Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill (Fourth sitting)

Richard Fuller Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 18th January 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Richard Fuller]

Q I want to follow on from the point made by my colleague, Mike Amesbury, about your November report. When it looked at estate management charges, there was a litany of abuses against residents who own their own home. As Mr Jones has just said, there was no information—or certainly not sufficient information—about obligations at the point of purchase. There was no transparency about the way in which information is provided. There were totally exorbitant charges for provision of basic things such as a bulb to go into a lamp post. There was an inability, or unwillingness, to provide annual reports to people, and limited to no redress for consumers.

I know that you are going to get to your final report in February. This Bill, helpfully in some ways, seeks to plug some of those gaps in the protection of people who own homes, but would it not be better for us to ban the lack of adoption right at the start? Should we not go to the source and find a solution as to why councils and housing estate developers are ripping off my constituents, and I am sure many others, who own their own homes? What can be done about that in this Bill?

George Lusty: Again, in our November working paper, we pointed to that very issue of there not being enough adoption by local authorities of those facilities. We put forward possible ways for that to be fixed, either through more mandatory adoption of those amenities or through some common adoptable standards that could be followed to inform the types of amenity that were suitable for adoption more broadly. As I say, we have not issued our final recommendations, but we have already said something about the options that might be available if there was a desire to try to tackle that now.

[Richard Fuller]

Q My concern is that you are going to finish your report, quite rightly, in the fullness of time—that will be February—and this Committee will not be sitting in February; heaven help us, I hope not. Please could you go away with a piece of homework for tonight to write to the Committee about what ideas from your report so far could be put in the Bill on the adoption matter? I think all of us would find that very helpful.

George Lusty indicated assent.

[The Chair]

Thank you. A very quick question with a very quick answer, please. Barry Gardiner.

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[Barry Gardiner]

Thank you very much. In order to preserve both our reputations, I will not say that you agreed with me and I trust that you will not say that I agreed with you.

[Richard Fuller]

Q Let me attempt to get back on to Conservative territory, rather than Barry’s territory. There are many experts in this field, and campaigners have done some fantastic work. I am not one of them—I do not know about this—so allow me some naivety in the questions I pose. Is marriage value a real thing?

James Vitali: I think a lot of the reforms proposed in this Bill are an attempt to reflect better the fact that when the leaseholder purchases the leasehold, they are acquiring the majority value of the asset. In market terms, sure, I suppose marriage value is significant and substantive, but as it stands it seems to me that a leaseholder acquires the majority of the value of an asset when they acquire the leasehold, and that is slowly eroded. I think that is the thing that is wrong in the process.

[Richard Fuller]

Q That did not quite answer my question. My question was: is marriage value a real thing? It could be large or small. Can you describe what it is and do you perceive that it is a real thing? I read somewhere about some vases—I do not know why we have these vase analogies sometimes—and I kind of get it. There is vase A and vase B—apparently they have to be Chinese—and when you put the two together, they are more valuable than they are separately. Is that a real thing? Do you understand that as a source of value? If you do, can you explain to me the legitimacy of transferring, at a stroke, £1.9 billion of that from one group of people to another, and that not to be described as a windfall gain?

James Vitali: Tricky question. If you were to acquire some property that you have genuine rights and responsibilities for the management of, the ability to benefit from in the future and the ability to control, then that form of property would be greater than if you were subject to charges and ground rent. On the point about the £1.9 billion transfer value from freeholders to leaseholders, I did take a cursory look at the impact assessment. I do think that is a legitimate decision for you as parliamentarians to make about 10-year property rights in the UK. I think it is justified.

[Richard Fuller]

Q I have one final question, if I may. I know it is not quite at a stroke, because I think it is when they come up, but is there any way of mitigating? It seems to me that when you take something away from one person incompletely and you cannot actually say, “Well, the value wasn’t there”—I understand fee-for-service but marriage value is different from that—there is no other mitigation for the loss of that party, and there is not in the Bill. We can agree that marriage value needs to go; we are finally going from class A of people to class B of people. We could, however, then put in some mitigation for those who are having a loss, which would be usual if they had not done something materially wrong. What do you think about that?

James Vitali: I think that is where the dividing line lies between you and Mr Gardiner, and perhaps you and I and Mr Gardiner.

[Richard Fuller]

Oh, it is much wider than that.

James Vitali: Indeed. I think a balancing act needs to be struck in this Bill between spreading genuine property rights more widely and compensating those existing freeholders. If you seek to diffuse property ownership, but in the process undermine or dilute property rights, you are undermining the thing that you are trying to spread more evenly. That is a technical question for the way that you finesse this Bill, but I do not think it is a substantive issue with the desire to give leaseholders greater control and rights over their property.

[Richard Fuller]

Exactly.

[Barry Gardiner]

Q On the point of marriage value, Mr Vitali, let us go back to free market principles. You and I would agree that a free market is one in which properties are sold between a willing seller and a willing buyer—would you not?

James Vitali indicated assent.

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[Matthew Pennycook]

That is all extremely helpful. Thank you very much.

[Richard Fuller]

Q Our previous witness, Mr Vitali, talked about potential concerns about the effect of regulation on people’s understanding of property rights. Do you have any significant concerns about how the Bill affects property rights? If you do, what should we do about them?

Philip Rainey: In a sense, that is a conceptual question.

[Richard Fuller]

You are a lawyer.

Philip Rainey: Yes, and one tends to avoid the philosophical points. Clearly, from a legal perspective the Bill interferes in an extremely significant way with property rights. Whether that is the right thing to do is a value judgment.

One thing that is sometimes overlooked—I am not defending the leasehold system; I am on record as being in favour of commonhold, which is inherently a more satisfactory system for holding flats—is that a lot of people will be disappointed when commonhold comes in. They will still find that they are not allowed to remove the supporting walls in their flat or to have a noisy party on a Friday night, because their neighbours do not want that. A lot of the things you find in leases and the restrictions when living in flats are because, if you live communally in a block of flats, you owe duties to your neighbours. There are responsibilities, in communal living, that do not apply if you live in a small house in a field, 500 yards from your neighbours. The restrictions in the leasehold system are not as unique to leasehold as you might think; I would suggest otherwise. To go back to your basic point, clearly the Bill alters property rights. It is a value judgment as to whether that is the right thing to do.

Philip Freedman: I have heard a number of cases where the property industry is concerned about the transfer of value that will be effected by capping ground rents, removing marriage value and so on, in relation not just to the benefit to leaseholders but to the burden on those landlords that are pension funds and other organisations that will find that they are deprived of rental income that they have banked on and have thought will be reliable income over many years. They bought leases that were perfectly lawful, were not, so far as one can tell, entered into under any mis-selling, and the provisions for the ground rent are not necessarily unconscionable; the ground rents were invested in in good faith.

We must not lose sight of the fact that if there are winners, there are always losers. Some provisions of the Bill, which are fine, are to say that if the tenants are enfranchising, they do not have to buy the commercial bits of the building. Those can be left with the landlord under a leaseback, and therefore the value remains with the landlord. Both parties win: the landlord keeps the value and the tenants do not have to pay as much money. But where you are transferring value, there is always a loser, and there are lots of investors who appear to have bought in good faith and were not expecting retrospective legislation. Lawyers always do not like retrospective legislation. It is up to Parliament to decide whether the social benefit is sufficient to outweigh the concern about pension funds, and so on, that have invested in ground rents. The Law Society does not take sides between landlords and tenants, or different types of clients. We just want to make sure that Parliament focuses on the issue and makes the decision in the public interest.

[Barry Gardiner]

Q Mr Rainey, first, thank you for what you said about the preferability of commonhold to leasehold. Is it your view, therefore, that it would be good if the Bill were to make all new flats that are constructed leasehold with a share of freehold, as a staging post, in effect?

Philip Rainey: Yes. In a sense, that is the downside. It is possible to create what you might call commonhold-lite. It is a leasehold system—it is so encrusted with restrictions and requirements, although you own the freehold, that it is very similar. It would be only a staging post, because one of the problems with the current system is that it creates a “them and us” situation. You see it even when tenants own the freehold. Somehow they still think, “Well, it’s ‘my’ lease and it’s ‘them’”, which is them under another hat as the freeholder. Commonhold should eliminate that.

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[Barry Gardiner]

Q Mr Spearman, since we have limited time, let me turn to what you are saying to the members of the public. You have engaged in a number of polling operations. You have told people that only 1 in 4 people in a block would be able to agree with each other about how to manage that block. The implication is that many leaseholders do not want to take on the burden of management and, actually, some of them are incapable of taking on that burden of management—almost as if you are providing them with this wonderful service that they would not want to get rid of. But the figure of 1 in 4 people that you quoted in your survey was 1 in 4 people in the United Kingdom, and not leaseholders at all, was it not? It included people in Scotland who are not involved in the provisions of leasehold in England and Wales. So you went out to people who had no connection as leaseholders and surveyed them, and then claimed that was an argument.

[Richard Fuller]

On a point of order, Dame Caroline. I am wondering whether my colleague, Mr Gardiner, is getting to a question rather than just expressing a view.

[Barry Gardiner]

I just did, but you interrupted.

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[The Chair]

Order. We have time for only one more question, Barry. Can I move on to Richard Fuller, please?

[Richard Fuller]

Q Perhaps Mr Gardiner will call a point of order on me. I have been talking about this transfer of value. There are non-monetised here, but there is £1.9 billion of transfer. I think we have accepted from previous witnesses of all types that it is a political decision, but it is essentially taking from group A to group B. You just, I think, said there were ground rents that are not enumerated here, and I think you said they were not £1.9 billion, but £29 billion or £30 billion. Could you elaborate on that?

Jack Spearman: This is a bit of an issue we have with the way the impact assessments have worked, because the impact assessment for the leasehold and freehold Bill did not take consideration of the consultation impact assessment that came out on ground rent. They are not working together. That is part of the issue of you not being able to scrutinise the impact assessment within the ground rent consultation, where the Secretary of State is on record as saying he wants a peppercorn ground rent; in that it says the impact would be £27.7 billion. If you add that to the £3.2 billion in the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Bill impact assessment, that is where you get to.

[Richard Fuller]

Q So just to be clear, as the Committee considers this Bill, including what may come from subsequent secondary legislation, it is not £1.9 billion of transfer, but £1.9 billion plus £28 billion. Is that fair? So we need to bring it all in, not just—

Jack Spearman: I think it is a bit more, actually. Is it not £3.17 billion in this one?

[Richard Fuller]

Exactly—you have added them all up. I just did the first section.

Jack Spearman: Indeed.

[Richard Fuller]

But a bit like an iceberg, the transfer of wealth from group A to group B is somewhere else; it is not here in the impact assessment.

Jack Spearman: Agreed. Also, in terms of the people it is being transferred to and from, remember that while a lot of leaseholders are homeowners, there are also a lot of buy-to-let investors in that group—over 50% in our membership, of leaseholders are buy-to-let investors. That is a transfer from business to business being overseen by this Bill.

[Richard Fuller]

Very good. Does anyone else want to come in? I had another question, unless we have no more time.

[The Chair]

We have until half-past three.

[Richard Fuller]

Q Can I ask you about the discount rates that are used? We have the deferment rate and the capitalisation rate. Those will be determined in secondary legislation as well. Do you have any thoughts about what guidance should be given to the Minister about how those should be set?

Jack Spearman: Yes. It is very important that, at the very least, the primary legislation sets out what reference the Minister should look to—something dynamic would be helpful, so that you don’t have these ridiculously long periods of time where one party is out or in. I think people have talked about looking at some long-term ideas, whether that is the National Loans Fund rate or the longest Treasury gilt. You obviously don’t want to make it too dynamic, so that it is always shifting around, but I think it should clearly reflect market value. It should be done on a no-act principle. It should be enabled to be dynamic so that, as I said, you do not have this problem of the Secretary of State having to arbitrarily change it—it should be able to move with the market. It should be something that is available for reference.

[The Chair]

Thank you. That brings us to the end of that session. I thank our witness on behalf of the Committee.

Examination of Witness

Giles Grover gave evidence.