Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for Workers

Debate between Richard Fuller and Neil Gray

Wednesday 18th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

I thank the Labour party for devoting some of its Opposition time to allow us all to discuss this serious, pertinent, timely and important issue, given the uncertainty facing many of our constituents across the UK.

With your forbearance, Madam Deputy Speaker, I stress at the outset for anybody watching that people should follow the advice of their local health authorities, such as NHS Scotland or Public Health England. Regular updates are coming from the Governments across the isles. I recommend that, as best as possible, employees and employers follow the available guidance.

I commend everyone leading the response to the situation, including NHS staff, other emergency services, local authorities, the voluntary sector and Governments across the isles, who have been working together as best as possible to ensure that the best advice, based on science, and the best support is available at the right time. I particularly praise Professor Jason Leitch, a former dux of Airdrie Academy in my constituency and the Scottish Government’s national clinical director. Alongside the Scottish Health Secretary Jeane Freeman and the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, he has been the model of calm, erudite leadership.

In the spirit of cross-party co-operation that we have seen emerge at Holyrood, I, too, have no desire to be political or criticise where working constructively can bring about better outcomes and engender greater confidence in the response of all Governments to the crisis. When I call for further action, therefore, it is not because I think the UK Government are deliberately holding back. I believe there is a genuine desire across all Governments to do the right thing at the right time.

The concerns that remain in large sections of society regarding the UK Government’s economic response to covid-19 essentially boil down to ensuring that incomes are protected when demand falls in huge sections of the economy. Renters, the self-employed, small business owners and people who are in or out of work just want to know that they will get the financial support they need to survive.

Constituents who are self-employed, such as taxi drivers, driving instructors, childcare providers and many more, have contacted me because they are worried about making sure that they do the right thing at the right time, while providing for their families and employees. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) and the shadow Health Secretary, the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth), have led calls for statutory sick pay arrangements to be improved to help workers who contract covid-19 or who have to self-isolate.

Although we welcome the UK Government’s move to make sick pay kick in from day one, and for the cost of sick pay to be met by them for companies with fewer than 250 staff for a period of 14 days, there is still more to do to support workers and businesses. Statutory sick pay is a reserved matter, as is employment law, so those areas are required to be decided upon here.

My right hon. Friend compared statutory sick pay rates in the UK with the rates of our European neighbours. As the House will be aware, that is not currently a favourable comparison for the UK Government. The UK rate is currently £94.25 a week—the second lowest rate when compared with EU nations. Ireland doubled its rate to £266 in response to covid-19, while Germany and Austria both pay £287 a week. At £94.25 a week, the UK Government are presiding over a system of poverty pay for those who are sick. One Tory MP was asked on Twitter whether she could live on £94.25 per week, and she simply responded “Get a life”.

This is really serious. We are asking people, even if they have mild symptoms, to self-isolate for the greater good, to contain and delay the spread of covid-19. We must be sympathetic with constituents who are asking legitimate questions about the advice and support they are getting. Statutory sick pay is an issue that should have been resolved before now, frankly. In response to this situation, the UK Government must act quickly.

At the Work and Pensions Committee hearing this morning, there was consensus among the witnesses that statutory sick pay should be raised. Citizens Advice is asking for it to go up to £180 per week. Scope is asking for it to be the equivalent of the national minimum wage. Others have said that the equivalent of the real living wage would be more appropriate, and Scandinavian countries are making it 100% of wages. The UK Government must act.

Alongside the rate of statutory sick pay, there are other specific areas where we want to see action from the UK Government.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

Just for clarification, is the hon. Gentleman asking for a permanent change in Government policy on statutory sick pay, or a temporary change for this period?

[Neil Gray]

We have to reflect on the fact that, even not at times of crisis, UK statutory sick pay rate is considerably lower than that of other European nations. A permanent change is required, but a temporary measure which might go beyond that permanent increase is required to deal with covid-19, so the answer is both, if that makes sense.

The Government must extend the policy further to ensure that sick pay is set at an hourly rate and available for everyone for 52 weeks instead of 28. Current rules on statutory sick pay are not flexible enough to meet real-life needs and fall far short of meeting a dignified standard of living, even with this new change. Disability groups have been especially vocal in calling for an overhaul of the sick pay system. Their concerns must be factored into the UK Government’s response to the sick pay consultation.

The UK Government should accept the TUC’s recommendations on sick pay for all. Those include abolishing the lower earnings limit, which would extend coverage to almost 2 million additional workers; permanently removing the waiting period for sick pay; increasing the weekly level of sick pay from £94 to the equivalent of a week’s pay at the real living wage; permanently agreeing that the legal requirement on fit notes after seven days of absence be extended to 14 days, with employers accepting self-certification for anything less than that; and permanently providing funds to ensure that employers can afford to pay sick pay.

The UK Government must do all they can to support businesses, to ensure that jobs are kept for the duration of this crisis. I would like to see the UK Government provide much greater grants, rather than loans, to help all businesses stay afloat, and attach conditions about ensuring that jobs are protected. We have seen that type of initiative in Denmark, and I hope the UK will follow.

Clearly, we all hope that these issues are temporary. The UK Government must do all they can to ensure that the attachment between employer and employee is not detached. That is important for workers, employers and the wider economy. Yesterday, Robert Chote, the chair of the Office for Budget Responsibility, urged the UK Government not to be “squeamish” about spending whatever it takes to prevent mass foreclosures, bankruptcies and millions of job losses as the UK effectively goes into lockdown. He said:

“When the fire is large enough you just spray the water and worry about it later.”

I turn to measures to support people who are self-employed and other business owners. The UK Government must do more. I echo the calls from my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) last night. We must protect the incomes of people who are self-employed and do so quickly, to give them confidence. She was also right to raise issues around maternity leave, parental leave and support for people with no recourse to public funds; they are extremely vulnerable at the best of times, but right now they must be supported. The UK Government must give information to the devolved Governments as quickly as possible, and encourage much greater information sharing to allow all Governments to act swiftly and appropriately. At Prime Minister’s questions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber raised the prospect of some form of minimum income guarantee, such as a universal basic income. The Prime Minister appeared to accept the general premise, but time is now of the essence. Can the Minister give an idea of when he expects some form of announcement on people receiving financial support?

The UK Government should consider whether they will extend the normal deadlines for people to provide the necessary information to support social security applications, while paying people much more quickly as the demand is likely to be much greater. There is clearly a need to go further on social security. Ministers have heard me discuss the various issues that there are routinely with universal credit. The changes I want to universal credit, although they would undoubtedly help in this crisis, may not be practically achievable in a useful timescale—I am talking about scrapping the five-week wait, the two-child cap and increasing work allowances.

Instead, for the duration of this crisis, the UK Government need to ensure that those who are in or out of employment, those who are employed or self-employed, are paid an amount that allows them to get through. Universal credit advances, for instance, should now come in the form of a grant, not a loan. The Government should also look at urgently suspending the tax credit income disregard for reductions in earnings, at least for the 2020-21 financial year, to ensure that, where earnings fall, household tax credits entitlement takes account of that loss.

We now know that schools in Scotland and Wales are to close at the end of this week. That puts huge pressure on families who rely on free school meals, so I urge the UK Government to look at this area, as pressures are going to be on those families for the duration of the school closures.

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[Richard Fuller]

I appreciate the hon. Lady’s intervention. I am not speaking for the Government—I am sure the Minister will seek to address that—but I have to say that it sounds to me as though her constituent’s employer is just making an excuse, because the Government have been absolutely clear that it is the right thing to do socially for everyone in this country, if they have a concern, to be able to isolate themselves from others and to work from home. What more does that person need to understand what they should do? I hope they will get that message very clearly from the Front Bench.

On the point of leaders not doing the right thing, the experience of Virgin airlines has been raised. The owner or partial owner of Virgin airlines has suggested that employees should take eight weeks of unpaid leave, and I decided to look at how much that would cost. Eight weeks at the £94.25 rate of statutory sick pay would cost £754 per employee. There are 8,571 employees of Virgin airlines, so if all of them took eight weeks of unpaid leave, that would be a cost of £6.4 million. Sir Richard Branson’s net worth is $3.8 billion. If he is able to get 2% interest on that money for eight weeks, he will earn the equivalent of £9.9 million. So I say: Sir Richard Branson, give up the interest on your wealth for eight weeks, and pay your employees yourself their unpaid leave.

Big or small—a leader of a church in a small village or a leader of the large business—when it comes to looking at the protection of their workers, the time is now, and we will judge them all by their actions. It will be the same for the Government’s actions.

As I say, are we choosing the right policies? We have heard a lot about that today. I congratulate the Government on the staging of the announcements. There is so much pressure—all MPs are under pressure, with loads of questions: small or micro ones, and very large ones covering many issues—but I think the staging of announcements is a good approach, because we need this to bed in with people each day. If we put everything into an announcement on a single day, I would worry that, although we would feel we were communicating, we would find that it was not being received and understood as clearly as it should be.

[Neil Gray]

I commend the hon. Member’s speech thus far. To some extent I agree that, for preparedness in working through particular policies or interventions, there has to be some preparation and that does take time. However, in terms of people’s livelihoods, people are losing their jobs now and businesses are making decisions about their future viability now, so would he encourage the Government, as I have, to make an announcement about the financial impetus that could be given to protect individuals and jobs in hours, not days, so that this response can be adequate?

[Richard Fuller]

Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Those yeses are for each of the businesses in my constituency that I have spoken to in the last 24 hours that have asked for precisely that. We often think: how can a business suddenly be short of money to pay its own workers within a short period of time? But the truth is that, in some sectors, cash flow is of a nature that those issues do come up. More importantly, I say to those on my Front Bench that every single responsible private sector business right now will be thinking, first and foremost, “How can I protect cash flow for the long-term survival of my business?” One of the nearest short-term costs that can be reduced is their employee cost, so there is the sense that this is needed, as the hon. Member rightly says, in hours rather than days. To be fair, I think the Chancellor was very aware of that in his statement yesterday.

To that end, may I encourage hon. Members on both sides—there are slightly more on the Opposition Benches than on the Government Benches for certain reasons—to think more about using what is already in place, such as the systems that connect what the Government can do to those institutions and people that need it, rather than trying to broaden it out into a big and different debate about whether we should have this or that. There is of course a time for debating universal income, and there is time for us to think about ways in which we might look at a better overall system in the future.

Right now, I say to my right hon and hon. Friends on the Front Bench that we should be looking at proposals using the existing arteries of the financial system, of the benefits system and of the pay-as-you-earn and tax system that can reach people, either to amplify payments that are already made or to reverse flows from into the Government to back out to those who need them, and I ask them not to get too distracted by items along the way.

We should also recognise that in this period there will be a test for the labour market structure in the United Kingdom. The UK does have some not quite unique but nuanced features, particularly its reliance on flexible working and on self-employment. The changes that Governments have put in over the past 15 years to create a flexible market—there are benefits to that—will also be tested during this pause in the economy. After we have gone through this crisis, I would encourage the Government to see what lessons can be learnt from that.

This is also a test in terms of the enlightenment we have in our social insurance system. I was moved by the contributions from the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), the Chair of the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, and the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting). It is absolutely right that this is an opportunity for us to look at those things and to reflect. We may have different perspectives on it, and we will definitely have different politics, but only a fool would say that we should not look at this and learn lessons. This is no time for fools.

My core message for the Government is this: the staging of announcements is absolutely right, so that they can bed in with people; use the systems we have to get money into the hands of the people and businesses who need it; and follow the advice from both sides of the House, which is that we would welcome the Government’s moving with speed between the announcement and the time that the money is available in the bank manager’s office in Arlesey, Bolnhurst or anywhere else in the country, or in that person’s pay packet, their bank account, or their benefits slip.