Fairness and Inequality

Debate between Richard Fuller and Sheila Gilmore

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller]

I appreciate my hon. Friend’s intervention. He is drawing our attention to the Government part of the debt, but I have to tell him that the stewardship of the economy by the Government was worse even before then. We, as people who can vote in Governments and as citizens, have to take that responsibility ourselves, too. We are responsible for what this generation does, whether it is our Government, our corporations or any other aspect of society, but we pass on those consequences to our children and grandchildren and they will inherit either a more equal and more prosperous society or a less equal and less prosperous society because of the decisions that we make as individuals and the way in which we hold our Government to account.

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Richard Fuller]

With respect, others wish to speak, so I will move on now to specific parts of the motion.

Let me address the issue of austerity measures and why they are in place. First, there is the fact that we have accumulated too much debt. Another issue is the ripple effects of that debt crisis. As the Government deal with the overriding debt, individual families, especially those in vulnerable circumstances, are pushed to the edge and need to go to payday lenders and other high interest rate lenders to deal with the consequences of that macro-financial situation. The individual circumstances of individual households have to be taken into account.

The other issue—again, it is the legacy of what occurred in preceding years—is the way in which house prices have become detached from incomes. Shelter is running a campaign on the issue, and although it is an interesting point to raise, I think that it is about 10 years too late. In the Living Wage Commission report, to which many hon. Members have referred, there is an interesting chart—figure 1.21—which looks at the ratio of house prices to earnings for the years 1952, 1975, 1997 and 2012. For the entire period from 1952 to 1997, the ratio of house prices to income fell. In 1952, it was five times the average income, but by 1997, it was 4.1 times. In the period from 1997 to 2012, it rose from 4.1 times to 6.7 times; 100% of that increase took place in the period to 2007. If we look at the cost of living and the cost of housing—part of enabling people to own their own home, get on the property ladder and pay their rent—we see that the issue of inequality will take time to resolve, because it took us a long time to get into that mess in the first place.

The motion refers to women and relative pay. I want to draw to the attention of the House, not by way of answer but by way of contribution to the argument, the House of Commons economic indicators report for February 2014. It looks at the gender pay gap and it makes the broad point that the overall pay gap between men and women has decreased steadily from 1997, but in considering whether the gap will be perpetuated in the future, it examines the gender pay gap by age range. For women and men between 18 and 39, the pay gap oscillates between 1.4% and 0.3%. For women over 40, it oscillates between 12% and 18%, which raises a question for policy makers such as the Minister: is that issue to do with career breaks and will it persist over time, or is it the result of a fairly good news story, with younger women and younger men on average having access to the same sort of jobs and pay, so that in about 20 years’ time the differential will go down? I do not put that forward as an answer, because I do not know the answer, but as a contribution to the debate and to broaden understanding.

There have been a number of contributions about the working poor, poverty and the living wage. We have discussed raising wages from the minimum wage level to living wage levels, but too frequently that would result in a small pay increase for the individuals concerned. It is a transaction between the employer and the Government in terms of the interaction of benefits and compensation. To contradict my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who discussed the free market in wages—it is a small difference—I would argue that if in the low-pay sector Government are topping up wages to the tune of £10,000 on a £13,000 wage, which is the case for a married person with two children earning the minimum wage, the free market is far from working. There could be a strong argument, not only from the point of view of public finances but in order to have a freer market, for urging the Government to increase the pressure on companies by removing that subsidy, which is supporting labour. However, I should be interested to hear more from my hon. Friend.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Fuller]

I have not seen that report, but I have seen the data on those using the food bank in Bedford. For a large proportion of people the causes are related to benefit changes. I do not have the statistics, but within that group some people have been sanctioned for not complying with the benefit rules. Would the hon. Gentleman support policies that sanction people for not conforming with the benefit rules, or does he believe that they should not be sanctioned?

[Sheila Gilmore]

My constituents are not being sanctioned for not looking for a job, but for one-off incidents. One constituent rearranged an interview with the Work programme provider because of difficulties with her child’s school start times and was told that that was okay, but she was subsequently sanctioned. People are being sanctioned for minor infringements, almost on a whim.

[Richard Fuller]

I do not want the hon. Lady to conflate two things. If the 42% figure reflects the situation in Bedford, it is to do with the broader issues of benefits, which includes sanctions, changes to benefits and the specific examples that the hon. Lady mentioned, where the reason is fairly spurious or there is just a plain error. I do not believe such cases make up the 42% proportion, but they are part of it. But I am a Tory, so I understand that large bureaucracies forget the individual and people are caught by that. In my constituency—as I am sure the hon. Lady is in her constituency—I am creating a form with the local food bank provider so that when circumstances such as she describes occur, my office can be informed straight away. It is important that we as Members of Parliament use our power, when such spurious changes to benefits are made, to shorten the time that they take to resolve. For some of my constituents that can take six, seven, eight weeks or more, which is not correct if a sanction has been inappropriately applied.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 4th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

It is truly a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), who is a mighty champion for our small businesses that are trying to access international markets. It is no wonder that her region leads the country in increasing exports to developing and developed nations around the world. She spoke most eloquently about the benefits for small businesses and echoed some of the points made by my hon. Friend the Minister about the impact of the Bill on the willingness of employers to add to their labour force.

I want to focus on the Bill’s impact not on the quantity of people who will be employed but on the price of labour, and on how the Bill might be used to implement some of the efforts to create a living wage across the United Kingdom. The Treasury team have come across a useful tool in implementing that change, and it is up to them to see how much courage they might have to move forward with this initiative to achieve it. That marks the difference between those on the Opposition Benches, who wish to posture over changes in the economy on employment and wages, and Government Members, who are interested in taking action to achieve change.

If I may, I shall consider the record of the previous Labour Government. As we have heard often today, the Labour Government were interested in increasing the tax on employment, and indeed went into the general election calling for increases in the jobs tax. Despite the words we have heard today, we have not heard one word of apology from the Labour party for saying at the last election that the right way to increase employment was to increase the tax on jobs. Still no apology on that, but it was part of a pattern that impacted negatively on the price of employment.

Labour abolished the 10p tax rate. It created a tax credits system that was an incredibly complex way to give people a post-tax income on which they could live. Any of us with constituents who have been caught up with tax credits when they went wrong knows how hard it is for families when the tax credits office claws those tax credits back and savings have to be found. Why on earth was that system a good system? Underpinning it—

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Richard Fuller]

I will give way in a second; I would love to hear from the hon. Lady.

Underpinning that system was Labour’s creation of a benefits system that discouraged work. We had hundreds of thousands of workers in our country going out to work on the minimum wage or a little more and seeing people living on benefits when they could have worked and ending up with a lifestyle that those people in work could not afford. Labour has not apologised for that policy and has opposed even the benefits cap.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the intention behind tax credits was indeed to encourage people to enter employment and that 350,000 single parents entered employment as a direct result of the introduction of the tax credits system?

[Richard Fuller]

The hon. Lady makes a point, but not a particularly good one. If the economy was borrowing so much money to stimulate employment, it was not a particularly outstanding outcome to achieve an increase in one part of the labour force of 350,000, especially when we consider the fact that every Labour Government have left office with unemployment higher than when they came to office.

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Richard Fuller]

That is the bigger picture to which I guess the hon. Lady wishes to return, as she is one of, I think, just two Labour Back Benchers in the Chamber.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again and being so generous with his time. That myth about every Labour Government leaving office with unemployment higher than when it came to office is not entirely accurate. For example, unemployment was extremely low at the end of the period in office of the 1945-51 Labour Government. Under the Tory Governments of 1979 to 1997, unemployment was more than 10% in the majority of those years.