Victims and Prisoners Bill (Fourth sitting)

Rob Butler Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 22nd June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Maria Eagle]

Thank you.

[Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)]

Q Thank you for coming today and sharing your experiences. I know how painful that will have been. I was at the University of Sheffield at the time of the Hillsborough disaster and one of my friends also died in that tragedy. I recognise very much from what you are saying the experience that other friends and families had at that time. I pay huge tribute to you for the massive amount of work that you have done to try to make sure there is justice for the families and friends of those who were bereaved. Thank you for everything you have done.

Jenni Hicks: Thank you, but it was not just me. It was me and the rest of the families, and the whole city of Liverpool, which suffered a huge injustice that day.

[Rob Butler]

Q What sort of person do you think the independent public advocate should be to avoid that injustice being repeated? Is there a type of person you have in mind? For example, should it be a lawyer or a different type of person who has had different types of experience, so that you and people in the future would get the support they really needed?

Jenni Hicks: I actually think this is the point in having an independent advocates panel. I think we need to have experts on that panel, as the Hillsborough Independent Panel did, such as an archivist and a researcher—perhaps even a historian, certainly a trauma expert and perhaps even a forensic pathologist. We were given incorrect evidence about the pathology and everything, so you need people who are experts in their field, in my opinion, as part of the independent panel.

[Rob Butler]

Q So you welcome the idea of having a panel of people with different skills and different experiences, so that everybody is able to contribute together.

Jenni Hicks: Yes, I think that is really important. I have some bullet points here, and that is what I have got down here—even a lawyer who knows, but certainly people with the skills needed.

[Rob Butler]

Q Do you think there is also a role for the families of those who were bereaved at Hillsborough in helping to shape the more precise definition of what the independent public advocate should do and the way they do it, because tragically you have a unique experience?

Jenni Hicks: That is a huge question. I think that as long as the Hillsborough families were happy, it would work. Yes, they are going to support families, but there also has to be an independence when you are looking for the truth, from both sides; that is how it worked with the Hillsborough independent panel. As long as the families felt that the advocate and the teams were independent and there was not anybody on the panel they particularly had an objection to, I think it would work.

[Rob Butler]

Q Ms Eagle asked you how you think an independent public advocate would have helped you and the other families who were bereaved at Hillsborough. You talked a little bit about getting access to the papers that were involved.

Jenni Hicks: Yes. Transparency is so, so important.

[Rob Butler]

Q Could you say a little about what you felt you really needed at the time, in those early days and those early years, and where an independent public advocate might have helped you and could potentially help others in future?

Jenni Hicks: If we had had the transparency, it would have prevented having to wait 23 years for the truth. They could also have pointed us in the right direction and they could perhaps have helped with people who needed support in other ways—counselling, perhaps, or whatever support they needed. That is why you have experts on the team who could help with the various issues that come up. But for me the most important part is to have the transparency.

As Hillsborough families we did not have a level playing field of funding, either. As Maria rightly said, when we went into the first inquest in 1990, we had a junior barrister who the families had all clubbed up to pay for: I think we all paid £3,500 each, 40-odd of the families, but all we could afford was a junior barrister. He was up against 12 top QCs with all their teams of lawyers. You can imagine.

We had this junior barrister and he did very well, considering. He ended up having to speak about every fan—not just the people who died, but everything that had happened with Liverpool supporters. He had a huge, huge job on his hands. We were told by the QC that we could either have him, the Rolls-Royce, or have the clapped-out Mini, which was the junior. That was Tim King, who we had. He did his best, but there certainly was not a level playing field of funding for families. As Maria quite rightly said, too, it did become very adversarial, considering it was an inquest.

[Rob Butler]

You have made those points incredibly powerfully. Thank you.

[Sarah Champion]

Two quick questions from me. First of all, can I just say thank you so much for coming and sharing your experiences? I am so deeply sorry for what you and so many others have gone through.

Jenni Hicks: Thank you for having me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Janet Daby]

Q How do you think those delays could be avoided? Would you see the independent public advocate sitting under the Secretary of State or in a different body completely?

Sophie Cartwright: If there is a commitment that there needs to be an IPA, and if there is to be such a person or individual, then in my view it should be a function that is in place and appointed, with someone already in post, whether or not it is full time. It is envisaged that part of the role of the IPA, if they are individually appointed, is that they have a report-writing function and capture the views of victims. That necessarily allows the work of an IPA to be taken more slowly, in order to capture the victims’ experience and to learn lessons from major incidents that can bring about lasting and meaningful change.

I know that as part of this process you are speaking to a number of victims of major incidents. I think every victim and family experience will capture learning or things that could be done to make the process better for them. There is a lot that victims of major incidents have said about the intrusion of the press, and about not knowing where they need to go. If the IPA’s role is full time, that can allow them, when they are not dealing with the quick-time, immediate aftermath of these devastating major incidents, to be putting in place the system for capturing the victim experience, to feed into report-writing, and to ensure that there are recommendations and that lasting change occurs in respect of how to make the victim experience better and the structure and systems that are in place.

[Rob Butler]

Q Thank you for talking to us this afternoon. You said that there are almost different ways that the function of the IPA could be conducted and you have highlighted that it is not a legal role.

Sophie Cartwright: Yes.

[Rob Butler]

I am not sure whether you heard the evidence from previous witnesses, but Jenni Hicks of the Hillsborough campaign in particular was talking about a panel of support, with people who have different skills and different experiences. What do you think are the roles that are most important to the function of a successful IPA?

Sophie Cartwright: Certainly the IPA should have a trauma focus. Plainly, there should be a knowledge and experience that involves an understanding of the impact of trauma, so almost supporting from a resilience point of view with accessing necessary support through psychological services. In our experience of the Manchester Arena, we were absolutely blessed with the work of the resilience hub, which had a team of psychotherapists and psychologists who were providing that trauma focus. Essentially, the work of that body should not make things worse and should have a trauma focus to it.

I would definitely say that if there is to be a panel, it needs to be people with the right skillset, so that in their dealings with victims and obviously with victims’ families, they are not making things worse. They would definitely need a background that involves a psychological, therapy-type role, so they have that understanding. Also, if there is to be that practical support, it has to have the necessary skillset.

Clause 28 also envisages that IPAs will be asked to be properly interested persons at inquests. There needs to be clarity as to the purpose of the IPA, because that certainly suggests that there will be a form of providing advice. In terms of functions, clause 27 also talks about assisting with investigations by public authorities and assistance with the inquest and inquiry. Those are very much almost legal roles. The IPA should not in any way be a substitute for the access of families and victims to their own independent legal advice and representation.

[Rob Butler]

Q Are you not arguing, essentially, that there does need to be a panel of people with a range of skills? To come back a little bit on your criticism—if I can put it that way—of the possibility of delay, is it not the case that each individual situation will need specific qualities and the specific skills of individual people? It is inevitable that it will need a little bit of time to find the right people to deal with the right incident. None the less, if we know of a pool of suitably qualified and experienced people who are ready to serve, that would be ideal.

Sophie Cartwright: Part of the function of the IPA is said to be a signposting role, but if it is not in place in the immediate aftermath and then there is this delay in putting it in place, I cannot quite see what the function is, if it is not to replace the role of legal representation, which it is not intended to do.

If it is not in place to deal with the immediate aftermath, for support and signposting, I do not see what its functions really are in terms of challenging public authorities, unless it is going to be a role that is linked to the changes on the duty of candour, which is being massively championed on the back of the work of Bishop James Jones, and that sort of role for challenging public authorities.

It is about clarity on what the function of the IPA is intended to be. At the moment, I do not see, practically, as the role is envisaged through the Bill, that it is going to be meaningful or what the IPA is intended to achieve by way of support and signposting for victims of major incidents, if it is not in place and ready to go. That is the concern, particularly when under clause 25 there have to be terms of appointments and then agreement, which is inevitably going to have delays. To what extent, then, is it really discharging what was intended to be its signposting and supportive role, if it is not there at the get-go of a major incident?

[Maria Eagle]

Q I do not know whether you managed to hear Lord Michael Wills’s evidence from earlier today. He had a private Member’s Bill in the House of Lords in 2014 to introduce an IPA. He envisaged it, in part, as something that the families could call upon so that they felt that they had agency and there was something they could do at the early stages that would stop them just feeling like everything was being done to them and they had no role. But he also envisaged a role of ensuring transparency. For example, he envisaged his version being able to establish a Hillsborough Independent Panel-like arrangement, to gather in documents and give an account of the truth of what happened. Do you see that that might be a function that the independent public advocate could usefully pursue, if the Bill were amended to enable it?

Sophie Cartwright: Yes, that certainly seems to me to be a measurable and proportionate role for an IPA. It should be something that exists so that, when incidents happen, families know that the body exists and know where to go, rather than thinking, “Who is the IPA? Who has been appointed, and who will it be?” and the experience being dependent on who that IPA is.

If it is a body that exists, where families know that they can go as part of that search for the truth or to seek advice, I absolutely see that as more what was intended when the IPA was initially proposed. Certainly, the genesis of the IPA was very much the experience of Hillsborough. There has been a lot of discussion around it having a role holding core public authorities to account. I do not necessarily know how practically that would work when there is an inquest and a coroner is discharging their investigatory duty or—if there were to be an inquiry—how a chairman would discharge their role as the chairman. There has to be some thought around that to ensure that it does not trespass within the investigatory roles and the statutory functions of other investigators post major incidents.

The original concern was that public authorities had not shown candour in their approach to investigations, so that may be a function of the IPA. Certainly, when the IPA role was first announced in March by Mr Raab, a lot of the support seemed to be around saying, “This should be a role for the IPA around Hillsborough’s duty of candour.” I really cannot comment more broadly on that, but that was what was intended originally when the IPA was first proposed, which would fit with the evidence that you heard this morning. I apologise that I have not had access to that evidence in advance of speaking to you today.