Finance Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Shabana Mahmood

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Government have been busily trying to claim that the changes to tax credits will result in no real change because the new national living wage, which is effectively only an increase in the national minimum wage, will make up for that. The IFS has made it clear that that is arithmetically impossible. That is a pretty damning indictment of the messages that the Government have been trying to put out since the Budget on 8 July.

[Richard Fuller]

I feel for the hon. Lady, because she has only one Labour Back Bencher here to support her—perhaps because the de facto Opposition are now the Scottish National party. On that specific point about the national living wage, which she calls an enhanced national minimum wage, will the Labour party be supporting or opposing it?

[Shabana Mahmood]

It is quality that counts, rather than quantity, and Labour Members will show their true quality, as opposed to those sitting to my left—literally to my left, that is—on the SNP Benches. We will of course support the measures that will bring in what is effectively the new national minimum wage, but it is important to expose the fact that it is not, in fact, a living wage. The living wage is calculated on the assumption that there will be full take-up of tax credits, which is exactly what the Chancellor has cut. Given the cut to tax credits, the real living wage will be significantly higher than anything the Chancellor has set out. The effect of his decision is that in 2016 he will be offering the people of this country the 2011 living wage. That is an important point to get on the record. That is why the IFS has said that compensating ordinary working people for the loss of their tax credits with the changes on wages is arithmetically impossible.

[Shabana Mahmood]

The hon. Gentleman makes a really important point. Taken alongside the changes to student maintenance grants and other measures, the Budget will leave young people, particularly those from poorer backgrounds, worse off. It will have a real impact on their life chances. As those measures are brought forward, it is important that we keep holding the Government’s feet to the fire on the impact they are having on young people.

Changes to the national minimum wage are normally made by statutory instrument, but given the change in the name—the Chancellor’s rebadging exercise—they might need to be done by primary legislation. I would be grateful if the Minister explained how the Government will go about making those changes. If primary legislation is needed, I am rather surprised that the changes are not set out in the Bill. It would be good to have the Government’s further comments on that.

The Bill contains nothing more on productivity, notwithstanding the Minister’s comments in his opening speech. Solving the productivity puzzle is absolutely imperative if we are to experience much stronger economic growth and get the deficit down more fairly. The Conservatives’ record on productivity is one of failure, given the difference between productivity in our country and in our competitors’ economies. I am afraid that the Budget simply offered more of the same.

Despite the Chancellor’s boasts, the Office for Budget Responsibility has revised productivity down next year, the year after, the year after that, and the year after that. His belated productivity plan was simply a patchwork of existing schemes, rather than a substantial reform to boost skills, business growth and wages. The Bill should also have included legislation on big infrastructure decisions, which the Government appear to have ducked.

[Richard Fuller]

To tie the issue of productivity, by which I think the hon. Lady means the record on labour productivity, to that of tax credits, does she feel that there is an argument to be made that the widespread nature of tax credits during the last recession played a significant role in the willingness of workers to job share and accept reduced wages in order to maintain themselves in employment, because they knew that the state was going to top up their income if it fell? Therefore, although I support the changes to tax credits, research is still needed into the beneficial impact they can have on maintaining employment in times of recession.

[Shabana Mahmood]

The hon. Gentleman raises a very important point. When we debated tax credits before the Budget, I discussed, I believe with the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), the way in which, in the last recession, tax credits assisted people to remain in work—to accept a reduction in hours, knowing that they would have the safety net of tax credits to help them through that difficult time. More research is needed; the Government should have looked at the way in which tax credits have assisted people. There is a real danger in removing tax credit support from people without having already embedded into the economy the high-skilled, high-paid jobs that we all agree are needed. If our economy had been transformed—if the Government had brought forward proposals that meant that vastly larger numbers of people were in higher-paid work—there would be no need for tax credits and it would be possible to move to a system where we could phase out or decrease the support.

A modern economy needs a modern infrastructure, but the Government have pulled the plug on electrification of the railways. They have pulled the rug out from under investment in renewable energy and flunked the decision on airports. I was interested to see that the Home Secretary was very willing to take on the hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) when it came to water cannons. The least the Chancellor could have done was to take on the hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip when it came to the decision on airports. It would have been good to see this Finance Bill at least start that process.

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[Shabana Mahmood]

That was not quite the cutting put-down that the Minister might have envisaged. That is our position, and that is what all our party will be doing today.

[Richard Fuller]

Given that the official Labour party position on the important Welfare Reform and Work Bill yesterday was to abstain and that its position on this Finance Bill is to abstain, can the hon. Lady clarify that it is the intention of the loyal Opposition to abstain on every major piece of legislation in this Parliament?

[Shabana Mahmood]

That question probably sounded more cutting in the development in the hon. Gentleman’s mind than in the delivery. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) chunters from a sedentary position. He is welcome to intervene on me if he so wishes. I will be delighted to give way to him.

I say to the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) and others that abstaining on Second Reading, as he well knows because he is a veteran of debates on Finance Bills, both in Committee and in the Chamber, does not mean that we will not press matters to a vote later in the Bill’s passage. Indeed, on the second sitting day in September we will be considering the Bill in Committee of the Whole House, where we will have tabled amendments, on which we will be voting, on other important measures including bank taxation, the climate change levy and the insurance premium tax. We can all have a lot of fun then when it comes to voting on amendments and debating them at great length.

Tax Credits (Working Families)

Debate between Richard Fuller and Shabana Mahmood

Tuesday 7th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

I think that it is for the Government to tell us what they plan to do about the living wage, and I hope that the Minister will enlighten us when he winds up the debate. At the time of the general election, we made a manifesto commitment to incentivise employers to pay the living wage. The Government are welcome to steal that policy, but they should steal it—and allow it to embed a living wage, and higher wages, in our economy—before they start messing around with tax credits.

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

rose—

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[Shabana Mahmood]

I will give way to the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller), but then I must make some progress.

[Richard Fuller]

The hon. Lady mentioned the Labour party manifesto. Will she be a bit more specific? For example, does she favour the granting of tax credits for training contracts to take people from the minimum wage to the living wage, does she support a requirement for local authorities that commission care to commission it in a way that enables employers to pay the living wage, and does she agree that, given the persistence of zero-hours contracts for less than two years, there should be a requirement for such contracts to carry the living wage?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The hon. Gentleman has made some interesting and important observations about the way in which we can encourage employers to pay the living wage, and I hope that Ministers take up his suggestions. Ours was a clear, straightforward policy to incentivise the paying of the living wage by sharing with employers the benefit that the Government obtain because people are earning more money.

National Insurance (Contributions) Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Shabana Mahmood

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

If I heard the hon. Lady correctly, she said that she wanted the cut in the jobs tax to be brought in sooner, yet in 2010 she said in Committee that she was proud to stand on a record of increasing the jobs tax. Does that represent a flip-flop?

[Shabana Mahmood]

It does not represent a flip-flop, as the hon. Gentleman well knows. It would not be a debate on this issue if he did not make the point that he has made on a number of occasions. I would have felt as though I had missed out on something if he had not made that intervention, so I am grateful to him. He will not be surprised if I repeat my previous answers to him in relation to national insurance. I was very proud to stand for election on the Labour party manifesto at the 2010 general election and proud that the Labour Government had got the recovery under way at the time of that election—a recovery that was choked off by this Government as soon as they came into power. [Interruption.] Government Members might not like to hear it, but I am afraid that that does not stop it being true.

Let me clarify my point about the employment allowance. From the moment it was announced in the Budget, our immediate critique was not that it should not be introduced —we supported its introduction from the beginning—but to say, as we have continued to say, “Bring it in as soon as possible—why wait?” If there were compelling reasons for the wait, it would be understandable, but I am afraid that I find nothing compelling in anything the Minister has ever said about the delay in bringing these proposals forward. All the issues relating to IT and systems and getting software up and running could be sorted out, with a bit of will.

I understand that software developers are still waiting on HMRC to give them the full guidelines on what software they will need to produce to make sure that take-up of the employment allowance goes ahead with relative ease. I hope that the Minister has had sight of the submission by Mr Holloway of the Learn Centre to the National Insurance Contributions Bill Committee, which was submitted after the Committee had disbanded but was still made available to all its members, because it contains concerns about the delay in getting proper clarification and explanation to software developers on what they need to do in relation to the employment allowance. Given that it is December and they have to get ready for the employment allowance to come online in April 2014, they will not have a huge amount of time to get everything in place and ready. If that is the position on the employment allowance, then why not add in the proposal on NICs for under-21s and deal with both issues at the same time?

Given that we are speaking from the Opposition Benches—unfortunately—our amendment does not propose that the measure should be introduced immediately in 2014; otherwise Government Members would no doubt have shouted at us about the cost of doing so and the spending commitment entailed. However, we have asked for a review that would look at the level of youth unemployment now and the impact that introducing the measure in April 2014 would have had on the level of youth unemployment as it stands today. That is because the Government should not escape scrutiny for the impact that this measure may have had compared with what it will have, I hope, when it comes into force in 2015. If it is found that the measure would have had a significant impact, as we believe it would, that is an important bit of information and the Government would be put under pressure to introduce it sooner than they intended.

This Government found money in the autumn statement for the married couples allowance. They have always said that the recognition of marriage in the tax system is symbolic. However, government is about choices and priorities, and if money can be found immediately to do something that is symbolic and sends a message, then surely it should be found for a practical Government measure that helps to prioritise our young people who need jobs today and not on a date far from now. The choices and priorities of this Government are wrong and they should think again. The emergency presented to this country by the current rate of youth unemployment cannot wait to be dealt with on some future date. The Government should reconsider the start date of this proposal. We therefore intend to press our amendment to a vote.

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[Shabana Mahmood]

Given that I am still relatively new to my shadow Treasury brief, I am not yet—as hon. Members who served in Committee will no doubt be pleased to note—suffering from review fatigue. Both of the new clauses seek further reviews from the Government. New clause 1 envisages a post-implementation review, which was the subject of some debate in Committee, and I felt it was worth having a further discussion to push the Government a little more in relation to the impact that the employment allowance will have on jobs and wage rates, and the effectiveness of the promotion of the employment allowance to all those who are eligible for it.

New clause 2 envisages an administrative and compliance cost review—a one-off review to take place six months after the employment allowance comes into force. It was prompted by the evidence of Mr Holloway, which I mentioned earlier, and I shall go into more detail shortly.

In Committee, the Minister helpfully indicated that he would publish information on two of the elements that I have included in new clause 1—the overall take-up of the employment allowance and its geographical spread. I understand from his comments in Committee that the information on the geographical location of those taking up the employment allowance will probably be available on a regional basis. I hope that he will clarify that point when he responds to the debate. The Minister said that he would put information on both elements in the Library so that Members can raise questions about the effectiveness of the employment allowance and its take-up levels. We have in mind the previous regional national insurance employers’ holiday, which had difficulties from the start. We have made the point that those difficulties should have been dealt with sooner, and it is in that context that we think the Government should have a formal post-implementation review of the take-up of the employment allowance.

[Richard Fuller]

The hon. Lady earlier made the breathtaking assertion that although the Labour party was proudly in favour of increasing the jobs tax in 2010, its attempt now to reduce it was not a flip-flop. With the proposal of an annual review, businesses will be concerned that the Labour party is not committed to the employment allowance, as we are. The hon. Lady said in Committee that she could not commit the Labour party to supporting the employment allowance at the next election, so will she therefore admit that Labour’s support for employment allowance is at risk in their shuffle of policies before that election?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I will repeat exactly what I said to the hon. Gentleman when we had this debate in Committee: we have been unequivocal in our support for employment allowance since it was introduced in the Budget earlier this year. We have taken every opportunity to say to the Minister and his colleagues in the Treasury team that it should be introduced sooner. We could not have been more unequivocal in our support.

The purpose of the review is not to put the employment allowance at risk. The regional national insurance employers’ holiday scheme had problems with take-up from the start. They were raised with Ministers in this House at every available opportunity—in oral and written questions—yet we had to wait for the full three years of the scheme to run before the Government brought forward a proposal without the same problems. That is the context for tabling new clause 1. We want employment allowance to succeed and not suffer from low take-up—we want it to be taken up. The Government say that it will be taken up by 90% of eligible employers. I am sure that all Members want to see 100% take-up, and there seems to be no real reason why 10% should be missed off. We want to ensure that take-up is not affected by any unforeseen issues during roll-out.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Shabana Mahmood

Monday 4th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

That was a valiant effort to change the subject, but today we are talking about this Minister’s record and the regional national insurance holiday plan. I note that the Minister could not bring himself to admit that the Opposition were right and that he was wrong about that. Perhaps we can return to that point later.

The Minister sought to focus as much as he could on the employment allowance and desperately tried to forget its predecessor scheme that the Government introduced in their 2010 emergency Budget—the regional national insurance holiday, which was enacted in the National Insurance Contributions Act 2011. The national insurance holiday was an abject failure, so I am not surprised that he wants to pretend it never happened, but it did, and it failed utterly. He has wasted three years clinging to that policy rather than doing what Opposition Members told him to do, which was to rip it up and design a new scheme that took account of the criticisms made by us and others.

The Bill introduces the employment allowance, which we support, so perhaps we should give the Minister credit for getting there in the end, but it is somewhat difficult to do so, because it has taken him far too long to rectify the flaws of the previous scheme, which we warned him about from the beginning, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) has reminded him. As a result, businesses desperate for help have struggled in the meantime.

Those businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, which are the engine of our economy, have continued to suffer. Bank lending to SMEs is still contracting, and analysis published by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills shows that tightening credit has disproportionately affected low and average-risk SMEs. Last year, Project Merlin missed its target for lending to SMEs by more than £1 billion. In 2010, the Office for Budget Responsibility predicted that lending to businesses would have risen 34% by now, but in fact it has fallen by 10%.

Given this climate of the past three years, action has been necessary to support business, but, on national insurance, it has taken the Government too long to get there.

[Richard Fuller]

The hon. Lady is making some fair criticism of the national insurance holiday, but does she agree that one problem with the holiday was that it was a one-off, and that businesses are so smart in their planning that they ignore one-off schemes and go on previous predictions? Does she agree that a steady basis for policy is better than one-off, one-year schemes?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, but there were many other problems with the national insurance holiday, which I shall return to later.

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[Shabana Mahmood]

The hon. Gentleman is somewhat confused. As was pointed out earlier, we always said that one of the problems with the scheme was the regional element, and I am coming to that point.

During the passage of the National Insurance Contributions Act 2011, we told the Minister that he should drop the regional condition attached to the national insurance holiday and expand it to areas of the UK that had been excluded. Today, he brings to the House the employment allowance, which does exactly that. In fact, the Government’s analysis, published this morning, shows that more than 40% of the expected total number of employers who will not pay any NICs under the employment allowance are based in regions excluded from the previous scheme. At the time, the Minister said that extending the national insurance holiday across the UK would increase the cost by approximately £600 million to a total of £1.6 billion over three years. Today, his employment allowance is predicted to cost £1.3 billion in the first year, rising to £1.7 billion by 2017-18. We said that the national insurance holiday should be extended to cover all businesses, rather than simply new ones. Today, the Minister is introducing an employment allowance that covers all businesses, not just new businesses.

[Richard Fuller]

I am delighted to hear the hon. Lady talk about the virtues of expanding reductions in national insurance across the country and extending it in terms of time. Does she therefore think it was wrong for her, in the previous election, to stand on a manifesto that advocated an increase in national insurance?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I was proud to stand as a Labour candidate at the general election when the economy was starting to grow, but that recovery was choked off by the hon. Gentleman’s Government.

During the Committee stage of the National Insurance Contributions Act 2011, we tabled amendments to extend the national insurance holiday to charities. The employment allowance will do just that. This is effectively our policy, so we are of course delighted to support the Bill. Since the policy was announced in the Budget, we have been calling for it to be enacted immediately, rather than waiting until April 2014.

Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Debate between Richard Fuller and Shabana Mahmood

Monday 5th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

May I welcome the Minister formally to his place? It is a pleasure to continue on Report the debate that we had in Committee.

I shall speak to new clause 7 and amendment 20, which stand in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends. I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of the Government’s movement in relation to the introduction of new clause 3 and new clause 4, which, as he explained, envisages a five-year sunset clause and moves us somewhat further on than did our debate in Committee.

New clause 7 would replicate the position under the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005, which brought in the control order regime, and the amendment would limit to 12 months the powers under the TPIMs regime and would, therefore, require their annual renewal by Parliament.

Our new clause began in Committee as an amendment, which I moved, and was based on oral evidence given in Committee by Liberty, Justice and others. It was introduced to reflect our concerns that the Government’s legislation will mean fewer checks and balances on what are exceptional measures. Many in the House agree that they are undesirable and in an ideal world we would not have to have them, but they have proved necessary, given the serious terrorist risks that we face.

I do not often agree with Liberty, particularly on control orders, because our starting points for the debate are different, but I was struck by its evidence in Committee, when the organisation made it clear that it would rather—to be fair to Shami Chakrabarti, she said that she would choke on these words—take existing control orders, with their annual renewal, meaning a 12-month limit on their power, over the new TPIMs regime. The reasons for that—and why I agree with that position—primarily relate to the importance of bringing such exceptional measures back to the House for regular, annual review and, if Parliament deems it appropriate, for renewal.

[Richard Fuller]

I was not on the Committee, but in the evidence I noted Lord Carlile’s comments about the point of annual renewal. He said that

“annual renewal has been a bit of a fiction, to be frank,”

and went on to issue a challenge, stating that

Parliament should have the courage of its convictions and decide whether it wants a regime like this or not.”—[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; c. 23-24, Q70.]

How does the hon. Lady square that with her view of annual reviews?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I am grateful for that intervention, and I will come to Lord Carlile’s evidence in Committee. He clearly did not think that annual renewal was needed, but recent developments, in particular the introduction of the Government’s draft Bill four days ago, make annual renewal even more necessary than before. I will turn shortly to the reasons why.

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[Shabana Mahmood]

The right hon. Gentleman does not, so I shall press on.

I spoke of the draft Bill that the Government published a few days ago, which seeks to introduce control order powers by way of emergency legislation. That Bill, which we will discuss at length shortly, raises many questions, and an early opportunity for Parliament to take stock of the operation, implementation, practice and working of that regime will be welcome.

[Richard Fuller]

The hon. Lady is being extraordinarily generous in giving way. The question that I should like to ask is from the perspective of the people who are under control orders and similar restrictions. Such people have not been brought to trial and no evidence has been presented to them to substantiate the reasons why they are under such restrictions. She is advocating annual reviews, and increases as well as decreases in powers, but has she considered the commentary on the mental health implications for the people who are subject to control orders? In that regard, does she believe that some period of certainty for those people on how they will be treated will be welcome?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The first part of the hon. Gentleman’s intervention makes my point for me. This is about the balance of risk. It is in the interests of those who are under control orders for Parliament to look at such measures at regular intervals rather than once every five years. His intervention supports rather than goes against my point.

[Richard Fuller]

rose—

[Shabana Mahmood]

I shall make some progress, because I am about to wind-up on new clause 7.

The Minister spoke of the comments made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) on Second Reading. My right hon. Friend spoke powerfully on the merit of reaching a settled position on such measures, but I should tell the Minister that given what has happened in the past few days, we are clearly not at a settled position on the Bill. In fact, the Government unsettled matters further by introducing the draft Bill a few days ago. For that reason, the Opposition believe that an annual renewal measure is merited and needed now more than ever, and we shall later seek to press new clause 7 to a Division.

I am grateful for the Minister’s comments on amendment 20, which is in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends. He updated the House and told us from the Dispatch Box that the police say that they will be able to meet the increased risks that we face under TPIMs with the additional resources, but I am afraid that I do not feel reassured by what he said, and we need to consider the matter in greater detail in the House this evening.

By way of background, I should add that amendment 20 began life in Committee, as the Minister noted, and was introduced following evidence given to the Committee by Deputy Assistant Commissioner Osborne, the national co-ordinator for counter-terrorist investigations. It is important to consider his evidence in detail. He was asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) about the time scales that he was working to in relation to the TPIMs regime, given that we have the Olympics next year, which is a particular concern. He said:

“To get the resources that we anticipate we need will take more than a year, in terms of being able to get people trained and to get the right equipment. Until we have got that, we will not be able to start to bed things in and see how it works and how it transpires. It also depends on how many people actually go on to the TPIMs regime and how many people come off it. There are a lot of inter-dependents there. The control order put people in the protect and prepare part of the Contest strategy. TPIMs moves them back into the pursue element of the strategy, which is a slight paradox because it was only due to the failure to get sufficient evidence to prosecute them that we moved them into the control order in the first place

He was asked further questions about resources by the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips). He asked why Mr Osborne was saying that it would take a year for the new regime to bed in, to which Mr Osborne replied:

“I think I said it would take a year to procure and train sufficient additional assets before it would be ready to do that. We have to order some of the assets so that they are made in advance. To train a surveillance officer and then have them fully able to operate in a challenging environment probably takes at least 12 months before they are deployable. Once they are deployable, they have to work within the environment under a new set of regimes that will need to bed in.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; c.9-10.]

That important evidence is the reason I moved the amendment in Committee and why I tabled amendment 20 for debate today. I was extremely concerned about the position on resources. The evidence from Mr Osborne was obviously stark, and it raised in my mind the spectre that if the Bill were passed by the end of this year, as we anticipate it will be, we would create a concerning situation: the additional resources required to meet the increased risk might not be deployable, and if they are, it seems they might be only partially ready. That is not, to my mind, a satisfactory state of affairs. The amendment therefore seeks to prevent the Bill from coming into force until the resources are online and would put in place a mechanism by which to get agreement between the national co-ordinator and the Home Secretary on the additional resources required and to get them ready and online.

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[Shabana Mahmood]

I entirely endorse my right hon. Friend’s point, which reminds me that, under the Bill, access to electronic communications must be provided to suspects. One of the justifications for that is that the suspects will be monitored in that way, and the equipment will be provided by the Home Office. Presumably, some kind of software or hardware wiring will be needed to enable the suspects to be traced, and to listen in on conversations. Again, I do not believe that those technical assets could be procured overnight, especially given the different kinds of asset that might be needed to deal with different kinds of risk.

[Richard Fuller]

I fear that Opposition Members might be trying to scare Members of Parliament when there is no real justification for doing so. In Committee, the hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) spoke of increased threats, saying:

“I visited some of our prisons and I saw some of the terrorists who had been prosecuted, and they really are scary people. Next year, a large number of them will be released on licence, and they will be back in society, so the threat is always there.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 23 June 2011; c. 55.]

Does not that show that our police and security forces are constantly having to meet these threats? If the police feel comfortable managing people who have been convicted and are coming out of prison, this modification of control orders into TPIMs is a minor issue in comparison. The hon. Lady is building this issue up into something that it is not.

[Shabana Mahmood]

I entirely disagree with the hon. Gentleman. In fact, he almost makes my point for me. The police do an incredible job of trying to protect us from the serious risks that we face, not only from the individuals who are or have been subjected to a control order, but from the many hundreds, possibly thousands, more who are of interest to them in their investigations into potential terrorism offences. The risk is always there, which is why we had to bring in the control order regime and why we believe those powers are necessary. Elements of the Bill decrease those measures in such a way as to increase the risk. We are told that the risk can be mitigated by the additional resources, but it cannot be eliminated. We have a real fear that those additional resources will not be ready by the time the Bill comes into force. For that reason, amendment 20 would reassure the public; its purpose is really no more than that.

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[Shabana Mahmood]

I am mindful of the time, so I will try to keep my comments relatively brief.

I endorse the powerful contribution made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). She spoke with great passion about an issue that has concerned her for some time. It certainly concerned her in Committee, and it has concerned Opposition Front Benchers, too.

Relocation has been a central issue in the debates that we have had about the Bill, both on Second Reading and in Committee, and it is one of the most important issues that we are taking forward on Report. New clause 1 seeks to add the power of relocation to the Bill to replicate the position in relation to control orders under the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005.

It is clear from the evidence that the relocation power has proved extremely useful in disrupting terrorist activity. It is regularly described by police and others as one of the most useful and effective powers that they have under the control orders regime. We know that nine of the 12 current control orders have relocation as part of the control order.

The importance of relocation as a measure to be made available to the police in meeting the terror threat was made clear at the evidence sessions held by the Public Bill Committee. We heard evidence from Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stuart Osborne, for whom, like my right hon. Friend said, I am starting to feel slightly sorry. She quoted him, but I will repeat the important bit of the quote again because it will concentrate the mind of the House:

“The relocation issue has been very useful for us being able to monitor and enforce at the current time. Without that relocation, and depending on where people choose to live, that could be significantly more difficult.”

He added:

“The new freedoms that will be given to individuals will significantly increase the challenges that we have to face, and managing those challenges will increase the resources that we need. The degree to which we are successful in managing them depends on both the extent of the Bill and the additional resources that we get.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; c. 5-6, Q 10 and 14.]

The importance of relocation as a measure was further highlighted by Lord Howard and Lord Carlile. Lord Howard, the former Home Secretary, has described the power as the single most useful power in ensuring that the package of measures that we have is sufficient to keep us safe.

It is clear from the evidence that the police gave to the Committee that the additional risk created by removing relocation from the TPIMs regime could be mitigated by the additional resources, but it would not be eliminated and there are of course degrees of mitigation. In Committee, DAC Osborne was only “hopeful” that the risk would not increase if the Bill were passed, which does not fill me with a huge amount of confidence.

It is clear, and we must recognise, that there is an irreducible minimum number of people who pose a serious threat to our country and we have to have an adequate and effective way to manage that risk. Relocation is clearly an important part of that package of measures. It is our view that, if the new clause is added to the Bill, the policing challenge that DAC Osborne and others will face will be reduced and our collective security protected. It has always been our concern that if this Bill closes off the power of relocation to the Home Secretary—if it deprives her of being able to use that power—that would deprive her of an incredibly important tool in her kit bag for dealing with the threat posed by a very small number of people. For those reasons, we will support new clause 1 in the Division.

[Richard Fuller]

It is a pleasure to be able to make a brief contribution to this debate.

I listened to the rhetoric of the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) in her opening speech in support of her new clause, and it made me even more scared about giving Administrations a fiat on the treatment of people in our judicial system, rather than leaving that with the judges. On many occasions, both in this debate and in Committee, the right hon. Lady talked about the importance of balance, but I feel that, in the sharpness of her rhetoric and the blithe way challenges were laid down and comments were made about loosening and potentially putting us at risk, her speech did not betray any balance whatever. That highlights one of the risks in giving the Executive the power to restrain and control people who have not been brought to justice. Both in the specific instance of relocation and more generally in the tone of Opposition Members, a disservice is being done to this Government’s attempts to return us to some semblance of the traditions of British justice that we achieved before the period of the so-called “war on terror”—before 2001—and we should remember that control orders were not introduced until 2005, and that therefore they were not in place between 2001 and the Iraq war, which some would argue was the period of greatest risk.

I wish to make a couple of comments on the specific issue of relocation. I have a lot of respect for the right hon. Lady and I do not mean to pick on her; I am just picking on her point. I challenged her earlier about democratic countries from which she drew inspiration. I could not think of any either, so I did some research on a well-known search engine. I looked up forced relocation of individuals. Kazakhstan featured prominently. There were also a few honourable mentions for Cambodia—not the current Cambodian Government, but I think we can work out which Government—and for Burma. Kazakhstan, Cambodia and Burma are not exactly the paragons of virtue in this respect that I would like our Government to follow as they attempt to strike the difficult balance of maintaining both the security of the nation and the liberty of the individual.

May I also refer to one not particularly tabloid-friendly comment on relocation? A number of Members have talked about meeting people who are subject to a control order or its equivalents and who have been subject to relocation. We must remember that those subject to control orders have not yet gone through full justice in our country. Many other countries, including the United States, have laws against cruel and unusual punishment. Relocation has the most significant negative impact on the mental health of these individuals. In evidence in Committee, Dr Korzinski said:

“What I am concerned about…is the absence of any sort of safeguards with respect to the impact on the mental health of the individuals who are subjected to these regimes. I can say quite unequivocally that it has been catastrophic in all the cases that I have worked on.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; c. 43, Q121.]

That may not be the most popular of reasons to oppose the right hon. Lady’s new clause, but there are also many others, such as support for our justice system and achieving that balance that she advocates, but which I do not think she spoke to today. I shall support the Government on this new clause.