away from some of the stats. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) on securing the debate and on an excellent speech, particularly in light of the fact that it was the Durham miners’ gala fundraising dinner last night.
I come back to the some of the harsh stats because I want to deal with why we need to address the funding crisis more effectively than we are at the moment. Some of these stats have been used already but I am still shocked by this: we have 7.1 million patients on waiting lists, which is almost double the level in 2010; and the average ambulance response time for patients in category 2 is now 48 minutes, which is half an hour more than it was a short while back, with the target of 18 minutes. I have met our local ambulance drivers and paramedics, and I know that category 2 is the heart attacks and strokes. I had a heart attack about 10 years ago and I do not want to be waiting for 45 minutes, as we are talking about the difference between life and death for some of us.
On A&E waiting times, the NHS target is 95% of people being seen within four hours, but the current level is 40%. Most Members will have visited the A&E departments in their local hospitals. One of our local people described them as being like a warzone at times, given the number of injuries and scale of suffering. Members have mentioned the public satisfaction issue, but on the GP front—again, this comes just from working with local doctors—1 million people are waiting for more than a month. There are currently 4,500 fewer GPs than there were a decade ago. I understand what the Government and ex-Ministers are saying about the recruitment of more GPs, and I understand what my hon. Friends have said about a lot of that investment being from some time when the Conservative party was not in government.
I have been trying to look at the repairs backlog as well, because we have been promised a new hospital at Hillingdon. I am really pleased about that because I have been campaigning for one for years. We will be getting a new hospital, eventually, but that is largely because our existing one is in such a dangerous state; we are worried about the main structure collapsing at any stage and we have had to do temporary repairs. The repairs backlog has grown by 11%, to £10.2 billion-worth of backlog.
There is another figure that I have been worried about. Let me make it clear that I have been on the picket lines with nurses and in the campaigns. When talking to them on the picket lines, we get the true reality of what people are having to deal with, but I wanted to get behind the anecdotes and get to the stats. They show that one in five NHS trusts and health boards is providing food banks for staff, with a further third looking to provide them in the future. It must surely be shocking to everyone that NHS staff are having to rely on food banks —these are professionals.
If we look at the underlying causes of that, we see that this is about pay. I looked at the pay of the paramedics I was talking to and I found that it has gone down by £2,400 in real terms in the past year—that comes from some TUC analysis. There are now 3,000 ambulance staff vacancies in England. I went on to look at issues associated with nurses’ pay. The average nurse’s take-home pay is more than £5,000 less in real terms than it was in 2010—again, that comes from number crunching by the TUC, but all of this is verified elsewhere as well. There are nurse shortages, with 47,000 vacancies. The most worrying thing, which has been touched on to a certain extent by others, is that one in nine nurses left the profession in the past year, which is the highest level in a year in the recorded history of the NHS. That says something about morale. We have heard that the talks are scheduled for 1 and 3 March, and I am hoping that they will resolve the current dispute. However, it is difficult to see how it can be resolved unless all the unions are engaged in those discussions.
A few years ago, there was a junior doctors pay dispute. My right hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and I were on the picket lines and at the demonstrations for that as well. So I was looking at what has happened with the junior doctors, who are represented by the BMA. As someone has said, 98% have voted for strike action, on a turnout of 77%. I do not think we have seen those levels of turnout in recent history in these ballots for industrial action. Again, I have been trying to get behind the reason for that. BMA analysis shows that the pay of junior doctors has been cut by more than a quarter since 2008. It looks as though we are going to have a walkout for 72 hours in March, which, obviously, will have an impact on the service. When I talk to junior doctors, they tell me that they do not know what else they can do. They are beginning to struggle to survive on the wages they are getting. In constituencies such as mine, a west London, working-class, multicultural community, most of them will never be able to get onto the housing ladder to buy a property; in fact, because of the level of rents, many will struggle even to fund the rents there. Trying to come at this question as objectively as possible, it must come back to underfunding. There is no other reason that I can see.
Rob Roberts
I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman giving way and the tone in which he approaches the debate. He talks about funding, but Labour left office in 2010 and there was no argument about the fact that funding was not sufficient at the time of the last Labour Government. The King’s Fund says that statistics show that funding has increased or at least kept pace in real terms since then, so how is it not sufficient now?
John McDonnell
That is an extremely valid point that must be addressed. When some of us were doing health economics in the 1980s and onwards, we were always told that the level of funding required just to maintain a standstill operation for the growing ageing population was at least 4%. What happened under Labour was a 6% annual rate of funding.
I will be honest with the hon. Gentleman: when I was on the Government Benches and Labour was in government, I was asking for more. Gordon Brown, to give him his due, had a sense of humour; I always used to produce an alternative Budget, so he described me as the shadow Chancellor even when I was not. I did that on the basis that I thought 4% was not enough and, while 6% was right, we needed to go further, because it was about not just the ageing population but the increased levels of morbidity we were experiencing. In addition, as the hon. Gentleman mentions, new treatments come on board and are more expensive.
Even though I was looking for increased investment, beyond what Labour was doing then, Labour was not just keeping pace with the 4%, but was going beyond it at 6%. To be frank, although the hon. Gentleman swore in the Chamber earlier, he should have heard some of the language I used in 2010, because I was quite angry as well. Those of us who were there will remember that in 2010, investment dropped to 1%. We were saying to George Osborne, who was the Chancellor at the time, “You are going to reap the whirlwind here for dropping the level down to 1%, because it means an erosion of the services that are provided.”
In addition, that investment did not recognise our ageing population or the other emerging issues with morbidity. I understand that the covid inquiry will include analysis of the resilience of the health service to cope with the covid pandemic. I believe that a number of those representatives are seeking to have George Osborne appear before that inquiry, because he bears responsibility for that under-investment.
Other hon. Friends have mentioned mental health, and I agree that it has been the Cinderella service. When I looked at mental health funding, I found that it has increased at a faster rate than overall NHS funding—at times nearly 3% as against 1%. However, that follows years of small increases or real-terms funding cuts, and the number of NHS mental health beds is down by 25% since 2010.
Curiously enough, I was on a bus in my constituency yesterday with a former mental health nurse, who described to me the implications of that and the consequences for the individuals concerned. Community mental health nurse numbers were also impacted upon. Some of us will have dealt with the results of that in our constituencies; in my constituency, I have to say, it has meant dealing with suicides as well.
John McDonnell
That’s right.
The social care figures are startling. Some 1.5 million people aged 65 and over have some form of unmet care need. There are 165,000 vacancies in the social care sector across England and Wales—a 52% increase in the last year. The Health Foundation estimates that an extra £6.1 billion to £14.4 billion will be required by 2030-31 to meet the demand. As others have said, that has meant delayed discharges from the NHS, and—as I mentioned on Tuesday—it places a huge burden on unpaid carers, who are living on the pittance of the £70-a-week carer’s allowance.
The Institute for Government published a report today in which it basically argues for social care overhaul. It describes how social care has been overwhelmed in recent years and states that 50,000 fewer posts are filled than a year ago—the highest vacancy rate ever in social care. Then, there are the stats on what has happened as a result of under-funding—and I am afraid that it is because of under-funding; we cannot get away from that fact. I would be saying the same thing on these statistics no matter which party was in power. We need to go further in the coming month’s Budget.
Rob Roberts
The right hon. Gentleman is being very generous with his time. He will know, having been shadow Chancellor, that in the devolved Administrations, there is £1.20 in Wales for every £1 in England, and slightly more in Scotland. The results—I could say they are worse, but I will not—are measurably the same. Is it a problem only of funding, or is it one of structure?
John McDonnell
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has made that point before. I looked at the Nuffield Foundation report on Wales a couple of years back. I do not think that Wales has had a good deal out of the Barnett formula over the years, and although the Government have addressed some of that over the past year, they have not done enough. The Nuffield Foundation said that Wales has not only an ageing population, but higher levels of morbidity, so the funding does not match the need. A whole debate needs to take place about moving forward. When I was shadow Chancellor, I talked about a review of the Barnett formula. That frightened a number of people, but it is needed. In fact, I think there is a need for a Barnett formula for the north of England as well. [Hon. Members: “ Hear, hear!”] I thought that might raise a response.
There is a long-term funding crisis that we have to address. I look forward to next month’s Budget for some resolution of this matter. Where can the money come from? I know that a lot of people say we should never make unfunded commitments. To be honest, I was the first shadow Chancellor who produced a Budget and a manifesto that was fully funded and costed, in the “Grey Book”, so I want to look at some ideas and just throw them out there.
On Tuesday, we heard that, as a result of the higher level of tax receipts received than the Office for Budget Responsibility predicted, the Chancellor now has £30 billion of headroom that he did not have previously. Some of that £30 billion needs to be invested in the NHS, and particularly social care. I would also like to see some of that money invested in relieving poverty, which is one of the major causes of ill health in this society.
We need to do something on capital gains tax. If we taxed capital gains at the same rate as earned income and charged national insurance on it, we would get £25 billion extra. Let me throw in a few others. If we lifted the higher national insurance rate, so that instead of 3.25% above £50,000, it was paid at what everyone else below that level pays—13%—that could raise us £15 billion. I cannot for the life of me see why dividends are not taxed at the same level as earned income. If we did that, we could raise £8 billion. Those on the Labour Front Bench have put forward the idea of scrapping non-dom status. Again, I claim copyright on that one. That would raise between £1 billion and £3 billion.
The Government have implemented a windfall tax on the excess profits of energy companies, and they should extend that, as those on the Labour Front Bench have advocated. Some Members may have read the recent reports on bank profits and the return of extremely excessive bank bonuses. There is an argument for a windfall tax on bank profits during this extremely difficult period. This is a time when we should all bear the burden of the challenges that we face. Taxing the bankers’ bonuses needs to come back on the agenda, and I deeply regret that the Government removed the cap on bankers’ bonuses, which we supported.
With regard to the City, I have been an advocate of the financial transaction tax for a number of years. All it does is close some of the loopholes in terms of stamp duty. If we look at the work on this recently by Advani and others, we see the potential. With limited changes, we could raise £8 billion to £10 billion.
It is time to start looking at how we tax wealth in this country more effectively. If we look at the proposals that have been produced by various think-tanks over the last year or so, a 1% tax on people who have assets over £10 million could raise an additional £10 billion. This is not revolutionary stuff. It is straightforward and pragmatic, making sure that we have a fair taxation system.
Those on the Labour Front Bench have argued strongly that we have to go for growth, as have the Government. I fully agree, but that needs a rapid programme of investment in the public sector, with matching private sector investment. If we can increase growth by just 1%, we usually match Governments receipts at the same time by 1%, which would mean about £7.7 billion, and for 2% it would mean £15.4 billion. In addition to the short-term taxation measures, redressing the imbalances in our taxation system at the moment, that would enable us to achieve the growth that will give us a stable form of income to meet the needs of our NHS and social care system.
We cannot continue with an NHS and a social care service that is paid for on the backs of people we are exploiting in long hours, undermining their morale by not paying them properly, and at the same time making them face challenges that are both heartrending and certainly not what many of them signed up for. The NHS workers I have met just want to provide a decent service in a caring environment that is fully funded, where their profession is respected by being properly paid. I hope that we can achieve that sooner, rather than later.
Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) on securing this important debate. It really is a privilege to speak after so many powerful and passionate contributions.
I want to start by telling the House about my constituent Mo Peberdy and her father, who is 83 years old. He has stage 5 kidney failure, diabetes—which has already led to a serious foot infection and the loss of one toe—and early-onset dementia. He is on a raft of medications and he has carers coming in four times a day.
On the weekend of 10 and 11 December, Mo’s father started to go downhill. By the 15th, he was in crisis. He had hugely swollen testicles and terrible sores all over his groin and backside. He could not eat or drink, let alone sit down, and he had severe diarrhoea, which was green and contained blood.
Mo immediately called the GP. She was told that no one was available and that she needed to ring out of hours. She did. When they called back several hours later, she was told to call 111. Mo called 111. Again, she waited several hours for them to ring back. When someone eventually did, at 6 pm, they said her call had been transferred to 999, so Mo and her father were told they had to wait for an ambulance—and wait, and wait, and wait. It was not until 8 am the next day—14 hours later—that a paramedic finally arrived.
All that evening, night and morning, Mo tells me,
“my dad was screaming in agony, wanting, begging to die… to listen to him in such pain, I will never forget it in all my life… My dad is one case amongst many… Our NHS is broken… We have to change from the top.”
She is right.
Time and again in this debate, we have heard about the crisis in our health and care system after 13 long years of this Conservative Government. More than 7 million people are now waiting for hospital treatment, after Labour ended waiting in the NHS. In the last month alone, 42,700 people waited more than 12 hours in A&E, and people who needed category 2 ambulance responses for suspected heart attacks and strokes waited one hour and 33 minutes on average. The target is 18 minutes.
The Royal College of Emergency Medicine estimates that up to 500 more people are dying every week due to delays in emergency care. I hope that the Minister will say what the Government are doing to investigate that and put it right, because it is a national scandal. The target that patients with suspected cancer should not have to wait longer than two months from GP referral to treatment has not been met since 2015.
As many colleagues have said, the situation in social care is even worse, with 1.5 million older people who need help with the very basics of daily living—getting up, washed, dressed and fed—not getting any help at all. Even among those who are in the system, half a million are waiting to have their care needs assessed or reviewed, or for treatment to start. Some 2.5 million unpaid family carers have been forced to give up work because they cannot get the help they need to look after their loved ones. With staff shortages in so many parts of the economy, where on earth is the sense in that? That basic issue—staff shortages—is at the heart of so many of these problems. There are 133,000 vacancies in the NHS and 165,000 in social care; the combined total is the same as the population of Newcastle. What a damning indictment of this Government.
Nobody denies that the covid pandemic and its aftermath have posed huge challenges to the NHS and social care, and I pay tribute to the frontline workers who gave us their all and got us through those dark days, but the reality is that NHS waiting times were at record levels, staff shortages were soaring and social care was stretched to breaking point long before the pandemic struck—something the Government refuse to acknowledge.
This dire situation makes the Government’s refusal to deal properly with the current industrial action in the NHS even more unforgivable.
I am pleased that Ministers are finally talking to the Royal College of Nursing about pay, but why did they not do that before Christmas, when the RCN first told the Government that it would call off the strikes if Ministers just got round the table for meaningful talks on pay? Why are they not also meeting the other unions and the junior doctors? Since the RCN first made its offer, 140,000 operations or hospital appointments have been cancelled as a result of the strikes. Those cancellations could have been prevented if Ministers had done their job and got round the table.
My constituents, and people throughout the country, deserve a Government who get on with the job, and they need a proper plan to get our NHS and care system back on track. That is why I am proud that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has announced today that building an NHS fit for the future is one of Labour’s five key missions for government.
Rob Roberts
If Labour Members have this plan, have they communicated it to the Welsh Health Minister? Why is this not happening in Wales? With the greatest respect, and I really do not want to score these political points—
Rob Roberts
It is not a political matter! These issues affect the entire United Kingdom. Does the hon. Lady agree that that is the case? Does she agree that these matters are just the same in Wales as they are here, and that we need much wider reform?
Liz Kendall
May I gently say to the hon. Gentleman that I know what is best for his constituents and the people of Wales, which is a Labour Government in Westminster as well as a Labour Government in Wales delivering the changes that we are seeing? If he looks at Labour’s record when we were in government in Westminster, he will see the improvements that were made. May I also gently suggest that he focus on the lack of a workforce plan and the lack of a proper social care plan from his own Government, rather than trying to make these petty points?
Our plan will reform health and care services to speed up treatment by harnessing life sciences and technology to reduce preventable illness, and by cutting health inequalities. As a first step, we will carry out the biggest expansion of the workforce in the history of the NHS, doubling the number of medical school places, creating 10,000 more nursing and midwifery training places, recruiting 5,000 more health visitors, and doubling the number of district nurses. We will pay for this by scrapping the non-dom tax status, because we believe that people who come to live in the UK should pay their fair share of tax here. We read today in The Times that the NHS itself backs Labour’s plan, so why do the Government not back it?