Remembrance and Veterans

Richard Foord Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

I would like to talk about an issue that affects a small number of British families and veterans: the nuclear test issue in relation to Christmas Island.

For Stephen Greenwood, a constituent of mine from Cullompton, the issue affects him personally. His late father served in the Royal Air Force and was one of many servicemen sent to Christmas Island in the late 1950s under Operation Grapple. Those tests, designed to develop the UK’s nuclear weapons capabilities, subjected military personnel to dangerous levels of radiation, with little recognition of, or concern for, the long-term consequences. Stephen’s father shared with him an abiding, vivid memory of seeing the bones of his fingers as he shielded his eyes from the nuclear detonations—the disbelief as the flash from the detonations illuminated those bones. Like so many, he later suffered from cancer. 

The impact did not stop there. The children of deceased servicemen experienced stark health disparities. Stephen’s siblings who were born before their father was exposed to the detonation experienced good health, but those who were born afterwards experienced poor health. This is a pattern that Stephen has seen not just in his own family, but in the families of veterans he has since encountered.

In the run-up to the election, the previous Government went so far as to make sure that a medal was cast to recognise the servicepeople who were involved in Operation Grapple. In opposition, Labour suggested that they could go further. The veterans I have talked to—for example, those in the Sidmouth branch of the Royal British Legion—feel that the Government need to go further. They would like an annual remembrance event, such as the one I attended in Sidmouth on 31 August, to honour the service of the dwindling number of veterans who saw the nuclear detonations in the Pacific in the 1950s. Additionally, they are advocating for compensation for veterans who have suffered health issues due to exposure to radiation. The families of veterans such as Stephen’s late father have endured the legacy of Christmas Island and cannot afford to wait another decade. They are demanding action in this Parliament.

Ukraine

Richard Foord Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

I can indeed do so. I came away from the G7 meeting in Naples and from the meeting of NATO Defence Ministers in Brussels reinforced in my view that there is a determination not just to stand with Ukraine now, but to do so for as long as it takes. I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the communiqué from both meetings. I think he will be encouraged, as I was, by the degree of unanimity and determination not to allow Putin to believe that, if he holds out, the west will give up.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

I welcome the announcement of the acceleration loan scheme. I also welcome the timing; the British Government are not simply waiting to see the outcome of the US presidential election, as some other Governments are doing. Will the Defence Secretary repeat the assurance he gave in the House last week that, regardless of US policy, military aid to Ukraine from European NATO nations will not decrease next year?

[John Healey]

We are determined, on the contrary, to maintain and step up the military aid required from the UK. I found a similar determination from Defence Ministers across the NATO nations. We recognise that the Ukrainians are not only mounting this fight for themselves, but waging it on behalf of us all and the values that we share with them.

Afghan Special Forces Relocation Review

Richard Foord Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Luke Pollard]

I intend, at the conclusion of the Triples review, to be able to publish a full “lessons learned” summary looking at where we need to get to, but there are a number of lessons. One point that has been reinforced in my mind is that there is enormous support for those who served alongside our troops, but we did not see record keeping that matched that type of personal connection and personal thanks for those who served. That is why, as part of this work, we have instructed that there should be changes in processes within the Ministry of Defence—and beyond that, in how we work with other Departments and parts of HMG—to ensure that in future when we have a direct relationship with people, that information is properly stored and accessible.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

The Minister talks about the parallel independent inquiry on the deployment of special forces to Afghanistan between 2010 and 2013. Former members of UK special forces told the BBC’s “Panorama” earlier this year that they believed their veto powers on applications by Afghans claiming to have served with the Triples represented a conflict of interest. This conflict of interest might not have arisen had there been good parliamentary oversight of UK special forces. Will the Government consider extending the scrutiny powers of the Intelligence and Security Committee so that it has oversight of UK special forces?

Oral Answers to Questions

Richard Foord Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[John Healey]

The hon. Member and I share common cause in recognising the role that Scottish workers and Scottish industry play not just in the security of our own United Kingdom, but through the contribution we make to supporting Ukraine in its fight. I have been proud to visit workers in some of the Scottish sites. Our defence industrial strategy, as we develop it in the months ahead, will reinforce the essential role that Scotland plays in our security, and in the UK economy.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

Last week, President Zelensky of Ukraine met with German Chancellor Scholz. Zelensky said:

“For us, it is very important that aid does not decrease next year.”

It is welcome that the Foreign Secretary will meet with EU27 Ministers later to discuss the war in Ukraine, but will the EU27 plus the UK be in a position to assure Zelensky that military aid to Ukraine will not decrease next year, regardless of what happens in the presidential election next month?

[John Healey]

Yes, they will.

Ukraine

Richard Foord Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I wish to add to the tributes that others have paid to Lieutenant Rhodri Leyshon. He served with the Commando Helicopter Force in 846 Naval Air Squadron at Yeovilton. The Royal Navy said that Rhodri was one of their

“most trusted and highly capable aircraft captains and instructors”.

Our thoughts are with his family.

I am reminded of the saying “train hard, fight easy”. It is attributed to the 18th-century Russian commander Field Marshal Suvorov, but the Russians are not practising that today, sending to the front Russians who have had as little as two weeks’ training. By contrast, the training that has been provided under Operation Interflex has enabled Ukrainian troops to hold ground and exploit Russian weaknesses. The Liberal Democrats welcome the announcement last week at the Ukraine Defence Contact Group that Operation Interflex will continue until the end of 2025. Indeed, we have welcomed announcements on Ukraine from the current Government and the previous Government, and we would not want to see any party political capital sought from the solid British support for Ukraine.

We have seen some failures by the British state in recent years to plan for contingencies, whether post-invasion planning for Iraq or for a non-flu pandemic. We have discovered that sometimes in the British state there is a little bit of “hope for the best”.

On support for Ukraine by the United States, what contingency planning is being undertaken for an uplift in our support for Ukraine—and by other states in the Ukraine Defence Contact Group—in the event that a gap opens up with a US Administration under Trump and Vance?

[John Healey]

I am sure that Lieutenant Leyshon’s family will appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments.

The outcome of the US presidential election will be determined by the American people. This country has a deep relationship with the US: it is our most important security ally, and we are its most important intelligence ally. The relationship goes back decades and has survived the ups and downs of the political cycles on both sides of the Atlantic. We are determined that it will do so again, whatever the result of the election.

On the question of training, I cannot match the hon. Gentleman in citing 18th-century military figures, but I can say that the mismatch between the level of training that we and allies are trying to provide to Ukrainian troops is part of the attempt to counter the outmatch in numbers on the Russian side. I can confirm to the House that that includes not just the 45,000 Ukrainian troops trained so far under Operation Interflex since Putin’s invasion, but the 93 F-16 pilots trained in English and technical matters as well as flying, and almost 1,000 Ukrainian marines trained by the UK, working with allies. That is why I was able to make the announcement last week at Ramstein that this important UK training effort, linked into the new NATO arrangements, will be part of the way that we equip Ukraine forces for the future to be better prepared and trained than their Russian adversaries.

Oral Answers to Questions

Richard Foord Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Leo Docherty]

We take the threat Iran poses very seriously. We note that it uses its malign influence to continue to destabilise the middle east through its pernicious use of proxies. Our judgment is that that capability and intent remains. Our role in deterrence regionally is hugely important. I was very pleased recently to visit the magnificent sailors of the Royal Navy stationed in Bahrain. I reiterated that point about the fantastic deterrent effect they were having when I had a highly productive interview with the British Forces Broadcasting Service. You will know, Mr Speaker, if you listen to BFBS as I do, that that point cannot be over-made. We are grateful for the magnificent activities of our Royal Navy in the Gulf, which are keeping us all safe.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

As the Minister has said, Operation Shader was originally put together in 2014 to defeat the Sunni Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. The Liberal Democrats are very supportive of the way in which the Royal Air Force was used last month to help to intercept the Iranian bombardment of Israel, but the last parliamentary vote on Operation Shader was held in 2014, when Members were approving resources and deployments of UK armed forces to defeat ISIL. Will the Minister subject any operation that is designed to deter Iranian attacks to a debate and a vote?

[Leo Docherty]

It seems to me to be the settled view that Operation Shader is a good thing, and I do not sense any appetite for a parliamentary debate among colleagues across the Benches in this House. I should put it on record that I was very pleased to meet the men and women of the Expeditionary Air Wing in Romania, who have contributed so bravely over recent months to magnificent military effect through that operation.

Defence

Richard Foord Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

I am pleased to reassure my right hon. Friend from this Front Bench that no such delay would be countenanced. Just in the last few weeks we have issued the defence nuclear enterprise Command Paper—[Interruption.] I thought the Opposition Front Bench knew that there was a coalition Government, but perhaps they missed it. Perhaps they also missed the point that my right hon. Friend was making.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way, and I can offer him the assurance that the Liberal Democrats embrace the continuous at-sea deterrent with four submarines. What is more, the strategic environment in which we were operating in 2010 was very different from that which we see today: the Liberal Democrats made the right call then, and we have made the right call now.

[Grant Shapps]

You heard it here first, Madam Deputy Speaker. I warmly welcome that commitment, which was not available under the then coalition Government. It is an important moment, and I welcome that commitment from the hon. Gentleman, as I welcome it from Labour.

I gently remind the House that 11 Opposition Front Benchers have voted against the deterrent in their time here, including three members of the current shadow Cabinet, including the shadow Foreign Secretary, the shadow Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Secretary, and the shadow Deputy Prime Minister. The House is right to ask, and the country will want to know, whether that commitment is as firm as we now hear it is from the Liberal Democrats. It will also want to know, even if the commitment is said to be firm, whether Labour is prepared to fund it. Again, it comes back to the 2.5%.

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

I am glad to be in the Chamber for this debate. It is an important debate; those of us on the Defence Committee would probably say that we do not have them often enough.

I wanted to pick up on a point made by the right hon. Members—my right hon. Friends, I hope—for Warley (John Spellar) and for North Durham (Mr Jones) about the reduction in defence spend, and the discussion we had at the Select Committee recently. As is our duty as a Committee, we challenged the Secretary of State on expenditure, and I wanted to pinpoint one specific issue, which relates to people—at least for us on the SNP Benches, people are the bedrock of a defence policy and posture—and to concerns about defence infrastructure and security, especially for those of us who live around nuclear defence infrastructure. We might not necessarily agree with it, but it is there, so we would hope it is secure at all times.

Coming back to the point that my right hon. Friends made, I wanted to look at some specific concerns about the Ministry of Defence police budget. In 2010-2011, the defence police budget was £154.8 million, equating to £226.78 million today when adjusted for inflation. Right hon. and hon. Members may correct me if I am wrong, but I think there was a Labour Government at that point. However, the budget in 2022-23 was £161.3 million. Leading back to the question posed at the Committee, that is a real-terms reduction of about £65.5 million in the defence police infrastructure over the past 12 years. That is something that Ministers might want to come back to later on.

The shadow Defence Secretary, the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), made some comments about the £75 billion, and I share his concern. Like me, he understands that the assumption from the Government is based on a baseline of spend, as a percentage of GDP, that is frozen in cash terms, so without borrowing or extra debt, it comes nowhere near £75 billion. I wish the Government well on that point.

I would maybe want to have a wee bit more of a conciliatory approach to this. There will be at least some consistency from the SNP Benches, which I am sure the Minister will appreciate. Although he and I have different views on the nuclear deterrent, we are at least consistent. It was quite interesting to see someone else getting taken over the barrel for that—it makes a change. On the commitment to Ukraine, the Minister can take it from the SNP that, whoever the Government happen to be this year or next year, say, we will also be steadfast on the support for Ukraine. The right to defend national territory, and the right to national self-determination, are elements of human dignity for any modern nation state and alliance. As I said, the gist of my remarks is in three things: people, place and our partnerships.

Let us talk about the ordinary ranks. That is a term that I find quite problematic. I come from a services family. My brother was a sergeant, and my nephew is in the forces as well—in the “ordinary ranks”. There is really nothing ordinary in serving.

[Richard Foord]

I think the term is “other ranks.”

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

Let me come to that in a second, but in common parlance, I think they are always called the “ordinary ranks”—[Interruption.] The Minister may want to listen for a wee second. Whether it is “other” or “ordinary”, that type of terminology says nothing about the men and women who served in Iraq, such as my brother; in Afghanistan; out in the Red sea, no matter what happens there—and there is concern that there might be mission creep—or in other deployments such as the joint expeditionary force in Estonia, which I know, as the co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Estonia, that the Estonian Government welcome.

Those ranks deserve more from us—not just from the Government and the official Opposition, but from all of us as parliamentarians. They deserve it that we take them more seriously in the structure of how we support and pay them, and in their entire terms and conditions. I know that there is probably profound disagreement about my approach, which would be an armed services representative body. Although I am saddened that the official Opposition changed their position, if they form the next Government, the SNP would support their new approach, which we think is at least a step in the right direction.

However, I do not think that having a Government appointee represent the armed forces personnel is the right step forward, because the lived experience of members of the armed forces who have been on the frontline needs to form part of an understanding, as with any engagement on terms and conditions with a trade union, for example—although an armed forces representative body from this party is not a trade union and does not have the right to strike our proposals. We have to say to those ranks that we believe they can come together as a collective and have critical engagement with Government and, more importantly, with Parliament more broadly. We need to have that discussion with them; they need to be part of defence policy and posture. They are people we want to send to the frontline to fire a gun or a missile, but technically we are saying to them that we do not believe they have the capability of coming together to discuss and debate collectively their terms and conditions. I find that slightly bizarre.

If we do not engage with those ranks in a more robust fashion, as equals, we will go around a consistent revolving door of reports, as we have seen for years in Committees, especially the Defence Committee. I am mindful of the report produced by the Women in the Armed Forces Sub-Committee—I intimated that I would mention them—which was chaired by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton), who is not here today. That report was profound. Do I think that if we do not have real engagement with the frontline, there will be substantial change? I have grave concerns that there will not be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (James Gray), and I pay tribute to him as the chair and lead of the all-party parliamentary group for the armed forces. He hosts lots of highly experienced, very senior strategic thinkers from the armed forces as part of that APPG.

I welcome this opportunity to debate UK defence policy at greater length. I have been struck that so far many of the speeches have been about defence capability and equipment, but I was particularly impressed by the comments about the strategic environment. The most senior military personnel in our kingdom talk about strategy in terms of ends, ways and means. It would be a mistake to spend all our time talking about means when they expect the Government and Parliament also to think about ways and particularly ends—the end state that the UK is seeking to bring about. I will focus my remarks more on the strategic environment and the wider security context, and towards the end I will talk a bit about cuts to the regular Army. I will also comment on the suggestions that have been knocking around recently about a citizens army.

I was impressed by the remarks of the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) about the strategic environment. I am glad that in the west we seek to take the peace dividend when we think it is available to us. One thing that stands out about democracies is that when the security environment allows, we try to invest in health and education. It is absolutely appropriate to champion that, but we should also be realistic enough to recognise when times do not allow for that.

We have talked today about continuous at-sea deterrents and the role of the coalition Government in having a Trident alternatives review, which is not to be regretted. In the security context of the time, when Obama was talking about a reset button and we signed a strategic arms reduction treaty with Russia—New START—it was appropriate to be thinking along the same lines as in the 1990s, when the west and the Soviet Union were mutually trying to reduce the threats from our nuclear weapons. As it happens, the events from 2014 onwards plainly proved that we absolutely need to be as strong as possible.

The Prime Minister’s remarks a fortnight ago were interesting. He talked about a new defence partnership between the UK and Germany. I welcomed the fact that he made the announcement in Berlin and the idea that we should have greater interoperability with our allies, but he then fell into this business of talking about putting the defence industry on to a “war footing”. Indeed, that chimed with the Defence Secretary’s statement that we are entering a “pre-war era”. When we throw such remarks around, we need to qualify what we mean, because we know that our adversaries listen carefully to what we say. We do not need belligerent tones and a mismatch between our rhetoric and our capability; instead, we should speak quietly while making ourselves as strong as possible. That is of course what the armed forces are for. “Bello te praepares” was the motto of the Army training regiment when I was there as a platoon commander. We were very much about preparing for war, but we were doing it quietly. It would be sensible for the Defence Secretary to make those preparations as ardently as possible but not in a showy fashion.

If the Defence Secretary’s motivation is genuinely to send a message to Ukraine that we are in this for the long haul and that there is certainty, he will not want to make this a party political issue or suggest that Opposition parties are somehow less supportive of Ukraine. He asked earlier whether we would match the £500 million uplift per year for Ukraine. Yes—we recognise the characterisation of Russia’s westward expansion as a threat to all Europe, so Ukraine can be assured that, regardless of a change of Government later this year, it will continue to receive £3 billion in support from the UK.

The Foreign Secretary said last week, when he was in Ukraine, that Ukraine is free to use long-range Storm Shadow missiles over the border into Russia. I am surprised that that has not come up in our discussion today. That may be because such things should not be done on the Floor of the House, and I very much welcomed the approach of the former Defence Secretary, who would share with Opposition parties, well in advance of the debate, the urgent question or the statement, what he intended to say through his special adviser. That was a way to have such conversations not on the Floor of the House or in such a public fashion. As it is, the strategic communications people in NATO will now have to work all the harder to counter the false narratives and lies that Russia pumps out about Ukraine somehow being a threat to the Russian people, or even Russia being threatened by NATO itself.

From an operational standpoint, that use of missiles makes good sense. Clearly, main supply routes, arms dumps and fuel depots will now be brought within range, but we should remember that the centre of gravity here is the Russian people and their willingness to fight. We know that the USSR withdrew from Afghanistan after 15,000 Soviet soldiers were killed. To encourage Russians not to sign up, we need to persuade them that the state of Russia is not threatened by Ukraine or, indeed, by NATO.

On the cuts to the regular Army, I was interested by the remarks of the right hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) about recruitment and consent. I would point to the issue of consent when we talk about parliamentary approval of military action. I do not believe that Governments were merely seeking top cover when they had a debate in Parliament on the intervention in Iraq in 2003 or on the intervention in Syria in 2013. Rather, they were genuinely seeking to engage with us as representatives of the people to try to get support.

Finally, I come to a proposal that was leaked to a journalist, David Parsley, at the i a couple of weeks ago about a 20,000-strong volunteer force that could potentially train a 200,000-strong volunteer Army. I do not expect the Minister to comment on that or any other leak, but if that is the response from the Government to the pressure they have been under on cuts to the Army, it would not be a sensible approach. The plan talks about an annual spend of some £500 per recruit in training allowances per year for the initial 20,000 ex-forces personnel during peacetime. That amount would not go very far. Service personnel would suppose that the MOD was once again budgeting to withhold blank rounds in favour of commanders asking trainee soldiers to shout “Bang!” We cannot have an Army on paper that does not exist in reality. We need a regular Army of 82,000. We need to reverse the cuts that we have seen in recent years, and we need to build credible armed forces so that we are strong not only in our rhetoric, but in our capability.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

It is a great privilege to speak in this debate. I am not a Minister—to echo the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (James Gray)—but I am a former serviceman, and I hope to bring some value, as a practitioner, to what we are discussing.

We know that the first duty of any Government is the defence of their people—that is quite clear—so the need to keep people safe is non-discretionary. Right now we have war raging across Europe, not too far away, and multiple threats are proliferating right across the globe. Given that the international landscape now is probably more dangerous, unstable and incendiary than it has been at any time since world war two, defence spending is absolutely essential. Voters care about their security, and many are nervous about what is happening across the world. Most importantly, it is our duty as politicians to keep them safe.

That is why the Government’s commitment to a defence budget equal to 2.5% of GDP by 2030 is so important, both strategically and politically. As a member of the UN Security Council, the UK’s continued role as a bastion of global rights and democracy can be underpinned only by hard power. It is a reality of history that we may yet be called upon to protect our own security and that of our allies. We know that the Defence Secretary has recently increased military aid to Ukraine, securing an extra £700 million and thereby taking Britain’s total contribution beyond £3 billion—that is a lot of money—so we are doing our bit.

On the 2.5% target, it is extra money, but the issue is what we do with it and how we spend it—that is important—so I advocate for a capability audit right now. The reason I say that is that the extra injection of funds means that we need to work out what we can now do. When I was working at Northwood permanent joint headquarters many years ago, we had this thing called the JOECR—the joint operational estimate of capability and readiness. In my view, with the extra money that we have now, we should be turning all those capabilities that are flashing red to green—in other words, we should plug the capability gaps—and not just on land, at sea and in the air, but in space and cyber. Yes, state-of-the-art platforms are fine, and yes, we must procure weapons that we know can beat our adversaries, but it is also about spending wisely and smartly where necessary.

My second point on the 2.5% is that we need to better operate what we already have so that every part of our lexicon works. We must not rely on the exquisite exclusivity that we have spoken so much about; we must ensure that all our platforms work and can be sustained across the battlespace.

In terms of equipment generally, as one part of capability we need to procure what we need and nothing more. It is about strategic lift as well as exquisite exclusivity. If we do not have the ships—the roll-on roll-off ferries—or the strategic lift, including C-17s and A400Ms, to get equipment and people right across the globe, there is no point having the kit in the first place. It is therefore about enabling expeditionary reach. We cannot put boots on the ground if we cannot get the boots there. Plus, Minister, it is about logistic tail, spares, the supply chain, sustainment, defence contractors, delivery and munitions. We must be careful to ensure that if we buy it, we will be able to use it and then fight it through, and it must be sustainable and enduring.

“Platform” is an interesting word. It means the platform on which a capability sits, but what is put on that platform also matters. I therefore favour a modular approach for future equipment programmes, whereby we can apply different degrees of mobility, firepower and protection, but it is the kit that is bolted on and bolted off that really matters, and that is the battle-winning equipment for me. For me, this is about a commonality of platforms, about spares, about logistics, about interoperability and about cannibalisation. If we run out of something, can we get it? With complex platforms and complex supply chains, we cannot, so let us please go for modular and for commonality.

[Richard Foord]

Is the hon. Member aware of the Supacat range of vehicles, which operate in much the way that he has described?

[James Sunderland]

I am very aware of Supacat. I have visited the company, which is in the hon. Member’s neck of the woods. It is a very impressive British company. Yes, we need to do more to ensure that it produces and builds what we need. Let us work with it a bit more on that. As the hon. Member suggests, this is about fewer variants, an easier supply chain, and not having equipment that is too complex to use or to maintain. That is very important: we should keep it cheap, simple and easy.

Let me say a little about NATO. As we know, it is the only show in town. It is the umbrella for European security in the north Atlantic. It now consists of 32 countries, and that is to be welcomed. It has responded magnificently to Putin’s aggression in Ukraine. It has galvanised the alliance since the invasion, in a way that Putin could not possibly have conceived. In many ways, it is much stronger because of what has happened. Article 5 is the prize for NATO membership. It has defined Putin’s actions in Ukraine, in that so far he has not attacked a NATO country. Why? He is worried about article 5, and that strategic uncertainty underpins our security in Europe.

However, there are issues with NATO. First, only 18 of its 32 member countries are currently committed to 2% of GDP, and that is not enough. In addition, the five non-EU members—the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Turkey and Norway—contribute 80% of the operating budget, which is outrageous, with 96% of the EU effectively reliant on NATO for its security. That is a stark contrast. Europe must therefore become much more responsible for its own security, and that is non-discretionary.

Defence Personnel Data Breach

Richard Foord Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s comments about attribution. MPs and the electoral register have been hacked, and he therefore encourages me to jump to the conclusion at the Dispatch Box that the malign actor is China in this case as well. I am simply unable to do that at this stage. He would expect me to follow due process, but I rather support his view that if attribution is required, it should happen in a timely and speedy manner. I undertake from the Dispatch Box to ensure that that happens in this case, and that we do not have many months or years pass by without it being mentioned.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

The malign actor did not need to access the armed forces payment network to find out the salary of a British private soldier. A quick search of Google—or indeed Baidu—reveals that the salary of a British soldier on completion of initial training is less than £24,000 a year, which is less than the average UK salary of £35,000 a year. Russia is currently paying its soldiers a starting salary of more than 2.5 million roubles for fighting in Ukraine. Will the data breach by the Conservative Government’s contractor shame the UK Government into paying some of our lowest-paid servicepeople a decent salary?

[Grant Shapps]

That was creative, if nothing else. The fact that we paid a nearly 10% pay increase—9.7% last year—to many ranks of our armed forces, and that the Conservative party has committed to spending 2.5% of GDP, which is a pledge I have not heard repeated by the Opposition, rather suggests that we are prepared to do something about pay and retention.

UK Armed Forces in Middle East

Richard Foord Excerpts

Monday 29th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Leo Docherty]

We are clear-eyed in our assessment of Hamas: we regard them as a terrorist organisation that has prosecuted an atrocity. We call on them to lay down their arms and to release the hostages. That is the precondition for any kind of meaningful and sustainable ceasefire.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

The Government have so far resisted having a proper debate and a vote on British military engagement in the middle east this year. The engagement of the British Army in Bosnia in the 1990s started out as being for the purposes of humanitarian aid, but was subject to mission creep as British soldiers were attacked by the warring parties. In 2006, John Reid said:

“We would be perfectly happy to leave in three years’ time without firing one shot”.

Will the Minister assure us that if the Government proposed using British troops on the ground in Gaza, they would first grant this House a debate and a vote on the matter?

[Leo Docherty]

The lessons of Bosnia are interesting, and are not lost on Government Members. The hon. Gentleman should have no doubt that Ministers and the Government will remain fully accountable to this House.

Defence Spending

Richard Foord Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

I thank my hon. and gallant Friend for his comments. He is right to point out the need to be prepared to use the abilities that we have. Ours is one of the only countries with both the global reach and the desire and preparedness to use those abilities, which is why we have ended up defending ships in the Red sea from the Houthis. I can report that a specific incident along those lines has taken place today, with our armed forces in action, and we can be very proud of everything they do for us.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s statement about increased defence spending, although it relates to a time six years hence rather than being specific about funding in the intervening years. Eighteen of the 32 members of NATO are still not spending even 2% of GDP on defence, including France, Spain and Italy. Encouraging them to spend more is not so much about fairness as about persuading sceptics in the United States that North America should remain engaged in Europe. Leverage at the NATO summit in July will come too late. What additional commitments did the Secretary of State and other Ministers obtain from our allies before announcing the 2030 pledge?

[Grant Shapps]

First, I assure the hon. Gentleman that it starts this year—the half a billion pounds is in this year’s budget. We have opted to give that money directly to Ukraine, in addition to the money that we are already gifting it, bringing the total to £3 billion.

Secondly, let me gently say that I do not think I have ever heard Liberal Democrats argue for more defence spending, but I strongly welcome the hon. Gentleman to the cause. I agree with him entirely that 2%—which we ourselves set back in 2014—is no longer the baseline that we should be working to, but I gently point out to him that the reason it has taken some time to replace Trident, and in particular the submarines, is that there was a short period under the coalition when we could not get our Liberal Democrat partners to agree to get on with the job.