Co-operatives, Mutuals and Friendly Societies Bill (First sitting)

Richard Graham Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th November 2022 Public Bill Committees

[Sir Mark Hendrick]

I thank the hon. Member for his contribution and for the part he played in my getting this far with the Bill. I hope the Minister will indicate what moves are afoot and what progress will be made in that direction.

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

The Bill is hugely supported by everyone present, but will the hon. Member clarify his proposed amendment to line 3 of the title to reflect the fact that the Bill aims

“to permit the capital surplus of mutual entities to be non-distributable”?

I understand exactly what he means about potential creditors moving those assets into a different structure—he mentioned the LV= situation—but what happens when a mutual, for whatever reason, sadly fails? At that stage, does the Bill allow for any remaining capital to be distributed to the members of that mutual?

[Sir Mark Hendrick]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. A lot depends on how it is framed at the start when the mutual or co-operative decides to register. Remember that this is an opt-in; therefore, any conditions upon the dissolution of the company will depend very much on its registration and constitution. Those would allow for this, if the organisation were so set up. I am sure that the Minister will comment on that as well.

Returning to the previous intervention, I hope the Minister will give some assurances, because there are obviously none in the Bill. I hope that moving in the direction of the Law Commission setting up a review of the sector and of the two pieces of legislation he wrote to me about that need review will bring the rules and legislation on co-operatives, mutuals, associations and friendly societies up to date with what is seen as best practice across Europe. Italy, France, Spain and Germany are far more advanced in how they help the sector, in terms of both taxation and the way in which organisations are viewed and are able to expand.

[Sir Mark Hendrick]

I concur totally with my hon. Friend.

Let me close by thanking you, Mr Mundell, and by thanking my colleagues for their contributions and for being present to support the Bill. I also thank everyone who has worked so hard to make it a success, including Peter Hunt and Mutuo, the Co-operative party, the co-operative sector, and the Minister and his Treasury officials. Only by working in a modern and supportive business environment will co-operatives, mutuals and friendly societies be able to make a full contribution to the prosperity of our country by serving the interests of customers, and, indeed, citizens.

[Richard Graham]

I should mention that I once worked for a mutual group and with co-ops, mutuals and friendly societies, Mr Mundell. That is, if you like, a declaration of historic interest.

Today’s Bill is indicative of the huge support for the sector from the hon. Member for Preston. He highlights the fact that co-ops, mutuals and friendly societies can still, and do, play a key role in modern finance. I congratulate him and successive Treasury Ministers on their partnership in bringing the Bill forward. In fact, everyone here is so supportive of the sector that we probably all qualify for the support of the Co-operative party—a recruitment opportunity that I hope it is alert to.

[Gareth Thomas]

Come over and join us.

[Richard Graham]

Thank you.

On the substance of today’s amendments, will the Minister clarify the point I raised in my earlier intervention, about whether the constitutions of the different categories of existing mutuals allow for the distribution of any remaining capital to members where that mutual—and, by application, its members—has decided for whatever reason to wind up?

Will the Minister also clarify that mutuals can use some element of capital, if they wish, for the purposes of merging to create more scalability? As we know, the challenge for mutuals is to raise capital—that has been part of the weaknesses of one or two of the co-ops over the past decade—and, should they no longer be able to go forward, it is important that members do not necessarily lose everything they have put in.

[Gareth Thomas]

Is there not a risk that what the hon. Member is advocating would actually drive a coach and horses through the purpose of the Bill, which is to stop demutualisation and the distribution of assets to members? Any demutualisation is usually driven by the directors, who will benefit enormously from it. What the hon. Member appears to be suggesting risks creating a loophole that actually protects members in terms of demutualisation going forward. Has he not considered that possibility?

[Richard Graham]

Sure, but what I am trying to ensure is that that option is not ruled out where one small co-op could benefit from merging with a couple of others to remain mutual, rather than demutualising. That is the key point.

We have seen that in a slightly different way with credit unions. I helped merge a small credit union in Gloucester with a number of others in Gloucestershire to create one single Gloucestershire Credit Union. That enabled it to survive for another decade, although, sadly, it has now failed.

The key thing is that there are moments when even a mutual can benefit from additional scale by merging with other mutuals—specifically so that it does not need to demutualise. That is really my point, and I am sure the Minister will be able to shed light on the issue.

[Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

I will raise a few points, but I am happy for the Minister to write to me afterwards, rather than trying to respond to them straightaway.

One question is whether the Bill applies to credit unions. I doubt it does directly, but I would say in parenthesis that the Minister ought to consider referring to the Law Commission the law on credit unions, to see whether there are ways in which we can fill the gap between credit unions, whose interest rates are strictly controlled, and other private lenders, whose rates can be enormously high. It seems to me that giving credit unions freedom to do more of their work more effectively and for a greater number of people is important. I also believe that it should be possible to confirm whether the law could be such that people could give money to credit unions as though they were giving to a charity.

Some of the questions that have been raised today are actually dealt with by the terms of friendly societies, co-ops and the like. They can transfer their assets to another one, if they fail. That is not covered in this Bill; this Bill gives permissive power, as the hon. Member for Preston told us. It does not deal with the challenge that it is possible to persuade members of a co-operative, mutual or friendly society to change their regulations to allow distribution—I think that is still within scope—but it means more difficulty.

In the LV= situation, members were asked to approve something; they could also be asked to change the rules. As far as I understand it, if a society, mutual or co-op uses this Bill when it is enacted, its provisions can be undone by the members. They are not fixed in concrete forever, but it means that those who intend to preserve the assets and stop them being given out can put a first roadblock in the way.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrew Griffith)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell, and it is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ealing North. I congratulate the hon. Member for Preston on reaching Committee stage with this important Bill and on the role played by him and his team in championing the needs of the mutuals sector. I also congratulate my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, who did so much to pilot the Bill in its early stages and has given it his wholehearted support. It is always a pleasure to work with him, and I am pleased that we can take it forward.

I am pleased with the warm reception that the Bill has received right across the sector and on both sides of the House. A number of my colleagues look forward to their membership of the co-operative movement, and would it not be a wonderful thing if the co-operative movement once again graced both sides of the House? I always pay tribute to my thought leader in this space, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes, who has consistently advocated the benefits of a place-based approach to policy. We continue to hang on his every word as to how we can make that a reality as we seek to level up the United Kingdom.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester raised some important points. I will write to him with what I consider to be the best legal position on the perfectly fair points he raised in pursuit of facilitating transactions that would protect mutuals, and not seek to undermine them or create a loophole, which I am sure is not the spirit of what he suggests. Nor would the Government want to see that or support that.

[Richard Graham]

It was interesting that the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ealing North, raised an ambition to double, effectively, the size of the mutual sector. Although that is an admirable ambition, in an isolated sense, I think that there is work to be done on a review of the sector to see why some credit unions have failed, where the inability to raise capital is holding back the co-op and mutual movement, and what more can be done on some of the points mentioned by colleagues on both sides of the Committee to see where things are holding the sector back. Otherwise, the ambition in itself may not lead anywhere.

[Andrew Griffith]

I thank my hon. Friend for his point. It is a laudable ambition, which I am certainly happy to devote time to. Mutuals with the values of people in the community at their core are genuinely central to the vibrant, competitive and diverse—we are in favour of financial diversity—way in which the UK can serve the whole community. It is right that we look at how we do that, and how we can access capital. There are some technical points—I believe that Opposition Members understand that—in ensuring that we retain the tax advantages of mutuals, and do not inadvertently make them look more and more like corporate entities, which they are not, thereby prejudicing that tax treatment.